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Has anyone seen what’s happening over there on the news? I was reading about this earlier today, and the reports would likely have been from yesterday, but speed the fires are spreading is terrifying! A big problem at that point was people were getting stuck on the narrow roads, panicking and doing what they were old and abandoning their vehicles, unfortunately they were talking their keys, and the vehicles are blocking access to emergency services, particularly firefighters.
The fire department has brought in a huge ‘dozer usually used for firebreaks, but it works well for shifting cars…
This is the current extent of the emergency area, the winds are gusting 80-100mph, the whole of LA is tinder dry, there’s been no significant rain in a year, and most of the trees are eucalyptus and fir, so they burn very quickly, as do most of the houses, being timber construction.
The fire department can’t even think about controlling the situation. So far 70,000 people have been evacuated… 8-0
Looking at the overlay maps on BBC News - they've doubled in size in 3 hours and now approaching Malibu. That's some serious real estate on fire. Trump's already said zero Federal relief because they're all commies or something.
I read that the emergency services have said there's little they can do currently due to the scale of the fires and wind fanning the flames.
Trump’s already said zero Federal relief because they’re all commies or something.
God owning the libs in California, can't be interfering with the will of God?
Thoughts and prayers.
It's not just the fancy pants Hollywood A-lister suburbs on fire...but they are more dramatic for the media
Trump’s already said zero Federal relief because they’re all commies or something.
Code for its a Democrat voting state, so they can go to hell. He really is a shitbag.
There was a guy from the police academy on TV earlier telling people who had to abandon their cars to leave the keys in so they could be moved out of the way if a fire truck needed to get through.
You wouldn’t be referring to Steve Guttenberg, by any chance? Worth noting that he was in Police Academy, not from the Police…
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This is utterly terrifying.
https://twitter.com/gunsnrosesgirl3/status/1877099722256646416
https://twitter.com/HITNEWSWORLD/status/1877094762563469456
Has Trump suggested a plan to have people evacuated to Greenland yet?
I've been watching since 10.30 this morning. Looking at Google street maps. Interesting to watch how it plays out. Topological maps show fingers of isolated land towards the sea around the Palisade area which are cut off from access so will probably surcomb to the fire?
Otherwise my thoughts on this are that there is uncontrolled tree growth in urban areas that accelerates the spread of the fire. Same applies in Greece when the fires start.
Now, I'd cut down all the massive trees that are in urban areas. Removal of any protection orders is key. Fire breaks help.
I've heard that the embers from the fire are traveling several KM which might be the case but I find it unlikely.
How did the fires start? Possibly arson? Maybe natural? Some of the areas that have fire like Van Nuys seem to be in areas surrounded by urbanisation so probably arson?
Anyway, I'm glad that there hadn't been many deaths. The cost of the rebuilds and insurance claims will be into the billions. And a ton of rare film stuff from actors houses will have been destroyed, but that will only add value to the remaining stuff elsewhere?
The footage is truly heartbreaking property absolutely destroyed within minutes.
I want to know how the cost of the rebuild is covered? If everyone in the area has comprehensive insurance which covers the costs then everyone in the world who pays insurance covers the costs.
Now if you have no home insurance and your house burns down, would it be covered by some federal insurance? So your house would be rebuilt at 'no cost'? Therefore you might take the chance of helping the fire take your home and possessions?
Looking at hurricane devistation which also runs into the multi billions of dollars the bill is probably picked up by the government and insurance companies that'll take the money back by some means in the future?
The area is prone to fire, low rain fall in Nov & Dec hasn’t helped.
I used to work for a company that had offices in that area of California, around Malibu, Calabasa, Simi Valley etc. A few times I would be on conference call and a colleague would have to duck out as they’d get news fire was near their homes.
I’ve been out there in December a few times- I was surprised how hot it was for that time of year being used to UK weather.
Not sure if most houses being timber framed adds to the problem?
Latest update to the extent of the three fires so far -
House construction would add to the problem.
There are huge controlled fires taking place in other areas of the United States at the moment. Removal of potential uncontrolled fire risk is key to preventing these events.
I reckon that lots of the trees in private residences are grown to provide privacy and whilst it does the job 99.9% of the time the other 0.1% of the time they are the fuel for the fire which can destroy their house.
As of Wednesday morning, the fire had spread to at least 2,921 acres and was 0% contained, with an expectation that its only going to spread due to the strong Santa Ana wind gusts and low humidity fueling the fires.
