[Closed] Just how angry and vengeful would you be if this happened to your kid at school

I agree with you that the whole "what happens in school, stays in school" approach to such issues results in kids knowing that they're untouchable. I'm not sure the police will do much though. I agree with you that it needs to be taken more seriously... by who, and at whose instigation is a tricky path to navigate though. Really feel for the kid and the parents. I think that as either the kid or the parents I would be very unhappy with a one day suspension and general talk to the school.

Maybe it's different in England but if that happened in Scotland the cops would have to be involved.

It doesn't matter that it's minors who've done it it's still sharing of inappropriate images of a child.

I’m with you OP. If that wasn’t in school it would be dealt with much more seriously than a one day exclusion.

My autistic son received far harsher punishment for behaviour even when his educational needs weren’t being met, actually it was systematic failure of the school in not meeting his needs.

The fact the school want to keep it in-house is to avoid the seriousness of the incident being reported to the police and LEA. I’d be doing anything and everything to make it a police matter.

It is exceptionally serious, and should be treated as such.
But, it’s also important to keep perspective, they’re kids, kids do stupid shit precisely because they’re kids and lack the insight to danger that adults have.
I reckon

the police treat it like the criminal office that it is and whilst not demand the boy is prosecuted, I think him being arrested and then let off with a warning sends a much stronger message to the school community

Is probably the way to go.
Allowing kids to think they’re untouchable is not doing them any favours in the long run.

I might be over reacting

You might be.

the approach being advocated by the father is to not involve the police and be happy with the school’s current response, which is a one day exclusion for the culprit and a general talk from a police officer about the dangers of social media.

Is it a 13 year old kid who tried to play a prank and didn't think about it, or a kid with a history of bullying? Kids do dumb shit sometimes, I know I did when I was that age. Without knowing the circumstances, I'm on the dad's side on this. Being angry is understandable, but will calling in police to terrorize 13 year old kids actually achieve anything that just talking to them won't?

Yep inappropriate image of a child. Sharing of an inappropriate image both illegal. Mrs 100th deals with RSOs and this would have the child on the register.
Maybe also raise that the adult who hold the credit agreement for the phone has responsibility for it's use I'm sure there's an "allowing" crime there too.

To answer your question ****ing livid.

Is it a 13 year old kid who tried to play a prank and didn’t think about it, or a kid with a history of bullying? 

That doesn't matter, sharing inappropriate images of a child is illegal. Get the cops in and make sure due process occurs. If its a prank gone wrong then that will be taken into account but the proper authorities need to make those decisions and the proper authority here is not the school or even the parents, it's the police.

Yes, yes it will be
He will have to have a parent there as well as he is a minor.
They might have to arrest him, interview under caution then release or un arrest, pending further inquiries which might or might not happen
If the family feel the need he might be kept waiting for a duty solicitor.
This might make the guy think abit more before recording naked people amd sharing via the Internet.
I am sure there are many laws against that kind of thing

I would be very pissed off. It's not just 'a prank'. A prank would be to pretend you'd done it then admit you hadn't, or something similar. This is an actual offence.

Also, knowing how kids can be very self-conscious at this age, I would suggest that letting the kid off with a talking to is not enough.

There are kids around and about where we live who you hear about every so often and they've just gone and done something 'next level' from the last time. I think a bit of terrorising is in order here.

The whole 'hush it up and handle it internally' thing is how proper 'beasts' get away with it for so long.

It does sound like a criminal offence has been committed. This shouldn’t be swept under the carpet and should be reported.

The Criminal Justice System doesn’t exist to satisfy a desire for personal vengeance but this incident does offer an opportunity for a life lesson to whoever filmed this but also those who have distributed it.

As above, i would be asking the school for a meeting with the head/deputy and their police liaison officer to discuss the way ahead, i wouldn't be leaving it in the schools hands, as they are looking at the image of the school, and possibly the offenders parents talking about their little angel.

the police liaison should be able to provide the suitable options, but a 1 day exclusion, that's not even a punishment, that's a day off school for breaking the law!

