[Closed] Kids going 'off the rails'

Given that the horse is already bolted I'd be ensuring that they're safe as a priority I reckon.

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Serious version, probably need to be talking to the lads parents at this point

Yep, at this point she is acting as an adult, treat her like one, offer support and guidance - ensure she's using contraception, suggest mum offers to go to the clinic with her if she wants, make sure she knows not to be pressurised and just be there for her if things get emotional.

Safety and precautions have to take priority if it's too late to stop it, sadly. Unlikely to be a priority for social services if you reported it. Though if the lad is older than her he might end up on the sex offenders register at some point if they got the Police involved.

Seem to recall the first pregnancy at my school back in the day was about this age. My 13 year old lad is away most of the next two weeks on various music related courses/tours. Gave him a reminder of his age and responsibilities when I dropped him off this morning. A bit of embarrassment goes a long way.

Explain the legal situation to the lad and his parents.

Given that the horse is already bolted I'd be ensuring that they're safe as a priority I reckon.

Agree with that. I'd have thought that it was better for said activities to be take place somewhere safe rather than a park bench etc.

If they've acting like grown ups, a frank and open conversation should probably take place.

They know it. They're as against it as the girls parents (the families have known each other through school since about age 5) but the kids won't be told. Short of finding a way of tagging them so they can't be in the same location together (which at school is not an option) all reasonable steps have been taken. Which is why my advice is broadly to give up trying, make sure they don't get pregnant, and be ready to pick up the pieces as long as the pieces aren't too shattered.

The bigger fear is that the school feels it has to take action, particularly if it happens on school premises, and whether there is a non-nuclear option if they do. Sure - you can spell that out that to 13 year olds in big red capitals but if they just ignore you, then what can you do?

From what I understand, the police would be unlikely to get involved as it is consensual and they are the same age – if he was over 16 it would be very different though.

I agree with others that they need a frank conversation (perhaps with both sets of parents and both kids together).

Can a minor engaging in sexual activity with another consenting minor be prosecuted for having sex with a minor?
Or is it a double negative and they cancel each other out?

I really do wonder if our definition of a minor needs to be reviewed? Given kids seem to be sexually active at a younger age and girls are apparently reaching puberty at a younger age now as well?

Personally I'd lock them in a room on their own for 8 years once hormones start kicking in.

13 year kids having sex is nothing new and whether I approve or not they are unlikely to stop having sex because I disapprove. Apparently sex is quite god fun....who knew

Safe sex, frank discussion, broad ground rules

you have to deal with the reality if the situation rather than trying and enforce what you want to happen

They are teenagers nothing a boring middle aged adult was going to stop me having sex then or now frankly

As for prosecution they are both committing an offence [ neither can consent] but if you think having them prosecuted and on the sex offenders register is going to hep the situation or their future then you really need to have a word with yourself

Manage the reality don't try and create your ideal scenario

Whilst I sympathise with your outrage there CharlieMungus, it seems odd to me that you would be seeking to hold the school responsible for your parenting mistakes!

EDIT: where's his post gone?

How do you know whether it's consensual?

Whilst I sympathise with your outrage there CharlieMungus, it seems odd to me that you would be holding the school responsible for your parenting mistakes!

I would expect the support of the school in stopping my daughter from being penetrated by a schoolmate. Not responsible for my mistakes (if it were that simple), but responsible for her care

How do you know whether it's consensual?

agreed! at 13, the child is not able to give consent

Just renewed my level 3 child protection training...

Age 13+ is [b]above [/b]the age where Police intervention is mandatory. And yes - JY and others are wrong, they [i]can [/i]consent, but cannot be assumed to be doing so without further information. Below 13, consent is not possible and it is automatically a criminal offence.

If there is not a great age/power/intellect imbalance between the two of them, it is relatively unlikely that Social Services will intervene very heavily...

BUT - the school has a duty of care for what happens on their premises, and if it [i]is [/i]happening on school premises will be forced to act. They really have little or no leeway on that.

First issues are risk containment, eg pregnancy and disease, education and ensuring that this is genuinely consensual. 13-16 year olds differ so hugely emotionally and in terms of their perceived ownership of their own bodies that we cannot make judgements about that on this forum, but someone needs to.

I appreciate it's not ideal, but as junky says, you have to deal with reality. If as the op said she is openly discussing it then we have to assume it is consensual. Perhaps they need to sit down and talk through the legalities, not only in respect to their age but also public decency laws, in case the kids aren't aware but threatening the school is not going to help anyone.

Stoatsbrother - that's helpful info and you're spot on with this:

13-16 year olds differ so hugely emotionally and in terms of their perceived ownership of their own bodies that we cannot make judgements about that on this forum, but someone needs to.

agreed! at 13, the child is not able to give consent

maybe consensual, but is it informed consent?

agreed! at 13, the child is not able to give consent

Okay, but if you accept that then the lad is too young to consent as well.

just finished a two year investigation and prosecution for a similar case with a community order no prison no sex offender registration no sexual harm prevention order , which was a bit of a result . The risk had it gone wrong was 5 years plus in prison sex offender registration and a life time sexual harm prevention order (asbo for sex offenders) . i have ongoing another client where i am trying years after the event to unpick the harm being done by a conviction for underage sex that resulted in an equivalent to a SHPO.
Adults who facilitate under age sex could also be prosecuted. The school my at some point feel obliged to act ..

