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Do we really need two words for stew and broth (as a random example)?
Ask a poet or a songwriter.
Like Oasis?
They've got a roll with it.
On the subject of poetry I read an article ages ago that I can't find now, explaining that Dylan Thomas seemed so different in Anglophone poetry circles because he was using rythms and styles from Welsh poetry and language. If we lose languages we lose the things that have been created in those languages.
Language is about thought as much as it is about communication. When I look at Arabic or Japanese writing I am totally aware that it is expressing things beyond the capabilities of Latin text.
Oh - I like that way of describing it. Despite trying to learnt Scots Gaelic my wife will also often baulk at trying to translate from SG to English as it can be too difiicult or impossible to convey the same meaning.
For what it’s worth, sometimes languages live in weird ways.
There are certain forms of Glaswegian English that are actually Gaelic grammar in English words.
The use of the infinitive for example. Subversive
I love subversion.
Do we really need two words for stew and broth (as a random example)?
Yes we do, they are not the same. I just made a chicken broth from the carcass of the roast, some left over dark meat and a load of veg. It isn't a chicken stew.
No, not really. Why would a language die? How does that happen?
Sometimes because the native speakers themselves die out, and there aren’t enough younger people who are interested enough to maintain it. If there’s a will to resurrect a language it can be done, although it means fighting against the cultural imperialism that sought to eradicate it, as happened in Wales and Cornwall. My late partner was born over a pub in the King’s Road, Chelsea, but she learned Welsh to O-Level standard after her folks bought a hotel in Barmouth, where Welsh was part of the curriculum. Due to moving away, and spending most of the rest of her life in England and southern Eiré, she sadly lost much of her fluency, because she just never had another fluent speaker to talk to.
Bless her, she tried really hard to teach me, but I have enough of a problem remembering words in English, let alone a completely different language!
One only has to look at just how destructive that sort of cultural vandalism can be in America and Canada, where the governments of both countries made it illegal for First Nations children to speak and learn their tribal languages, children were forcibly removed from their homes and families and put into schools, where the regimes were brutal. Many hundreds, possibly thousands of children died and were buried without markers on their graves, in what was effectively a form of ethnic segregation and cleansing. There are something like 350 different tribal communities with about as many languages, if not more, and it’s only due to the efforts of a few tribal elders in each nation clandestinely keeping the stories and traditions alive as best they can and whose efforts are now bearing fruit as young tribal members are learning the languages, stories and crafts in order to strengthen the bonds among their communities.
Yes we do, they are not the same. I just made a chicken broth from the carcass of the roast, some left over dark meat and a load of veg. It isn’t a chicken stew.
Looks like a stew to me.
I dunno, it was just the first thing I thought of, for no good reason. It's not really important, point was that we have multiple words for the same thing (and demonstrably they're still not always unambiguous).
Yes we do, they are not the same. I just made a chicken broth from the carcass of the roast, some left over dark meat and a load of veg. It isn’t a chicken stew.
I agree ^^^
Recently someone was taking the micky with the description for a certain sea food in Borneo related to ... Squid, Cuttlefish and Octopus which in Mandarin can also be further distinguished into eight different categories/types. But in Borneo they are all called "sotong", one single description for all. LOL! IMO this is very bad because the language is no longer able describe accurately. I know our very old language can describe them accurately but most people no longer know them.
French was the official language of England for about 300 years, from 1066 till 1362.
Us Brits are living proof that we can overcome oppression and tyranny. Surely the Celts can do the same if they wanted and grouped together.
I dunno, it was just the first thing I thought of, for no good reason. It’s not really important, point was that we have multiple words for the same thing
Problem in this case is they are similar things so whilst the extremes would clearly be one or the other you have some variants which could be classed as either.
@mandog Well since the Britons were based in modern day Wales /North England/South West Scotland.Yet you refer to the French speaking part of England. I'm not really sure what kind of a Briton you are. Are you an Angle? Saxon? Dane? Or maybe you're a Norman? 😀
Problem in this case is they are similar things so whilst the extremes would clearly be one or the other you have some variants which could be classed as either.
Quite. So... our "rich" language is still insufficient?
