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There has definitely been 1 more Angliru summit finish since I rode it in 2019 as I remember watching it and feeling the pain of every pedal stroke (and also wondering how the hell the logistics of getting all the cars and service stuff up and back down would have worked).
Anyone else a bit suspicious of Evenepoals sudden resurgence yesterday?
He sat up on the off day "12 min might as well be 27" I think was the quote.
Cunning really, he's now free to go stage hunting as not a GC threat and after the KOM jersey.
Think ving the merciless lost a few fans yesterday and Rog gained a few. Queen stage on the Angliru today. #pray4Sepp. Hope he can hold on now the gap is down to only 30 seconds.
Did you not hear the reasoning why ?
The news about Nathan Van Hooydonck clearly hit Vingegaard really hard - he described him as his best friend afterwards. I can only imagine the rush of emotion when they were told he was OK at the bottom of the climb. The team would have reigned him in if it was that much of a risk.
I really do want GC Kuss to win though!
Surely what it means is that if Sepp has a bad day - which has been known - there is another JV waiting in the wings. Sepp didn’t lose any time on his external rivals. Seems like a lot of pearl clutching over a fairly logical strategy?
Anyone like to estimate when they will get to the base of Angliru. Would like to pop in and watch it live.
EDIT: Found it (from 4 oclock onwards it would seem)
https://www.lavuelta.es/en/stage-17
I had heard about NvH. Tragic news. I think everyone wants SK to win. He'a a very popular rider. The Domestique who gets their eventual hard-earned time in the spotlight, without the internal team wrestling, is a rare story indeed.
On the Evenepoel thing, I can't abide him, comes across as a pretty selfish character I think.
Competition wise, he's pretty much got no chance of beating JV with the team he's on and he's not in the same league as the likes of Ving, Pog & Rog in a GT. Classics, World's, minor stage races etc, yeah is on a par, but 21 days is a long time to lay it all down on a TT and then expect to be on top form the next day.
It was a very strange final yesterday. Vingo went but nearly everyone sat up and left him to it. Not sure what that was about. Nvh? Fear of today's stage? Not wanting to play with Jumbo?
Result is with Vingo on 30s you have to fancy him today, sorry Sepp.
Anyway, Evenepoel is in the break
I'm going to stick my neck out and say that Jumbo might win the vuelta this year.
Guessing SK will be looking for a new team after today.
Read the room Jumbo! Stop attacking Sepp!
My dislike of Vingagoago grows.
Is the Jumbo team dynamic now the most interesting thing about his vuelta then?
Read the room Jumbo! Stop attacking Sepp!
Post race interviews, he seemed to be pretty accepting if it all saying they'd agreed they can all go for the win. There's no-one else anywhere close!
no gifts in pro cycling (WvA withstanding)
and I doubt Sepp would like the "You only won cos they let you" either.
For sure, but there is a big difference in totally gifting someone a win (as you sometimes see on a stage) and actually attacking a team mate, causing both riders to expend extra energy (or all 3 in this case).
I hope those 2 don’t need quite so much help from Sepp next year in the mountains.
Sepp gained time on all his non-JV rivals. How would things have been better if Jonas and Rogla had waited?
Sean Kelly is absolutely livid.
Sean Kelly is absolutely livid.
how can you tell ? 😂😂😂
My dislike of Vingagoago grows.
But, but, but my dislike of Roglic grows by the minute.
I hope those 2 don’t need quite so much help from Sepp next year in the mountains.
I'd like to see Sepp leave JV for UAE and join up with Pog and screw those two b*******s
How would things have been better if Jonas and Rogla had waited?
Roglic is almost 2 mins behind Sep he could have been allowed to go and win the stage. Vingagoago is closer to sep he should have stayed with him. Roglic is only that far back because he has played the food team mate, he has shelved his ambition so deserve a stage. Vingagoagoagoago seems to want to beat Sep in GC. Landa saved Sep today and even let him take the bonus time with very little attempt at a fight.
Jumbo’s Twitter feed should leave them in no doubt as to how their fans feel about today’s antics.
Jumbo’s Twitter feed should leave them in no doubt as to how their fans feel about today’s antics.
Yep, I think SK has actually played it well. His comments in the interviews were all professional but Twitter is outraged at the antics of Roglic and Vingegaard.
