You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
..takes a significant step forward .
Excellent.
Hey Drac ..you are only the second "local " person I know of in favour of it after myself ..
My extended family disown me as they are sheep / cattle farmers in the area and are totally opposed ..
I believe it would be truly wonderful to re-introduce these animals back into the wild places of Britain. However, if the local farming community are hostile to the Lynx returning then I fear for any Lynx returned to the wild. I hope Lynx UK Trust get their license with some level of support from the NSA.
I would like to see the Wolf re-introduced too. Britain probably would benefit from a large predator.
If they are hard-wired to prey on deer what makes the farmers so convinced they'll eat sheep?
My thoughts too...and there is a vast over-population of deer at Kielder / under population of gamekeepers to keep on top of the job ..
Cooool.
Spent a day with Grandson notlocal at the Highland Wildlife Park, near Kingussie (recommended). The "Lynx cat" was his favourite, closely followed by the Highland wildcat.
Their Beaver population has been returned to the wild according to the literature, but it would be good to see Elk reintroduced too.
I think I watched a programme, or read something, that stated a return of Beaver to an area had helped to regenerate the wetlands that in turn led to increased growth along the river bank. Overall, the increase in foliage was responsible for the return of Salmon/Insects/small birds/deer/bear and wolf to the area.
If they are hard-wired to prey on deer what makes the farmers so convinced they’ll eat sheep?
If they were "hard-wired", indeed. But they aren't, of course.
From wikipedia (I know, I know, but this is grown-up territory):
"Where common, roe deer appear to be the preferred prey species for the lynx. ... Even where roe deer are quite uncommon, the deer are still quantitatively the favored prey species, though in summer smaller prey and occasional domestic sheep are eaten more regularly."
So I guess, given two options, one where there are no animals that might eat sheep and one where there are, and farmers being brutal insensitive morons who don't like change and do like money, they are voting for the obvious.
Anyway if wolves are re-introduced they'll eat all the lynxes. And don't get me started on Siberian tigers (which I'd like to see introduced).
Lots of issues with wolves eating sheep in south of France.
I've heard a lot of farmers go on about being custodians of the countryside. This is clearly bollocks. as they are responsible for devastating most of it. After all, it's not meant to look like it does. However they do this to keep us alive, which is a good thing.
So we need to compromise. Things like losing a small amount of food productivity for a large increase in wildlife sustainability - this is already recognised in places where they let field edges grow, or they farm organically, let flowers grow in hay meadows etc. I don't see a difference here - lose a few sheep (and get compensated for it) in return for a big improvement in the natural environment.
Any farmers care to comment? Welshfarmer?
On another topic, if there are so many deer in Kielder, why not adopt the same approach as the US state of Wisconsin and let humans pay to keep the deer down, instead of having to pay humans. The humans engage in an outdoor activity, they get lots of cheap meat, the environment gets managed and the state makes a lot of money. Win all round.
let humans pay to keep the deer down, instead of the other way round.
Wisconsin pay deer to keep humans down?
If they were “hard-wired”, indeed. But they aren’t, of course.
They are hard-wired to prefer certain areas. So for example Lynx get very bad press due to Norway where farmers are more likely to let their sheep into wooded areas at which point the Lynx think its meal time. The generous subsidies when sheep are "killed" by Lynx may also add to the high numbers reported especially with the limited checks.
When I looked into this before there were major gaping holes in the plans the biggest being they had no way of compensating farmers for the loss of sheep. Lots of hot air about how visitor numbers to the area would increase and this would generate money that would be used to compensate farmers, no actual concrete proposals. Suggestions like " farmers would need to get guard llamas" "compensation would be paid" with no actual proposals for how this would happen don't cut it when the losses to individual farmers are likely to be thousands a year and perhaps more importantly year on year knock on effects in breeding programmes
I am in favour of reintroductions but doing it with predators requires robust methods to compensate farmers for the inevitable livestock kills and most importantly the farmers need to be on board otherwise they Lynx will simply be shot.
