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“Free-ranging cats are likely the single largest source of anthropogenic mortality for US birds and mammals...”
https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2380
Our cat has not got a US visa nor funds to fly across the Atlantic.
I don’t have a cat, nor do I have any intention of ever having one, being allergic to them is one reason, however there are at least five neighbourhood cats who seem to consider my garden to be their property, my g/f even found one in our kitchen one day!
Unfortunately she’s vetoed my plans to shoot the little bastards, and my attempts to scare the little shits away tend to be temporary.
At least I’ve managed to stop them stealing the hedgehogs food I put out, if only I could stop them trying to kill all the birds I feed. 🤬
I have three cats. They barely even leave the back garden let alone terrorise the local bird population. Don't demonise cats as a species. There are lots of bad people in the world, that doesn't make people bad.
Our cat has not got a US visa nor funds to fly across the Atlantic.
I’m going to hazard a guess that British cats are just as good at killing birds as American ones.
There are lots of bad people in the world, that doesn’t make people bad.
I beg to differ - but you’re right of course. If you can keep your cats on your own property then the impact to biodiversity is going to be smaller. You know, as long as they aren’t murdering lots of birds or you live right next to an SSI or RSPB reserve or something. I do question whether domestic cats should be allowed to wonder from people’s properties in light of the above article.
I’ve met a lot of cats that are lazy and/or just follow their owners everywhere - who do not wonder outside - is this due to their socialisation? Perhaps the answer is to look at how this can be encouraged?
I can sympathise, because I quite like cats and always have been an animal person. I should have placed a question mark in the title of this thread.
The RSPB have a different view on this.
There's no link to the mammalian societies study, so unfortunately we do not know how rigorous those "estimates" are Drac. 2.7 million birds killed seems a remarkably low number compared to the study published in Nature - do the yanks have 1000x more cats than we do?
"We estimate that free-ranging domestic cats kill 1.3–4.0 billion birds and 6.3–22.3 billion mammals annually."
I guess that "and that un-owned cats cause the majority of this mortality." - we don't have such a big problem with strays do we?
if only I could stop them trying to kill all the birds I feed. 🤬
You need a "toby", he dislikes cats especially when they come onto his territory as he's then allowed to get them off any way he likes which for him usually involves a mouthful of cat shook vigorously till they get the message.
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And this is just one of his mates he's managed to save from a cat, "jake" the baby crow who after 6 weeks of recovery eventually managed to fly away, he used to hop around the garden and the house following toby everywhere till his wing healed
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Ours only goes outside when we do and stays close.
She shows no interest in birds although tries to play with foxes that come up to our glass doors and growls at squirrels who she sees them through the doors.
Quite a few cats where I live and loads of birds in my garden. The cat population are either no good at catching birds or the birds are keeping their numbers up to accommodate (as would be expected being nature and all that)
I could actually do with less sparrows as they make a mess of my thatched roof...
Seem to have half the population of sparrows in my garden. Don't mind a few less if it reduces the noise at feeding time crack of dawn and early evening. One of the neighbours cats sits in the bush many of them seem to live in and saw it catch one other week. Spent ages playing with its dinner, throwing it in the air, catching it and jumping about. Only remains was a head. Nice looking cat, very curious, friendly.
man with agenda against cats ignores RSPB report saying cats are not to blame to decline in bird numbers.
First port of call for fall in bird numbers is brer farmer, use of pesticides reducing food, ripping out hedges takes away habitat.
I like Toby, what breed is he?
We have cats in my garden, but they're to fat and stupid to catch birds. The squirrels do get some of their eggs, though.
I also like Toby, is he on Instagram?
“Free-ranging cats are likely the single largest source of anthropogenic mortality for US birds and mammals…”
Ever heard of Passenger Pigeons?
On the Tube they are "fare evading scum pigeons"
RSPB in "don't upset the donors" report shocka
As with anything the actual reasons for decline in small birds and mammals will be complex, however denying that domestic and feral former domestic cats have an impact is flat earthing.
They’re not denying it they’re saying it’s not significant are the donors all cat owners?
Are cats part of the eco-system of birds natural predetors in this day-and-age ?
Would stopping cats killing birds result in a butterfly-flaps-his-wings type chaos apocalypse of bird over population.
I've seen "The Birds" and I don't fancy that - I think an overpopulation of cats would be easier to deal with.