Us Brits are living proof that we can overcome oppression and tyranny. Surely the Celts can do the same if they wanted and grouped together.
Well the context was quite different. English becoming widespread was a political process by the elites. But the eradication of Welsh for example was a policy imposed from outside Wales. When a dominant group wants to stamp out a minority group there are lots of reasons for it and lots of ways to do it. It gets complex.
So… our “rich” language is still insufficient?
Insufficient for what? Our language guides and shapes out thoughts and feelings as we introspect and talk to others. With different concepts available in language, we do that process differently. Self expression is hugely complex, human emotion is far bigger than can be expressed in any language which is why we have art and music and so on. It's why poetry is different to prose. No language can cover everything, but different languages have different concepts, contexts and constructs.
Here's an example: Look at transgender arguments. People are objecting to using non-binary pronouns, for example, saying it's nonsense and that you can only be a man or a woman. Well, the science doesn't really back that up but people think it's binary because our langauge only has two genders. Other languages have three. If English had always had three, there'd be absolutely no issue with being the third gender. You'd just refer to someone as 'herm' or whatever and the whole issue would never have existed. We'd always have had three sets of toilets. Our language defines our thoughts. Even if you accept the concept of being non-binary, you'll no doubt view it as a positive and progressive thing, and be a bit proud of yourself for doing that. You wouldn't, if we had always had three genders because it would be completely normal.
In Korean shows again, there are often extended scenes where people discuss who's older than whom. Well, it turns out that there's a complex series of honorifics that you have to use depending on whether someone is older or younger or more or less senior in an environment. Now, this means that it's a thing, that it's an issue. In the workplace, more senior and older people have rank just because they are older. That means you are under pressure to defer to them. Can you imagine overruling a colleague in a UK business just because they're 2 years older than you?
In 100 years we'll all have light brown skin and speak Esperanto. It all started with the introduction of the railways and the standardisation of time zones.
Us Brits are living proof that we can overcome oppression and tyranny.
Brits are living proof of an inability to resist invasion and the subservient acceptance of foreign invader languages.
Until one province of France conquered and put a stop to all further invasions.
Rosbif-eating surrender monkeys.
the subservient acceptance of foreign invader languages.
Ehh.. not quite how it works 🙂
Until one province of France conquered and put a stop to all further invasions.
Also not what happened...
Ehh.. not quite how it works
Of course it is. When was the last time you heard someone speak Brythonic in the UK Parliament?
And I'll remind you that Parliament is a French word.
Brought over when a French province invaded and conquered Britian.
Edit: Even the motto of your King Charles is in French ffs.
people think it’s binary because our langauge only has two genders. Other languages have three.
We have three also. Though some folk might object to being referred to as "it."
"Them" is perfectly functional. I take your point, but (like mine earlier) I don't think it's the greatest example.
Cafe, restaurant, deja vu, croissant
All French...who knew?
We have three also.
No, we don't. It is not for people and them was historicallyfor plural, generally. Not the same thing as languages that really do have three specific genders.
Do we really need two words for stew and broth
Of course we do, because you can't "broth over a problem". The world would be a very dull place if we all spoke the same, and thought in the same way.
molgrips Full Member
@ernie good grief.
I was referring to your use of the words ‘subservient acceptance’.
You think it was forced? Well I reckon "Dieu et mon droit" could now be replaced with a Brythonic phrase fitting of a country which has "overcome oppression and tyranny".
Btw your "good grief" comment suggests that you are perhaps taking this subject a tad seriously. Please don't take offense - none intended.
Until one province of France conquered and put a stop to all further invasions.
Who were in fact descendants of Scandinavians, occupying land that was Gaul Celticia/Belgica, but had in turn been conquered by Italians, who were themselves originally Greeks and Croatians
Given that Greek is one of the oldest surviving languages still spoken (largely unchanged) for about 3500 years, perhaps we ought to have a go at that?
Plus of course, The Normans didn't "put a stop to all further invasions"
Actually I am not sure that the majority of the invasion force was even Norman, it also included Bretons, Flemish, and other French troops. The invasion was however by a French speaking province of France.
What further invasions of Britian after the Normans are you thinking of - the Nazis invasion of the Channel Islands?
