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It's a fairly reasonable assumption, given the OP, that the video in question does not show him doing up his tie.
I think the point being made by many on this thread is not whether or not the police should act (we don’t have enough evidence to judge) but that based on the info given, the police and not the school should be making that decision
My replies have been to a specific statement by the op that a criminal offence has been carried out by taking a photo in a private scenario and asking what actual offence has been committed rather than referring to the general hue and cry on this thread.
However a school with safeguarding trained staff, policies and more knowledge of what actually occurred may be perfectly capable of deciding that no crime has been committed and it’s not a police matter as has the kid’s father. The details are sparse in this story.
It’s a fairly reasonable assumption, given the OP, that the video in question does not show him doing up his tie.
Yes but the image, for a criminal offence in Protection of childrens act has to be indecent. That is judged, ultimately, by a jury of magistrate on the image alone. Therefore a child dressing is unlikely to be indecent, hence why people aren’t arrested for pictures of their kids getting dressed, in the bath etc - the image isn’t indecent.
My replies have been to a specific statement by the op that a criminal offence has been carried out
You're abslutely right to point this out - there are several levels at which an offence might have been committed, ranging from the relatively benign - a picture of someone made and shared without permission in a place where they have a right to privacy - through to an indecent picture of a child, made and shared through a public communications network.
The question you ask is important; I cannot give you the specific legislation that covers it but it falls under the Human Rights Act and is explained here:
To reiterate, I do not know if the video footage was 'indecent' (and I do not know what the legal definition of that term even is though of course, at the extreme end, it is fairly obvious), and neither does my friend. We just know that a video was made of her son in the changing rooms whilst he was getting changed.
It might not show nudity but it most definitely has humiliated him to the point where he does not want to attend school.
there are several levels at which an offence might have been committed, ranging from the relatively benign – a picture of someone made and shared without permission in a place where they have a right to privacy
Slightly misquoted, my view is that a picture of someone made and shared without permission in a place where they have a right to privacy , without a sexual / indecency element, does not constitute a criminal offence. It may be /probably is a breach of article 8;
Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.
IANAL and happy to be corrected
It’s a fairly reasonable assumption, given the OP, that the video in question does not show him doing up his tie.
Experience would suggest that assuming anything would be a mistake. It took until page 2 for the OP to admit they didn't know. Meanwhile in the interim half the forum had leapt to conclusions and were talking about arresting a 13-year old and putting him on the sex offenders' register.
it most definitely has humiliated him to the point where he does not want to attend school.
Want vengeance? Spread the rumour that the other kid is the gaylord who goes around filming other boys' willies.
😁
Wow.
I would offer the following.
1. child removed from the school.
2. if not removed referred to the police.
what were the phones doing in the changing area anyway? School needs to review this imo.
Phone checked in at registration and handed back at the end of the day would be one rule I enact if I were the head teacher along with a zero tolerance and, bordering on heavy handed, approach to bullying. Like I say, it's a trigger for me as it's something I experienced as a child at school also.
Slightly misquoted,
You know you're probably right; it might not be a criminal offence so much as it is some other type of offence I don't know the legal definition of.
what were the phones doing in the changing area anyway? School needs to review this imo.
Whilst I don't disagree, I'd imagine that would incredibly difficult to enforce.
Plus you'll almost certainly get pushback from a section of parents whose little Hermione absolutely must have her phone on her at all times Just In Case.
It might not show nudity but it most definitely has humiliated him to the point where he does not want to attend school.
This is critical for me, along with earlier comments about the victim of this needs to know 100% that he should not feel this way.
Regardless of criminality, the lad who did this gets a day off of school while the victim doesn’t want to go.
If this happened to any of my kids I would be livid and would at the very least be looking to understand why the school has taken this course of action.
The recent change in the law to outlaw 'upskirting' highlights a significant gap in the legislation.
Basically, if you stick your camera underneath someone's clothes and take a picture, it is an offence if you are doing it for sexual gratification, or 'to humiliate, alarm or distress' the person involved.
However, that definition has been applied only to upskirting, not to voyeurism in general, which seems like a massive oversight, given they were amending the same Act of Parliament. If I take a picture of someone naked/semi-naked in a changing room, but only for the purposes of humiliating them online (as has happened here), I'm in the clear!
We do if we read the OP.
OP only refers to the sex of one of the children..........
Work colleague was on the opposite end of this, his 12ish yo kid had shared nude images of a classmate, twice
First time he gets a telling off and is dealt with in school
Second time police show up unannounced at his house and take his kids phone
Probably won’t happen a third time now
OP only refers to the sex of one of the children……….
Read it again.
As a victim of bullying I found the OP really hard to read but one thing that I haven't seen anything about is this: how far has the video been shared? It would take very little for it to escape outside of the school and end up on the darker parts of the web. This is where police intervention can help as they can trace it.
I’m on the side of the victim here having been on the receiving end in my school years. It can affect you for a long time and the ribbing they will receive will eat away at their confidence among other things.
Full police intervention may not be proportionate but the whole party of sharers need to understand the issue. As we have discussed so far, how that message is communicated is the real challenge. Needs lasting impact.
