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Anybody watching? Extraordinary.
You need a steady sort of chap to be the USA’s top judge. Does the gentleman protest too much, or is it an example of a weight of pressure that would break anyone.
If he’s innocent, why does he keep dodging the ‘FBI question’?
Whatever, it’s a car crash I just can’t keep my eyes off.
Was waiting for the summary and analysis, think there will be a couple of good podcasts in the morning.
This is more about how Reps feel about the odds on senate, they are still about 2/3 on holding it which means no rush. Pushing him through before mid terms is a desperate move though, but getting a very conservative gun loving christian bench is a big prize
or is it an example of a weight of pressure that would break anyone.
I imagine the pressure of being accused of assault or rape in such a public way would be enough to break anyone. Whether there's real guilt adding to that I doubt we'd ever know, too long ago and no witnesses.
What worries me is that regardless of the truth of these or other allegations, it's become a very undemocratic way of blocking politicians we don't agree with.
What worries me is that regardless of the truth of these or other allegations, it’s become a very undemocratic way of blocking politicians we don’t agree with.
Not playing a they started it but they Republicans blocked any chance of a vote on the last Obama pick for purely political reasons. These ones could be a lot more than that.
The Reps still have the numbers to vote this guy through if they choose to or to pick another and get him through, he was tight on the numbers for a few reasons before this.
The grandstanding & shouting is pretty horrible, feel very sorry for the victim that she should be forced to describe her rape in this manner
kavanaugh comes across as abraisive, bullying & evasive , hes like trump
What’s more likely, that a successful professional woman would subject herself to this sort of scrutiny and the inevitable abuse over something that didn’t happen? Or that an upperclass high school jock didn’t drink too much in 1982 and try his luck with a girl who wasn’t interested?
His anger is that he may be prevented from reaching the pinnacle of his career over a stupid mistake he made when he was very young. I sympathise with that. He’s spent 30 odd years building a career and done very well. For that to be undone by something he did when 16* probably feels very unfair. Attempted rape is attempted rape though, and he’s put himself forward for a job that brings with it a massive amount of scrutiny and standards of the highest order. Just like Trump, he’s so arrogant that he doesn’t think the rules should apply to him.
*or was it 18? Not that it matters.
It's a car crash that's for sure. Highly partisan republicans are.....loathsome and attempting to crawl into Trump's sphincter. Kavanaugh is defensive, offended; he could be lying, she could be lying, it could have happened but a different perpetrator, it could have been him but he has no memory.
Kimbers - not rape; sexual assault.
It's clear that Kavanaugh's objective is to preserve his name and reputation; it's not about the SCOTUS nomination.
She is persuasive, he is not. That proves nothing either way.
****ing horrendous way to treat that woman. This is why sexual assaults are not reported, and much less frequently convicted
Like the man says, sad.
Weird how the republicans potray themselves as the conservative, family-honouring, christian moral majority isn't it. Of course, we have no idea of Kavanaugh's guilt or innocence but having this hanging over someone being considered for the most senior judicial post is just crazy and pushing forward with his nomination
(and worth remembering the actual positions here; one party wants to push forward regardless, the other is calling only for a delay)
Everything else aside, his conduct when faced with these accusations has been poor enough that I think it makes him look unsuitable.
Utter madness, totally bonkers, irrespective of whether he gets nominated how do the opposing parties in America ever reconcile and work together again.
What’s more likely, that a successful professional woman would subject herself to this sort of scrutiny and the inevitable abuse over something that didn’t happen? Or that an upperclass high school jock didn’t drink too much in 1982 and try his luck with a girl who wasn’t interested?
A bit more than trying his luck but this surely is the key point. There is nothing in this for Blasey Ford but pain and trouble. Why would she say it if it wasn't true - and remember 2 others have also come forward with similar accusations.
I also think he has convinced himself that he is not the person he once was. He is not that person. Therefore, who he is now is not that person. So he now, didn’t do it. This would explain why he feels victimised himself but would also explain why he does not want to take a lie detector test or have a full FBI investigation. These will show it was the “past” him. They will not separate the two, like he is, to justify himself.
and no witnesses
There is one very pertinent witness: Mark Judge. He was in the room when it happened. But the republicans chose not to call him as a witness because he's said it didn't happen and doesn't want to testify. So that's OK then.