The school needs to step up and involve the police.
It will show that they do actually care about the children who go there and will scare the crap out of anyone thinking that this is an ok thing to do.

Maybe the school is scared of bad publicity.

The victim needs to know he matters. Police should be involved.

I'd have honestly thought the school don't have a choice, this surely must be something they have to report by law.

I’d have honestly thought the school don’t have a choice, this surely must be something they have to report by law.

Yep handling internally badly smells a cover up.

Although we don’t know the full extent of it ,the video may not have been that bad and the school feels that it was silliness as opposed to malice and handling it the way they are may have a better outcome.

I’d have honestly thought the school don’t have a choice

I'm surprised the school have a choice here.  You can't tell if the school are not taking it further because they know something you don't or because someone has out pressure on them.   The one day punishment sounds incredibly light compared to what the child who was videoed went through.  Something doesn't feel quite right

I would want the police involved even if only for a severe telling off.

to me this idea of using the police for a telling off seems like a waste of police time and anyway who makes the decision to prosecute?

Its either let the school deal with it and press for a harsher punishment or get the police involved and the perp gets arrested and prosecuted and goes on the sex offenders register. Is that proportionate? I do not know but its a drastic step

Personally I would need more info but I don't think the halfway house of getting the police involved but not prosecuting is right

Same as weeksy. The school shouldn’t decide, the police should be informed and let them deal with it.

it seems to me that the school is trying to brush it under the carpet.

i would inform the police and ask the school and the LEA for an explanation of why the situation was handled in the way that it was.

after i had calmed down.

What does the kid want? It may be malicious or it may be stupidity, but he's probably in the best position to judge that.

or get the police involved and the perp gets arrested and prosecuted and goes on the sex offenders register. 

There are quite a few options for police involvement short of that.

As you say though, we don’t know the details and I for one don't want to know!

What does the kid want?

If a crime has been committed then it's not really up to them is it?

There are quite a few options for police involvement short of that.

Are there? The police do not make the decision to prosecute or not - thats with the procurator fiscal or CPS. The police cannot decide to drop what is potentially a very serious offense - filming a child undressing and posting it on tik tok

I think it’s safe to assume that we don’t and won’t know about the decision making behind the scenes - I am certain that it will have been raised to the safeguarding team and options discussed before decisions were made, and they will have all the evidence in front of them. The school do have a duty to report it and will have done.

I’d imagine if Ofsted heard about the school’s strategy, they’d be swooping in fairly sharpish, given their normal approach to safeguarding. I’m really not impressed with the school here if the OP is describing it accurately.

EDIT:

I am certain…

I wish we could be certain. Unfortunately, sometimes, the chain of decision making gets a bit broken by someone hoping not to make a big deal of it all.

If a crime has been committed then it’s not really up to them is it?

Maybe not, but surely they should have some input. If its a prank by a friend gone wrong they would probably not want to be putting them on the sex offenders register.

I would be asking the school to demonstrate where they have given education to the kids to say that this is not ok. By the age of 13 they should have had that

I’d be asking the parent why they haven’t had that conversation with the kid

Depending on results OFSTED and Police

I wish we could be certain. Unfortunately, sometimes, the chain of decision making gets a bit broken by someone hoping not to make a big deal of it all.

This is too true in my experience. I was basing my assumption on the info that the school had offered low level police involvement, meaning they knew about it. If they do, Ofsted will also be aware via the Safeguarding team.

That’s what should be happening anyway!!

As I tell my kids be very careful what you post on the internet as there will always be a trail to what has been posted.

I would be raging if anyone posted anything like this prank or not the child that posted the images need to feel the full weight of the law if only to set an example to other kids.

I'm sick to the back teeth of kids getting off lightly and not learning lessons, it's the problem we have with knife crime now, if you got 5 years for carrying a knife kids just wouldn't.

