[Closed] The Panama Papers.

Of course it a massive story - Dave is rich and wait for it he is the son of someone even richer who may have used some of his riches to provide for his family. SCANDAL.....RESIGN.....err, what for?

As Robert Shrimlsey neatly writes in the FT

Teams of investigative journalists who spent months ploughing through the millions of documents have now proved that the British PM's late father, Ian, ran an offshore investment fund that seemingly did nothing illegal. Even more serious is the revelation that his father had been doing nothing seemingly illegal without his son's involvement

😉

I think he has dodgy shares in Starbucks, given the amount of froth he has generated!!!

Grum - by voting against EU measures do you mean making it a requirement to disclose the beneficiaries of all trusts in some sort of register? That was what the government blocked, and on balance I agree with that decision. They didn't block a move to require disclosure of beneficial interests in companies, again a good decision IMHO.

Trusts are a special feature of Anglo Saxon jurisprudence and have many important functions that simetimes require anonymity of some sort. There's also the more practical issue that anyone can establish a trust arrangement making some sort of central repository a bit of a non starter. Anyway lots of info around on trusts for you to make up your own mind, my view is that the EU remedy was the wrong one (not to say there isn't a better one to come up with).

PS which government changed tax law to ensure that overseas shell companies holding property were liable for tax?

getting bad media advice isn't a crime,

I'm banning the word 'whataboutery'. It's too irritating.

which government changed tax law to ensure that overseas shell companies holding property were liable for tax?

Her Majesty's?

julians can you ban people doing it (all the time) first please?

Because the Prime Minister concealed it.

@tmh 😀

I see the frantic whatabouterry and straw man defences are out in force, keep clutching at those straws

I must excuse myself JY but all these attacks on Cameron are fantastic ahead of the Referendum, pure genius as far as I am concerned

jambalaya you are a logical fallacy spotting wet dream. It just makes 'debate' utterly pointless.

whatabouterry

You can't get round the ban by spelling it incorrectly

Her Majesty's?

Non dom numbers exploded under Labour at least the tories made token gesture by restricting (cough cough) them to 17 years of residency if continous. How about 5 and make that cumulative to avoid non-dons just spending a year abroad once in every 17.

Let's imagine for a moment that all of the following problems can be linked to offshore tax havens, most of which come under the jurisdiction of the British Crown

Illicit Arms Trafficking
ISIS/Daesh
The Refugee Crisis
Human Trafficking and organized Child Abuse
Environmental Catastrophe
Climate Change and the melting of the Polar Ice Caps

Worth having a go at making a positive change?

@grum feel free to ignore me, as I posted on another thread to Cougar I'd be glad for STW to have the type of forum software the other places I frequent use which has an Ignore function - feel free to support that and then use it. All I am doing is supporting current and past Labour government stances on these matters.

If Cameron Senior had his time again he could just gift Cameron Junior all his wealth 7+ years before his death. Of course none of that would make any difference to those attacking "rich boy" Cameron

Here are the fund details

http://www.trustnetoffshore.com/Factsheets/Factsheet.aspx?fundCode=NWBH&univ=DC

You need $100,000 minimum to invest but the good news is that it can be included in an ISA. I wonder if Jimmy Carr's scheme allowed that 🙂

Of course none of that would make any difference to those attacking "rich boy" Cameron

I know, those Eurosceptic Tories, 'kippers and media moguls would still be leading the charge, they really have no shame

Just look at the sort of malicious comments they make....

all these attacks on Cameron are fantastic ahead of the Referendum, pure genius as far as I am concerned

You'd think we had a secret police amonsgt us considering some of the comments on here...you know guys, you can criticise your leader. He won't come and get you for subservience...IMO he"s making you look foolish - defending him for what everyone knows has been unethical, deceptive and hypocritical Prime Ministerial behaviour....

If Cameron Senior had his time again he could just gift Cameron Junior all his wealth 7+ years before his death. Of course none of that would make any difference to those attacking "rich boy" Cameron

they could try back dating the "gift", I understand the Miliband brothers might be able to give him the benefit of their experience. If they are busy he could ask Hilary Benn

I understand the Miliband brothers might be able to give him the benefit of their experience. If they are busy he could ask Hilary Benn

might be an idea

they can probably answer more succinctly than saying

'no, but yeah, but, no, but yeah' for 5 days and making headlines like this........
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Also interesting:
The value of Cameron's joint holding in Blairmore went from £12,000 at cost to £31,500 in what, just over three years? really..? What was that invested in then...? certainly wasn't anything mainstream.

If the capital value of the shares rose so dramatically, what dividend was declared in the interim? Very little, I'd hazard, therefore there's relatively little to declare as 'income'. One of the best, simplest and most effective ways to avoid income tax is to convert your income into a capital gain and utilise the annual tax free allowance, entrepreneurs relief, retirement reliefs and lower rates of applicable tax as the Camerons did here.