After Brexit there won’t be any hill sheep farmers left.
They could farm Lynx and we could all have cheap organic " puddy tat" for Sunday lunch.
Further news...
Everything we know about lynx being brought back to Northumberland
https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/everything-know-lynx-being-brought-15021432
Shared from my Google feed
The population of Spanish lynx is up to about 600 now (from below 100 at the turn of the century) and I'm not aware of any major problems to sheep farming - and Spanish farmers are no less vocal than their English counterparts. There have been some attacks, but it's not a serious issue.
The return of the wolf is a bit more problematic, however!
I enjoy the prospect of cycling through Kielder thinking that I could be passing a hidden lynx.
I am all for this - I know of a couple of Scottish spots that are being 'prepared' (very subtly) for Lynx here. For me they pose minimal conflict with landowners, other than the deer over population lot. And I personally think we should shoot over half the deer in Scotland anyway...
I think that the wild boar, lynx and sea eagle are minimal conflict, maximum tourist and ecological value species.
I think wolves are a step too far - too much fear and will lead to conflict, that cannot end well.
I enjoy the prospect of cycling through Kielder thinking that I could be passing a hidden lynx.
I was talking to a leopard conservationist in Capetown years ago, and asked him how widespread they are. He waved his hand at the scrubby hillside above us and suggested that there were probably one or two keeping an eye on us already.
More worryingly, I ran the Safaricom marathon a while later. There were armed rangers supposedly keeping an eye out for big game, but miles of track where I didn’t see anybody at all, just monkeys, giraffes, and probably didn’t see the leopards watching me..
I guess lynx are the same - other than camera traps and the rare sighting nobody will be any wiser to their existence.
https://www.naturetrek.co.uk/tours/spain-realm-of-the-iberian-lynx
Bit like mountain biking then. Sheep are generally worth less than £100 whereas if you farm tourists ... kerchiingg.
If you want to see how this type of thing works look at the agencies involved in the re-introduction of Beaver Trials in Scotland. Until English National Heritage back this up along with a "credible" organisation it is just hot air.
Beavers are not preadators
The Osprey are doing pretty well in Kielder.
Beavers are not preadators
Tell that to the trees 🙁
It's got little to do with the type of species. It's got to do with the process of making it legal and it being adopted back into the definition of a "native species". Until the Govt, through ENH and another reputable conservation body are fully engaged, this is all hot air, from the entity, the Lynx Trust UK. In Scotland the RZSS and SNH led the successful trials of reintroduced beavers and ultimately the acceptance of them as native again. It was a very long and difficult process.
Doable, but not easy and the results can be very good -
Lynx are also the main predator for beaver in many environments... Which would be quite handy in Tayside at the moment, as there are enough beaver around the place, furiously munching riverside trees and multiplying to be able to set the lynx up nicely.
In the Highlands, there are not many sheep that could command a price of £100 and there are way too many of them anyway. I'd be very happy to see their numbers reduce in the wilder areas, with roe deer and beaver returning instead and kept healthy be watching their back all the time. There are few lynx that grow large enough to tackle an adult ewe and even fewer that would seriously trouble a wild goat. A healthy adult roe is also generally too large and fast as well; it's more youngsters, the old, the sick and the injured that lynx will sweep up. Which is why having a predator around helps improve the quality of the prey species.
I'm all for re-wilding of large areas of the Highlands, where I'd be overjoyed to know that lynx survive as top predator and driven grouse is recognised as an appallingly wasteful mistake from history.
In Scotland the RZSS and SNH led the successful trials of reintroduced beavers and ultimately the acceptance of them as native again. It was a very long and difficult process.
Hardly! The Knapdale trial provided little if any useful information to sanction their widespread introduction. SNH and Scottish Government’s hands were tied by public pressure once the widespread extent of the Alyth originated releases was promoted in the press. A beaver cull could never have been sanctioned and so there was little option.
