[Closed] Kirsty warks sexism documentary

Yup scary indeed. The GT stuff was an eye opener for me.

Found the abuse that the girl-gamer gets as a matter of course quite scary. It's one thing being able to do stuff in GTA (and I'm undecided how I feel about this kind of thing tbh), but the stuff that's being said to her regularly... Jeez!

I tweeted Toby young about his and dellingpoles conversation about shagging Suzanne Moore till she was bow legged he claims he was just retweeting dellingpoles comment so he's not sexist

Just a shit then 😕

Will get round to watching it but some of the rape trolls/abuse/threats are way beyond the line of acceptable.

Thanks for the heads up, downloading it now

It was worth watching, bit preachy in parts but then any Docu about this kinda topic will need to polarise the Audience to get the message across.
Well thought out tho' and some of the interviews and POV were interesting to say the least.

Watch with Tea and Buscuits.

I didn't see it but I heard some clips where they were going on (again) about the GTA prostitute thing. I agree with much of what Wark says generally but I don't think she understands the point of the game.

i kind of agree molgrips but worth watching it in context

if you go on youtube and search for 'killing hookers in GTA' and there are plenty of videos of people bragging about how they dispatch women

eg
Bring a prostitute inside your home and kill her for your children to see.

is that healthy molgrips, or just harmless laddish banter?

there are hundreds of videos of people bragging about how they dispatch women

Hmm.. but is that GTA's fault or the game players? You can do loads of horrendous things in GTA, that's the point of the game. But many of them aren't sexist, so I don't consider it a sexist game.

again it was in context, the show wasnt judging GTA, it was used on a segment about the internet and online gaming, which is a very male place and the effect it has on any women that happen to be there... the girl whod been gaming since she was 6 had some pretty nasty messages from fellow gamers

I am fairly sure I killed, in shockingly brutal fashion, more dudes than wimmin in GTA5.

Watch with Tea and Buscuits.

Best send my order through to the little lady in the kitchen then.

Is it really sexism? Or is it people just finding any opportunity to be really nasty to each other? In verbal fights people seem to latch onto anything they can about the other person to be nasty (consider four-eyes as an insult when 50% of people wear glasses so is entirely normal), and if that person happens to be a woman they'll come up with sexist nastiness.

If you want to be nasty to a male, you have to think of something else.

shagging Suzanne Moore till she was bow legged

This however is sexist, because it's about sexual conquest, and isn't part of an argument or anything.

If you want to be nasty to a male, you have to think of something else.

This is a symptom, not a cause.

Why are there no real gender-based insults which attack men? Other - of course - than those which do so by comparing them to women, or gays etc. And what does it say about men that these terms are considered insulting?

Well yes the basis of these insults is sexist of course, based on sexual conquest, but is the person using them actually BEING sexist? I got called a four-eyed **** once by an accquaintance, do you think he really hates people with glasses?

I dunno , but being called a middle-aged male passes for an insult on a lot of occasions. (Not that the world doesn't treat middle aged males very well, thank you very much)

If this threads going down the route of sexism as opposed to recommending the programme or not then I'll comment on both sides, there are still a helluva lot of misogynistic Males around and there are a helluva lot of oppressed Women around.

I find it bloody odd that Women can not fight on the front line with Men and all based upon the misogynistic Males (in charge) POV.

Thats what I hate about this country, a lot of decisions are made upon Sex rather than capability.

Truely dark age theories.

Well, you're right to make a distinction between sexist people and sexist words, but in terms of the effect there's no difference.

For example I'm mixed-race, and if someone uses this to insult me I don't care whether they as a person are racist or not. Likewise if I was a woman and someone shouted misogynistic abuse at me in the street. It's the words that do the damage.

Part of the problem is people not realising this, hence the 'it's just banter' (non)defence.

I do so tire of computer games being the 21st Century equivalent of book burning. Some nutcase goes on a killing spree in the arse-end of Arizona and there's always some modern-day Puritan weasel on a late-night news programme going "ah, but you see, he played Call of Duty..."