The value of Cameron's joint holding in Blairmore went from £12,000 at cost to £31,500 in what, just over three years? really..? What was that invested in then...? certainly wasn't anything mainstream.

The dates are wrong he invested in 1997 which means he made a 7% capital return which was nothing special for the period.

OOh facebook going into meltdown over potential Cameron resignation. Will the british people do more than press 'like' and demonstrate like they did in Iceland though?

There was a lot of tutting, and a bit of head shaking.

I'm not angry. I'm just disappointed....

@kimbers: Bloody biased pro Tory press.

outofbreath - Member
@kimbers: Bloody biased pro [s]Tory [/s] brexit press.

at least corbs is good for something!

[img] ?w=620&q=55&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max&s=400a94652a0aa19ec6e5194c776dec8a[/img]

That's a very big 'oh dear' for Osborne. Especially since he's been very very quiet all week, hoping no-one would ask him any awkward questions about his own tax affairs. I suspect that he's got such a bad reputation for being a game-player that we realise his absence is a tactic... hence his polling is worse than Cameron who's deeply in the spotlight.

We do, however, need to re-direct the debate back to focus on the fact that tax-avoidance is causing a real problem to UK government and needs to be solved asap before NHS, social care, schools etc suffer too much from cuts and lack of funding (and housing because of the distortions from £170bn of foreign cash which UK wage earners simply can't compete with) - and the big question around both Cameron and GO is whether they have personal conflicts of interest in properly dealing with tax avoidance in order to fund our public services.
If they do have conflicts of interest then are they suitable to push for the required legislation?
This is more important IMO than the simple facts about whether they have offshore finances or not

The shadow chancellor must have scored a lot of "Who?" responses 🙂

It's interesting to me, the way leaders are deposed in the penultimate act before moving into opposition. Thatcher replaced by Major, Blair by Brown and now Dave by "The Next Fall Guy".

The push might be a bit earlier than expected! Although they don't seem to have old fashioned good grace anymore do they!

I don't think Cameron will be pushed out: who would want to take over a split Tory party 3 months before a dirty referendum? Far better to wait until after the referendum: even if the Leavers lose, the campaign will damage Cameron.

IF he leaves surely a pro EU candidate has to lead the govt given its stated position??? Any know for sure - Genuine question that.

I assume even the tories can see the cluster **** / omnishambles of a leadership election in the middle of an EU vote with a split party and will just sit and wait. He is going anyway and leading them now woudl be like herding cats for any candidate.

I don't think Cameron will be pushed out: who would want to take over a split Tory party 3 months before a dirty referendum? Far better to wait until after the referendum: even if the Leavers lose, the campaign will damage Cameron.

This. Everyone will want him to stay on until the referendum.

I'd have thought that he and his potential replacements would want him to stay on as long as possible afterwards too, accumulating all the blame for the inevitable difficult decisions and rendering his replacement as un-tarnished as possible right before the election.

Unless he loses the referendum in which case he'll have to go right away.

ZERO chance of a Cameron resignation, simply no need or grounds for one. EDIT plus the political pragmatics as above

All this is good for Corbyn though as no one is asking him about the Scottish elections, not yet anyway.

By the way there is no way the shares open market value (if such a thing even existed) is £30k as the annual income was £19k

Yes @big_n_daft nothing like backdating the will of a dead person is there ?

@mefty (from a while back) yup changubg tax treatment would be a significant piece of work but imho well worth it fir the billions and billions lost. My view current tax franework is simply "not fit for purpose"

Cameron will not be pushed out and he will not lose the referendum.

^ sadly this is probably correct - its going to be close though 😉

My view current tax franework is simply "not fit for purpose"

Absent international co-operation, there is nothing you can do without walking away from our existing treaties which would devast the economy, we would be removing ourselves from the world economy.

mefty - Member
Cameron will not be pushed out and he will not lose the referendum.

yeah he wont be pushed out, hes just made a huge PR balls up of this and his legacy will be that of 'Offshore Dave' henceforth

as for the referndum, who knows? piss up and brewery spring to mind, he doesnt even have Gordon Brown to save his bacon on this one!

Absent international co-operation, there is nothing you can do

That's my view.

So much of the 'rich person' tax avoidance (the kind the papers care about) boils down to 'living somewhere else', or 'having your company somewhere else'.

In the free world you can't stop people moving about and you can't stop firms headquartering somewhere with a competitive tax regime.

If there was a world government you could impose consistent tax everywhere and the problem goes away.

@mefty I think we can sort the EU stuff in very short order after a Brexit - truth is (imo) Germans/French etc would be very much on our side. Personally I think we should get on with it before the US takes all the money (even if politicians don't change the game activist investors will likely force Apple to repatriate, pay tax and then dividend out)

There is still something very odd about this story. It's essentially a non-story - so why (other than most people can't be bothered to understand/simply don't understand the issues) has it become one? Forget protecting his dad, why would Dave make such a clumsy hash of dealing with this?