SNH has lost its way further in the past couple of years thanks to its new chairman. Raven cull anyone? 🤔
Hardly! The Knapdale trial provided little if any useful information to sanction their widespread introduction.
but they were the two organisations who provided the Scotgov with what they needed for the Beaver to be readopted. - My point is simply, at this time Lynx UK Trust are very far from being accredited with the level of influence or capacity to get a trial started, nevermind adopting a species no longer recognised as native. Having the ambition is laudable but you need the scientific and political back up to be successful.
I used to work with Caracal Lynx at a wildlife park (25yrs ago) in a breeding program and they gave me the fear every time i had to go into their woodland enclosure, we always went in with 3 folk, two as spotters and one doing the work as they are practically impossible to see in thick undergrowth and they liked to stalk us. They can move silently through scrub and have a turn of speed that is just a blur to the eye, i would welcome them being released into wild areas but you'd you'd never ever see them (unless there was a designated feeding area). Our male weighed 16kg and could clear 10ft vertical from a standing start and would often pluck birds as they flew overhead - very impressive creatures.
I'll try and hunt out a few pics.
On sheep farmers. I know some sheep farmers in the highlands - they run small flocks of rare breed sheep. Losing a breeding ewe or a few lambs would not only be a big financial loss to them but also wreck the breeding programme - their breeding ewes are worth a fair amount I would have thought. Experience from areas with lynx is that they do take sheep regularly.
I have nothing against reintroduction but it needs to be done properly with well thought out ways of keeping the local farmers onside and robust ways of compensating them for losses. When the lynx trust come up with this then I will support them - until then its simply not possible or plausible
I followed a big online debate between these folk I know and other farmers with the lynx trust. the lynx trust simply had no answers to any of the objections of the farmers. No answer to how compensation would be paid, no answer to how they would monitor or track the lynx, simply wishful thinking not practical at all.
I haven't followed things as closely as yourself TJ ..but with regard to monitoring & tracking the six Lynx at Kielder it's been proposed that radio collars are fitted ...
When I went to to Highland wildlife park the conservation officer was heavily against Lynx being reintroduced
She said it would mean the end of the Scottish wildcat as they would compete for territory and prey, and as the Lynx is bigger it would win
I've just checked my map, yup Kielder is still in Northumberland.
Experience from areas with lynx is that they do take sheep regularly.
Dont suppose you can provide that evidence. Since the evidence in Europe doesnt support this claim. Norway is the exception but then they have a different approach to keeping sheep which results in them being in woodland a lot more.
There is also evidence that Lynx would predate foxes so given how much foxes also get blamed I would have thought would get the farmers onside.
keeping the local farmers onside and robust ways of compensating them for losses
Farmers are already compensated by the taxpayer. Although admittedly we would need robust methods for compensation to avoid it becoming another nice subsidy. The question is whether the benefits to the country as a whole, by controlling deer, outweigh a small special interest group especially when the evidence for their claims is weak.
That said I am not convinced the Lynx Trust are the best people for the job.
If anyone local to Newcastle is interested, there's a talk on this tonight at Newcastle Uni:
Newcastle University – Ridley Building 2, room RIDB2.1.65
Join Dr Paul O’Donoghue from Lynx Trust UK as he talks about the project to re-introduce the once native Eurasian Lynx to the British Isles.
So I went to the talk on Friday - very interesting, and very popular. I turned up bang on time and had to sit in a second room where they live-streamed the audio since the lecture theatre was full (not sure how many it holds, would guess at least a couple of hundred).
I haven't followed this thread closely and I'm not very informed on debate beyond the obvious arguments (farmers vs. conservationists) but will summarise the talk in case anyone's interested.
One of the things that immediately surprised me is how small lynx actually are: about 70cm shoulder height, about the size of a "skinny labrador" (more on that later).
The speaker was, of course, massively and passionately pro-reintroduction. He presented some pretty strong arguments in favour, which (he says) are backed up by peer-reviewed scientific research (there being some quite big caveats: he's obviously picked the research that agrees with his point of view, I haven't read any of the papers he cited, and the peer-review system isn't the be all and end all).