From Judge's lawyer
Judge’s lawyer, Barbara Van Gelder, said Thursday that he “does not want to comment about these events publicly” and “will not respond to any media inquiries”.
Van Gelder said Judge “is willing to answer written questions, and he has. In addition, he is willing to participate in a confidential, fact-finding investigation”
So he's willing, just not in public.
Kav was over aggressive in that interview, dodged questions like a first grade politician and frankly ignored some altogether if they didn't suit him. Said he would take a lie detector test but knows it is inadmissible in court so really no point. He could state he was a meat Popsicle and if it came up true no one would question.
From what I've read its also not a clear split for the vote either which could happen today, some republicans have their doubts about him and his behaviour and overall suitability for this role.
One thing I found odd, probably just me but he tried to claim some honor and rep in the fact he had a full team of female admin/staff etc and was an advocate of women's rights etc etc- guilty conscious trying to make up for something.
One thing I found odd, probably just me but he tried to claim some honor and rep in the fact he had a full team of female admin/staff etc and was an advocate of women’s rights etc etc- guilty conscious trying to make up for something.
From defending alleged anything playbook 101
American Bar Association has called for a delay for these allegations to be investigated, as usual it's more POS than GOP.
Its relevant that these are not new allegations out of the blue . She has spoken about the attack and who did it to various people over the years, a long time before this nomination.
WRT the "female staff" thing. Some stuff has come out about prospective female interns being told by their professors to "dress like a model" to improve chances of getting a job with him.
Avoiding FBI investigation is interesting. I have a suspicion that more people go to jail for "lying to the FBI" than for the crimes they are actually accused of. e.g. The one big reason why trumps lawyers won't let him talk to the feds about his issues, is that he's physically incapable of telling the truth.
This from popehat on twitter is amusing (or frightening if you're an american/person of interest).
problem for me is whenever I see his name (or hear him speak) I think of this clip from Porky's
https://www.getyarn.io/yarn-clip/a1754ca0-725c-41f1-a510-7f69652f58d5
Poor Lad is bleating to the press that he's been put under the spotlight... I guess it would be just better if they just put these people into office without much oversight.
There is nothing in this for Blasey Ford but pain and trouble.
Well that's not quite true though is it.
Potentially she gets to be the hero of all Democrats for derailing a conservative appointment to the Supreme Court. That's huge - there is a reason this story is as big as it is and it has almost nothing to do with the allegation and everything to do with changing the whole direection of American law.
If it transpires that Kavanagh is not appointment and his career is ruined, Ford will become a hero to many people. There's a lot to be motivated for.
She also gets to be publically acknowledged as a 'victim', perhaps even a 'survivor'. Those are also powerful motivating forces (as I personally understand). There is a lot of redeption to be had in being seen as a victim.
It will do her career no harm at all, probably it will also accelerate it considerably.
None of this is meant as anything other than an honest reflection on what she stands to gain simply because it's true, not to malign her or denigrate what she is claiming.
Having watched her testimony, I am reasonably convinced that this assualt did take place but what is curious is that no one seems to be considering the possibility that this is mistaken identity.
How do we know it was definitely Kavanagh? It
It hasn't been established through cross examination that they even knew each other prior to the event taking place; did she know it was him at the time or did she establish this fact afterwards and if so, how?
It's a car crash for sure but I think the only thing it really prioves is that we have a judicial process for a very good reason.
I also think he has convinced himself that he is not the person he once was. He is not that person. Therefore, who he is now is not that person. So he now, didn’t do it. This would explain why he feels victimised himself but would also explain why he does not want to take a lie detector test or have a full FBI investigation. These will show it was the “past” him. They will not separate the two, like he is, to justify himself.
Very much this; also see the 'Times were different then' defence. And while I don't condone, I do have a slight sympathy with that - I wouldn't like to be audited for some of the stuff I did in undergraduate years (miles short of sexual assault, I have to say!) but would be in the category of 'overbearingly laddish' - thankfully there weren't camera phones and social media records at the time.
I also have no plans to stand for high office......
She also gets to be publically acknowledged as a ‘victim’, perhaps even a ‘survivor’. Those are also powerful motivating forces (as I personally understand). There is a lot of redeption to be had in being seen as a victim.