Sure, in GTA you can murder prostitutes. You can also not do so. The game doesn't sit there whispering "psst, kill a hooker, you know you want to... hey, why not try it in real life, big boy?" If I so desired, I could go out and murder a prostitute right now [i]in real life[/i], that doesn't imply that the real world encourages sexism.

The problem isn't that gaming makes people violent or sexist, any more than than rock and roll, television or books ever did. If you're wrong in the head or a nasty piece of work, you'll still be those things whether you've played GTAV or not. The problem is that the Internet gives these horrible little toads a means of being heard.

Yes, watched it. Left a bad taste in my mouth.

The GTA5 stuff was only a very small part of the documentary - what I find disturbing about the computer game thing is that people (and I mean a lot of normally very sensible people) buy that for their 10 year old kids to play. It's only a game eh?

Kirsty Wark has a online discussion at 2pm this afternoon - I won't be joining it as I can imagine what those who use the anonymity of the 'net will find so joyful to contribute.

Well, you're right to make a distinction between sexist people and sexist words, but in terms of the effect there's no difference.

Yes, but the root cause is different and that's a key point. Educating people not to use very damaging insults in online arguments is a completely different thing to eradicating actual misogyny. But both are of course important.

Re the GTA thing - as Cougar points out, it's something you CAN do in the game, it's not the point of the game, and this is often not pointed out on telly.

Sure, in GTA you can murder prostitutes. You can also not do so. The game doesn't sit there whispering "psst, kill a hooker, you know you want to... hey, why not try it in real life, big boy?"

I don't think anyone here would conflate their gaming behaviour and their actions in the real world in such a literal manner. Whilst GTA doesn't actively encourage you to kill a hooker, it's been programmed to provide some form gratification for doing so - whether it's just the image of it or the fact you get some reward in the game i.e. cash.

The fact is those actions don't result in sanction but quite to opposite - stick it on Youtube and await the kudos of your peers.

If a young teenager disenfranchised with parents/authority etc, seeks and gets some sort of validation for these actions, then thats 'a bad thing' whether or not they affect his real world actions, they sure as hell will affect his attitude somehow.

it's something you CAN do in the game, it's not the point of the game, and this is often not pointed out on telly.

I love GTA5, but the game does enable certain activities but not others. Murdering prostitutes seems to be acceptable within the GTA5 world, but there are no children walking around so the game makers certainly see killing children as unacceptable. You could question whether you needed prostitutes in the game at all? They tend to be a vulnerable group in society. I think you even need to engage with them at least once to get 100%.

Not judging the game at all, just an observation.

Anyway, the "eye opener" for me was those American Football lads raping a girl at a party and their mates filming each other laughing about it. Never in my lifetime would anyone I know have found that kind of thing acceptable, or indeed, funny.
So is that a sign of the times? or just always happened but without the 'net was not known about?

It's a sexist and ageist world. Will catch it on iplayer and hope I can contain my anger.

It was interesting. I think that sexism is swinging back to early 80s levels in rhetoric but because some men are feeling threatened as opposed to be an unthinking expression of relative power before the 80s and the internet gives a voice to it. Also, far less overtly present in the workplace. I thought the point about sexist humour reinforcing sexist attitudes in those that hold them but not affecting those who don't was interesting and clearly plays out when you think about it.

On the specific gaming culture stuff - I play a lot of video games, and have done for the last 35 years. I found the latest GTA V difficult - I thought the knowing irony isn't sufficient for the misogyny, racism, torture etc. I get the joke, but I think it isn't really funny anymore. Unless I'm playing with my mates, I mute everybody else in online gaming.

they sure as hell will affect his attitude somehow.

Personally I dont see the appeal of them and would discourage my own kids from playing them- I know it is an 18

Yes, watched it. Left a bad taste in my mouth.

The GTA5 stuff was only a very small part of the documentary - what I find disturbing about the computer game thing is that people (and I mean a lot of normally very sensible people) buy that for their 10 year old kids to play. It's only a game eh?

I can, but so what? He's not calling someone a ******, he's reciting a traditional rhyme.
Ooh, look wikipedia's racist - they put the rhyme on their site!

