[Closed] Just watched Newsnight, am I detached from reality? Is it worse than I know?

It's really only the disabled that are suffering

I think it may be the fact you are in work and not on the margins.
However austere or frivolous we are these folk will always exist.
Given the cuts and the recession they poorest will always be hit the hardest as they need the services cut more than you or I.

Am I the minority with the majority suffering or is it [u]visa[/u] versa?

Credit crunch?

My wife and I are lucky to be amongst those who earn a good wage. yes we work hard for it but we are secure. I guess people like us will be doing ok, it's those who were struggling along before who are feeling the pinch.
Having grown up on the verge of poverty I would hate to be there again. Being able to eat,pay a mortgage & drive my car are things I am glad I can afford to do without stretching myself and I really feel for those who can't.

We've never had it so good.

Apart from the 2.7 million who are unemployed. Oh... and the sick and disabled. And all those millions on low, subsistence-level incomes. And a lot more besides. But other than those.... yeah we're all doing great.

And if you don't go out of your way to notice them, you can pretend completely that they don't exist. A bit like Dave and George do

[img] [/img]

nick1962 - Member

Am I the minority with the majority suffering or is it visa versa?

Credit crunch?

Don't have any, never had and hopefully never will. The only borrowing I've ever done is my mortgage.

If I can't afford it I don't buy it

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-19478083 ]if you don't look you won't see it[/url]

The government said it was committed to eradicating child poverty.

[img] [/img]

3 million unemployed in France and rising; it isn't just here, you know...

'Save the children'??

This isnt a financial problem.. it's a social problem. There are far too many people in this country who simply have no idea how to handle their finances. Far too many people who put smoking/alcohol/drugs before food/shelter/clothing for their children.

These people need education not money.

Didn't unemployment fall last month?

You are Paul Dacre and I claim my free green biro!

I'm sure you're absolutely correct though. All child poverty is caused by ****less parents spending their giro's in the pub

Molly - unemployment is officially falling. But the nature of the 'jobs' has changed. Full-time positions have been replaced by casual part-time positions.

This 'under-employment' of people who had full time jobs, are now part time but still looking for full time apparently represents another 1.4 million

True, but wouldn't you rather be part-time than unemployed?

Not disagreeing that there's a problem, but chucking stats around is so futile really 🙁

Well I'm sure if you were working full-time and you're now working 20 hours a week, with your outgoings pretty much the same, it certainly goes a long way to explaining why a lot more children are falling into poverty

True, but wouldn't you rather be part-time than unemployed?

I'm sure a lot of people with kids would actually be better off on benefits than working minimum wage, part time, yet they choose to work

Unfortunately acknowledging this, instead of blaming everything on ****less layabouts, doesn't suit this governments agenda, nor sell copies of the Daily Mail

...but there's 100 pubs shutting every month.
At this rate, child poverty will soon be beaten.

FFS guys, get real!!

If we don't cut the hours of those who currently have jobs, how on earth are employers going to be able to take on the 20% of ESA claimants the government wants to send back to work?

elzorillo - Member

'Save the children'??

Don't be so mean with the question marks.

There you go mate ........'Save the children'?????????

Am I the minority with the majority suffering or is it visa versa? I work hard long hours but always have.

I think recessions are fairly binomial for most people, if you still have your job, not a lot has changed. If you've lost your job, then you are very much affected. There also seems to be a much bigger North / South slant to the job losses this time round. In the SE, the recession is barely noticeable, just something you read about.

It was remarked on a coupe of years ago that this is actually quite a weird recession, as in a 'traditional' recession interest rates are normally really high, so they hit mortgage payers (i.e. broadly speaking, the middle class) hard.

However this time round the interest rate is essentially zero, so a lot of people with mortgages, and I was in this position for a while, are doing very nicely thank you...

This isnt a financial problem.. it's a social problem. There are far too many people in this country who simply have no idea how to handle their finances. Far too many people who put smoking/alcohol/drugs before food/shelter/clothing for their children.