A second fire, the Eaton fire, was reported by CalFire on Tuesday evening, and had spread to 2,227 acres by Wednesday morning. It, along with three other reported fires in Los Angeles and Riverside counties, were 0% contained on Wednesday morning.
That’s five fires so far.
With the Santa Ana blowing like it is, and LA being as wide open and flat like it is, this is looking apocalyptic!
Another thing that’s just occurred to me, is that fires like this can become self-perpetuating, they can become a fire-storm, sucking more and more air and oxygen in, like happened during the WW2 mass bombing raids over Germany. There’s a possibility, and this has happened before with other large wildfires recently, where the fires can join up.
Like a lot of American cities, a lot of the housing is timber framed, with thin wood or plastic cladding and often tar-paper shingles; I’ve got photos somewhere that I took in LA, including a couple outside of the Beverly Centre on South La Cienega Blvd, and there was a building being constructed opposite next to a filling station, and it was all timber construction, I guess with LA’s climate they don’t figure they need solid steel framework like we normally use.
I want to know how the cost of the rebuild is covered? If everyone in the area has comprehensive insurance which covers the costs then everyone in the world who pays insurance covers the costs.
There’s entire areas/neighbourhoods that have been refused insurance cover for fire, poor bastards.
I'm not sure what the Californian rules are, but in the fires that happened five years ago on the east coast of Australia building materials were irrelevant in some cases. Rules were basically re-written. Rainforests burnt. The sheer heat melted many things not thought to be at risk. There's firestorms that jump huge distances (kilometres). My wife spoke to someone that said their town was a long way from any forests and it made no difference the place basically combusted. There's also embers that travel in the wind and land in roofing.
The building code here has ratings (Bushfire Attack Level or BAL) that you have to build to based on the fire risk which has to be assessed by a specialist. It goes up to a very frightening FZ - or Flame Zone, where you end up building a near bunker!
Our house has a greater risk on one side - BAL29, and BAL19 on the other.
We made the decision to rebuild our place (after storm damage) to one level above all recommendations. So we have cyclone strength roofing, and also ember and heat protection over the windows, plus toughened glass and fireproof doors. Even with all that if there's a serious fire here, even though I have a fire pump, hoses, water tank, swimming pool, I probably wouldn't hang around to fight it.
uncontrolled tree growth in urban areas
Whilst that might be the case in a few areas of LA, most of the hilly area were once forested...so, typically, its people choosing to build homes in forested areas which is the problem rather than trees that they've planted being problematic.
A lot of the posher/hilly neighborhoods on the outskirts of the urban sprawl are effectively small urban islands within a National Forest...
There’s entire areas/neighbourhoods that have been refused insurance cover for fire, poor bastards.
Listened to a podcast recently with Josh Brolin who has lived in the same LA house since the 70s and they talked about the fire risk. Insurance companies have been quoting annual premiums of hundreds of thousands of dollars for properties that were deemed high risk in the event of one of these fires. Essentially making them uninsurable. Even given LA property values, the premiums are hugely punitive
Now, I’d cut down all the massive trees that are in urban areas
As pointed out, the building has gone into the forest, not the other way round. There may have been better ways to deal with it, but when you've had less than 2mm of rain in your winter season, as reported last night, everywhere is a tinderbox and the slightest spark - accidental or deliberate - will create this kind of nightmare.
Also trees in urban areas reduce the urban temperature? The interlinking of natural processes makes it all so complicated.
Between the fire risks and earthquake risks I'm not sure how viable coastal California is, even in the medium term. It's got a GDP bigger than most countries and is the centre of the tech world, I'm not sure what the consequences of a big quake and resultant fires would be economically, let alone the horrendous human cost.
'I said to myself, dirt doesn't burn': The people rebuilding their homes with earth
How did the fires start? Possibly arson? Maybe natural?
Stupidity, dumped glass, lightening strikes, electrical fires (the electrical infra out there is horrifically bad), grass fires from hot exhausts/brakes. Likelihood of actual arson is pretty remote.
We had a load in the north of Sweden a few years ago. Some of them were so remote that they could *only* be reached by air, or several hours direct through the forest.
Still had people ranting about arson. (I think in the end, they said maybe 2 or 3 out of several dozen that were close to civilisation could be considered arson, in the sense that someone started a BBQ. Despite them being banned for almost the entire summer that year.).