It will do her career no harm at all, probably it will also accelerate it considerably.
I'm sure the death threats and online abuse make it all see worthwhile
My only opinion is this act was so long ago, how can you rely on the accuser or the defender’s recollections of what did/didn’t happen and to whom and when.
Its a very long time ago, I sometimes feel that cases like this only come out when there is sufficient political newsworthiness to allow for publication.
Sad as the accused is, it’s a terrible situation to reveal in a public environment.
She also poked holes in the mistaken identity theory when she described how she and Judge Kavanaugh met when their social circles intersected. She remembered his friends, including Mark Judge, who she said was in the room, while practicing swimming and diving at Columbia Country Club in suburban Maryland.
“This is how I met Brett Kavanaugh, the boy who eventually assaulted me,” she said.
Senator Charles E. Grassley of Iowa, the chairman of the Judiciary Committee, when asked if he found Dr. Blasey credible, answered: “Let me suggest this. I know that we’ve got to take what she says very seriously.”
How was that disproven geetee?
My only opinion is this act was so long ago, how can you rely on the accuser or the defender’s recollections of what did/didn’t happen and to whom and when.
Apart from she has confided in people before this, indicated who it was etc. I've heard people recall in perfect details events from a lot longer ago, especially significant or traumatic ones.
If true he should count himself luck he has any career to be tarnished.
Interesting remark on R4 earlier - that both respondents are correct.
Dr Ford did experience what she says she experienced. Kavanaugh didn’t do it as far as he is aware. He simply has no memory of it. Human memory is not like computer data. Put a chip on standby and the information it contains will remain exactly the same.
Human memory is more like play-dough. As time passes and experiences pile into the available space, memories warp and sometimes even completely disappear.
Given his heavy drinking at the time, it’s perfectly possible that he simply blanked out the experience.
More to the point, what his testimonial performance reveals is that he’s simply unqualified for such a high-powered role. Where are the qualities of reflection, steady character and forensic intelligence needed in the Supreme Court?
If, instead of switching between arrogance, anger and whining and blubbering like a little boy (accompanied by wheeling out the family like a politician caught between legs that are not his wife’s) he had simply and calmly reported that he had no memory of the event but accepted that, probably due to his heavy teenage drinking, had suffered a memory blackout, that he was sorry and contrite and was prepared to apologise and make amends and carry the experience forward to help illuminate his new occupation with a greater understanding etc etc., he may even have carried some Democrats with him.
Whatever you think of his opinions and politics, the fact that he couldn’t even fake it adequately in his own self interest, disqualifies him as being an incompetent tactician without any appreciable pro-active ability and limited self control. Getting that support from the zombie Republican planks to the Chairman’s right at the dais, is just a reflection of the inadequate personalities currently on offer in that half of American politics.
As P J O’Rourke once said: Republicanism ain’t what it used to be...
She also gets to be publically acknowledged as a ‘victim’, perhaps even a ‘survivor’. Those are also powerful motivating forces (as I personally understand). There is a lot of redeption to be had in being seen as a victim.
Yeah, that must be it. Women love to be victims, don't they? After the horror of the court room, I'm sure she'll bask in the newfound victimhood she's attained. This sort of crazed attitude is what she's up against.
Frankly, if revenge is a motivating factor for her, good on her. It's best served cold, and this is as cold as it gets. He thought he got away with something for 30 years but she takes him down just as he's about to peak. Justice at its finest in the court of public opinion.
It will do her career no harm at all, probably it will also accelerate it considerably.
Yes as she specialises in “...designing statistical models for research projects in order to make sure they come to accurate conclusions," i can see that this will be a great addition to her cv.
More to the point, what his testimonial performance reveals is that he’s simply unqualified for such a high-powered role. Where are the qualities of reflection, steady character and forensic intelligence needed in the Supreme Court?
^^ this.
Also, things we know:
3 people are credibly accusing him of sexual assault /attempted rape as a teenager.
His buddy Mark Judge says they were both massive boozers
All his old housemates say he was an aggressive, belligerent drunk
His yearbook is full of references to (at best) misogynistic tropes
etc
and
the GOP narrative is basically "hey, he was 18. Why ruin his career over this?"
Now, if I was an 18 year old girl (or the parent of one) I would be pretty damn worried that this seems to be the societal direction of travel for half of America.