Is it a fee paying school by any chance?

Vengeful?

the child that posted the images need to feel the full weight of the law if only to set an example to other kids.

crimial record and on the sex offenders register? Proportionate?

if you got 5 years for carrying a knife kids just wouldn’t.

an approach known not to work at all.

That’s what should be happening anyway!!

Sorry, yes. I didn’t mean my post to be criticising yours. 😀 I’d hope, as you say, all correct procedures had been followed too.

It doesn’t matter that it’s minors who’ve done it it’s still sharing of inappropriate images of a child.

This.

It's a safeguarding issue. The school should have made a referral to their local authorities child safeguarding service, ask them for the referral reference number.

The school "should" have made the referral at the end of the day they became aware and the local authority child safeguarding service "should" process the referral within 24hrs.

If you want impartial child safeguarding advice contact the NSPCC.

How to best deal with the kid who took the video probably depends on whether this is a one off or part of a history of bullying.

But I would also be very keen to see every single person who forwarded the message getting a bollocking too. It might not be fully traceable, but every recipient of the first share at least should be given a talking to, probably from the police if they did anything other than delete it immediately.

The quite understandable sensitivity over sexual offences involving children - and this involves the creation and distribution of indecent images of a child - means that the police don't necessarily have the discretion to just make the perpetrator sweat a bit then let him off with a warning. I'm not sure a caution is available for this offence, so it would need to be referred to the CPS for a charging decision.

If the school has a statutory responsibility to report this, then the police may get involved anyway.

If I were the parent though, I think I'd be looking for the child responsible to be removed from the school, both so the victim doesn't have to share classes with him, and for the message it sends both to him and his peer group about this kind of behaviour.

Mention of sex offenders register seems draconian if we assume it's a one off but I guess it's there to protect against repeat offending?

The fact it's travelled so far in school is bad news for the offender. An example has to be made that will shock widely and deeply. So expulsion seems appropriate.

As I understand it, NPCC guidelines are that it is up to the school to decide whether to involve the police. Whether they do that or not depends on circumstantial evidence that we are unaware of (track record of the child who made the video, nature of the images etc).

When I was at school I witnessed someone pull an air pistol on another student and say “I’m going to shoot you” before lodging an air dart in his eyebrow. The offending child had thought the safety lock was on. The response was a lecture in assembly from the headmaster. The student who brought the air pistol into school was utterly mortified. No further action was taken because of his track record and his response to the incident (despite the boy who was shot being the son of a school governor). It was an appropriate response from the school.

I'd say the current approach risks the outcome of the victim being known as that changing room guy, and the perpetrator being known as the legend that did it and got away with it. Fine line between pranks and bullying, and bullies learn to tread it - I know (from the victim side).

Also replace son with daughter and consider the situation and decisions.

Same as weeksy. The school shouldn’t decide, the police should be informed and let them deal with it.

Definitely this. Quite serious offences have been committed and even if their ages suggest its not a prosecution matter, Police involvement needs to reinforce the seriousness.

Seen the damage that serious offences in school can escalate to when the school try and deal with stuff themselves.

Mention of sex offenders register seems draconian

it would be the outcome of a criminal prosecution tho surely?

it would be the outcome of a criminal prosecution tho surely?

Depends on the charges, the verdict and the sentencing guidelines.

None of which may happen when the Police and CPS have investigated the facts.

Jesus. I can't believe there are people on this thread advocating ruining someone's life over this kind of childish idiocy.Sex offenders register? Are you mad?

The kid should be given a week long suspension, a real bollocking and a good talking to by the local police with his parents.

Well I got arrested and given a police caution in Yr 11 for beating a classmate up who was relentlessly verbally bullying me.

Rightly or wrongly..

So the parents should report it to the police directly. A formal arrest /caution might give the perp a wakeup call if the school won't.

