[Closed] Job not offering travel expenses when away from base location

Does the salary compensate for the lack of expenses? If not, jog on.

Sounds like they're taking the piss. I get everything paid for (well, I can claim it all back) and £40 for food and beer each night I'm away.

also accommodation when more than about 90 mins from home

That'll never work in Aberdeen with the traffic chaos here

Surely the client pay for the expenses? That's the way it always worked when I was doing travelling as part of the job. I'd be wary of working for a company who's not passing that through, they sound like they are undervaluing you.

Depends on the market i your industry ......

I know consultants who would kill for that now in the current market in my industry.... Something to do with 66 dollars a barrel 😉

As above, these should normally be covered but perhaps the market has/is changing.

As you say ratty, a lot of sqeaky bums around at the moment. I work for the 'green' one by you and the axe man cometh...

[quote=trail_rat ]Depends on the market i your industry ......
I know consultants who would kill for that now in the current market in my industry.... Something to do with 66 dollars a barrel

Oh am I gonna see a spate of oil service company premises spontaneously combusting very soon, as I did with fish houses in the late 90's

When you say consultant, do you mean contractor or permanently employed consultant? If the latter then run, that is outrageous. Consultancies always bill the client for their consultants expenses, so if this company isn't then they would appear to be going in on the cheap, and you don't want to work.for a company that tries to undercut everyone else...

I'm not sure how they've come up with this but it's a company who are mostly based in India and all this is coming from there. I seem to get told different things over the phone to what I get in emails when I push for confirmation, all a bit odd. They think they are paying me a high enough salary to cover my own expenses but seeing as the 1st project they'd put me on is 100 miles from home (inc the M25) then I'd have to stay over and I guess my costs could be around £1,500 / month. As travel could be anywhere in the UK I'd be leaving myself open to some high costs.

It could be a good role but I might be getting another job offer tomorrow which would cover expenses no question so maybe I'll be taking that. I think it will also have more than the 20 days holiday given by the 1st company which seems rather mean! Just have to see what salary they come up with.

These are permie roles, seems they fix price their projects - or at least don't charge expenses to the client.

From that last post I have no idea why you're even considering working for them

I seem to get told different things over the phone to what I get in emails when I push for confirmation, all a bit odd. They think they are paying me a high enough salary to cover my own expenses

You have won the nigerian lottery please pay me 1500 cash in escrow to release your funds....

TechM? TCS?

Depends on your clients contract whether they bill for expenses or it is an all in rate. However even if it is an all in rate I would still expect you to be able to claim back any expenses incurred, especially if you have a mobility clause in your contract.

If they want to play that game I'd ask to be employed as a contractor so you can claim the tax back off your expenses. Oh, and charge a much higher rate. If they are quibbling about expense rates they will have no problem dumping you for statutory redundancy so you may as well not bother with being perm.

It's a billion dollar company, project they've got for me is with a large company. I'm charitably thinking they have a bit of a communication problem 🙂 I've met a v senior guy in the practice I'd be joining who seems to think I'd be useful to help grow the practice in the UK. It could be a path into a management role whereas my other options are staying technical which I'm getting a bit bored with. If they don't offer to pay all my expenses I won't be joining them.

Never in 17 years have I ever worked for a company that didn't pay travel expenses (+ accommodation if overnighting). £50/month in your pocket equates to about £1k extra pay so at £1,500 that's effectively £30k more they should be paying you so I hope it's a very, very well paid job!
Is it even legal to refuse to pay expenses?

Screw that.

Part of travelling for work is staying in a nice hotel...takes the edge off working away from home.

Paying for it yourself would suck.

If work didn't pay my travel expenses I'd never get to eat fillet steak 🙁

My mate's wife in HR did suggest I could challenge them legally - perhaps I would have done if I'd joined and then discovered this! I don't really see how they can grow in the UK without paying expenses as all the experienced people who they'd want are used to getting them. It seems they have some permies who just rent a place close to the client. Maybe this model works for the sort of people (young/single?) who can live where the project is.

No consultants in my industry I know works without travel expenses, just wondering if it happens anywhere else. They seem to think I'm greedy - they even had to get special authorisation to pay the salary I asked for but the deal they're offering me (even ignoring the expenses thing) is worse than my old role but I was made redundant from that. Been contracting since then - amusingly my client paid my expenses! Just finished that role so looking for my next one.

You don't have a normal place of work, so your are not necessarily entitled to travel expenses as you are never away. Also on this particular job the client may not be willing to pay travel expenses. Now all that being said travelling more than 90 mins each day is a lot but I did similar to my normal place of work and paid £650 a month of my own money for the privilege. I'd say this isn't a clear cut case but if yiu dint want the job leave it to someone else

this but it's a company who are mostly based in India

AFAIK there is some loophole in Indian law that says if you work for an Indian company outside of India you are not covered by Indian employment law, or anyone else's. This allows the company to bend you over, and they do.