Btw your “good grief” comment suggests that you are perhaps taking this subject a tad seriously. Please don’t take offense – none intended.
It refers to your tendency to agonise over small details to the detriment of the thread...
The Normans conquered and made themselves the elite, bringing Norman French with them. The existing inhabitants of England didn't accept French, they carried on speaking Old English which is why after a few hundred years the elites eventually assimilated into English, not the other way round. That's why you and I are speaking English now and not French.
Brythonic (and Gwydelic) languages persisted in other parts of the British Isles and still do today.
Also, Normandy was not a province of France in 1066, I don't think, that happened later.
Finally, the last successful invasion of England was in 1688 by the Dutch.
The Normans were Vikings as in 'Norse Men'.
Haven’t read the whole thread so apologies if this has already been said.
Seems to me that some languages serve greater purpose as a symbol of oppression than as working tongues with actual everyday utility.
Not saying that that doesn’t give them another perfectly valid utility, just an observation.
My tuppenceworth (a phrase I love but not actually necessary for effective communication). From the utilitarian point of view of communication, business, science etc then it makes sense for us all to speak one language. And realistically that language would be English. English is already the 'lingua franca', a phrase that hopefully winds the French up (-:
But however we would lose so so much if other languages were allowed to die out. Languages aren't a direct word for word translation of one to the other. They all have their nuances and subtleties that can't always be conveyed easily by translation. For example the Scots word (and yes, Scots is probably more a dialect than language) 'dreich' is a lovely word that can't be fully appreciated by an English translation.
The OP mentioned Scots Gaelic (and by the way up here it's pronounced 'Gah-lic, and we spell whisky properly, whereas our cousins over the water pronounce it 'Gay-lic, and don't). Whisky is another great example in fact. In Gaelic it's 'uisge beatha' which literally means 'water of life'. You can see where their priorities lay!!
And languages can be a thing of art too. Even if you don't understand a word, try listening to someone like Julie Fowlis singing Gaelic songs. Absolutely beautiful. I only know a couple of dozen words of Gaelic, mostly connected to mountains. Even there you see how much is lost in translation. I'd much rather say I've just climbed Sgurr Dubh More than the Big Black Peak.
And there's comedy, much which revolves round puns and word play that would never work when translated.
So overall yes, we definitely should keep languages alive.
No, we don’t. It is not for people
Why not? 'It' feels impersonal perhaps but that's only because we don't generally use it to refer to people as there's been little need. It's only relative recently that we've become, for want of a better word, "woke" about gender issues. You likely wouldn't think twice about saying 'it' to refer to a dog or cat of unknown sex.
and them was historicallyfor plural, generally.
I don't believe this is correct. Rather it's the other way around, the singular form was once common but has fallen into disuse. (I'd have to look it up to be 100% certain though.)
In any case, it's a moot argument. You could say similar of 'you,' you is a plural and using it as a singular form of address is a relatively modern phenomenon. The singular form is thee / thou (and still persists in some corners, my uncle might have enquired as to my movements with "weer's thi bin?").
If we can cope with the almost universal acceptance of 'you' in the singular in the space of a generation or so, we can do the same with 'them'.
We can but that wasn't my point at all. I was trying to demonstrate that our language defines how we think, to an extent which can be significant. This means that linguistic diversity should be preserved in a living sense not simply an academic one.
The OP mentioned Scots Gaelic (and by the way up here it’s pronounced ‘Gah-lic, and we spell whisky properly, whereas our cousins over the water pronounce it ‘Gay-lic, and don’t). Whisky is another great example in fact. In Gaelic it’s ‘uisge beatha’ which literally means ‘water of life’. You can see where their priorities lay!!
Apocryphally perhaps, the Irish spell whisky as 'whiskey' to differentiate their product from the crap the Scots were turning out at the time.
Sgurr Dubh Mor not Sgurr Dubh More. Stupid autocorrect that doesn't speak Gaelic!!
Apocryphally perhaps, the Irish spell whisky as ‘whiskey’ to differentiate their product from the crap the Scots were turning out at the time.
Interesting. I wasn't actually aware of that. Must go check it out. I did have my tongue very much in my cheek though, for sake of clarity.