On the LA fires, a friend of mine was flying back yesterday, and doesn't even know what's happened to his place and all his stuff. Even though he's not directly in the affected area (or wasn't the day before yesterday) his place is without power. So everything (servers, security cameras) is dead.
Stupidity, dumped glass, lightening strikes, electrical fires (the electrical infra out there is horrifically bad), grass fires from hot exhausts/brakes. Likelihood of actual arson is pretty remote.
In Oz it's all the above but arson is actually fairly common. In 2023 we had a big fire in the forestry that led to evacuations in our nearby town and it was traced to 4x4 drivers.
When I was in Santa Monica back in 1997 you weren't even allowed to smoke outside the fire risk was so high.
How did the fires start?
I didn't read the details, but the BBC mentioned one started in someone's back garden. I suspect that person is going to be in court for the rest of their natural life, assuming they survived the fire
Insurance companies have been quoting annual premiums of hundreds of thousands of dollars for properties that were deemed high risk in the event of one of these fires. Essentially making them uninsurable.
Climate change is causing insurance losses that the companies themselves can't even begin to get their heads around.
The costs are off the charts and if governments are propping up the industry, it leads to less money overall to build more resilient infrastructure, mitigate the effects as best as possible and cut emissions.
I guess with LA’s climate they don’t figure they need solid steel framework like we normally use.
It's more to do with earthquakes, I think, but nearly all US houses look impressive but are built like old garden sheds.
An old school friend lives out there. Back in November her neighbourhood was hit by wildfires (the Ring camera footage she shared was terrifying). Yesterday she was evacuated from the temporary accommodation they were staying in. She was back 'home' in the UK for Christmas – I bet she wishes she'd stayed 🙁
In seismic areas they use lightweight construction methods for obvious reasons. Light steel frame performs the best but to save money they frequently use timber frame construction. US houses are mostly poorly constructed.
Climate Change is clearly a major factor in the fires but as usual it's a lot more complex than that.
Another major issue is that more houses are being built in areas in the wild land urban interface (WUI). They are literally putting houses in harm's way (like we build on flood plains) but the residents have often not lived in fire prone areas before and don't understand the risk or how to maintain their property including clearing vegetation around their property.
Insurance in California is a basket case and not sustainable in it's current form (Florida is very similar). I'll come back and explain more later
My wifes cousin lives in Altadena, Pasadena. This is where the Eaton fire is. Their street has lost multiple houses but they have been spared. Just sheer luck, nothing more than that. He said it is like a horror movie.
Some of you might know Zap Espinoza, bike media legend. His house is gone. To the ground gone.
nearly all US houses look impressive but are built like old garden sheds
The garden shed in the center of this seems to have done ok.
In Oz it’s all the above but arson is actually fairly common. In 2023 we had a big fire in the forestry that led to evacuations in our nearby town and it was traced to 4×4 drivers.
So actual arson, or just people being dicks with hot bits of metal, cigarette butts and BBQs? (Which i understand gets you an arson charge in some places.)
Must be getting close to The Getty museum......the stuff in there is irreplaceable (yes I know peoples stuff is as well but this is some of the most famous art in the world - like the Louvre burning down)
Getty Museum probably a lot more fire proof than timber framed houses
@hols2 - my guess is that is what they call an "appurtenant structure". Or what we would call someone built a garage in the grounds after the main house was built. Probably built much later thus complying to a more robust building code and made from masonry with fire resistant roof tiles
So actual arson, or just people being dicks with hot bits of metal, cigarette butts and BBQs? (Which i understand gets you an arson charge in some places.)
Actual arson. There's some that are volunteer fire-fighters that do it to be the hero... But it goes wrong.
Fag butts apparently don't tend to start fires as they don't spark.
When there's high fire risk here we're not supposed to use power tools outside, mowers etc.
This is heartbreaking.
It looks as though many people had no idea that there was a fire coming quickly to engulf their street. Many saved by friends and relatives calling them.
Let's hope it rains pretty soon.
Major snow fall over much of America too.in the last week. I dread to think how Trump will deal with this, he's got to put his people first (but of course he won't).
Climate Change is clearly a major factor in the fires but as usual it’s a lot more complex than that.
Not sure this one is so clear. North California has had above average rainfall this winter, unfortunately it's stayed there whilst the South has had below average
My understanding of climate change is that it will lead to greater extremes of weather, so hotter summers, more severe droughts, but also more extreme rainfall and flooding. You can't connect any single event to global warming though, it's more a case that an increase in the frequency and severity of wildfires will be the result rather than any single fire being a direct consequence.
to save money they frequently use timber frame construction.
