[Closed] Kayak-ists - a roof rack / transport question

I used to carry two 13/14 ft SOT kayaks on a pair of standard roof bars with no front or rear tie-downs and never had any problems. Mine were carried upside-down though, not on their sides.

As per scotroutes - carried various boats from plywood kayaks to 15ft open canoes many, many miles with two lateral straps and a fore/aft line.

No boats have died, none have been launched like torpedoes and no baby robins died in the process.

Pedant mode : your boats are rotomolded not blow molded.

actual question: a strap going forward from the bow of the boat would only be under tension if 1. The bow was trying to lift or 2. In extreme if the boat was trying to go backwards - but at such obtuse angle the it would likely have minimal effect.  If you don’t drive like an F1 driver then the latter shouldn’t be a problem.  The former is partly speed dependant but also how far forward your tie down strap is.  I think there will be less “lift” with them on their sides.

The only time I’ve found movement is when the boat  was badly positioned so the tie downs were over its widest beam and therefor any slack enabled some fire/aft movement.

Thanks. Confirms what I thought as, in answer to Poly's point, if you look at the vertical component of the front strap I'd estimate it would be giving not much more than 50% of the strap tension vertically so not even that effective to hold down and part of the logic of the side carry was to reduce that pressure from a uniformish flat surface. They shouldn't then have a frontal profile much worse than 4 bikes on the roof, which we do regularly.

I left high speed heroics behind years ago and even then I tended to confine them to track days.

Pedantry is fine (may be guilty myself when I'm not being dim).

Alwys handy to check this stuff with those with more experience though.

thanks again

I have a long and heavy BIC 2 person Sit on top kayak that goes on top of my 3 series estate.

It goes on its side with uprights so I can put a narrow roof box on the nearside.

I never used to put ties front and back but after reading a case where someone was killed by any errant surfboard I thought it best for me to make best efforts to secure it properly.

I bought some cheap towing eyes off eBay and use rack straps (long) to secure fore and aft.

I use some pipe lagging around the section that contacts the bonnet which works well- just put a cut down the length (20 cm long section) and use three reuseable zip ties to secure in place. Works a treat.

HTH

can you not just use lengthwise straps back to the roof rack itself as a backup to stop any forward and rearward movement?

I carry two 17' open canoes.

I occasionally use a bow tie down to the front towing eye on very long journeys ( such as Scotland to South France...). Locally (anywhere in Scotland), I don't bother.

Usually they are tied flat or leaning on top, really tight over and I use bow painters led back to roof bars. In the event of a bump, the roof rack or rope would have to fail for them to go anywhere.

Have a play with positions - on the Galaxy they laid flat, and a pushing them forward, slight toe in and 5-10cm gap between meant at least 5mpg more - and noticeably less drag/quieter. Sit either upright meant -5 to -10mpg, really susceptible to gusts and sidewinds...

Carry sea kayaks and/or canoes and always use rope to the tow eyes (I brought a second eye from eBay for this very purpose).

I’ve seen straps fail and a boat twist off a roof in side winds before and just don’t take the chance.

If you look in the instructions for the car and roofrack you might find a recomendation that you should always tie down the front and rear of kayaks on the roof. I don't think I would like to explain why I ignored the instructions in the event of an accident.

I have always used two towing eyes and when I had a longer car the rope touching the front of the car never seemed to be a problem if a bit of pipe lagging was put round the rope.

The other way I have seen the front of kayaks tied down is to put a webbing loop under a bolt for the front wing and tie on to this. It can be tucked under the bonnet when not used.

Thanks again all. Will check the manual during the week and see if I can pick up a second towing eye (although I've got the tow bar out back so in theory shouldn't need it).

I assume no legality issues with the front strap in terms of visual obstruction?

I always use a good set of box steel uprights and use towling eyelets front and rear.

Why would you not, given the possible outcome?

Id strap them together if the cockpits played nice on a SOT, wouldnt bother with fore aft lines as on their sides theyre not going to lift up, it will serve no practical purpose.