I almost added "so don't think you're special" but didn't want you to take it the wrong way. (-:
The Irish spell it Whiskey because that's how someone wrote out the word according to their English.
Is being able to speak Gaelic / Welsh / Manx / Cornish / etc a vital part of an area’s heritage, or is it time we just let them die and strive towards a common language which everyone can understand globally?
I think the original question conflates two issues - whether language is important to heritage, and whether a single, unified language is desirable.
I think it is beneficial for anyone to learn a second language to the point of basic fluency:
Having only one language is like spending your life with one eye shut - sure, you can see everything that you need to, and get by perfectly well... However it's almost impossible for anyone to describe to you what you're missing in terms you can understand if you have only ever looked through one eye.
A second language (whatever it is) opens your other eye; gives you a perspective and makes you realise that concepts can be broader than the language used to describe them.
Languages aren’t a direct word for word translation of one to the other. They all have their nuances and subtleties that can’t always be conveyed easily by translation.
^Exactly that - IME it's a difficult concept for monoglots to appreciate: i.e. They expect other languages to have a direct 1:1 equivalent of the (usually) 'English' word that carries the same connotations.
I consider that Welsh, Gaelic, etc. serve the purpose of 'opening the other eye' as well as any other language. In the areas that they are taught, they have the fantastic benefit of native speakers being around; place names and signage and history in the language, TV programmes in the language (less of a argument now with on-line streaming) and cultural links to the area which (IMHO) make it a less sterile experience than learning (say) a European language. In addition, it serves to keep the culture alive.
I learned Welsh at school and was once fluent. There are stories and legends that were first recorded in the 12th century that are still readable and reference place names that are still in use.
Bottom line: Everyone should be taught a second language to the point of fluency from an early age. If that's relevant to the culture of their area, then all the better.
It refers to your tendency to agonise over small details
LOL! oh the ironing. Lighten up fella, some of what I said might not have been entirely serious or factually precise. It was in reference to the claim that Brits had "overcome oppression and tyranny”, a comment which I assumed was also not intended to be taken entirely seriously.
I am serious about English being rich in vocabulary due to successive foreign invasion though. I was actually agreeing with your claim that English has "an unusually large number" of synonyms.
They expect other languages to have a direct 1:1 equivalent of the (usually) ‘English’ word that carries the same connotations.
Is that actually true? (genuine question, I don't know)
I'd have thought it perhaps true of folk who've never given it a second thought, but surely most people know that foreign languages aren't just direct word substitution? Or am I giving folk too much credit?
Someone mentioned jokes earlier. Idioms clearly don't translate well - tell a French person that it's raining cats and dogs and they'd be like "les chats et les chiens... quoi?" Or sometimes, jokes rely on it. A guy I used to work with often referred to his "autoschlussel hosen" - khaki trousers.
(apologies for any grammatical crimes against language there, it's been a while)
... now I'm thinking we need a foreign language humour thread.
Is that actually true? (genuine question, I don’t know)
In my experience (as qualified above) it seems to be quite common - e.g. *insert language here* has X words for YYYY (e.g. rain, snow, fish, whatever):
They probably don't - It's likely that there are X words in that language that convey differing meanings in the native language which are reduced to one in English (with the resultant loss of context or nuance).
What Tillydog said ^^ 'They' don't have 20 words for snow. They have a word for wet snow, a word for old snow, a word for dry powdery snow you can't make snowballs from etc etc etc. All things we are familiar with (well, most of) but we don't have single words for them.
This conveys a deeper understanding and experience of snow. It's a bit like me calling it 'wine', someone else calling it a Pinot Noir, someone else calling it a Burgundy Pinot Noir etc etc.
Spent time in North Wales this summer and was delighted and amazed at how strong the use of their language is and how it seemed to unify and reinforce their cultural identity. As a non Gaelic speaking Scot it made me feel great a respect for Wales and a desire for Scots Gaelic to have a renaissance.