I did feel he was rather dismissive of some of the counter-arguments, almost to the point of being arrogant in making anything anti-reintroduction to be completely bonkers.
His main argument that Kielder, with it's huge area, very low (human) population density and massive over-population of deer, is a perfect place to re-introduce lynx seems valid. He spent a lot of time making the economic case (ref. "eco-tourism"), and drew parallels with a scheme in the Harz mountains in Germany. Some calculations based on data from the scheme showed the lynx brought in some tens of millions of pounds of tourism revenue - his brief summary how they'd come to that seemed a little exaggerated to me, but the pictures he showed of all the lynx branding in the town of Bad Harzburg (think the Lynx Cafe, the Lynx Hotel, etc. etc.) made the point pretty well.
On the subject of lynx taking sheep, he was keen to point out that Lloyds of London have offered (off their own backs by the sounds of it) to underwrite insurance to provide compensation (I think at twice the market rate? might have made that up) at a cost the the trust of a few hundred quid a year. He used that to illustrate how low the risk is estimated to be by a company who are world leaders in estimating risk and making money out of that, which seems fair. Apparently the rate of sheep taken is 0.4 sheep per lynx per year (not sure if that's an SI unit!) but I can't remember where that figure came from (seems like it would be very situation depended). The lynx will be GPS tracked, and the location information used to weed out fraudulent claims.
I was looking forward to some robust debate in the Q&A at the end but sadly it didn't really happen. A few people asked some slightly tricky questions which he had answers for but which weren't probed too deeply by the questioners. One older-sounding guy, who may have been a farmer, was trying to make more of an argument but a) the audio recording didn't really pick his voice up very well, b) he was obviously quite angry and that wasn't helping him, c) he picked up on the "skinny labrador" comparison and started talking about how many sheep a labrador could kill in 10 minutes, when the comparison was obviously just about size and nothing else, so just made himself look a bit stupid, and d) he rather got shut down as the last speaker. Disappointing lack of pitchforks.
Interesting cheers Northwind.
Nice feedback ..many thanks .
After hearing this ..what were your own thoughts ?
Would you be in favour of a trial introduction ?
Yes, I would be. To be fair, I was always going to be easy to convince with my city-dwelling cat-loving lefty-liberal greenie leanings, but I like to hear both sides of an argument.
One point the chap made was that it's a trial, and even if you think the scientific evidence to support reintroduction isn't valid, then you should be in favour of a trial, which will provide the evidence it doesn't work. OK, I imagine the farmers will only see the trial as a foot in the door, but you can see his point.
I can't see how they can't work it so that all the concerns against are addressed to the satisfaction of any reasonable person.
They will have to do a lot more than they have so far to convince me and a lot of others. The main one is proper robust compensation for farmers which so far as far as I can see they simply gloss over
What so much sympathy for farmers? Sheep farming is an environmental disaster. It is destroying native woodland and wildlife.
Sheep farmers are already reliant on subsidies. Why not pay them to do something useful instead?
No issue with that Craig - apart from without some grazing all hillsides turn to impenetrable scrubland. However its a different question
Introduce Lynx they will kill sheep and the farmers need to be compensated.
I have a friend who farms in Sweden. His property is next wo an area with a high Lynx population he reckons that he has lost one ewe to Lynx in the 20 years he has been farming there.
What so much sympathy for farmers? Sheep farming is an environmental disaster. It is destroying native woodland and wildlife.
If destroying native woodland and wildlife is the problem, then that applies to every single aspect of human civilization.
without some grazing all hillsides turn to impenetrable scrubland
Otherwise known as re-wilding. I wonder how many other species would return and thrive once we got rid of a few more sheep and deer.
Introduce Lynx they will kill sheep and the farmers need to be compensated.
I agree. But it can't be that difficult. The compensation needs to be adequate to cover genuine loss (including time loss, impact on breeding programme, etc.) and maybe then some. Given the (apparently) very low risk and the ease of weeding out fraudulent claims with simple technology, it doesn't seem expensive - certainly in the context of even a modest estimate of the tourist revenue, job creation, etc. A trial will provide irrefutable evidence of the exact, location-specific risk.