Same thoughts as me, for similar reasons. My school always tried to brush any bullying under the carpet as it would tarnish their reputation, didn't do any good. I was bullied all the way through school and one individual in particular was particularly good at escalating his actions without getting caught. The school never really did anything about any incident over my time there so after I'd been there 2 years (13 years old) the bullies were that brazen that they felt fine to properly beat me up in the middle of the playing field for no reason whatsoever. As in I I left in an ambulance with a suspected broken back and serious concussion after passing out. Even after that the school did no more than have (another) meeting with the parents and the bullies getting a few day's suspension, which they used to go play in the local park as it was the beginning of summer! Thanks to the school taking very little action and playing it off as just kids being kids one of the lads that beat me up has since gone on to being recently locked up for beating up his girlfriend.
The school need to act now and take the incident seriously for the benefit of all involved. To not do so is a failure of their responsibility.
he school never really did anything about any incident over my time there so after I’d been there 2 years (13 years old) the bullies were that brazen that they felt fine to properly beat me up in the middle of the playing field for no reason whatsoever. As in I I left in an ambulance with a suspected broken back and serious concussion after passing out.
Awful. There are so many people who are scarred for life even by a brief period of bullying at school, can't imagine how shitty that must have been for you. And as you say, failure to punish it properly acts as an endorsement, encouraging the bully and destroying the victim. Both their characters are being moulded for life during this period, and both are being failed.
I have witnessed the effects instances like these can have on a child.
My 13 year old step daughter had explicit pictures of her taken and shared at school, it's taken 5 years to get her life back on track with immense courage. Within 2 months of the incident she was no longer attending school, moved to another school, images also get shared there, cycle repeats again. Then the drinking started, stealing, drug taking, constant contact with the police and going missing 3-4 times a week. By the age of 14 she had been arrested multiple times for petty crimes usually committed whilst drunk, by the age of 15 she was registered as an alcoholic and was admitted to a secure hospital to detox, AT FIFTEEN. At 16 she tried to take her own life.
Let alone the effect it had on me and my partners relationship, and the financial costs that ran into thousands.
I'm glad to say that her life finally has turned around, she has managed to get into to her dream career and is doing well due to moving well away from home and having no contact with any of her childhood friends, As she says 'I can only look forwards now'.
Actions always have consequences. The school, police, social services failed in their duty.
This is more than a 'silly mistake'
Read it again.
OK, finally worked it out.......
Plus you’ll almost certainly get pushback from a section of parents whose little Hermione absolutely must have her phone on her at all times Just In Case.
I don't think there's a Hermione in my daughter's year, but I can confirm that they're not allowed to have their phones during the day.
I have witnessed the effects instances like these can have on a child.
Jesus man. I'm glad you're all sorted, that sounds horrific for all involved.
I don’t think there’s a Hermione in my daughter’s year
I did wonder if that was a bit 20th Century but I'm not sufficiently down with the homies to come up with anything more on fleek.
The concern should be for the child victim. I'd be in there finding out what support could be offered and what punishment is needed . It needs to be severe enough to stop others. As has been said a few posts ago, this can affect the victim really badly - what support do they get - if, like my son's school, none usually. He was bullied by a particular individual for years, unfortunately, he came from a well known 'bad' family, so his parent's didn't care - even the threat of the police if an assault happened again, just sparked the 'nanna' to go off in a rage.
@ziggy - that's a horrible set of events which is sadly not that uncommon. Really good to hear she's turned things around and put all behind her.
@martinhutch - it's completely shaped who I am and has affected me my whole life. The bullying started in primary school (first memory is of being pushed off a wall when I was 4) and it never stopped all the way until I left uni. Had a bit of a respite before it reared it's head at work (bullies can sniff out a victim easily) and it's only since the 1st lockdown I've managed to stay bully-free!
Bullying is just as mentally damaging as physical, we all need to take it much more seriously and getting the OP's friend's school to do so now is a good step.
Turning into a typical STW thread?
From some of the responses, I don't think it's only me here who deals with the sharp end of this stuff as their day-to-day but what actually should happen (and would happen in a school who know how to deal with this) seems to have got drowned out by the what-ifs and if-only-you'd-read-it-right stuff...
As an aside, in my 5+ years working in my current school where we do have a 'hand your phone in at the start and pick it up before you go home' policy, I'm not aware of a single serious moan from any adult at home about that policy. It's not perfect, as some students do try to keep their device with them (and we deal with that as a pretty serious transgression if discovered) but it is one of the safest schools I've worked in as a result of having no phones and therefore also no cameras in use around the site.
I think incandescent would cover my feelings about the incident and the schools handling of it.
Looks like judetheobscure should have stayed a little more obscure. The only surprise is that this thread has survived.
Your response is correct in my opinion. Give the kid a fright. Kids are daft and make mistakes but they need to learn from them as this is part of growing up.
But if I was the father of the person who'd been filmed and I bumped into the kid who did the filming. Then I'd need to show some serious restraint not to throttle them.