Our cat recoils in horror if you open the doors. If she goes out that means 5 minutes sitting on the deck then wandering back to her bed.
Don’t think she’s a threat to the local bird population.
She did bring a dead bat in once. We could only think it flew into her mouth when she was yawning.
They’re not denying it they’re saying it’s not significant are the donors all cat owners?
Lots of people claim to be 'animal lovers', while conveniently ignoring the animal deaths they are causing.
🤔
Factors affecting woodland birds
The declines in woodland birds have several known and potential causes, such as a lack of woodland management (including the cessation of traditional practices such as coppicing) and increased deer browsing pressure, both of which result in a reduced diversity of woodland structure and reduced availability of suitable nesting and foraging habitats. Changes in farmland management, such as the removal of hedgerows, adversely impacted many of the species in the indicator which have substantial populations outside of woodland e.g. in farmland. In addition, several declining woodland birds are long- distance migrants, and a decline in the extent or quality of habitats used outside of the UK in the non-breeding season (in stop-over sites or African wintering areas) may be a significant factor affecting these species. Positive factors include the increasing area of woodland cover and milder winters potentially having a positive impact for some species.
Hmmm. We've got two cats.
One never catches a thing. Once a bird flew down into the garden inadvertently close to her and she looked completely bewildered about what to do.
The other cat is a hunter supremo and it is the main reason I am against having any more.
Mice and other small mammals are regularly caught, as are all manner of birds and probably 5 or 6 squirrels a yr.
He's a lovely cat, just a monster predator...
If humans weren't around would these birds have no natural predators ?
rubbish - maybe we need to kill more of them to restore the natural order of things ?
It's easy to blame cats if you're not a fan of cats. Ours bring in probably 5-10 birds a year, plus mice, frogs etc. Which I often have to rescue and take to the nearest safe hedge.
The Rspb don't deny the effect, and say around 27 million birds (not 2.7m as mentioned earlier) a year are killed. They just say the evidence doesn't support that it's a significant enough amount to have an effect on declining populations.
I would hazard a guess that it's humans having the most effect i.e. farm land, industrialisation, house building etc
Easier to blame cats though...
Couple things here, bro..
The cats in America, how many have nra membership? This smells like a liberal elite conspiracy.
Secondly, there has been a big decline in people getting their cats spayed/neutered (vet confirmed whenever I brought my two in a few months ago). We have a few huge, nasty tom cats on our street and they still have their danglers.
I have to agree after having 2 black and white killing machines for the best part of 15 yrs. Garden birds, pigeons, Koi Carp, mice, voles, moles and a neighbours domestic rabbit! Nothing was safe. Sorry but there is no way you can just keep a cat in your garden, that is wishful thinking. We will never have another cat. Some are obviously worse than others. If I had a farm and I wanted to keep vermin down there is nothing better.
5-10 a year amateurs. Plus the 100 + they kill that you don’t see. Ours would bring in several a week in the summer. They liked to strip them in the bathroom, considerate really as it was easy to clean the blood and feathers up. Barstools.
“Free-ranging cats are likely the single largest source of anthropogenic mortality for US birds and mammals…”
I think they need to focus a bit more on the effect "humans" have on the natural world before blaming cats.
4 cats all indoors (outside cat run) - 2 posh ones, one rescue with cat flu, and an old one who can't see very well.
I don't think anyone is blaming the cats....just the humans who own them.
Cat and dog owners in general have become a right pita for local wildlife and affect the quality of life of those who don't have animals but live near those that do.
I've lost count of the hundreds of times dogs have jumped up at me or my family, run into a picnic slobbering and sniffing, barked or snarled or lunged at me on my bike etc and this is before we even get to night barking, dog excrement and poo bags everywhere.
Cats are just as bad, crapping on lawns, killing wildlife and costing owners 1000's in vetbills or insurance.
Pets are a total nightmare but they aren't going anywhere so owners just need to accept they really are part of a large problem and help in any way they can to mitigate it instead of denying it and assuring everyone that their particular animal is a saint.
At least I’ve managed to stop them stealing the hedgehogs food I put out, if only I could stop them trying to kill all the birds I feed. 🤬
We use cat / fox proof feeders, very simple design...
Here's a tiny autumn juvenile feeding in one of our feeders..