Introduce Lynx they will kill sheep and the farmers need to be compensated.
Leaving aside the minor detail how much of the taxpayers cash they already get you are stating something as fact when the evidence is somewhat slim. Outside of Norway where they keep the sheep around wooded areas the impact is minimal (as per beinbhan anecdote). Far lower than is lost by bad management.
Since our sheep farmers do their best to turn the local environment into an effective desert the chances of Lynxes bounding round the bare hillsides is somewhat slim.
Plus, if we are to believe some of the other farmer scare stories foxes really do go around savaging every sheep in existence. Which is something Lynx would help with by reducing the population of foxes.
thenorthwind - they need the robust compensation scheme in place first before the re introduction
Leaving aside the minor detail how much of the taxpayers cash they already
Yep - just switch it round. No lynx trial = no subsidy.
Craig ..you seem to be generalizing your comments ..my partner's sister and husband are sheep & cattle farmers in the North Tyne Valley ..hill farmers if you will ...their land borders the forest but I have yet to see any evidence of their farming impacting the local wildlife ..badger, fox , stoat , weasel abound plenty of bird life ..Osprey's just a few mile up the road and more buzzards than you can shake a stick at ..the problem we have is in the forested area where there is a vast over population of deer ( the Lynx's primary food source ) and in an area of 250sq.miles ..three quarters of which is woodland ..I fail to see how a trial of releasing 6 radio tagged Lynx is going to cause the mass devastation everyone who is against the re-introduction is predicting .
Your comments regarding sheep farmers in general are pretty offensive ..as land owners they can farm pretty much what they ****ing choose..and I'm sure they probably work a great deal harder than yourself doing so..
my partner’s sister and husband are sheep & cattle farmers in the North Tyne Valley ..hill farmers if you will …their land borders the forest but I have yet to see any evidence of their farming impacting the local wildlife
It's well known that sheep destroy upland environments by eating everything as it tries to grow so only grass can survive. And as for lowland farms - what do you think was in those fields that are now just grass? That list of wildlife you cite, that's not bad by UK standards but the UK is really bad for wildlife, so it's still bad. Compare that to what should have been living on the land, and what still lives in other parts of the world. All agriculture destroys the environment of course it does. But then again, we need food so I'm clearly not arguing against farming. Just be aware of what it is and what it has done, and what we require it to do simply by existing and procreating.
as land owners they can farm pretty much what they ****ing choose
Legally - maybe; morally - not quite so sure.
thenorthwind – they need the robust compensation scheme in place first before the re introduction
Agreed. Given the calculated risk and the ability to minimise fraudulent claims, the number of payouts is going to be very small, so I think the Lynx Trust should be finding a way to underwrite a pretty generous compensation scheme, in part to appease farmers.
Molgrips ..fair comment .
Your comments regarding sheep farmers in general are pretty offensive
Whether it offends the snowflakes is different from whether it is true.
as land owners they can farm pretty much what they ****ing choose
Not really. There are limits on what people can do in. For farmers there is also the minor detail of how much money they get from the taxpayer. When there is that much money flowing its not unreasonable to expect some sensible returns.
Dissonance ....bullshit!
It may not be "unreasonable to expect some sensible returns " ..as you put it..but the reality is that direct payments are not linked to production and neither are they told what they can or can not farm ..
Snowflakes eh ? ..You would hit the ground a lot faster than a snowflake saying that to my farming in-laws face 😁
I'm all for this, however, it does make me start to wonder about safety in the hills - not immediately but if the trial is successful then at some point in the future, we will effectively become a potential target for a hungry predator. UK is 'good' (I use the term incredibly loosely!) as we are the predominant predator so apart from natural terrain and weather affecting us, we are pretty safe out on the hills.
It isn't all safe but it is certainly very safe - adders appear to be our biggest potential surprise, but there are certainly lots of wildlife who would be very prepared to defend themselves if they needed to.