Sex offenders register? Are you mad?

No one has called for that. TJ has suggested that police involvement can only lead to that. No one else is making that assumption. Most people think the police should be involved... and you seem to agree...

a good talking to by the local police with his parents

The comments have been very useful thank you indeed.

Vengeful? My point there was just that; the right and wrong of this incident is different to how angry you feel and how far you would want your anger to drive retribution. It's precisely why we don't let victims have a say in sentencing, because vengence is a terrible thing that needs tempering.

I do not know the nuance in this case, just that making and sharing an image of someone in a place where they have a right to privacy is a crime (I am certain of this because of my photography work); it is entirely possible that the video is not indecent in anyway, just deeply shaming. If it is indecent, then that is a whole other issue but I just don't know and to be honest neither does the mother.

A crime has definitely been committed and it needs to be treated very seriously. How seriously is dependent on the nature of the video captured and shared I guess but even at it's most benign, I think it needs to be treated for what it is.

I think something important needs to be considered here - by the school and everyone involved. The long term impact this sort of thing can have on a 13 year old boy is profound - that sort of thing being seen by almost everyone a kid knows is traumatic.

The kid and everyone else who has seen that video needs to know it’s absolutely not ok. I’d also consider a session or two with a therapist.

The kid should be given a week long suspension, a real bollocking and a good talking to by the local police with his parents.

That's almost exactly what happened to a kid who did the same in Madame's school. Seemed resaonable to me.

Tbh I'm amazed the school allow phones into the changing rooms. Asking for all sorts of trouble. How you would control this I have no idea but the head teacher needs an ear full too.

When I was at school I witnessed someone pull an air pistol on another student and say “I’m going to shoot you” before lodging an air dart in his eyebrow. The offending child had thought the safety lock was on. The response was a lecture in assembly from the headmaster.

Which decade was this in??! If you'd brought an air pistol into my school, never mind point it at someone, you'd have been in far worse trouble. What a nuts story.. for a start... why would you load an air pistol if you didn't intend firing it? The safety lock line makes no sense at all.

Yeah, we're going back to stories from the 70s and 80s now, where you'd be beaten to death and then made to lick the lead paint of the walls.

As stated earlier in this thread, the school will have liaison officers at the police, OFSTED safeguarding, etc, for every 'you don't want to cause too much problems for 13 year old' you have to remember the flip side of horrific bullying that can lead to horrible endings, without context we know nothing, hence why going through the proper channels is important.

I would never leave it with just the school, as that means there is no record in reality, what happens the next time this happens, the old 'hindsight is a wonderful thing' will be a bit pointless.

Some kid brought and air gun into my school and shot a few people too. 1974 IIRC. Probably yet another caning, the headmaster loved that, any excuse would do. As the brightest kid in the school I regularly got attacked and then got caned for defending myself too well.

I got smashed over the head with a metal pipe when i was 7 in 1985, the kid that did it was sent to a youth detention place, but that was after a few more incidents, he was expelled for the pipe incident though.

I'd say contact the police directly if the school isn't taking it very seriously (it's pretty serious if you ask me.. If this child is allowed to think there are no repercussions for this sort of behaviour).

Even if the police just do a pretend arrest and interview at the station coupled with a good talking to.

It's obvious it would be a sex crime if they were over 16, so they need to be taught some boundaries.

Even if the police just do a pretend arrest and interview at the station coupled with a good talking to

I'm pretty sure that this sort of thing isn't a thing these days if in fact it ever was.

Skimmed this thread and I’m not sure that any criminal offence has been committed , voyerism needs a sexual gratification nexus under SOA, apart from up skirting, which seems to be missing, nor is there anything to indicate an indecent image has been created. Therefore it may not actually be a police matter. (IANAL and been out of the Csea ambit for a while)

The quite understandable sensitivity over sexual offences involving children – and this involves the creation and distribution of indecent images of a child – means that the police don’t necessarily have the discretion to just make the perpetrator sweat a bit then let him off with a warning. I’m not sure a caution is available for this offence, so it would need to be referred to the CPS for a charging decision.