Which is why the Gov are rolling out a plan to give benefits cash straight into the hands of those receiving it instead of into the accounts that they should be paying into each week/month, e.g. council tax. The aim being to help them learn to manage their finance. Yeah right, that's really gonna work innit? Parts of the country adopting this already. Tis gonna be a right royal **** up.

Credit crunch?

Don't have any, never had and hopefully never will. The only borrowing I've ever done is my mortgage.

If I can't afford it I don't buy it

saying you don't have any credit apart from a mortgage is like saying I don't have any guns, apart from this tank.

Well not really.

Think of it as rent, but you get a free house after 25 years. And your landlord is the bank but never comes around and lets you do whatever you want to your house.

molgrips - Member
True, but wouldn't you rather be part-time than unemployed?

Only for my state of mind but not if I was worse off than being on the dole.

It costs to work; diesel, food, clothing - all adds up.

Well not really.

Think of it as rent,

well think of it again as credit - as in whether or not credit is available to you. In the context of a comment about the 'credit crunch' and how someone considers themselves to be be unaffected by it. In terms of banks' willingness to lend and the terms of those loans

As an example I'm really quite well off in the scheme of things, but not mortgage-worthy.

Binners - would you describe yourself as left of center in your politics 🙂

Child poverty is an utter disgrace and needs to be addressed, I'm appalled the governments of all colours have failed miserably to address the issue. Didn't the last lot fail to meet their own targets?

The problem is how do you address it and what definition of poverty do you use. One definition is anyone earning less than 2/3 of the average wage is in poverty. Average wage for a male in the UK in 2012 is £30,790 (according to payscale inc) Now call me a raving Tory but I wouldn't call £20k a year, or £384 a week poverty.

How to address it is another question but has to start with getting this bloody economy moving and getting people back into work. How you do that, if your not going to rely on growing an already bloated civil service, is serious rapid investment in major infrastructure projects like high speed rail links to the midlands and the North. A new airport in the Thames Estuary and new Power generation, renewable or Nuclear.

Vote for me I'll upset everybody.....

One definition is anyone earning less than 2/3 of the average wage is in poverty.

It is not 2/3 of the average wage. It is 60% of the median household income.

Binners - would you describe yourself as left of center in your politics

Binners isn't left-wing, he is anti-Tory.

Now call me a raving Tory

You're a raving Tory.

Truly sickening report, worse is that it hasn't changed from 3 years ago. Both my sister (and my mother before she retired) took fruit and packed up homemade curry, pasta and things into work when they could (both teachers) to give to some of the kids because the growling stomachs of some of the kids became too upsetting to have to listen to in the classroom.

Didn't the last lot fail to meet their own targets?

They did indeed. But their targets were very bold. And they still made a huge difference

The first thing this lot did was to abolish the targets altogether. I think that sent out a pretty strong message about which direction they saw their policies taking us in

Binners - would you describe yourself as left of center in your politics

Damn!! My true identity's been rumbled

[img] [/img]

😉

lol Binners Crowe... See you at Euston next time you go on strike mate 😀

Ernie I'm struggling to find a group that uses that definition of relative poverty, where did it come from? I've looked at poverty action group, Berando's and others. I was surprised to see that the definition of poverty from Bernado's is £349 a week for a family of four. I'm not suggesting its wrong i just had my eyes opened!

I'm generally anti self serving politician, which is most of them in my opinion. That said I'm also anti people who can work not working. The tax and benefits system needs reform, like a sliding scale of benefit reduction as you earn more, to make working is always more lucrative than not, but equally that those in need get what they need and are not disenfranchised or socially excluded.

Ernie I'm struggling to find a group that uses that definition of relative poverty, where did it come from?

60% of the median household income is what the UK government uses as the poverty threshold.

Can't trust them.....

Eh ?

The UK government's definition of poverty relates to a household income of less than 60% of the median, they don't define it as 2/3 of the average wage.