[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/31337/48821204422_334775b6cf_c.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/31337/48821204422_334775b6cf_c.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/2hoaraQ ]Baby Hedgehog in feeder[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/brf/ ]Ben Freeman[/url], on Flickr
and a fox trying his luck. I've since built up the brick pile in front so he can't get in. The chicken wire pen was for HH orientation for when we get them from the local HH hospital. They spend a week in the pen before being released into the local gardens...
[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/31337/48820698508_a383b8290a_c.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/31337/48820698508_a383b8290a_c.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/2ho7QMb ]Fox and HH feed station[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/brf/ ]Ben Freeman[/url], on Flickr
On the 3 or 4 occasions one of mine has got out of the garden he has basically sat on the other side of the fence meowing to come back, and I have to put a piece of latticework over the fence for him to use as a ladder to get back up the fence.
Another time he managed to thrown himself out of an upstairs window and I found him the next morning cowering under the car with badly strained leg.
The other one jumped out the bathroom window a few weeks ago and then proceeded to just meow for hours until I rescued her from a sloped roof that ends about 8ft above the ground (and 50% grass at that).
The only risk to birds they present is if a bird could die laughing at their incompetance.
Both British Short Hairs - one a blue and one lilac.
Great work footflaps.
Pets are a total nightmare but they aren’t going anywhere so owners just need to accept they really are part of a large problem and help in any way they can to mitigate it instead of denying it and assuring everyone that their particular animal is a saint.
Dog owners don’t have an excuse at all, it is relatively easy to stop a dog ****ing up wildlife. Walk it in areas where it won’t disturb things like ground nesting birds or keep it on a lead.
As an ex-country bumpkin gun dog owning type, the amount of Londoners in my area who have completely unsuitable dogs, bulldogs, Akita’s, huskies and who wonder why they can’t train them is ridiculous. Quit buying dogs you don’t have the experience or time to train and buy a ****ing miniature poodle. I taught my parents poodle to play dead and high five in a Few hours when she was 5 months old - and these people can’t teach their dog not to shit inside their house or apartment.
Walk it in areas where it won’t disturb things like ground nesting birds or keep it on a lead
I love practical ideas, me!
My old girl used to kill stuff. I even started an outrrrraaaageous thread once 😳 ... But like, even the hunter/killer that she was, she was responsible for 2 birds, 1 fox and a rabbit (that I knew about), I don't think it changed the ecosystem.
During the warmer months our cat turns semi ferral, comes to the back door for food, but won't come and if it does it'll stress till its outside again, and unfortunately it'll boss any car on the street and is an excellent hunter killer lol, and this is a cat that was a house cat for six years 🙄
More or less did an episode on this. Basically it’s bollocks. Though our idiot cat says otherwise and keeps bring us presents which really pisses me off.
Was gutted to have to watch one of our cats eat the local Robin for breakfast the other day. Very sad occasion.
If humans weren’t around would these birds have no natural predators ?
rubbish – maybe we need to kill more of them to restore the natural order of things ?
😳 British native birds have seen population numbers plummet by up to 90-95% in many instances!
I get five or six different cats from the flats over he back, and from houses a fair way down the road, who have much bigger gardens than I have. What they likely don’t do is feed the birds, like I do, so the cats come where the birds are relatively abundant, although that’s a relative term...
I’ve actually got a hedgehog feeding station a bit like footflaps has, except mine has three boxes set up with the entrances facing one another, and a cover over the centre, and a gap between just big enough for hedgehogs to squeeze through, and a bloody cat still squeezed inside! I’ve had to add an extra piece in each entrance to reduce the gap height, which has done the trick now. A lot of phaffing around though.
This is my oggie feeding station, the latest mod reduces the height of the gaps by half, there is one feeding inside the middle box...
Cats are bastards, I totally agree.
The all-powerful cat lobby won't let us do anything about it though, unfortunately.
As long as there is any significant impact on population of birds from lack of food/habitat then cat predation has no net impact on the numbers.
Eg if habitat is degraded so it can only support 100 birds and there are currently 200 - then it doesn't matter if cats kill 50 birds, the other 50 will still starve. If there are no cats 100 will starve
That is the point RSPB are making
British native birds have seen population numbers plummet by up to 90-95% in many instances!
I'd love to hear more about this 🙂
I love practical ideas, me!
My old girl used to kill stuff. I even started an outrrrraaaageous thread once 😳 … But like, even the hunter/killer that she was, she was responsible for 2 birds, 1 fox and a rabbit (that I knew about), I don’t think it changed the ecosystem.