It's a ****ing shitshow, and I am convinced that the GOP are going to close ranks and push it through this afternoon, and the US political establishment will take another step into the mire.
Geetee -that is utterly ridiculous nonsense. there is nothing but pain, hurt and danger to her for testifying. To ascribe such motivations to her is misogynistic, crass, ridiculous and thoroughly unpleasant. I expect it will do significant damage to her personally and professionally.
What happened to Anita Hill?
Are we saying that no one would ever accuse another of rape or sexual assault unless it were true?
Conservatives in the US especially the south are a bit odd.
it is fine for middle age men to drool over girls in Hooters and Twin Peaks but if they dress like that to a club they are a slut.
it is acceptable to believe you cannot go out with a woman for dinner without cheating and it would most likely be her fault anyway.
generally the wife should be at home looking after the home and respect you in all situations.
you can go into planned parenthood, ethnic/religious discrimination and a whole host of other things but while JRM wants to live in the past many of these people really do.
was this guy a Dick in the past? Probably
should it disbar him from his job at the moment? I have not seen any evidence to say he has done this job badly
should he sit on the Supreme Court? Probably not
if the GOP back down now will it be seen as a massive shock to their power? Yep
The whole thing is suspect. The alleged victim has been thrown under the bus by the democrats. She says she wanted to be anonymous yet the democrats outed her. At the same time as wanting to be anonymous she was telling her story to a Washington journalist. The democrats delayed the timing of the release of the allegations for maximum impact. Despite knowing about them at an earlier stage of the selection process. Her recollection has not been consistent as one would expect after 30 odd years. No credible evidence presented, just word against word. Whole thing is a circus.
Have they called Julie Swetnick to testify yet?
Her sworn statement document describes Brett Kavanaugh as an instigator of gang rape, forced intoxication, and violent sexual assault.
The bloke is abhorrent.
Her recollection has not been consistent as one would expect after 30 odd years.
So you would have expected her to remember less? Generally assaults like this tend to etch onto your soul. You can describe the smell of a person even after 30 years.
I found her totally credible.
I don't find anything about the whole situation credible. No.
The whole thing is suspect. The alleged victim has been thrown under the bus by the democrats. She says she wanted to be anonymous yet the democrats outed her. At the same time as wanting to be anonymous she was telling her story to a Washington journalist. The democrats delayed the timing of the release of the allegations for maximum impact. Despite knowing about them at an earlier stage of the selection process.
None of this has any bearing on Kavanaugh's suitability for the job.
She also gets to be publically acknowledged as a ‘victim’, perhaps even a ‘survivor’. Those are also powerful motivating forces (as I personally understand). There is a lot of redeption to be had in being seen as a victim.
I am glad you have admitted to playing the victim for the crowd, I hope everyone takes note and realises your motivation for past and future contributions to the forum.
Very much this; also see the ‘Times were different then’ defence. And while I don’t condone, I do have a slight sympathy with that – I wouldn’t like to be audited for some of the stuff I did in undergraduate years (miles short of sexual assault, I have to say!) but would be in the category of ‘overbearingly laddish’ – thankfully there weren’t camera phones and social media records at the time.
That's the problem though.
I'm not politician and I'm fairly sure I've never committed sexual assault or rape. But if I was running for public office and journalists started phoning up my ex's I'm sure at least one of them would have a "I said no, he said go on, I relented" story.
Irrespective of the sexual assault, I think Kavanaugh should have already ruled himself out of the post for showing that he is a boorish, arrogant alcoholic (although I salute him for saying 'I love beer' 🙂 ). Seriously though, does anyone really think that some pissed up rich boy jock in 1982 didn't try to force himself on a girl after she refused his advances? That's about as credible as him vomiting because he 'has a weak stomach'. I see his point, I bet there are hundreds of thousands of American men who did exactly the same when they were 18. The main difference here though is that they're not in the position of being one of the most powerful people in the country.
Does nobody else think that he is mentally unstable? He definitely comes across that way. Then again so does Trump and it doesn’t seem to have harmed him. Regardless of what he may or may not have done he shouldn’t hold a position with any power in my opinion.
mentally unstable
Thats a quality most MP's or Senior Office holders have, yes.