If Rog and V had both won their grand tours solo, without the support of a team they’d probably have a leg to stand on. But the reality is they didn’t. And they definitely didn’t have two key riders in their team joining forces against them.
I find the ‘strongest riders’ argument weak I dare say at stages in both R and V’s GC wins other members of their team were stronger on a given day. 2020 I think sepp pulled Rog to the line instead of leaving him
As pointed out, Rog could have won the stage and V supported Sepp today. Think I’m with Sean Kelly on this one.
I think Adam Blythe said it better, it's a total lack of respect towards the guy who has played a pivotal part in helping them both win several grand tours. That's how they repay him, by dropping him, their own team leader.
Rule 1 smashed to pieces.
Good chance he'll lose the jersey tomorrow if that's anything to go by.
To quote Jonas at the end of the stage, 'I would love to see Sepp to winning this Vuelta A Espana'.
Pretty clear statement, think the Twittersphere needs to unmelt itself.
My heart would like Kuss to win for all the incredible team wofk he's put in over the years though.
To quote Jonas at the end of the stage, ‘I would love to see Sepp to winning this Vuelta A Espana’.
Pretty clear statement, think the Twittersphere needs to unmelt itself.
You took that at face value did you?
You took that at face value did you?
Which face?
I think Adam Blythe said it better, it’s a total lack of respect towards the guy
I didn't really agree with them. I think it was Roglics turn to win a stage and him going away a bit to do that is fine. Vin following was the gut punch to Sep for me. Roglic is pretty far down Vin is very close to red now, why if he wants Sep to win. Absolute bollocks from Vin.
This……
Did Landa even contest third? He seemed a better team-mate to Kuss than Vingegaaaaard, dragged Kuss back up then didn't fight for bonus seconds?
I think it was Roglics turn to win a stage and him going away a bit to do that is fine.
He could have pulled Kuss to the finish and still done that.
Anyway, if that was the team tactic with Jonas staying to help Kuss, it wouldn't be so bad. It was pretty clear from the interviews that tactics are every man for themself, with each of them having their own ambition, and it's not to help Kuss.
Just saw the interviews, PR and JV are so full of it 😂
Jumbo Visma risking turning a massive PR victory into a bit of a PR implosion, "yeah we took it in turns to give Sepp a bit of a kicking whilst saying we would love to see him win" 🙄
Sep might want to get some advice from Greg re duplicitous untrustworthy teammates
I remind you of my previous post. Cycling is a team sport. One in which the new young upstart are might wrest power, but not in this case. Here’s it the team and he dues owed by both GC winners. They could have eased off taken SK up the road and fought for the win at the end. Losing whilst winning is my summary of JV.
BTW Weglius’ book The Domestique is my favourite cycling book. Because it tells us what it’s like to serve not win. Unlike all the other ghost written eulogies to champions.
Perhaps Jeff Jumbo and Jeff Visma (the team owners) will see all the sadness created by today's stage and phone up the DSs and get them to all ride for Sepp from now on.
I don't need the sportspeople I admire to be nice people. I want them to win. I don't want them to soft-pedal .
Of course and JV and PR won all those grand tours on their own didn’t they? It is a team sport with one winner, no other like it.
Perhaps Jeff Jumbo and Jeff Visma (the team owners) will see all the sadness created by today’s stage and phone up the DSs and get them to all ride for Sepp from now on.
I’m sure Ayuso and Co will be hoping for the same thing.
The problem is that Vingegaard is now looking at the very rare Tour-Vuelta double - no-one has done that since Froome in 2017.
I can't decide if he'd still be riding for himself without that but yesterday was, as mentioned earlier in the thread, very much a "losing while winning" moment. They could have crossed the line as a true 1-2-3 and looked amazing doing it but infighting and dropping the race leader doesn't look great.
Of course it'd be fine if Kuss was riding for UAE! 😂
Another mountain stage with summit finish today, actually a double ascent of the same mountain:
[img] https://img.aso.fr/core_app/img-cycling-vue-png/alt-18-ve23/16508/0:0,1765:1093-960-0-70/946a9 [/img]
Just caught up on this....somewhat bizarre for sure... like most people here, i'm sitting scratching my head and thinking WTF... just seriously WTF...