Extra long straps if possible then tie the ends to the roof rack front and back for belt and braces.

The more important point is to check them an hour or so into the journey and tighten if required. Tied correctly on their sides to uprights with decent straps they wont have any ability to move as the widest part is between the straps.

Regarding fore and aft lines tied to roof rack,  I don't think that's a great idea. You're trying to mitigate a failure of the rack as well as the strap,  which isn't an unknown occurrence.

For the sake of a few quid and a coupe of minutes i can't see why you wouldn't attach the lines to a couple of towing eyelets.

Mikertroid, I’ve used towing eyes for a tandem sea kayak on a rack without uprights, so I am not saying they are fundamentally a bad idea, but 1. The rope is a bit of a distraction for the driver and probably does cause some element of obstruction.  2. Towing eyes are big solid things (unless you go and buy the racing ones) and presumably part of the reason they aren’t permanently installed is for safety.

id be sceptical that ropes or straps to the two towing eyes actually offer any real mitigation to either the total failure of the rack or the strap.  Given the angles involved it’s almost impossible to put any real tension on (and if you can you risk damaging the boat) especially if it contacts the body work on the way.  If either did fail at speed I’d not be surprised if you end up with a kayak obstructing your view or bouncing around on the side.  On most cars you could run lines fore/aft to the roof rails which would actually be at more useful angles and would mitigate failure of anything other than the rails themselves.

if you genuinely were trying to mitigate that risk it feels like you’d be better adding a strap over the load and across the inside of the roof (through the doors) like to inflatable racks you can get.  The problem with crap mitigation is it makes people more complacent about getting the primary security right.

people routinely carry bikes on their roof without a just in case strap to another structural feature but if breaking free at speed would endanger pedestrians, cyclist, and motorists.

Because unlike with a canoe inverted, theres no real lifting force so the towing eye straps wouldnt really do much. Securing front and back to the roof rack just adds a bit extra security for hard braking/acceleration. Towing eye wouldnt do that. Not that either are really required in this case imo. Checking is more important. Unless there is a back overhang, then your supposed to use a tiedown and a warning flag or something i think.

Ive seen canoes attached fore and aft but sliding across the roof before, also 4 boats come off the roof still attached to the roofrack... not lost one yet myself.

This may or may not be the right way of thinking about it, but if im going to lose a roofrack with 2 boats attached to it, or have bits of it fly off, i dont want 2x 30kg of boat and gear each attached to the car by a couple of flappy straps flailing around me at 60mph... i think clear of the vehicle is probably safer.

@poly

I don't seem to have a distraction or tension problem in my setup- possibly depends on your setup.

As regards to not doing it, do whatever you want.  I'll keep doing my extra security. Costs zip and minimal hassle. Hopefully I'll never need to find out if they're needed!

Mikertroid, have you tested to see if in the event of rack failure or strap failure your boats stay on the roof?  I assume your towing eye is not on the drivers  side right in the middle of your view?

Poly, answers available in my last post...

Just looking at this again for our trip up to the lakes. Taking the merc instead of the freelander so a lot less choices of tie down point + I care about the paintwork

There will be negligible overhang and I dont think the towing eyes would be much use.

Couple of options seem to be making a triangle loop from the corners of the roof rails to the ends of the canoe, could also pass the same rope over the top to act as additonal tie downs.

Or I could get something like this:

https://www.thule.com/en-gb/au/sport-rack/kayak-roof-rack-accessories/thule-quick-loop-strap-_-530999

Or the bolt on versions could work on the slam panel bolts and exiting out by the headlights just like on this video: 

Bit worried about exiting at the sides as the bonnet is a clamshell type and aluminium so could be damaged.

Problem is finding something like that in the UK, all I can find is cheap chinese copies which dont look as well made.

Any use to you OP?

In STW fashion of both ignoring the OPs question and recommending what you’ve got - just get a VW Transporter

Those quick loops and the various bonnet bolt tie downs I see are just going to fold the bonnet in a bump, and do very little (imho).