By posting the above i am not seeking to moralise just to illustrate the actual legal risks.

teenagers will be interested in sex and will become sexually active at some point in some way , lots of talking and guidance plus ensuring they are protected as much as possible. The only teenage girl i know now has the benefit of a cool step mum who can talk to her as a near equal and explain the risks in a caring rather than preachy way.

another pretty experienced Safeguarding bod here - listen [b]very[/b] carefully to crankboy and stoatsbrother.

How do you know whether it's consensual?

they can consent

Its still an actual offence [ ie consent does not alter the law] was what I meant though, clearly, not what I said

Not sure if fascinating is the right word here but it's a certainly a very interesting thread.

I always thought that I would be more worried being the father of daughters but these days I can see there are as many reasons to be worried about being the father of sons as well.

From the description given in the OP it seems that the pair of them are carrying on all over the place despite the efforts of both sets of parents to keep them apart.

That doesn't answer the question though does it? Coerced? Forced? Threatened? Blackmail?

by him or her?

When I was a 13 year old boy there was no chance that me or any other 13 year old boys were getting anywhere near any of the girls in our year that were already sexually active.. they were like adults in comparison to us (and in the early 80s, their boyfriends usually had their own car)

That doesn't answer the question though does it? Coerced? Forced? Threatened? Blackmail?

I think as long as you're suggesting that either party could be the victim here then you have a point.

I think as long as you're suggesting that either party could be the victim here then you have a point.

Yes and no geetee, boys are invariably physically stronger than girls. They're both victims imo.

That doesn't answer the question though does it? Coerced? Forced? Threatened? Blackmail?

I am more than certain that if any parent had the slightest suspicion that anything that was not consensual was going on they would have done something about it already (other than asking friends what to do).

Yes and no geetee, boys are invariably physically stronger than girls. They're both victims imo.

Well at that age the strength argument might or might not be true. But regardless of that all the means of coercion you cited above do not rely on physical strength so actually that is immaterial to the argument.
You’re tapping into an undercurrent of frustration and anger that men and boys are automatically regarded as perpetrators and that only men can be guilty of sex crimes. It’s an entirely wrong assumption and apart from anything else it’s deeply sexist and incredibly offensive to men.

I am more than certain that if any parent had the slightest suspicion that anything that was not consensual was going on they would have done something about it already (other than asking friends what to do).

Maybe, maybe not. But I do think the parents involved need to be reminded that these are still children who expect, rightly, to receive guidance from their parents.

You’re tapping into an undercurrent of frustration and anger that men and boys are automatically regarded as perpetrators and that only men can be guilty of sex crimes. It’s an entirely wrong assumption and apart from anything else it’s deeply sexist and incredibly offensive to men.

Nope and am sorry if it came across that way. I used words that could apply to both male and female but am guilty of generalising when it came to physical strength.

Nope and am sorry if it came across that way.

Understood - thanks for the clarity.

I recently listened to a debate on this subject by a group of female politicians all of whom only made references specifically to boys being the 'perpetrators' (they specifically used that word) as if that were the only possible scenario.

When it comes to the diaglogue used to debate this issue, that is almost exclusively how the debate is framed.

I recently listened to a debate on this subject by a group of female politicians all of whom only made references specifically to boys being the 'perpetrators' (they specifically used that word) as if that were the only possible scenario.

When it comes to the diaglogue used to debate this issue, that is almost exclusively how the debate is framed.

Ah but politicians aren't in the real world are they? Or they've not been engaging with their constituents.

Of course it's wrong and they've clearly not been paying attention to what gets reported in the news. There's really no excuse for that type of sexism.

I thought if they were of similar age with consent the home office guidlines are not to prosecute (E&W), in scotland both can be prosecuted for oral,vaginal or anal even if they consent but a fingering is fine lol

I can't see the prosecution of two minors engaging in sexual activities consentially being in the public interest though unless they are doing it in public etc

Okay, but if you accept that then the lad is too young to consent as well.

Whilst it's true that boys / men are not always the "perpetrators" of sexual misconduct cases, we're veering awfully close to the "not all men..." argument. It is very wrong to automatically assume that any blame must lie solely with the lad, but I'd hazard that it holds true in the vast majority of abuse cases.

but I'd hazard that it holds true in the vast majority of abuse cases.

Given that the research suggests that these cases are vastly under reported I would suggest that the closest guess you can hazard is that we haven't got a clue.

but I'd hazard

I think we need to refer back to the OP and his suggestion of Bombers - for the both of them needing their heads banging together rather than the other banging they are doing...

THanks all for your comments, particularly those with genuine knowledge of the situation.