That's how it is - the issue of "trust" doesn't come into it.

😕

You expect reality from Newsnight ?

60% of the median household income is what the UK government uses as the poverty threshold

and the thing people have difficulty with is the difference between a median income and and average wage.

the average wage is skewed by the very small number of ultra high earners, so the 'average' is much higher than what the majority of people earn and infact the average wage is higher than what most households earn.

The average wage is a figure thats banded about so much that most politicians when asked can't even guess close to the median wage.

I [i]think[/i] the median [u]household[/u] income is about £420

LOL that didn't work then, i was implying you simply can't trust politicians.

It's interesting that their definition is not the same as the NGOs working in the field. The 60% of median household income is approximately £286 a week which is a shed load lower than the £349 Bernardo's work on.
More interesting is that the £286 figure goes down as the median income goes down in a recession thereby lowering the number of families in poverty.

Says it all really

The UK government's definition of poverty relates to a household income of less than 60% of the median,

Equalised to account for size of household

and worth mentioning that by the 60% measure Ernie is so proud of, child poverty, adult working age and pensioner poverty rates actually fell last year ! (as Gwello rightly says, because household median income fell)

Three types of lies - "lies, damn lies and statistics"

I think the average earnings figures are skewed downwards by part time workers. There are 5 wage earners in my household, myself, wife and my three kids. Only I work full time.

Anyway in responce to the original post, yes it's bad and its going to get much worse.

Gwello,

Poverty in the UK is really a 'relative' term though. http://www.poverty.org.uk/summary/social%20exclusion.shtml so it makes sense that it is measured against the "rest of society's ability to pay"

You have to be careful when you use different people's scales to measure poverty. There are various factors which are included / excluded:

- Before Housing Costs
- After Housing Costs (deduct rent or mortgage interest but not capital)
- Household size, 'corrected' for the number of adults, children <14 and children >14.

I'm fairly sure that Barnados are using the same data set and the same 60% threshold the difference is in those points. Depending on 'your audience' it may be useful to use the version that gives you the biggest or the smallest number! At the end of the day if you only have about £12 a day per person for food, heating, clothing, transport, phone/internet/tv, booze/fags, books/toys, etc then you are probably living below the poverty line...

and worth mentioning that by the 60% measure Ernie is so proud of

Ernie is so proud of ? What the hell are you talking about Z-11 ? Why would I be "proud" of the way the UK government defines poverty ffs ?

You need help mate, seriously, your attempts to have a pop at me are getting more bizarre and weird.

😕

Hi Poly,

I know its a relative term and i also know about the before and after housing costs calculations. And I agree £12 a days not a lot to feed a family on.

A mate of mine is Head Chef in an OAP's home, he gets about £13 a week each to feed them three times a day. Which I think is ridiculous.

A mate of mine is Head Chef in an OAP's home, he gets about £13 a week each to feed them three times a day. Which I think is ridiculous.

A mate of mine is Head Chef in an OAP's home, he gets about £13 a week each to feed them three times a day. Which I think is ridiculous.

Strange when care homes charge up to a thousand quid a week for bed and meals.

Some people think theyree poor because theyve had to down grade their sky sub, or cant go to Mc d,s every day.

There will always br well off peeps and poorer people , so that poorer peeps have something to aspire to and well off peeps have something to fear and keep working .

If you think it's bad now wait until interest rates start to go up again. Whilst I tend to gravitate towards the ****less poor vi. New we do have genuine problem in that there are not enough jobs out there even if everyone wanted to work and an even bigger problem with a significant number of people being unemployable due to a lack of skills, intelligence or attitude. The latter being the biggest issue. It's easy to blame the individuals but it's a much bigger issue with politicians, advertisers and to some extent the support services giving people unrealistic expectations of what life can be like. All a bit depressing really. I don't know how you lower expectations whilst still maintaining social mobility for those people who make the effort to change their circumstances.