AVOID

You don't have a normal place of work

No, but you do have to live somewhere. All the time I've worked in these sorts of roles I've been technically based at home, and work out all my expenses from there. Including when I do go to the office. Not sure I could go back to paying for a regular commute, even when I cycle in I get 20p/mile to cover it.

I can understand some form of fixed payment to cover your expenses when away, but to not pay it at all is staggering. It's bad enough to be away from home on business without it coming from your own pocket too.

call me thick but I still can't tell if OP is a contractor or an employee.

separately, I am surprised so many consultancies would charge their clients travel expenses for work within the UK.

AFAIK there is some loophole in Indian law that says if you work for an Indian company outside of India you are not covered by Indian employment law, or anyone else's. This allows the company to bend you over, and they do.
AVOID

why would you want to be covered by Indian employment law? how much protection do you think it gives? how realistic would it be for OP to sue under Indian employment law if he had a dispute?

No expenses seems pretty rubbish but if the projects are in areas like London where clients will expect companies to have local consultants then I guess the clients may be reluctant to pay hotel costs etc.

I live in Cheltenham and work all over the country (and sometimes the world - writing this from Houston, Texas) and get my expenses paid but sometimes it can be a battle to get decent hotels. The hotel allowance is £100/night which is stupid for London (cannot even get a Travelodge) and becoming that way for the rest of the UK. I can normally get more expensive hotels signed off but it is a pain to get the approval before booking.

If I was the OP I would not even consider this role. Hotel prices are spiraling upwards and the £1,500/month figure could easily rise to £2,000+ if working in an area with high demand for hotels.

I guess you could stay in a hostel with shared facilities for £20/night but I would not do that when working

Don't leave the house unless expenses are covered here. If they are making grand promises but nothing else just remember you can't eat, burn or spend promises.
As for management will they be able to recruit anyone for you to manage?

Just add it indirectly into your charge.

how far are all the job locations for the OP?

My mate's wife in HR did suggest I could challenge them legally

My experience is that if you're having to do this sort of negotiation before even accepting a job offer when they're trying to tempt you to work for them it's going to be a nightmare once you're actually employed and they don't have to be nice any more.

[quote=konabunny said]call me thick but I still can't tell if OP is a contractor or an employee.
separately

You're thick 🙂

These are permie roles

call me thick but I still can't tell if OP is a contractor or an employee.

separately, I am surprised so many consultancies would charge their clients travel expenses for work within the UK.

As a freelancer I charge the client a day rate and that's it. I have different rates for local work so would factor in my costs when quoting but this is all arranged up front. There is no additional bill for expenses. The idea of staying in fancy hotels and eating steak is only for the travelling employees. All my costs come out of my pocket.

You're thick

These are permie roles

[quote=nickj]
These are permie rolesIf it is actually a permanent role then surely you'd be looking to relocate? Travelling would actually be commuting and that isn't normally paid for.

But it's project based consultancy. One project in Yorkshire, the next in Surrey etc. Not paying travel is crazy, I guessed this was an Indian outfit before the OP mentioned it.

Oh. So it is a permanent job of which part of the job would be travelling. In that case I would expect expenses. That said I can see what they are suggesting as a reasonable business model. When on expenses often people take the pee a bit. Pay a bit more and let people sort themselves out and the employee gets more cash in their pocket if they are willing to stay in a cheap hotel and not eat steak, employer saves a few quid.

[u][b]My experience is that if you're having to do this sort of negotiation before even accepting a job offer when they're trying to tempt you to work for them it's going to be a nightmare once you're actually employed and they don't have to be nice any more.[/b][/u]

just incase it wasnt clear.

If you havent already see if there are any employee reviews on glassdoor. I also agree with comments up there. If they think this is ok practise or they are messing you about its not a good sign for the future.

reasonable business model

I am surprised so many consultancies would charge their clients travel expenses for work within the UK.

They can save themselves that cost if they don't require me to work from their office. I'm happy to VPN in and dial in to meetings, etc but usually they want me around. And if they want me around, they cover the cost of me being there.

Interestingly, my colleagues in the US do a lot more customer work remotely. I guess as it's a big place travel is often too time-consuming as well as too expensive in a lot of cases.

We did have a customer who refused to pay expenses. They just got charged £150/day on top of the usual rate.

It's actually an American company but mostly people based in India - certainly in my area of work - it is the result of a takeover where the company bought was larger than the one that bought it.