I'm also for the idea of reintroducing the wolf - but again, my over active imagination then suddenly has me thinking that the hills would no longer be as safe.
I'm aware that the chances of attack are very low, but we are going from zero to small and typically, my brain suggests that is a worrying thing. After I give myself a shake I start to think sensibly and think it would be a good thing.
How likely would it be for an attack on a human? (genuine question as I'm honestly not sure)*
*This doesn't stop me thinking reintroduction should be done though as I'm pretty sure it is just my brain being stupid and thinking as it does.
Dissonance ….bullshit!
If they want the cash then yes they are restricted in their choices. I am suggesting further constraints and requirements to ensure we actually get some value for money.
As for snowflake. I was referring to your outrage.
How likely would it be for an attack on a human?
As close to zero as you can get. There are no reported attacks by a wild lynx.
There is a possibility I guess if you managed to trap one in a corner and it had no other way out it would attack but they are pretty small animals and they are good at dodging humans.
Wolves do have some risks associated with them but for Lynx no one sensible considers there to be any proper risk.
I’m also for the idea of reintroducing the wolf – but again, my over active imagination then suddenly has me thinking that the hills would no longer be as safe.
If I offered you a nice bike ride in Canada or the US, would you accept? Probably. They even have bears there, and they are actually dangerous to humans - some of them. You just take bear precautions, that's all. It's just part of outdoor life there.
If I offered you a nice bike ride in Canada or the US, would you accept?
I would but its not like for like. It comes down to population density and land usage. I wouldnt rule out wolves entirely but my main point was lynx arent in the same category. A case can be made against wolves with some validity. Not really against lynxes.
Ta, so my Lynx thinking is simply my stupid imagination deciding to mess with the rest of my head!
so my Lynx thinking is simply my stupid imagination deciding to mess with the rest of my head!
Probably a side effect of being on public transport near someone using way to much of it.
There is a lot of inaccurate propaganda about them with certain lobby groups make wild claims to try and get ramblers etc to take their side.
I'm in two minds - part of me loves Lynx (it's easy fluidity), but we have to seriously consider the environmental impacts - roll-ons don't contain the nasty gases after all, so I'm Sure all the way.
Beaver? I'm led to believe is attracted to Lynx, so all good.
I’m all for this, however, it does make me start to wonder about safety in the hills
This was something I was a bit worried about when I first heard about it. I love the idea of wild animals in the wilderness, but I've been for a walk in the woods in the northern US, and even with a very low chance of even seeing a (brown - smallest, least aggressive) bear (New England), I was surprised how on edge it made me. I guess you get used to it, but the whole experience was different.
But then the guy from the lynx trust explained how big they are and how incredibly unlikely you are to see one, and it really does seem nothing to worry about. Wolves on the other hand...
Ta, so my Lynx thinking is simply my stupid imagination deciding to mess with the rest of my head!
The Lynx effect.
😁..
Very good Boxelder..
dissonance and craigw went all full Partridge there.
[ video]
]
edit- why do video links not work on here?
But then the guy from the lynx trust explained how big they are and how incredibly unlikely you are to see one, and it really does seem nothing to worry about.
It'd spice up those night rides though, wouldn't it? Even if you weren't at risk, you'd be excited to see that pair of eyes in the bushes..
The glowing eyes of deer & foxes already scare me half shitless ..
Booo!!
Sad news, but reading Natural England's assessment of the application, it seems the Lynx Trust did a pretty piss poor job of putting it together. I mean you'd think they might have talked to the FC FFS?!
I agree with Northwinds assessment, the Trust let themselves down with a poor application which left refusal as being the only viable outcome.
For example:
No further technical reports or evidence were produced and much of the requested evidence post-application was in a narrative form or presented in a way which was difficult to evaluate or verify. For example: evidence that the project team have suitable capability and experience came in the form of photographs of the applicant and nominated vet holding wild animals and a list of projects they had previously been involved with; rather than details of previous licences held and professional qualifications
What a shame.