Personally, having seen canoes and kayaks escape racks before, it was lack of initial good security that was the issue.

Get good, branded and rated straps. Put them on properly (doubled up and over) then crank with full body weight. You will see the plastic flex. You will be able to push with all your might forward, backward, sideways and they won't move. Then use painter from bow to roof rack. Job done

In the event of a bump, the roof rack is more liable to tear out in my experience.

I frequently carry sea kayaks or open canoes and always tie them to towing eyes front and back. They take a lot more side load in cross winds or HGV buffeting than bikes do, and their length can apply leverage to the roof rack. While not a scientific study, I've known several people lose boats that weren't tied at their ends, and none who have lost tied ones. I've also been passenger in a car with tied kayaks that was in a collision, and they stayed on.

I tension the ropes to remove any slack but not to carry any tension unless the boat moves. For the OP's questions about rope touching the bodywork, I sometimes put a knot in the rope to hold the main length off the paint, often I can get the knot on a non-painted area.

The instructions for my roofrack say that long loads should be tied down; I would be concerned that my insurance might be invalid if I didn't follow the instructions (my insurer regards racks as an accessory not a modification, but those who regard racks as modifications may have strong views on following instructions)

A last thank you from me.

I've ordered a tie down kit to be sure.

May I ask a question please. When tying down the bow how do you deal with the offset towing eye on most cars?

Hi ajaj

The short answer is I believe that the strap is ultimately at an angle but it's still got a decent downward component.  If it's one boat I'd tie it over that side of the roof.

My reason for wondering if I can dispense with them was partly that issue as the towing eye is on the driver's side and I wasn't sure how well it would pull if it was going to the side.

In terms of seeing past it I'm not worried as the eyes/brain should tune it out as your focal point is way ahead of the bonnet.

Having read all the above and done some other googling and you tubing I saw a triangular setup on a few cars.

As it happens the tie down kit I've got coming (from roofbox.co.uk) has bodywork hooks so my first planwill be to look for an anchor point each side below the bumper and make a triangle with the lines to the kayaks sitting as close to centre as possible using the two lines in the kit.

I'm then going to strap down to the tow bar at the rear, which is central using a regular (good quality) webbing strap.

If any of the other more knowledgeable posters see an issue with that then let me know.

We (and our kayaks) are back.

Thanks for all the good advice we ended up with a change of stacking on the day of departure.

The upright posts didn't play nicely with our very wide sit on tops unless we put them with the hull against the post and deck exposed which didn't seem to feel right.

On the way up north we put them flat with bottom one hull down. They nest brilliantly like this deck to deck but it distorted the hull around the bars (stupid rookie error - don't do this people) but it thankfully sprang right back...

During the week we tried some little changes on shorter journies trying to refine the easiest/securest way of doing things.

On the way home we went with the bigger one resting on its gunwhales deck down and the awkward smaller one upside down on top. They don't like stacking like this due to very different rocker and deck profiles so we used some cheap camping mats still rolled trapped between the two hulls. This allowed us to tension the straps, distorting the rolled mats to give a lot of stability and an upright/evenly balanced hull.

In terms of straps we went with strapping the lower one down independently and then the second one had its own straps. All went over the hulls and round the roof bars.

We had bought a ratcheting bow and stern line kit, which we connected to the upper kayak then routed through the bow and stern eyes of the lower one to the towing eye (front) and tow bar (rear). This helped a bit I think especially at motorway speeds into a headwind.

The kits had hooks top and bottom and we found a neat way of tying off the excess to make the ratchet blocks and hooks captive in case of a hook jumping off under load. Basically a half hitch under the block then the dead tail up through the bow/stern ring and back down to towing eye or tow bar and tied back just above the hooks.

This gave us a really stable load despite its 60kg weight and relatively high windage.

For the future I think we might look at some augmentation of the uprights or a custom sling to allow them to sit deck to deck without any hull squishing.

Once again thanks to all.