Kitchen move /replacement - where to start?

Probably a few ways to start, have you done this before, family or friends have any experience and/or know any builders to talk through with? Where abouts are you in the world, others may know people.

Worth sketching out on paper, ideally to scale, does not have to be a technical drawing, just make a start, you will change your mind, but that is the point to work through ideas before you start, it is more expensive to change once you have started actual construction!

Also how are you going to sequence the works, i.e. how to live/cook with no kitchen. Not sure if you are extending, but check if planning permission is required (for any change to appearance) building reg's i.e. technical aspects will apply, but could be sorted with a good builder, partly the reason to get paperwork in order is to help future when selling etc.

I imagine good builders are booked up in advance and so they want to see that you are serious and have some drawings worked up, for them to spend their time talking and costing up works, this is where a local recommendation comes in, if you don't know anyone.

Bunch of experience on here, so should get some more feedback.

You have watched "grand designs" right?!?

...not going to be prohibitively expensive

Budget for circa £100k. I wish I was joking.

Not sure where you are, but in my recent experience decent trades people have healthy order books so scheduling will be a massive headache. There are a number of different trades involved here too. I'd find a builder that is heavily recommended and let them manage the project. Trying to pull it together your self will be a nightmare. As above, your first step is to get it all down on paper? Are you changing appliances as part of the process? We put in an induction hob to replace a gas one which necessitated a new distribution board.

#edit - timmys is not joking.

I used an A3 graph paper pad and cut outs of the kitchen units we purchased from https://www.diy-kitchens.com/

Think about where you need: electric, gas, water, waste & consider the kitchen design triangle, factor in an external extractor.

Budget for circa £100k. I wish I was joking.

#edit – timmys is not joking.

Where do you live? London? I've had more work than that done for much less!

You have two parts that need infotmed knowledge.

Your bifolds will need a structural engineer if you are enlarging a window.

I think you will need an architect to advise. I think your stumbling block with building control is whether you are changing the safety of the building. Like are you making it less safe during a fire.

You may also have issues like venting an extractor. Which might be both a building control and planning thing.

It doesn't mean you need a full set of architectural drawings etc but you defo need advice. And the advice might be you don't need to worry.

And new electrics and gas (although i'd personally sack off a gas hob, even though they are still the best way to cook) will require qualified tradesmen.

Where are you geographically, I m planning similar and builders will only quote on architects plans.  For the door widening you need a structural engineer as the builder won't want responsibility, a good one anyway.

Cost wise architect was 800, planning permission if needed 250, structural engineer 500.

Any builder who can start immediately I would avoid, round here in nw its c 12 months - 18 months.  It's actually beneficial as my original plan was improved upon over time.

I just cycled round local area and watched similar projects on the go, any decent builder will show you what's going on and rough price.

Where do you live? London? I’ve had more work than that done for much less!

No, not London but is South East. I'm going off it costing me £125k for what sounds like somewhat more work than that, but I would also assume prices have risen since I had it done 3 yrs ago. I may of paid over the odds but it's a bit hard to know when you get several builders round and you only actually ever manage to get a quote from one of them!

My £125k work was for opening up one internal wall (inc. large steel going in), and an external wall for patio doors, moving around a kitchen, utility, and shower room. £125k does sound mental, but that is true all-in cost* and was for a building company that dealt with everything - we had one amazing project manager who dealt with all trades (struct engineers, build, flooring, windows, plumbing (inc new boiler), sparks, woodworking, kitchen fitting, etc)

* when I say all-in, I mean all-in; architects (who's plans we didn't really use in the end - so should probably knock off £3k), building control fees, mortgage fees, all kitchen and bathroom appliances, all the extra shite for new kitchen (pans etc), dining room table chairs, stools for the new kitchen island, TV + speakers, decorating, carpet and flooring, new boiler, new light fitting and switches etc. etc.). A new kitchen etc., costs you a lot more than just the building work and the headline figure of the kitchen.

If i read it right the OP is talking about altering stud walls so non supporting so no steels or structural work needed?  similar with converting a window to a bifold door - the lintel will already be there ( but I would check that one as sometimes in old buildings the window frame actually takes some load)

I moved a kitchen from one room to another and had a stud wall moved in the room the kitchen came from plus that room replastered.  I paid a builder to move the stud wall and do the plastering £3000.  The new kitchen I fitted myself for around £3000.  My guestimate is that if I had paid a builder to do it it would have been £3000 - 5000 labour on top

Maybe 7 years ago so costs will have increased significantly but even in the south £100 000 looks way over the top to me

To the OP - do you know someone who understands this stuff and can take a look?  first step is to define the scope of the work and decide if there is any structural work needed.  then get building warrants / planning permission if needed.  work out where the services need to go and see if you can fit the new sink and cooker before you remove the old one.

do you have a budget to work to?  Can you do the work in stages ie not do the bifolds immediately?  You can either decide what you want to do and then that gives you the budget or decide the budget and that defines the scope of the work

the work I did above I took the cheap but effective options at every point  £50 tap not £500 ( but not the £20 shite taps) etc.  Its astonishing how much you can do for how little money if you control costs tightly

While not necessarily needing an architect to produce a set of drawings you will need structural engineer to calculate load bearings for bifold door opening, building control application will be needed to check and sign of any structural alterations.