You only have to think back to when Froome and Wiggins were doing the same and Froome went... then "oh yeah, that's not how we play things" and came back. The same for Marc Soler a few years back in his show of grumpiness... It's just not what you do. Attacking and gapping Kuss though when he really needed them most.... strange indeed.
There's way more drama being read into this than there actually is. You can bet they agreed tactics before hand especially as they've been the 3 strongest all race. I bet they agreed 'if it gets to the last and it's just us 3, then whoever just go for it'. If Kuss is 'too nice' to disagree then that's his lookout.
Basically GCN need something to talk about.
Roglic and Vinnegard attacking Kuss with 2km to go was pure treachery. Cycling is a team sport, yet Jumbo clearly has a different view. There was no team yesterday and Kuss got truly ****ed. All they needed to do was ride in 1-2-3, grab the stage win and support Kuss. Without Landa, Kuss would have probably lost the jersey to Vinnegard, yet it was Roglic that attacked... bonkers.
The naive idea that 'the strongest man wins' (which keeps getting rolled out) only applies occasionally BETWEEN teams, and even then teammates have always played a part in this. This isn't BMX racing FFS.
I suspect Jumbo is actually a cult, and the chiefs are now calling in the minions for floggings.
I'd expect Sepp to have some bad days in the mountains in next years Tour...
Roglic and Vinnegard attacking Kuss with 2km to go was pure treachery. Cycling is a team sport, yet Jumbo clearly has a different view. There was no team yesterday and Kuss got truly ****ed.
Yep - remember the day when Froome attacked but Wiggins was unable to go with him and (after a couple of seconds), Froome sat up and went back to him. There was much made of that treachery too although it was more that it was a busy mountain stage, it took a few seconds for the message to be relayed to him and he couldn't hear over the noise but he played the good teammate and went back.
There were a couple of instances with UAE in the Tour when Pogacar cracked where his teammates could easily have ridden off and got themselves a bit higher up the GC, they didn't - they stayed with him right the way.
Roglic won the Giro (with help from Kuss)
Vingegaard won the Tour (with help from Kuss)
Kuss is riding his 3rd GT of the year, he's helped the other two massively in the previous 2 and now they're attacking him in the final couple of km?! That's a bit off, never mind all this "strongest rider" stuff.
From a layperson/spectators point of view, it just seemed off that both of them went on the attack. One of them could've stayed with Kuss, the other winning the stage.
It'll be interesting to see if Kuss is tempted by any other teams making offers to him. He's clearly a contender given the right circumstances.
As I see it, it can only go one of two ways today:
1. Roger and Vinegar support Kuss to win the Vuelta
2. Roger and Vinegar go all in and knock ten bells out of each other for the win
Gonna be interesting either way... but if it's #2 then Jumbo and the winner will have to answer a lot of difficult questions, for some time ahead.
Don't really get the moaning about JV. I'm no fan of Vingegaard and would love Kuss to win but if Roglic and Vingegaard held back and turned it into a procession for Kuss we'd all be moaning about how boring it is. At least this way there's a race going on. And besides, I'm not really sure they're actually attacking each other, more likely they're trying to make it look like that to address any accusations of JV being too dominant and killing the race.
As JV and PR were riding towards the line I did have a moment where I thought that whilst it looks pretty bad for them to be attacking their own team-mate, it would be pretty cool of the team to tell them they can race each other and I started to look forward to the sprint between the two in front. But they didn't do that, so it seemed more like tactical indecision from the team.
Gonna be interesting either way… but if it’s #2 then Jumbo and the winner will have to answer a lot of difficult questions, for some time ahead.
For the team and the sponsors, winning all three GT in a year with three different riders is unprecedented. That would be an absolutely spectacular achievement - even Sky at their most dominant never came remotely close to doing that. I'm not even sure any other team in modern cycling has even tried that..
However - Vingegaard doing the Tour-Vuelta double would also be incredible (it's a very rare thing to do) but I think that would backfire on him dramatically. Froome was (rightly) celebrated for doing it; Vingegaard is already not exactly the most popular Tour winner ever - certainly not at the popularity levels he experienced last year - and attacking his own teammate (who thoroughly deserves to win the Vuelta) just so he could get the double is not really going to help his popularity. It's not very sporting and in cycling, for better or worse, the whole romantic, sporting, respectful side of it plays a big part. You don't attack your rival when he's down (as Vingegaard proved when he sat up and waited for Pogacar who'd slid out on the descent on Stage 18 of the 2022 Tour), you also don't attack your own teammate.