Update this morning is that travel expenses will now be paid - but there seems to be disagreement about whether hotels/food are part of that! If I was to drive to my first project daily the mileage would be as much as the hotel costs with food - not that I would commute for 100+ miles. It is a struggle dealing with them and I put this down to ignorance of how things are in the UK. If I did join I would be having a discussion about what I think would need to change for them to grow here - they do have some more junior people who just rent where they work but it's the more experienced people they'd struggle to get.

As I haven't now got a job I am not losing anything by taking it - I could resign quickly enough. I have another offer of a job that I don't want but I may get another offer today from a good company who I like - feels like that one could involve tougher travel commitments but at least I'll get my costs covered without an argument! Just have to see what their offer is.

It is a struggle dealing with them and I put this down to ignorance of how things are in the UK.

I would walk away. Sounds like a complete pain.

The Company I work for is a UK section, of a US Company, which has a much larger US parent company. They have been in the UK for over 20 years and still don't understand the UK/EU. What it must of been like at the beginning doesn't bear thinking about.

Hang on you're a consultant, not an employee?

Dunno about ICT but in engineering they just get an hourly/daily rate. If a contractor's asked to work in another office/country they then get offered a new contract which may be worth more or include accomodation. I'd heard a few of them ask for the money rather than travel and accomodation as they want to keep things at arms length to avoid falling foul of IR35.

You can be a consultant and an employee. As in, he is looking to be employed by a firm of consultants to be hired out to other people.

[i]Hang on you're a consultant, not an employee? [/i]

He's an employee who does consulting...

Or a consultant who does employing....

Your confused of Cambridge.

Anyway, as soon as I'd heard the word India, I'd run a mile. I've never hated working with people as much as I have with Indian MNOs.

I'm not surprised if this is their first time recruiting experienced staff in UK/Europe, probably up to now it is just putting Indians in and IME (I've worked with all the big outsources) they'll put up with 5h1t as it's still better than been at home.

But, you must agree everything up front - also check holiday as I hadn't realised that the minimum is now 28 days (including BH's), until discussing it with a colleague last week.

https://www.gov.uk/holiday-entitlement-rights/entitlement

Yes I've been told 20 days hols, agent says that's becoming normal for IT - really?! Always had 25 but know some who get 23.

I had 20 days in my first job in the late 90s. Always 25 since then with BH on top.

😆 at 20 days "becoming normal for IT". Our minimum went up to 23 last year (plus BH - goes up with more service) because it was woefully uncompetitive.

So, no expenses, and 20 days holiday allowance.

Sounds like a dream job, can I have the recruiters number?

So, no expenses, and 20 days holiday allowance and Indian bosses

I'd run a mile...

Salary is pretty good though - and role interesting. Obviously wouldn't take without the expenses issue resolved to my liking.

For those who missed it first time...

[i]the minimum is now 28 days (including BH's)
[/i]

https://www.gov.uk/holiday-entitlement-rights/entitlement

If you are having these sort of misunderstandings and poor communication with them now and they are in sales mode, then I would look elsewhere.

OP, so IMO this is a company focused on cost control, trying to get away with the absolute minimum, lowest possible expenses, low holidays etc. I am sure the management are reading about how Europe is not doing well (so trying to bargain you down) plus with all the Indian employees this is about cost savings. Reading between the lines it also seems they want you and you are quite interested in the job. My 2p would be to ask for

Travel expenses inc hotel with a daily food allowance (or a higher salary to compensate, eating out often is expensive and not that healthy generally)
25 days holiday (this will sound like huge amount to an American not familiar with Europe FYI)
Ability to work from home 4 days a month, eg every Friday (that saves them money on travel and saves wear and tear on you)

It can only be a regret if I take it in place of something that could have been better so keeping my options open for now.

Got this back:

I have spoken to the business and we will go ahead with the reimbursement of Travel/Accommodation on actuals with the receipts of bills .

We had a phone call and HR person is expecting train receipts - I explained that it'll be cheaper and quicker by car, they don't seem able to deal with that.

I'm also told that they have a number of people who are joining on the same grade as me joinin on lower salaries and accepted that there are no expenses. It will be interesting to see what these people are like if I do join - best keep quiet my better deal!

"I'm also told that they have a number of people who are joining on the same grade as me joinin on lower salaries and accepted that there are no expenses. It will be interesting to see what these people are like if I do join"

id expect - desperate for work.

"I'm also told that they have a number of people who are joining on the same grade as me joinin on lower salaries and accepted that there are no expenses.

I'm also told that they have a number of people who are joining on the same grade as me joinin on lower salaries and accepted that there are no expenses

"I'm also told that they have a number of people who are joining on the same grade as me joinin on lower salaries and accepted that there are no expenses. It will be interesting to see what these people are like if I do join"

Default response to that : "That's nice"

It will be interesting to see [s]what these people are like[/s] [i]if these people actually exist[/i] if I do join

It will be interesting to see [s]what these people are like[/s] where these people pitch their tents when away from home on client sites

I am in the fortunate position of knowing a contractor on the project, he was positive about the when I asked him about the company/project before, will try to have another chat. I'm hoping I get a good offer from the other job I've been looking at but even that isn't ideal as it's focusing on one functional area whereas I'd rather stay more general.