If the school has a statutory responsibility to report this, then the police may get involved anyway.

If I were the parent though, I think I’d be looking for the child responsible to be removed from the school, both so the victim doesn’t have to share classes with him, and for the message it sends both to him and his peer group about this kind of behaviour.

This is pretty much my opinion too.

There's a balance to be struck between proportionate punishment, deterrence for others and the impact to the victim.

If an offence has been committed (or is even suspected) then it should be reported, the police/CPS may not feel prosecution or Sex offenders register is appropriate, they will have to liaise with the school/LEA and social services not just make the call in isolation. But it's not a decision for the school to take without other agencies being fully involved.

A days exclusion and the ensuing bollocking from Mum and dad isn't really enough is it, they need to know just how unacceptable what they did was and how close they came to damaging their future prospects. a full blown investigation and interview under caution may be sufficient to properly scare the shit out of the perpetrator.

On top of all of this the Social media platform(s) concerned need to be informed and pushed for action, bannings and restrictions, etc could well help to curb such behaviour further...

When our lad was year 5 or 6, so 9 or 10 years ago, one of his friends was ambushed in the primary school toilets by a lad who pulled out a screwdriver and threatened to stab him.

The kid got a one day suspension - general view was that even at that age more should have been done.

Seem to recall that when I was at primary school back in the 70s, one of the "smelly kids" as they were known at the time came in to school with a bayonet he said his grandad had got in the war.

Was the last time he was seen at school. He lived in a rundown cottage up the road from us and around the same time they suddenly moved out. Rumour had it social services were involved and the kids had gone into care. So hopefully some good came from it all.

voyerism needs a sexual gratification

This sounds right but the taking and publishing without consent, of an image in a place where the subject has a reasonable right to privacy, is a criminal act.

This is one of the reasons why we don't allow phones in our school...

As someone who deals with incidents like this (thankfully not very often) as part of their job, it all depends on context which is always tough to understand from the outside, and also from one version of events as in the OP.

In general, my/our approach would be...

- Gather as much evidence as possible from all parties.
- Refer to our Safer Schools Officer - would take his advice on whether 'full' Police involvement would be necessary. Would also always advise parents to contact the Police themselves.
- Decide on appropriate school sanction for the perpetrator. Unless there are massive mitigating circumstances, this would be likely to be pretty severe in this case but permanent exclusion would be a last resort. I suspect that we would look for either a long term placement in our on site referral unit or a managed move to another local school.
- Put into place a plan of support for the victim. This is not just the right thing to do but a central part of the current Peer-On-Peer abuse process (that most schools with any sense are all over at the moment).

apologies if this has been mentioned, but I recently did a safeguarding course that was run by someone from the police, from my understanding this should have been reported by the school and phone taken, the police can wipe the video from the phone and also traces of it from elsewhere.

This sounds right but the taking and publishing without consent, of an image in a place where the subject has a reasonable right to privacy, is a criminal act.

Curious, under what act?

I dare say it will vary, but don’t be too surprised if the local police don’t have a huge appetite for dishing out a bollocking/stern talking to etc.

Last time I did that, at the express request of the parents of a 10 year old child who had been stealing other kids stuff, they came in the next day and made a formal complaint because the kid had wet his bed that night and was now scared of the police. Hence it was the last time. I didn’t even shout, just a hard stare and a stern voice.

I'm on the side of the victim here having been on the receiving end in my school years. It can affect you for a long time and the ribbing they will receive will eat away at their confidence among other things.
Full police intervention may not be proportionate but the whole party of sharers need to understand the issue. As we have discussed so far, how that message is communicated is the real challenge. Needs lasting impact.

I'm down for the full weight of the law being involved. I think half of today's societal problems are down to perpetrators knowing they'll get away with it, so the earlier we can nip that in the bud the better.