They don’t have to kill ground neting birds to **** things up. They simply have to scare them when they have chicks.
The all-powerful cat lobby
Well that's a new one...
climate change:
use less fossil fuel, turn your car off when stationary, every little helps!
pollution and waste:
avoid plastics, reduce reuse recycle, every little helps!
energy use:
turn your lights off every time you leave the room, use energy saving bulbs, every little helps!
pets killing wildlife:
they probably would have died anyway, cats don't like being locked up, what about all the other things done by everyone else!
Consistency isn't everything but it's really obvious when its absent.
Could birds stay away from freshly cleaned cars? Asking for a friend.
my cats approve the OP's message
Round here its the all houses being built on green field sites plus the loss of existing garden hedges/trees that's really shafting the bird population (and deer, and hedge hog etc.)
@somafunk - I too have a dog very much like Toby, his name is Frank and he loves birds but seems to hate cats ("good boy Frank, good boy...")
We rarely see neighbourhood cats in our garden anymore as, for a little bundle of fur (he is a Cavachon), he can move pretty fast.
climate change:
use less fossil fuel, turn your car off when stationary, every little helps!
pollution and waste:
avoid plastics, reduce reuse recycle, every little helps!
energy use:
turn your lights off every time you leave the room, use energy saving bulbs, every little helps!
pets killing wildlife:
they probably would have died anyway, cats don’t like being locked up, what about all the other things done by everyone else!Consistency isn’t everything but it’s really obvious when its absent.
While it is definitely good to live by the first three points, they really are utter drops in the ocean compared to the commercial and industrial causes sooo you kind of proved the opposite point with this post.
Someone wants to selectively breed a strain of cat that only catches magpies.
Those monochrome arseholes have wiped out most of the other nesting birds in my garden.
My dog doesn't even shut the door, let alone turn the lights off.
tetrode,
That was my point. Even if it makes a small difference, do it anyway.
Personally i think that cats make a big difference.
Natural predator populations increase and decrease according to the availability of their prey. "Domestic" cats are always there.
Are there more domestic cats now the 30 or 40 years ago? I don't think so. So any decline in the bird population unlikely to be due to cats.
Just put a bell on the cat. Problem solved
Well that’s a new one…
Exactly.
Are there more domestic cats now the 30 or 40 years ago? I don’t think so. So any decline in the bird population unlikely to be due to cats.
A very good point and well presented. I'm wondering what the response will be?
Where I grew up in a grim northern town, everyone kept cats primarily for vermin control. They were hardly considered "pets" back then.
General human activity/consumption (other than pet cat ownership) is a far more likely explanation for any dramatic decline in the bird population.
But a good thread for outing all the cat haters!
"Just put a bell on the cat. Problem solved"
For about 24hrs.
Number of collars with bells bought for my daughters cat = 6
Number of collars with bells deposited in as yet undiscovered locations around the neighbourhood = 6
Are there more domestic cats now the 30 or 40 years ago? I don’t think so. So any decline in the bird population unlikely to be due to cats.
A good argument but it really only holds up if birds are the only prey that domestic cats hunt.
There could be the same amount of cats but the mouse / rat / vole / squirrel / other small squeaky animal populations could have massively declined over that period meaning the cats are more likely to hunt birds instead.
When was the last time you heard of any one with a mouse problem?
My cat did a great job on city pigeons, rats, mice and squirrels - I wanted to get a rebate from Bury council for his pest control services. He's old now and doesn't move quick enough/bother. Never saw him get anything wild bird like.
I'm lobbying very hard for no more cats as replacement for him when he goes, we'll probably end up with a rabbit
+1 Winston - Smokey has a bell, it made him a better hunter because he had to be even more stealth to kill without setting it off!
My cat caught a massive dragonfly. Picked it out of the air. Very proud. Dragonflies are very good at hunting (90% success rate), not so good at being hunted.
Otherwise he only catches the odd mouse. Not bothered about birds other than ones that have fallen out of nests. He lost a chunk out of his ear recently, I suspect a run-in with the squirrel family that live in the big old oak tree.
There could be the same amount of cats but the mouse / rat / vole / squirrel / other small squeaky animal populations could have massively declined over that period meaning the cats are more likely to hunt birds instead.
When was the last time you heard of any one with a mouse problem?