I'm encouraged that the 'crime' as such is not a mandatory offence, because common sense here would suggest that they are both consenting. I certainly don't have any indications from the girl's side that she's being coerced in any way shape or form, from what her parents have said, and as said in the OP no-one wants the lad to have his life ruined by being prosecuted for it. And while there may be a valid discussion to be had over what consent means / whether it can be given at that age / what form coercion can take, I don't think this is the place when I'm looking for proper advice to assist a mate in need.

The sensible adult conversations are taking place, the issue now is whether they are being listened to. Specifically 1/ as clearly said, being careful to avoid an unwanted pregnancy / disease; 2/ that they (she) won't look back fondly in years to come about the time she got (insert act of choice, but it's not necessarily full sex in all cases) behind the bus shelter / on the coach on the school trip, so if they can't stop it completely at least carry on in an adult way.

Still not sure if the school should be taking action - again, not that the parents are asking them to, or are abrogating responsibility to them to do something - just unsure whether there is a case for turning a blind eye irrespective or not of whether that's legitimately an option.

@crankboy in particular - what is 'facilitating' in this context? Seems consensus is that if they can't stop them completely both sets of parents (who IMHO are both worried yet at the same time remarkably 'grown up' about this) should at least offer some sort of alternative to 'public' places; but is that creating another problem for them.

Would have been very easy to just call the police and force the issue but that's not going to serve anyone well in the long term.

Legalities aside, I wouldn't know how to handle that one other than "it's wrong at your age".

There will no doubt be agencies in OPs area who parents and kids can talk to - but don't expect them to wave their fingers at them and tell them to stop, they'll likely explain all the risks both physical, mental and health, give solid fact based advise about staying safe and offer counselling if needed. I only know this as I work indirectly with some youth services agencies - trust me, my daughter is only 2 - but in 11 years time I'd be heart broken to be talking to them about her having sex, but not nearly as much as the ones who need a couple of cans of Cider to face School or visit needle exchanges.

I have to say whilst I waited till 16 (or more accurately waited until the first opportunity presented itself, when I happened to be 16) a small proportion of my class were “at it” at 14, maybe 13 and at least by the standards of FB they all seem to be leading happy, normal lives now.

Pffft. Popped mine at karate camp in Lossiemouth with a 13 year old. I was the same age. No coercion, no pressure, no bullying. Just two humans who thought it might be an interesting thing to do.

Parents involved could be seen as approving/encouraging sexual activity, that's a pretty dangerous thing to do where 13 year olds are concerned. Tread carefully and fear repercussions.

What does 'could' mean? According to who/what? Who has say so? When the options are banning it but then knowing they'll carry on as they are, or letting them carry on in a grown up way - unless there's a black and white line that must not be crossed then 'could' in this context means SFA.

I know you're trying to be helpful but on legalities I'd prefer if it could be left to people who REALLY know.

theotherjonv facilitate was my word " aid abet counsel or procure " is the legal , what does that mean ? The law says words carry their ordinary natural meaning so what ever a jury decides , neadle exchanges have been argued to facilitate drug supply so the risk where you provide shelter condoms etc to fornicating children would be real .
On consent under 16s cannot consent to sexual touching so any sex act between them is illegal. The consent largely discussed above is actual consent in rape allegations. An under 16 can actually consent to sexual penetration so such an act would not be rape because she or he cansents in fact but would be sexual assault as she/he cannot consent in law.
The offences are absolute in that since the public interest point is whether given an offence has occoured is there any point ( public interest ) in a prosecution. That is a value judgemeprotect to interpretation.
Finally you and your friends probably rightly know what the facts are re consent but be aware as to how they may in future be twisted . one of the examples I quoted above was charged as a rape campaign on the basis of assertions from a consenting partner who enjoyed it but said she only consented because he had a temper and would sulk if they didn't have sex , verbatim quote from a different case " I did not realise what he was doing was rape until PC x explained consent to me ." For good reason there is a political drive to take child sex reports seriously , common sense is a great safeguard public interest considerations should protect both children here, but ..

I don't know the legalities of the having sex part or how to deal with it, but someone needs to have a stern word with them about the consequences of taking photos/vids etc of their acts or whatever kids do these days. I read a while ago that they can be charged under child porn laws for creating/distributing material and that could have worse impact on their adult life's than some of the other consequences.

Thanks crankboy.

I think the immediate concern about whether they are likely to be prosecuted for what they are doing and so screwing up his / her life 'legally' is largely allayed. Thanks to all who provided clarity on that.

What is reputation worth.... debatable? The parents can argue that with her, I think most are clear that in more mature years she won't necessarily be that proud of her actions, but to an extent it's her reputation to worry about.

As for facilitating ("aid, abet, counsel or procure"). Tough one. I'd hope in enlightened times that supporting an underage daughter to make sure that if she's determined to have sex that at least it's safe wouldn't be seen as aiding and abetting, and it's good to know that it's a judgement rather than a binary issue. You'd also hope that that judgement doesn't have to get to a trial to decide that, in the same way that stoatsbrother said that police intervention isn't mandatory as they're over 13, can they also 'ignore' this even if it is technically an offence. or does it have to be reported for CPS or others?