If it was my kid as the victim I'd be asking the school exactly what universe they think dealing with a child sex crime internally was suitable, and what the fact they've decided to do just that might say about the private peccadilloes of the school board.

The victim needs to know he matters. Police should be involved.

This.

Curious, under what act?

Well, it’s under review by the government, but it says in the review document below:

”in many cases this behaviour will already be caught by a number of existing offences such as ‘voyeurism’ under the Sexual Offences Act 2003.”

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/law-around-non-consensual-taking-making-and-sharing-of-sexual-images-to-be-reviewed

Without bothering to look it up I was pretty sure that there was legislation that covers this sort of situation, because, and I hate to have to point this out, this isn’t exactly a new phenomenon, it’s just that modern technology enables it so much easier.

I agree with the thoughts about the victim, they might brush it off but they might have to live with this for the rest of their school life. There needs to be serious repercussions to ensure there are no ongoing issues otherwise the victim will struggle to feel safe at school.

from my understanding... the police can wipe the video from the phone and also traces of it from elsewhere.

I hope you didn't pay actual money for that course.

Once it's out there you can't 'wipe traces' any more than you can ban Welsh. And in any case if that were possible, the police aren't equipped to wipe much beyond their own arses. That would be a specialist task.

https://learning.nspcc.org.uk/Search?term=Sexting

I've only skimmed a few posts.

Angry and upset? Yes.
Vengeful? No.
IIRC in Scotland this couldn't be internal, the police would have to be involved. Under any safeguarding policy, this is one that would be referred upwards to police.
I also think the bigger issue as a couple have said on this page is the victim. They need huge support now and ongoing, and to feel that the system supported them, not covered something up.

From that link above (my bold of the if).

"It's a criminal offence to create or share explicit images of a child, even if the person doing it is a child. If sexting is reported to the police, they will make a record but may decide not take any formal action against a young person"

I'm sorry if it's a criminal offence then it's reported as such. Police investigate CPS/fiscal decide whether to prosecute. There are consequences to actions and we may not like them but we live by them. Pour encourager Les autres.

”in many cases this behaviour will already be caught by a number of existing offences such as ‘voyeurism’ under the Sexual Offences Act 2003.

As mentioned above the voyeurism under SOA requires a sexual gratification act, likewise an indecent image of a child (IIOC)tends to requires a degree of sexuality to meet the threshold for being indecent, how the photo was taken doesn’t matter it is the image itself which is tested for indecency. From the ops vague description, a child getting dressed / undressed, this does not seem to constitute an indecent image nor voyeurism.
So we’re still waiting for what criminal offence has been committed for the years police to act under.

straight over to the police, can't believe anything else is being suggested, report as criminal offence, parents of the kid doing the filming are responsible for their child, right?

the school cover up approach stinks.

I might be over reacting

Yes, i think you may be. While the victim is a child, so is the perpetrator, vengefulness has no place in this

So we’re still waiting for what criminal offence has been committed for the years police to act under.

I think the point being made by many on this thread is not whether or not the police should act (we don't have enough evidence to judge) but that based on the info given, the police and not the school should be making that decision.

explicit images of a child,

Nobody has said that the video contains explicit images, for all we know the video could just show a child taking their shirt off. We also don't know the sexes of the children or the context.

A girl at a friends school filmed a 13 year old boy taking his shirt off and shared it along with descriptions along the line of 'look at his six pack'. As far as I know (from what I heard) the school dealt with it quite sensibly and responsibly, no need to involve the police.

n, the police can wipe the video from the phone and also traces of it from elsewhere.

this is trolling?

Nobody has said that the video contains explicit images

This is seemingly true. Which rather renders the entire discussion little more than pointless guesswork. "Getting changed" could be full-frontal nudity or putting his shoes on.

We also don’t know the sexes of the children

We do if we read the OP.