I think there must have been some choice words in the Jumbo V bus last night.
From Cycling News
Sepp Kuss spoke briefly before the stage start.
"I am in this position because I deserve it," the American told television before the roll out.
"I deserve the support of the team. I'm not someone who often demands a lot, but I have learned that you have to stand up for yourself every now and then."
Put yourself in the mind of a bike racer who is only 8 seconds down on 1st place overall towards the end of a Grand Tour and that you're clearly the stronger rider than the person in the red jersey.
What would you honestly do?
Scenario: You're at work, worked effing hard all year, been offered the promotion that you want and deserve but because someone nice guy in your team is also interested you withdraw your request for promotion and let them have it instead. Hmm.
In my mind if Vinog doesn't attack Kuss today then it'll be one of the biggest gestures sport has ever seen.
Roglic and Vinnegard attacking Kuss with 2km to go was pure treachery.
But the team has said that everyone concerned understood that on the stage it was everyone for themselves. Even SK at the end said as much, and from Jumbo Visma's POV Who cares? It's a toss up between Sepp and Jonas, and they can sort that out between themselves where it should be sorted out: On the road. If they came into the Vuelta with the plan that the team would do everything they could to make sure Sepp gets the win and said so publicly, then yep: treachery, but they didn't so it's not. Sepp has said that he doesn't want the win handed to him, and wants to know that he's won it under his own efforts.
The whole thing makes for great telly fo'shure, but the people that it concerns seem content (Jonas and Sepp) so why not let them get on with it?
What would you honestly do?
Scenario: You’re at work, worked effing hard all year, been offered the promotion that you want and deserve but because someone nice guy in your team is also interested you withdraw your request for promotion and let them have it instead. Hmm.
Or. You are working in a team, and your team is successful thanks to everyone involved. Your deputy is particularly useful & you wouldn't have succeeded without them. As a result of this you get promotion. Later on, your deputy is in a position to succeed & get promoted. You try to step in & get that promotion as well. Nice eh?
Put yourself in the mind of a bike racer who is only 8 seconds down on 1st place overall towards the end of a Grand Tour and that you’re clearly the stronger rider than the person in the red jersey.
What would you honestly do?
I've won the Tour. Twice. I have no need to win any other event ever and have already got the promotion and massive pay rise. Keeping my key staff happy and motivated to help me win more Tours against the best rider in the world with quite frankly an insane team around him next year would be my priority.
There's a reason UAE have everyone trying to race for them and it's the fact Pog will have your back all the time.
Imnotverygood - thank you, you've 100% made the point I was getting at. If Vinog gives this up to his deputy today then it's a historic sporting gesture / 'promotion'.
historic sporting gesture
It's only the Vuelta.
From a single day race perspective it's on a par with Gent-Wevelgem.
Imnotverygood – thank you, you’ve 100% made the point I was getting at. If Vinog gives this up to his deputy today then it’s a historic sporting gesture / ‘promotion’
I think I’d classify it as what any fair minded/ decent human being would do.
I'm not a fan of either Vingegaard or especially Roglic but I think I recall that both were running 1 x front rings and Kuss stuck with a double. If you're in the granny gear on a 1 x and a team mate is on say a 36 x 34 front ring then I MIGHT just possibly believe that with the gradients so steep as they were yesterday that it was just a case of getting to the top in lowest gear without stalling and that led to a gap back to Kuss. However, the rather classless actions and words of Roglic tell you more I suspect.
I hope Evenepoel attacks the break, takes 40 minutes on the peleton, JV domestiques crumble and when Roglic and Vingegaard look to Kuss for help, he flips them the bird.
'It’s only the Vuelta'...wow?!?
'Yeah, don't worry, its only the US Open, not Wimbledon...'.
I think I’d classify it as what any fair minded/ decent human being would do
TBH, If Jumbo Visma have said that they don't mind, and Sepp has said that he wants to win without it being gifted to him, if Jonas doesn't go for the win then he's not really in the right line of work, and frankly if I was Jonas and I could get myself into the record books as one of the few riders to get a double in one year, then honestly; **** Kuss.