My feeling from this thread based on some of the responses compared to previous threads is that it's okay to be racist but not sexist.

Which supports my feeling that people only care about equal rights etc when it affects them, but don't when it applies to their least favourite group of people.

People like this fuel my increasing levels of misanthropy.

I'd love to see that thread you're referring to where we're all being ok about racism, I must've missed it.

[img] [/img]

cinnamon_girl - Member
It's a sexist and ageist world. Will catch it on iplayer and hope I can contain my anger.

Spot on CG, Given whats written above by some, it's also a world of people who can justify anything to themselves.

Ooh, Tom's done some research and double quoted me! Should I be flattered or offended? Clever as he thinks he is, he quite clearly hasn't understood my posts, so I'll be neither.

I think the concern is systematic desensitisation

Yep. Internet is a funny place for a life to be lived. (looks at watch, heads for door)

Given whats written above by some

I hope you're not referring to me.

Just to be clear - I'm trying to draw a distinction between using casually sexist words, and actually being sexist. Both are a problem, but not the same problem imo.

Personally I dont see the appeal of them

The appeal is an open world game to explore, full of interesting and funny things besides the prostitutes and killing. I've played the whole storyline and not done anything 'bad' beyond what was in the missions. And no, sleeping with prostitutes isn't one of them.

There's a lot of emotional content in the latest one, it's almost a shame they still leave the off-colour stuff in tbh, it's looking more and more like a leftover from GTA3

As I said above one of the things I took from the programme is that causally/unthinking sexism (and I assume racism etc) reinforces, encourages and provides support to those who hold the views - whilst has no real impact on those that don't.

So those of us that aren't affecting can tend to overlook the impact on the sexists etc in society and the impact on those who are suffering from sexism.

This is the real problem with Clarkson - his form of offhand, jokey, casual sexism and racism reinforces negative behaviours in those that already hold those views whilst he rest of us just roll our eyes, groan and move on. His status in popular culture makes this a bigger problem.

On GTA V I think it is inability to play the game in any sort of positive moral way (even within the context of being a gangster!) that turned me off - the characterisation was so strong it was difficult to impose my own personality and as they are pretty much all unlikeable characters it ended up distasteful for me.

Pubic Hair

A lot of lads of a certain age belive that pubic hair on a female is wrong, because the clean shaven look is what they are exposed to on internet porn sites. They also expect girls to be really skinny and to enjoy "swallowing" for the same reason.

A lot of girls of a certain age feel pressured into conforming to these expectations.

Or so I've been told.

The ability to kill prostitutes on GTA isn't much of an issue compared to the tidal wave of everyday sexism that people don't even notice.

On GTA V I think it is inability to play the game in any sort of positive moral way (even within the context of being a gangster!) that turned me off

Yeah that wouldn't be GTA then if you could drive around sensibly, give prostitutes a load of money earned honestly to sort their lives out and make withdrawals from a bank account using your own account.

I had the program on in the background and couldn't get over the coincidence seeing this thread on STW at the same time -

http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/bras-how-wide-is-too-wide

I know (assume) it was meant as a parody of this -

http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/bars-how-wide-is-too-wide

As 'mild' as this is considering what was on the program, when does a joke/double entendre/inneundo become sexism?

As 'mild' as this is considering what was on the program, when does a joke/double entendre/inneundo become sexism?

And when should you stop giving her one?

Drac - yeah I know - the Sims it aint, but it did seem more unremittingly grim than the previous version and a real pity for me because the openworldness of it all is so brilliantly realised.

Drac - yeah I know - the Sims it aint, but it did seem more unremittingly grim than the previous version and a real pity for me because the openworldness of it all is so brilliantly realised.

Very violent yes especially the utterly brilliant game character and Psycho Trevor but I seen it for as a video game so had great fun doing silly things in it too. The story line I thought was brilliant the final mission story one the best I've played in any game. The biggest shame about GTA V is that I can't play it on my PS4.

Drac - Moderator

And when should you stop giving her one?