It's a tricky one as most builders will only price from a set of detailed drawings, of which your project probably doesn't really need, you could be paying £1500 plus for decent drawings that are worth looking at, you get what you pay for in all trades including architects... I have worked with many over the years and it still surprises me how shit alot of them are even with all the fancy letters after their name!

If you are in Hertfordshire or N.London area then this is the type of work project we carry out regularly, happy to chat and offer advice

The hardest thing I found from seeing 3 architects and builders was a rough price of my plans, they d obviously been burnt in the past by giving a guesstimate.  I was sort of caught in a catch 22, not wanting to commit to an architect without knowing if I could afford it.

Architects have really good ideas but the real win for me was the structural engineer, he d obviously seen so many similar projects he had the best ideas, and knew instinctively what would work.  You can pretty much have anything you want but it's going to cost ££££.

I was about to give up having been down a few blind alleys, then I got lucky by calling in at a local refurb and the builder/arcitect combo worked.  So top tip, expect builders who aren't interested who even come recommended.

tjagain
Full Member
If i read it right the OP

I don't think you did. They specifically mention a lintel install. And even you acknowledge a window conversion might still need work and that requires a structural engineer.

There isn't anything really difficult in the job but the sounds of it. But while stud walls might not be structurally important they can absolutely **** up things like safe egress in a fire. Eg if you wind up with an unprotected staircase.

So its easy enough to say there isn't anything needed but you don't know that. And if building control get wind of it (or you try and sell and the surveyor spots it) its an awful lot of ballache (and a fine) for not asking some simple questions.

Someone with the right qualifications or experience needs to be consulted. That might be a builder saying they need xyz to price or it might be an architect or even an architectural technician or an engineer.

And stud walls can be load bearing, particularly in timber frame properties. You might find that there is one bit of it that is about 8 studs all together which is probably holding something up….

or older properties with studs at 45 deg sometimes indicate a structural wall, sometimes they are ply lined too. Not every stud can just be removed….

You've got two things going on..... a revamp of the structure and the moving of the kitchen.

You need a builder to sort the former (and an electrician and a plumber if the builder can't supply them) and then someone to fit the new kitchen.

It sounds like an easy job but you probably need every trade involved (the above plus tiler, plasterer and flooring fitter).

Definitely ditch the gas hob... Induction is better, safer and cleaner.

Thanks all, to answer a few questions:

- We’re located in West Oxfordshire,

- we have had a few local builders recommended by friends (but need a reasonable design /scope before they’ll look at it),

- the bifold doors will require a small section of wall between existing door and window to be removed and new lintel for the whole opening so definitely requires structural engineer,

- the internal wall was put in when the room was combined (it turned the old kitchen doorway into a small cupboard) so won’t require structural engineer,

- I’ve used an online design tool to sketch-up and look at kitchen layout ideas so fairly sure it’s feasible - my biggest concern is the mess of pipes, including the main stopcock, under the existing sink and making sure it can all be moved or suitably hidden away!

I saw a friend today who’s recently used an architectural technician for a loft conversion and extension, having read your comments, I think I need to give him a call!

I tell my customers

"Anything is possible with enough time and money"

Unfortunately people are often short of atleast one of them... 🙂

You need a good architect, describe the outcomes you want. Then let them pen it through.
They’ll see spaces and services in a different way to you.

Just one small tip don't strip out the old kitchen first you can continue to use it while you install the new kitchen in the other room, so it doesn't have to be that much of a rush.

new lintel for the whole opening so definitely requires structural engineer,

You can get this done now.... A builder will need to see the SE plan in order to give you a quote.

Just one small tip don’t strip out the old kitchen first you can continue to use it while you install the new kitchen in the other room, so it doesn’t have to be that much of a rush.

This.

Only so long can you get by without a sink...

I would suggest looking around for a local building plans shop, usually much cheaper than an architect. Unlike an architect the plans shop will provide a detail drawing for the builder to work from for the estimate. They can also do the liason with building control/planning at the council. Depending on drainage for the new room location planning may be involved as environmental impact is their patch for waste water disposal.

EDIT my use of a planning shop was over 20 years ago hence no real up to date idea on pricing.

– the bifold doors will require a small section of wall between existing door and window to be removed and new lintel for the whole opening so definitely requires structural engineer,

So you’re planning to create an opening that is now the width of old door + window + the space in between? Pretty much what we did last year and installed a 4.5m sliding door. It’s brilliant. There are limits to how big an opening can be with particular lintel set ups/house type. Ours is a modern timber framed and managed to get away with the steel being held up by cripple studs at each end then tied into the ceiling timbers-any bigger than 4.5m then you’ll need steels all round for support however IANASE. Then you’ll need a catnic or similar for the external support-and again very length specific or you’ll need extra I beam type lintels externally too. Effectively we were looking at an extra 3-4k worth of steels to add 0.5m to the opening. But your SE will provide you with the best method. Builder aside, make sure you get a good surveyor/SE on the case, and it’s always good if they have a good relationship with the builder.