Well, 150 years ago they used timber because that's what they had absolutely massive amounts of, thanks to deforestation that would put South American illegal loggers to shame. And of course, because businesses made fortunes logging, they invested it back in logging which made it cheaper still. And the fact everywhere was growing hugely and they needed to build houses fast meant that they used what was available and cheap, and they had the supply chain for. Then, everyone was tooled up and ready to build houses out of wood so it continued. It's not just modern day cost cutting. However, having spoken to people, it's also considered safer to be in a wooden house if you get hit by a tornado. Not sure if it's true but that perception has an impact.
In the UK we robbed most of our forests long ago and our cities grew up sooner so we were forced to find another solution i.e. bricks. The supply chain to provide bricks and the skills to use them sprang up so that's what we continue to use, although there are a lot more timber houses being built here now too.
This is heartbreaking.
Shit happens! Especially when you live in a country which has repeatedly obstructed action on climate change, deined that the problem exists and benefitted from the activities which have caused it. If it wasn't for the fact that it's a load of millionaire celebrities being burned out of their homes it probably wouldn't even be on the news.
It will be interesting to see what Trump says on this as climate change is a major factor, but obviously in his addled mind, that doesn't exist, but that same addled mind will be desperate to comment on it.
It will be interesting to see what Trump says on this as climate change is a major factor, but obviously in his addled mind, that doesn’t exist, but that same addled mind will be desperate to comment on it.
His new best mate will say that everyone needs to buy electric cars and, as an amazing coincidence, he just happens to own a company that makes such things...
I dread to think how Trump will deal with this, he’s got to put his people first (but of course he won’t).
Oh he will.
It's just Californians aren't his people.
Two years ago I caught up with a mate who's a Prof of Ecology at ULPGC. He made the comment, 'if Brazil, China and India don't take their foot of the pedal we'll all be applying to emigrate to Greenland and Iceland'. I thought he was joking.
It will be interesting to see what Trump says on this
I'm guessing something along the lines of it's entirely a radical left governors fault and will do the bare minimum if anything to help
It will be interesting to see what Trump says on this
He was on BBC News a couple of days back. He didnt talk about fires, but was rambling about wind farms and whales. It was scary just how far moved from reality he is about global warming.
I got evacuated from Jasper due to wildfires over the summer, not an experience I'd like to repeat, so I'm watching this with interest/dread.
I’m guessing something along the lines of it’s entirely a radical left governors fault and will do the bare minimum if anything to help
He and Elonia already are. They’re blaming Governor Newsom for not putting in place Donald’s plan for moving lots of water from Northern California to the south, not raking the forest floor, and a whole bunch of other things.
He’s already said there will be no aid offered to California or LA.
He’s such a revolting scumbag.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c5y81zyp1ext
However, having spoken to people, it’s also considered safer to be in a wooden house if you get hit by a tornado. Not sure if it’s true but that perception has an impact.
@molgrips - That is counterintuitive. Tornadoes usually occur in the mid-west and many homes there have a strong masonry room/shelter to hide in during a tornado. I can understand the risk of flying debris from loose bricks but a timber frame house will simply get ripped apart quicker and you're facing a total rebuild rather than fixing a part of the property. Cost is the primary driver for these construction practices
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That is counterintuitive. Tornadoes usually occur in the mid-west and many homes there have a strong masonry room/shelter to hide in during a tornado.
I'm not telling you what happens in tornados, I'm telling you what people have told me when I've brought this up. They might have strong masonry shelters but they are probably heavily built and underground, which your house would not be.
Cost is a factor, but in the same way that cost is a reason why it's not common to build houses out of granite these days. It's perfectly possible but it's just not what people expect, so it looks very expensive compared to what we are used to which is bricks. To Americans, bricks are expensive compared to timber. But you wouldn't complain about not building out of granite as being a 'cost cutting measure'.
However, having spoken to people, it’s also considered safer to be in a wooden house if you get hit by a tornado.
Erm...
And cheaper to rebuild…
The flip side of that is a stronger structure would suffer less damage so could be repaired quicker.
The flip side of that is a stronger structure would suffer less damage so could be repaired quicker.
But in the USA there aren't as many tradesmen with the required skills so it could take longer to find someone to do the repairs (assuming you are talking brick-built versus timber-framed).