Default response to that : "That's nice"

Mind you, they are going to think something is up when you get to book yourself into the Premier Inn, while they are sleeping on their cousin's floor after travelling up on Megabus when you go out to a client site together.

You could go for a per diem/overnight subsistence rate

Then stay at the cheapest places possible and pocket the difference into your new bike fund 8)

Just out of interest, which Indian outsourcer is this? Its not Wipro is it?

It's an American company who bought a large Indian one - don't want to say but maybe you can work it out.

OK I didn't get the other job (as I wasn't focused enough on the area they wanted me for!) so looks like I'll be taking this. Wish me luck...! 🙂

[i] I'd ask to be employed as a contractor so you can claim the tax back off your expenses[/i]

For the record, you can do this as a permanent employee (i.e. claim tax relief on business/work expenses), you don't need to be a contractor. Fill out a form, send it to HMRC, they'll amend your PAYE code.

But, that aside, from all I've read on this thread I'd avoid the role like the plague. 20 days hols is far from the norm, not paying travel expenses is bobbins, and if I was ever told "we have people who would do this for less", I'd let them.

EDIT - and having worked for three outsourcers; you are a profit generating number. The profit is the amount they can charge for you (read, how hard they can make you work) minus the amount they have to pay you. Obviously the incentive is to maximise the former and minimise the latter...

you are a profit generating number.

Well it looks like I'm getting expenses so I'll join then leave if it all goes wrong, salary does make up for lack of holidays.

Maybe they'll get rid of me anyway when they decide I'm too expensive!

I would like to highlight the most pertinent post on this thread.

My experience is that if you're having to do this sort of negotiation before even accepting a job offer when they're trying to tempt you to work for them it's going to be a nightmare once you're actually employed and they don't have to be nice any more.

Well I'd just leave.

Today's excitement is around what travel they'll reimburse - trains not mileage as they want receipts. Trying to explain that the train cost would be a lot more expensive and take longer for the project - Surrey to Cheltenham. Computer says no.

Walk away now.

Don't look back.

There's an expenses clerk at head office looking out the window and wondering how driving would be cheaper than rail travel.

[img] [/img]

Either hire you and pay your travel expenses or hire someone local to them who doesn't need to travel. That's how it works!

Sounds very much like Wipro to me. Thats one of the reasons why I refused to join them even though they kept on badgering me for over 18 months....

Glad that I did now though, joined another consultancy that has since been brought out by one of the big 4 but left them and am now working for an American company but entirely home based so no need to worry about expenses.

If I was the OP I would be walking away very very quickly.

Never heard of that in 8 years of perm and contract recruitment. Expenses are paid from door to door. Walk away.

Today's excitement is around what travel they'll reimburse - trains not mileage as they want receipts. Trying to explain that the train cost would be a lot more expensive and take longer for the project - Surrey to Cheltenham. Computer says no.

Then **** them.

If they're too ignorant to listen to you that's their lookout. At the risk of sounding like the apocryphal 'selfish arse' you don't owe them anything. They're paying you, screwing you on holidays, tried to screw you on expenses, presumably there are no other benefits attached so accept that you're just going to have to play them at their own game. I can think of worse things in the world than train travel.

Presumably they don't know anything about passenger charters either so travel time on delayed journeys can be claimed twice 😉

so looks like I'll be taking this. Wish me luck...!

Jesus H. Christ. I was wondering why this thread was still going, but to see that?! The mind boggles.

You ask for advice, get it, ignore it, get what you deserve.

I'd normally say whats the worst that could happen, a job is better than no job but in this case there is a good chance you could end up seriously out of pocket and basically losing money on a job you may quit in 2 months.

Well I started on Monday, currently all seems fine in theory around expenses and now told I can claim 45p/mile for my car. I can only claim £75 per night for a hotel outside London which isn't great but there's a decent per diem which could make up for that.

Much of the problems seem to be that I'm dealing with Indian people who don't know how things are done here - there are UK HR people so bit odd. Latest issues I'm trying to resolve are that I am unable to enter my bank details as they only have a subset of sort codes set up to validate against. Also trying to get my email name to be the name I'm known as rather than the one on my passport - computer says no so far.

Had to pay £25 for background check, wonder if they'll mind if I put that on expenses?!

Sweepstake how long OP lasts?

I'm going to say 17 weeks, when they ask him to work the third weekend for free in a row.

Seriously though, Good luck and well done with the new job, hope it all works out 🙂