There are still a smattering of Gaelic speakers here and they do teach it in the schools and it is part of the cultural identity of these Highlands and Islands. Similarly, there are other Scots dialects such as Doric and Lallands with efforts to preserve them too. The problem with a lot of what people believe to be contemporary Scottish history is just romantic nonsense dreamt up by people like Sir Walter Scott for an Anglicised Victorian audience.
If you like the natural environment and looking at place names sometimes the language helps to bring the geography to life. I’m a part-time postie, there are no street names or numbers, just house names many in Gaelic. I have 2 houses not far apart that are translated of “the house on the rock” and “the house of the rock”.
Not the same thing as languages that really do have three specific genders.
What are these three genders and which languages?
Hawaiian is one.
German has. Der, die, das. Approximately, he, she, it. I expect Germanic descendent languages to be similar.
I can't remember though whether it's like French where everything is either masculine of feminine so you get rampant lunacy like tables are all female. Like I say, it's been a while!
Those are grammatical genders though not personal genders, they don't bear any relation to personal gender.
German has. Der, die, das. Approximately, he, she, it.
VERY approximate. Many "inanimate objects" are Der or Die.
What are these three genders and which languages?
Hawaiian is one.
Is that a language or a gender?
Old English had male, female and neuter including nouns for women across all 3 genders!
Is that a language or a gender?
It's a pizza.
Why should we keep languages alive?
Simply, it means everything to its speakers. My son’s grandparents were among the founders of an illegal Basque school under Franco, where teaching in Basque would land you in prison. The school started in a basement, and now has over 2000 students including my son. Spanish is taught as a foreign language at age 8.
Ive also met people in Wales and abroad, and once you’ve had a conversation in Welsh, the contact is often maintained. The connection goes deeper and is something that people who solely speak English can often miss.
As a non-Hindi speaker of dual Mauritian and English heritage, I wish that my own father had maintained an environment were that was important. I sometimes feel remote from part of my culture.
As he was multi-lingual himself, fluent in Hindi, French, English and Creole from birth and also fluent in the related languages of Urdu and Punjab - as well as familiar with spoken Cantonese, I don’t think he believed it valuable in the west. His own father ensured that they all spoke Hindi, English, French and Creole from birth…
Yeah, not everyone who speaks many languages thinks it's valuable. You may at first think it's just for communication, but you may also realise what's lost after you've lost it.
My great-grandparents were native Welsh speakers, they were farmers from a farming family who were pre-industrial inhabitants of the South Wales Valleys. They didn't speak Welsh to my grandmother because they thought she needed to speak English to get ahead in life and speaking Welsh would be a disadvantage. Imagine thinking that about your own language?
Languages aren’t a direct word for word translation of one to the other. They all have their nuances and subtleties that can’t always be conveyed easily by translation.
Yep - discovering this all the time with French, endlessly told I'm writing English phrases in French, which no French person would ever say as they just don't use the same sentence structures.
I'd never realised that after learning all the vocab and grammar, you have to learn all the sentence structures in order to use a language.
Then you have the fact that the past tenses aren't exactly equivalent - then the subjunctive which we don't really have.
It's not just the sentence structure, it's the things people say that are also different.
In Finland, I'd be served in a cafe or shop in English and people would give me something and say 'here you are' which always sounded rather odd. It's the closest translation of the Finnish phrase 'Ole hyvaa' which they always say when someone gives you something. My colleagues would ask what the best translation would be, and I was at a loss. We do speak during these transactions in the UK, but we don't always say the same thing. They had trouble understanding this, they expected there to be a specific phrase.
In French, it would translate to 'voilà' quite easily.
then the subjunctive which we don’t really have.
If only that were true.
Am fear a dh' fheitheas fada gu leoir air an aiseag, ghabh e thairis uaireigin . This is from an old gaelic postcard. It says "He who waits long enough at the pier will get across sometime" It is an old joke about ferries, but that is not all it's also a comment about a people who were conditioned to believe that their needs were "less important" than those of the ferry company, the laird and even the "visitors". I suggest that this is an example of a literal translation missing a great deal of the meaning.
then the subjunctive which we don’t really have.
If only that were true.
Except you're not using a different tense (French has four tenses which are exclusive to the subjunctive).
It’s not just the sentence structure, it’s the things people say that are also different.
That's sort of what I mean.