Fires like that and a relatively proor performing brick house (from an energy perspective) brick house is still going to get gutted.
building codes in California are evolving to deal with wild fire protection but codes aren't retroactive on an exceptionally well built wood framed home that's been standing for decades.
Shit happens!
You're an arse.
You’re an arse.
They have the resources and wherewithal to rebuild. I'll save my sympathy for the hundreds of thousands of people around the world affected by natural (and non-natural) disasters who don't have that luxury.
If it wasn’t for the fact that it’s a load of millionaire celebrities being burned out of their homes it probably wouldn’t even be on the news.
Well if it was happening in Bangladesh or Brazil I doubt that it would have been given the top TV news billing it has been getting, or the same amount of airtime minutes.
The good news is that billionaires being inconvenienced and forced to sleep in one of their other homes might give the anthropogenic climate change debate a gentle prod.
You’re an arse.
"Lacking in empathy" has too many syllables
They have the resources and wherewithal to rebuild. I’ll save my sympathy for the hundreds of thousands of people around the world affected by natural (and non-natural) disasters who don’t have that luxury.
Oh, I see. There are people in LA who aren't movie stars and millionaires—ordinary folks like you who are losing everything, including their lives.
“Lacking in empathy” has too many syllables
Agreed, and there's a time and place for such sentiment but Dazh has a valid point...
Re: building houses in wood vs brick. Amongst other considerations, there simple aren't enough brick-layers in North America. Even if you preferred to have your house built out of brick, good luck finding anyone with the skills - you'd probably be pushing out build time frames for years rather than weeks...gawd knows what would happen if it was mandated in building codes...
The Palisade fire is in an area surrounded by multiple larger state parks. I'm not sure whether camping is allowed in those specific parks, but campers failing to put out campfires properly is a major cause of other fires...
@10 he either knows that or was too lazy to read beyond 'Hollywood'. Either way you're wasting your time, it's easier to just ignore.
Agreed, and there’s a time and place for such sentiment but Dazh has a valid point…
If it was only the rich that were being affected then maybe, but it's not, so he doesn't.
Reports of looters now.....!
Dazh has a valid point…
no he doesn't, his misanthropic post was crass at best but that's what you get time and time again from him.
It's not just the Hollywood stars homes being burnt, many normal people are suffering too but the media doesn't care about them as they are not deemed newsworthy.
If it was only the rich that were being affected then maybe, but it’s not, so he doesn’t.
Eh? Are you deluding yourself that it isn't headline news outside the US precisely because millionaires/celebrities are affected?
not just the Hollywood stars homes being burnt, many normal people are suffering too
that’s what surprised me the first time I went to that area- you could drive through a fancy residential part, turn a corner and it’s vastly different.
As I mentioned before, 20 years I had work colleagues living there. Not necessarily in the “millionaire” areas but in general suburban neighbourhoods
Either way you’re wasting your time, it’s easier to just ignore.
You are correct, as are other posters. I've said what I need to about his posts and will take this advice. Like many people, I have friends in LA affected by these fires.
I don't think it is receiving very significant coverage in the UK because the homes of billionaires have been destroyed. I think the fact that it affects Americans is what makes this story particularly important. It was always going to be a headline story because of that.
If it was happening across the border in Mexico I am sure that it would still be considered a worthy news item but I very much doubt that it would have been the main news item on yesterday's BBC news, or that it would have been given such extensive airtime - at one point yesterday they appeared to be padding out the story with a lot of not very useful or important information.
How many times does it need to be explained that it is not just billionaires homes?
Several of my colleagues have been evacuated and don't know if they have a home to go back to, 1 of them is wealthy but the others are just regular working people.
his misanthropic post was crass at best but that’s what you get time and time again from him.
There are six billion people in the world and millions die an untimely and grisly death every year or endure suffering that is no fault of their own. Do we get all ‘heartbroken’ and upset about those? No we don’t. My comment was more matter of fact than misanthropic. I wish no ill on anyone who doesn’t deserve it but the reality is that shit does happen. The fact it’s currently happening in a part of the world which thinks it is immune from this reality is just an ironic twist.
Watching the footage on Channel4 news. It doesn’t look real. Such destruction. Feel for everyone hit by this.
I can’t comment on other regular news programmes, but Ch4 News does cover such events when they occur anywhere in the world. There is no good reason to ignore this just because it is California being hit.