It hasn’t been established through cross examination that they even knew each other prior to the event taking place; did she know it was him at the time or did she establish this fact afterwards and if so, how?
On the contrary, her testimony was that they knew each other, moved in the same circle of friends, that they were on first name terms but did not know each other well. She testified that she knew it was Kavanuagh and Judge straight away during the attack and has told people that over the years She even said that she'd met, by accident, Mark Judge at a grocery store and few weeks after the attack, and that he turned "white as a ghost when he realised it was me, and didn't know what to say or where to look"
Does nobody else think that he is mentally unstable? He definitely comes across that way.
He seemed mad angry more than anything else, which doesn't seem a good character trait in a supreme court nominee. Oh, and somewhat entitled.
I was darkly amused by this Washington Post take down:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/opinions/wp/2018/09/27/how-dare-you-do-this-to-brett-kavanaugh/
Why isn't this a trial? Statue of Limitations?
The state it happened in doesn't have a Statue of Limitations, she can still press charges if she wants.
Not sure its been put to the FBI for investigation yet, Democrats kept calling out for it during the live interview last night but Kavanaugh wouldnt answer nor any GOP, afaik
Why isn’t this a trial? Statue of Limitations?
Because the way they done it instead they got the same level of exposure, maybe even more, but without the need for all the pesky evidence stuff.
Because the way they done it instead they got the same level of exposure, maybe even more, but without the need for all the pesky evidence stuff.
A sworn testimony under oath IS evidence
(which is why they're so keen to keep Mark Judge away)
A sworn testimony under oath IS evidence
Cool. But why hasn't this gone to trial?
Good question. I believe at a federal level, it needs to start with an FBI investigation - then if they find that it should go to a trial, they'd move it on. But there is considerable government opposition to an FBI investigation.
To do it at a state level, well, the US doesn't have an equivalent of the CPS. Who can shed more light, because IA fairly clearly NAL?!
You know he'll get in though.
Even this isn't enough to stop the pussy-grabber-in-chief train.
Then he'll help repeal Roe vs Wade.
Worth losing the midterms for, that's more of a temporary setback.
Watching the hearing, looks like yesterday was just a hiccup which brought everything forward - he'll win the vote is my guess.
it can't be good for a democracy to have such a politicized judiciary.
Watching the hearing, looks like yesterday was just a hiccup which brought everything forward – he’ll win the vote is my guess.
almost certainly 😐
An analysis I read said the GOP were willing to look bad, even to the point of losing the midterms to pissed off women voters to get him in. He's in for ~40 years. The might lose midterms anyway and the democrat party could block him getting in.
Sad.
So Senator Frank has decided to vote against his better judgement and support the sex criminal. I wonder what made him change his mind?
He’s in for ~40 years.
And that is the dream of the right wing. Owning the courts is the most important thing hence why they will put up with Trump amongst other things.
It is entertaining, although depressing, seeing the absolute lack of any ethics or genuine morality amongst the "Christian" right when it comes to chasing an agenda. Who cares if the person they are voting for in theory personally fails all their claimed principles so long as he chooses the right judges.
Can the FBI produce anything meaningful in just a week?
Well if the FBI thing goes ahead (I don't think anyone knows what's happening given the abrupt halt to proceedings), it's not like there is much to look at is there?
But why hasn’t this gone to trial?
The victim doesn't want it to?
it’s not like there is much to look at is there?
How do you know?
Can the FBI produce anything meaningful in just a week?
I would doubt it. Sadly it does seem like the he said, she said (although now multiple "shes") scenario and given how long ago it is obvious forensics etc is sod all use. Unless witnesses join in and given most of them would be incriminating themselves that doesn't seem likely seems a dead end. Depends on whether multiple accusations are given any weight and since they will be accused of partisanship I think the FBI given the attacks on them from the trump nutcases will err even more on the side of caution and go "no idea",
It was curious how uncomfortable Flake appeared with it. Seems like he was pretty convinced but couldnt quite go against the republican line.
But why hasn’t this gone to trial?
The victim doesn’t want it to?
Alleged victim Al. Alleged.
How do you know?