Sexist.....I've found one do, I get my 5 pounds now 😆

"Just to be clear - I'm trying to draw a distinction between using casually sexist words, and actually being sexist. Both are a problem, but not the same problem imo"

Are the Clarkson defense, it's not what I say that counts.

Was not alluding to anyone in particular but just not impressed some comments.

For anyone who has gamed a while, will remember one of Rockstars other titles - Manhunt, got banned I believe.

In GTA V it has a story that helps to deflect away from the core principle/facets of the game and perhaps slightly less obvious.

I think potentially the problem with gaming as opposed to violent films is you choose to carry out acts rather then have them shown to you.

Whether this helps to encourage an already sadistic/sexist etc. mind to carry them out in real life, who knows?

By the way I'm an avid gamer who plays everyday on varying games violent or otherwise, so not anti-gaming just trying to [s]empathise.[/s] understand.

Kirsty PHWWWWWar!k did you say?

😉

Nothing sensible to add on a Friday afternoon.
IGMC

For the record - I don't think video games make people violent (other than the eye-gouging frustration of your average 1980s platformer) and I really do not think they should be censored beyond that applied to other media.

So GTAV on sale as an 18 - fine by me. In fact I get annoyed by those that criticise game content without reflected on the adult certificate.

'd love to see that thread you're referring to where we're all being ok about racism, I must've missed it

On GTA V I think it is inability to play the game in any sort of positive moral way (even within the context of being a gangster!) that turned me off

There are positive bits in it, but there are certain things you have to do to proceed that are distasteful of course. But the authors were making a strong moral point with 'that' bit, ironically.

It was not racist as no one said anything racist enough times for it to count.

Struggling with the reasoning for GTA being sexist. Yes it has the opportunity for violence against women. But also men. And frankly there is never any doubt in a GTA game as to whether or not your character is a total shitehawk, the closest it gets to ambiguity is pitching you against worse people, or in the case of Nico letting you know why he's so broken and letting you see his tragedy... But you can never think for a second it's acceptable, unless you're already wrong in the head.

Northwind - I think it is the combination of sex and murder and that it is exclusively male on female violence in the game that causes the offence and raises questions about sexism - as you say pretty much everything else is equal opportunities mayhem.

If we can get off the obvious red herring that is GTA, this video sums up quite nicely the words vs person situation. You don't get a free pass to use 'casual' sexist language or behave in a sexist way because you're 'not a sexist person'. I would say in current society, if it doesn't strike you pretty much *every day* then you need to look again. Sexism is endemic.

Agreed. Both are damaging. But as I said, not quite the same issue.

Well I think the primary issue is how sexism manifests itself in society. How does it damage men and women? People aren't damaged by thoughts. People are damaged by words and actions. To that extent, it doesn't matter what the motivation behind them is. In my experience the problem is:

-People don't recognise sexism when they see it, or regurgitate it. It's seen as normal.
-People who do recognise it let it slide.

To that extent, it doesn't matter what the motivation behind them is.

Well it does, because it affects how to stop people doing it.

If someone really doesn't mean to be sexist but they just don't understand what they are saying, then you just need to point it out and things can be resolved.

If someone genuinely is misogynistic then they need therapy of some kind.

... and casual use of sexist language normalises sexist stereotypes and reinforces and emboldens sexist views in those that have them.

Well it does, because it affects how to stop people doing it.

If someone really doesn't mean to be sexist but they just don't understand what they are saying, then you just need to point it out and things can be resolved.

If someone genuinely is misogynistic then they need therapy of some kind.

You're right, hence my saying 'to that extent' with regard to effect on society. I sincerely hope most sexism in society is borne of ignorance. If on the other hand a large proportion of men are misogynists then I despair.

I also think girls and young women need to be brought up to recognise it too and to have self-esteem, to reject unrealistic images, to know they can have lego instead of barbie dolls, and whatever colour they want and not just pink.

edit: Sorry a bit soapboxy there but this being an MTB forum you know what I mean hopefully.

Sorry! LOL still trying to get my head around the fact that Molgrips clearly hasn't seen the program!