Take "How are you?" which in French is "Ca va?"
Ignoring the fact the verb isn't the same, in French the subject of the question 'you' doesn't even appear in the phrase - it's an impersonal construct i.e. 'it'. They use it quite often (compared to in English).
Lots of other subtle differences, eg some adjectives can change meaning depending on whether they appear before or after the noun eg "mes propres mains propres" = "my own clean hands"
My great-grandparents were native Welsh speakers, they were farmers from a farming family who were pre-industrial inhabitants of the South Wales Valleys.
I worked with someone who was a native South-East Walean Welsh-speaker (ie not a Welsh-speaking incomer from another part of Wales, or a learner). Apparently there was a distinct accent (a bit like the way Cardiffians speak English apparently) and way of using Welsh. I guess it must be quite rare now, with all the churn of population in the Valleys and Cardiff.
… now I’m thinking we need a foreign language humour thread.
One of my greatest linguistic achievements (to be fair, the bar is set very low) was understanding a joke in a French language Asterix book that wouldn't have made sense in English. Though Mrs Kenny did question my claim to be "fully engaging with Gallic literature".
Oh and as this is (in theory at least) a cycling forum, the 1980 version of one of the spring classics was run in such awful weather it became known as Niege Bastogne Niege.
Although I have never been to my maternal grandma ancestral land, I spoke to someone from that region using the same language and we were very surprised that we could understand each other very well (think the same too ... scary). At other times I met some old folks in the UK who migrated from HK, when I spoke to them in their traditional language they were all very happy.
Language can save your life too. During the emergency of Malaya my father was carrying his wounded senior officer (he was from Malay royal lineage , one of the Sultan's uncle) after their 3 trucks loads were mowed down by the communists ambush. All dead except my father and his officer. While escaping carrying the wounded officer they were stopped / captured by female communists. They were going to be executed but when the communists and their leader were having a conversation as to who should execute them, my father overheard their conversation (Southern Thai language) and started to interrupt them. Their leader was surprised to hear my father accent and started to question my father. Well, long story short they came from the same ancestral village and the leader let them go. They were puzzled that father was fighting for the British and asked him to join them but my father declined and they let them go. Oh ya ... my father torn the stripes off the officer to save his life too. If they knew he was an officer they would have shot him on the spot. (to one of the Northern State Sultan, my father save your uncle's life. If you can recall your uncle walking with a limp or one of his arm is not working properly due to injury from the war, that's because my father save his life)
I guess it must be quite rare now, with all the churn of population in the Valleys and Cardiff.
Yeah, plenty of Welsh speakers in Cardiff but as far as I can tell most of them are from other parts of Wales at some point in their history. Which makes sense, since Cardiff was tiny 150 years ago and is now much much larger due to immigration from Wales, the UK and the rest of the world.
Ignoring the fact the verb isn’t the same, in French the subject of the question ‘you’ doesn’t even appear in the phrase – it’s an impersonal construct i.e. ‘it’. They use it quite often (compared to in English).
I always equate that to 'how's it going?' which is quite common in English.
Except you’re not using a different tense
No I know. It's there as a concept in English, just not the same.
Oh and as this is (in theory at least) a cycling forum, the 1980 version of one of the spring classics was run in such awful weather it became known as Niege Bastogne Niege.
I love that one 🙂
I always equate that to ‘how’s it going?’ which is quite common in English.
They use it all the time eg "Do you like it?" - "ça te plaît?" - the subtlety is the subject and object are inverted in the French version, another impersonal construct.
The upshot is knowing all the nouns and verbs won't actually get you very far in terms of composition - great for comprehension, but only half the story.
What further invasions of Britian after the Normans are you thinking of – the Nazis invasion of the Channel Islands?
Yes, that, but the Glorious Revolution was in my mind, William 3rd landing in Devon? (I think) and having a battle with James 2nd - Battle of Reading, forcing James into exile in France.
Fairy nuff. I've always thought of Dutch involvement as an intervention into internal English Catholic/Protestant/Royal affairs rather than an invasion. As I understand it plenty of English supported William of Orange, unlike invasions from the Romans, Saxons, Danes, etc.