Because the proposal is to limit it to only those allegations that are on the table just now, one was examined yesterday (the most credible), the other 3 will go no where, one of which was a drunken flash at a party, one was a mother saying her daughter witnessed him pushing a woman he was dating, the other alleges that he frequently drugged and took part in gang raping female students. Given the FBI already spent 6 weeks looking into him and his background and never uncovered any of this, it's pretty unlikely given the lack of any collaboration anything new will come to light.
It was curious how uncomfortable Flake appeared with it. Seems like he was pretty convinced but couldnt quite go against the republican line.
He did a complete 180 over the course of the day, I think more likely he was looking at the mood of the electorate and that is what convinced him to put the deal on the table, to protect his own skin. I don't think any of them on either side actually give a shit about the women or getting to the truth, it's just pure politics to them.
Why is it so often the case that the more ‘upstanding’ and ‘god-fearing’ someone says they are, the bigger the **** they actually are?
I mean, loads of the most racist, petty, insular afrikaners proclaim themselves the most pious Christians whilst acting in the most un-Christian way. It’s almost as though self-righteous conservatives are utterly hypocritical. Is confused.
It's because they are conservative, and if you identify yourself as conservative you'll generally do things associated with it. So old fashioned stuff, which includes traditional religion.
Nothing that happens in the US politics surprises me. It just seems to get more ****ed up by the day.
Why is it so often the case that the more ‘upstanding’ and ‘god-fearing’ someone says they are, the bigger the **** they actually are?
I would guess two things.
Either someone is a real arsehole and realises so long as they pretend to believe the poor saps will believe them or its a case of a guilty conscience which kicks in after the fact and they buy into the so long as you repent you are okay line.
Well obviously I was being a bit sarcastic.
However, there seems to be a total lack of ‘traditional’ or what I would call ‘traditional’ conservatism out there. By this, I mean the likes of Beveridge or Keynes. Neither were what we now call conservatives, nor were they at the time, but they both espoused non-flashy self reliance whilst be amenable to helping people truly in need to get on their feet.
This latest crop are an insult to their own so-called values. Hypocritical, cynical, piss-taking bastards.
He’s in
Well the Democrats are threatening a full investigation into him if they get enough seats in November, could still get messy
Well the pushback against the Kavanagh appointment has actually fired up the rep base, but has it done even more to push the democrat voters out? midterms going to be more polarised than ever.
The big unknown is what other skeletons are going to come out of kavanaghs closet
The big unknown is what other skeletons are going to come out of kavanaghs closet
It's OK he can't remember but it's not because he blacked out drunk though
also worth noting that kavanagh fightback has energised Republicans who support him more than before the allegations broke, but its turned dems & improtantly swing voters more against trumps pick
The whole thing is distasteful. I know supreme court judges go on party lines, but I feel Kavanaugh is now there with a feeling he owes his President BIG time. How can he even hope to put a facade of even handed neutrality?? And he will preside over judgements affecting everyday peoples lives for the rest of his life. I cant believe what passes as American democracy.
I thought Trumps comments at a recent rally were utterly disgusting and displayed the utter lack of tact I would expect of him. A complete disgrace of what I loosely refer to as a human being.
It’s OK he can’t remember but it’s not because he blacked out drunk though
I find this a rather odd claim. He must be the only student ever not to have blacked out from drinking. I mean what is further education for if not to explore your limits?
We all drank to excess at uni, Im not sure that my parties were as wild as his, Im guessing mine were more weed than booze & certainly less rapey
These allegations aside hes perjured himself several times in his own confirmation!! saying initially he never drank until blacking out, that boofing meant farting, not anal sex & devils triangle was a drinking game not a 3some
Whats even worse is that with the FBI not interviewing Ford or Kavanagh (the latter allegedly because the whitehouse blocked it) https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2018/10/the-real-reason-the-white-house-told-the-fbi-not-to-interview-christine-blasey-ford/ is going to be a sore point that is going to fester for a long time.
epic thread here
https://twitter.com/SethAbramson/status/1047483971259576321
Satire and News getting confused again
How much is a Mannlicher Carcano these days and where is the nearest book depository?
It's all just terribly sad IMO. Internal USA politics and not really my business but putting such an obvious drunkard frat-boy lying sex-abuser on the supreme court is disgusting.
And yeah, of course he did it. More than once.
I wonder if his views on abortion (now basically illegal in over 20 states) would have been different if any of the women he or his friends allegedly assualted became pregnant as a result?