Where I live (in the countryside), there are certainly no shortage of rodents. Two years ago the little furries managed to chew through our water pipes (yes plural) causing a major leak. Now we have mouse traps and poison boxes everywhere to keep them under control. A quick ride in the local woods is also enough to see that grey squirrels and rabbits are abundant. Maybe there are less in more urban areas, but I seriously doubt it. I've seen plenty of rats lurking in our town centre.
Maybe there are less in more urban areas
I'd wager that, compared to the countryside, in more urban areas, there is a much, much higher population density of cats, a much lower density of small rodents and that wild birds are a much easier target for cats to predate due to the handy feeding stations that proliferate in peoples gardens.
The cats, being cats, will hunt the prey that's available, which in urban areas is increasingly likely to be birds. This, coupled with the increased urbanisation of the country has most likely had a long term effect in the overall decline of the bird population.
Because cats.....and people and magpies and habitat loss and pollution and pesticides and loads of other factors.
It's probably disingenuous to suggest that cats aren't a factor though.
It’s probably disingenuous to suggest that cats aren’t a factor though.
as previously said, mine aren't close to being a factor in declining bird populations.
Of more concern is the environmental impact of the clay cat litter I use - which is probably strip mined in the USA and then shipped over here, and then swells up loads when they pee in it so is a big, heavy mass to dump in the landfill - and the source of the meat they eat - which used to be venison (before they caught TB) and will probably be rabbit (from France I think) and ox, and maybe venison again from a better supplier.
People seem to have chickened out of using traps and use poison resulting in the ubiquitous unmistakable stench of rotting rodent. About 7 cats (one or two real tasty geezers) roam through my garden and I've only ever seen one bird get a bashing in 6 years and I think that was already injured.
If the cats keep the rodents down, I'm all for it and the birds do have a super power to escape.
Cats can be a bit more of a problem in the antipodes though.
Ours brought either a big budgie or small parakeet back once. Got that off the doorstep pretty smartish.
“We estimate that free-ranging domestic cats kill 1.3–4.0 billion birds and 6.3–22.3 billion mammals annually.”
which makes for an arresting headline, but is meaningless without knowing how many of those birds and mammals are at reproducing age when killed by predation, or are sick or injured and won't mate naturally anyway. Most birds/small mammals have 4-5 offspring, all it takes is a 50% rate of success to get to maturity to keep the population steady, plus then add weather, lack of food, loss of habitat, disease, injury...which all take a toll.
Some estimates put the numbers of birds in the world at 200-400 billion, there are something like 20 billion birds in the USA at Autumn migration peak, so cats killing 1.3- 4.0 billion of them (mostly sick and injured) aren't making any significant difference to those numbers annually
Junk science.
Some estimates put the numbers of birds in the world at 200-400 billion, there are something like 20 billion birds in the USA at Autumn migration peak, so cats killing 1.3- 4.0 billion of them (mostly sick and injured) aren’t making any significant difference to those numbers annually
I would read the rest of the article - what is junk science is dismissing a paper because 4 billion birds MIGHT be sick or injured. Do you know the percentage of birds sick and injured at any single point in time? Do you know the rate at which cats preferentially predate sick or injured birds? What percentage of those would be predated by other birds were cats not in the picture?
There is no doubt at all that domestic cats kill large numbers of small birds
Do you know the rate at which cats preferentially predate sick or injured birds?
How do you think predation of this sort works, given the normal hunting methods of cats?
There is no doubt at all that domestic cats kill large numbers of small birds
Yep, I think that's probably as good a statement as can be made
There's no doubt that my cats don't kill any birds 🙂
British Shorthairs are the most popular pedigree cat breed in the UK and they are an 'indoor' cat, even if they are let out they don't normally roam - mainly as their owners don't trust their 'street smarts' enough, plus they are quite nickable.
The percentage of the bird population that suffer from BSHs must be close to 0%.
Yep, I think that’s probably as good a statement as can be made
Agreed - but I’d categorise the work as “requires urgent further investigation” considering the scale.
It places the blame mainly with un-owned cats, so feral cats - really, I don’t think that the cat lovers here should be too worried. The U.K. obviously has different numbers and percentage share of feral domestic cats as well.
Chased a cat off my path last week that was torturing an injured pigeon to death. The cat jumped over next doors fence to be met by two very excited Patterdales. Last we’ll see of that cat. Pigeon got bagged and binned.
So, thanks to your intervention, a cat got ripped to pieces by two dogs, and the pigeon died anyway.
Bravo.