But it's not a subject that I have any significant knowledge of - I don't recall my Catholic provided education ever covering it. Although perhaps I just missed the lessons.
There's actually been way more than I thought A whole Wikipedia page of the times we've been invaded. TBH, I didn't know about half of these.
I like languages. Letting them die is the alternative to keeping them alive so keeping them alive seems more positive. Kids who are brought up to speak two or more languages are brighter. What's not to like?
Thoughts for Footflaps. 😉
How are you? Comment vas-tu ?
How's tricks? - impersonal in English like ça va ?
Mes mains sont propres - Traduction avec un verbe livrée en main propre
Est-ce que tu aime ça ? without the "Est-ce que" you have to listen for intonation to know if it's a genuine question or an expression of surprise that you like that shit. T'aime ça ?!
Ca te plait ? / Ca t'a plu ? I associate with experiences such as when leaving the cinéma or a massage.
As I understand it plenty of English supported William of Orange, unlike invasions from the Romans, Saxons, Danes, etc.
In those cases there was generally some support as well (it was a speciality of the Romans to get some locals on side and then invade to "help" them out. For Saxons and Danes in some cases it was the problem of if you hire mercenaries to fight for you what happens when you dont want to pay them any longer?).
With regards to the glorious revolution its worth noting that in Holland it is generally classed as a successful invasion.
I would go for it sits in the middle with William taking advantage of internal unrest to launch an invasion but compromising with the "rebels" to maximise his chances which in turn led to restrictions on his powers.
you have to listen for intonation to know if it’s a genuine question
I believe Greek is like that with a statment and a question being phrased the same with the difference being in the intonation. I am no expert though so could be wrong and it may just be a casual thing, of course we do that in English as well.
of course we do that in English as well.
We also do the opposite and turn questions into statements, don't we.
And I guess Gaelic is a prime example.
It's a good example in the counter as well as it ends up burying cultural languages is the rest of Scotland that never spoke Gaelic such as Erse and Doric.
It’s not just the sentence structure, it’s the things people say that are also different.
Not just languages. Accents, and codes also.
Getting back to dead languages. At University I got into translating Sumerian tablets* Mostly they were about grain harvests and IOUs and dull shit like that, but occasionally you'd see one that had been used by perhaps a kid practising his writing, some of them are even corrected by teachers, some of them have jokes on the reverse of them, some of them are literally just shopping lists. But the thing that leaps out at you is just folks going about their day, they didn't have in their minds that these would be studied at universities by bored UGs, and that's how languages are to me, on the face of it, they're confusing and a block to communication, but when you get past that, it's mostly just folks talking about their day, or whatever, the shared expressions of everyday life.
*How the dark winter evenings flew by
Here’s a clear example of just how important it is for indigenous people to be allowed to keep their culture and language, especially when there’s no written equivalent. Stories handed down through the generations by Australian Aboriginal tribes have now been proven to show clear evidence of climate change and rising sea levels from 7000 years ago.
Here’s another example of the importance of language, both spoken, as in tracing family and tribal relationships and histories, and when a written language is created specifically to work with a spoken language where none existed before, and avoidance of an introduced foreign language.
https://www.history.com/news/cherokee-sequoyah-written-language
Getting back to dead languages. At University I got into translating Sumerian tablets
Many years ago I worked on a book called ‘The Land Of Pars’, a translation of an original Persian book by a lovely gentleman by the name of Reverend Ralph Norman Sharpe. It was all about the ruins dotted around Persia, with examples of texts in Cuniform, Arabic and English. Rev. Sharpe would bring in these bits of card which were actually made up of individual characters in the different scripts that he cut out by hand and stuck onto card, which I had to make a photographic copy of, called a PMT, (photo-mechanical transfer), carefully paint out all the dark shadows between the individual characters, then paste them into the pages of text as I went. I spent months on it, the dear old boy wasn’t in any great rush! Fascinating to see someone who could understand the inscriptions as he was translating the book. I’ve still got a copy around here somewhere.
Just done a search, there’s a copy on Amazon for £130-odd.
Land of Pars: Historical Monuments and the Archaeological Sites of the Province of Fars https://amzn.eu/d/8YRYfSU