Edit: If Jonas says to Sepp, alright dude, I'll help you get the win, then fair play to him, but if both riders are content with mano-et-mano, best man on the day wins, then also fair play to both of them
Has the nice guy in my office been bursting his balls every day, doing all the jobs which are essential but I can’t be arsed doing, and up until this point basically enabling me to be the best I can possibly be
and if I pass up this promotion I know that realistically I’ll be a shoe in for the next one, and probably many after that. And not only that I’ll have the loyalty of the guy I know I need to keep being successful..
yeah I’d probably step aside that one time..
I think there's the bigger picture too.
TDF 2025, Pog goes on the attack and Vingo looks at Kuss, "can't mate, i got nothing" says Kuss.
Why would you... why would you go all in for the bloke who didn't help you when you needed it.
Id like Kuss to win it, but think its unlikely.
Sepp has stated that he wants this, but in a previous interview he said he wants to just do his thing in the shadows.
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/sepp-kuss-clings-onto-vuelta-a-espana-lead-i-want-my-shot/
Jumbo is full of 'superstars', however after watching the Netflix episode with Jumbo and Wout Van Aert basically got told in not so uncertain terms that he was a super domestique/a helper and not get ideas above his station (paraphrased) when he went off on last years TdF.
JV and PR are the defacto leaders, do they need another one? Likely not. After yesterday, and preceeding days, JV and PR have shown they are the superior riders.
The Jumbo management dont care, they get the Vuelta win. I think they have genuinely said to Kuss - suck it up buttercup - you want it you have to get it. If PR or JV get it they just supercharge their superstar status..... if Kuss gets it, then they 'lose' a domestique (they may do anyway next year) and change team dynamics
For all the stick and hate that Vingo is getting are we really saying that if Remco or Pog were 8 seconds down on a Grand Tour win they'd just suck it up and roll in?
For all the stick and hate that Vingo is getting are we really saying that if Remco or Pog were 8 seconds down on a Grand Tour win they’d just suck it up and roll in?
He should never have got to 8s 😀 This is his wingman, the man who's dragged him up every hill on the planet, pulled back break after break without disucssion, he's dragged his arse up and around stage after stage time and time and time again. Every Tour, every race, when you need a many in the hills, it's Kuss.... he's there.
So you turn him over and beat him to the only victory he's ever likely to get LOL....
‘It’s only the Vuelta’…wow?!?
‘Yeah, don’t worry, its only the US Open, not Wimbledon…’.
"historic sporting gesture"
For all the stick and hate that Vingo is getting are we really saying that if Remco or Pog were 8 seconds down on a Grand Tour win they’d just suck it up and roll in?
Are we 8 seconds behind Sepp or a fictional teammate in a situation where no other team are likely to be able to challenge.
If this was the first or second week of a race it'd be totally different.
Amidst the hyperbole surrounding Sepp Kuss and his teammates effrontery in racing, something forgotten seems to be the clear message that Remco is not a grand tour rider (yet, at least), and the idea that he only didn’t win the Giro cos he was poorly now looks a bit fanciful.
Amidst the hyperbole surrounding Sepp Kuss and his teammates effrontery in racing, something forgotten seems to be the clear message that Remco is not a grand tour rider (yet, at least), and the idea that he only didn’t win the Giro cos he was poorly now looks a bit fanciful.
I've never thought he was/is... in the same way WvA isn't either.. That's not a criticism, it's just a reality of how they're made.
Historic victory :0)
Historic victory :0)
yeah I overstated that :-). More realistically, not in the same level as Vingegaard, Pog et al.
yeah I overstated that :-). More realistically, not in the same level as Vingegaard, Pog et al.
You mean the guy wearing #1 🙂 Get your point comparing to Vingo, although you could say Remco and Pog are similar.
Entertaining though based on today, but I wish he'd stop for Poole, my vg team needs him to score some points!
Sean Kelly really does just need rolling off into retirement. It's terrible listening to him now. Not quite at the stage that Phil Liggett got to but close...
Roglic and Vingegaard are being dutiful teammates today.
Sean Kelly really does just need rolling off into retirement
He is a one man cure for insomnia
Well yes.