Either he has suddenly become totally incompetent at PR or there is a little bit more behind this story. On balance, I am siding with the latter as there is not alternative reason why this has been blown up to this extent.

All pretty odd.

Thx for the R4 link

Mefty +1

well fonseca is only the 4th largest such company in the world, whats he got stashed in the others?

at least its distracted from the complete alienation the government have achieved with the staff of the NHS, the EU leaflet pigs ear, the U-turn on baseline tests for toddlers and their Tata steel failures

actually THM is possibly agreeing with JHJ there ^^^

There isn't any EU stuff of much significance.

Why would Germany, a huge exporter be in favour to transferring the majority of taxing rights to the country of sale thus depriving it of a substantial part of their tax base - what planet are you on?

Sam asked about a cake;
Cake is a private matter
I'm not aware of cake
I won't benefit from cake in future
OK I ate the cake

#resigncameron

😆

Either he has suddenly become totally incompetent at PR or there is a little bit more behind this story. On balance, I am siding with the latter as there is not alternative reason why this has been blown up to this extent.

I think you now have to view everything like this through the prism of the EU referendum/Civil war within the Tory party. Dave has never been popular within his own ranks. Now that both sides of the Tory party has declared war on each other, it appears anything is fair game.

We've got months of this to come yet. And its going to get dirtier and dirtier. Its not beyond the realms of possibility that the Tory Party may have imploded completely before we get to the 23rd June

It's funny isn't it, how when there is a continuous OTT character demolition of Jeremy Corbyn in the newspapers it's evidence of his poor judgement and he's brought it all on himself, but when Dave gets some stick for once it's a 'non-story' that's being unfairly hyped up by the irresponsible media.

It's funny isn't it, how when there is a continuous OTT character demolition of Jeremy Corbyn in the newspapers it's evidence of his poor judgement and he's brought it all on himself, but when Dave gets some stick for once it's a 'non-story' that's being unfairly hyped up by the irresponsible media.

You are not alone in your observation!

If you want to really understand US corporate tax avoidance there is a reasonable stab at it in the Economist this week. [url= http://www.economist.com/news/business/21696542-open-warfare-breaks-out-between-white-house-and-americas-tax-shy-multinationals-pfiasco ]Here[/url]

@grum well its one thing to declare your offshore income and pay tax on it and another to describe the IRA/Hezbolah/Hamas as your friends and the death of OBL as a tragedy

@mefty not so sure Germany would be a net loser tax wise, its pretty unlikely German companies aren't at it too (plenty of dealings with German co's wanting to do stuff offshore)!and tax evasion is a national pastime there, ceo Dresdner, Stefi Graf's "special deal" etc

jambalaya - Member
@grum well its one thing to declare your offshore income and pay tax on it and another to describe the IRA/Hezbolah/Hamas as your friends and the death of OBL as a tragedy

I think that jamba you don't understand it because he was caught telling porkies

Just like the one you (and Dave used) about Corbs saying bin Laden's death was a tragedy.

The problem is the more you get caught out bullshitting the less credible you seem

to describe the IRA/Hezbolah/Hamas as your friends and the death of OBL as a tragedy

The first one is arguably poor judgement the second one is a pathetic smear - because what he actually said is that it was a tragedy that he wasn't put on trial rather than being summarily executed. But of course you knew that.

grum well its one thing to declare your offshore income and pay tax on it

As you well know it's the part where he didn't tell the truth about it that he's getting into trouble for.

Ludicrous double standards and BS on display as usual.

What didn't he tell the truth about ? What he said was true he hadn't benefitted from the offshore trust whilst he was pm ? I've known he had such a trust from the time he was elected leader

Corbyn did what he did in inviting internationally recognised terrorists (and homophobes) to Westminster thus giving them credibility and publicity, he described them as friends. Anyway one in PM and the other won't last past Scottish elections (that being my prediction). If Cameron wins the refernedum he'll stay till 2019, if he loses I think he'll be gone but when - his chosen candidate is Osbourne but right now he wouldn't win a contest so some in the party will stall - a quick change means Boris

You're right, it wasn't a barefaced lie, like the one you just told about Corbs, Dave's was being economical with the truth, weasel words, politician speak, a non-denial denial, the sort of thing that people really dislike in a politician

politics of envy thats all this is .. camerons a well meaning bloke doing a job most of us could nt /would nt if i had his money it would be off shore as well.. its not illegal after all

'Politics of envy' - thanks, I'm assembling a STW BS-Bingo card and I'd forgotten about that one.

Its not a ****ing trust

not so sure Germany would be a net loser tax wise, its pretty unlikely German companies aren't at it too (plenty of dealings with German co's wanting to do stuff offshore)!and tax evasion is a national pastime there, ceo Dresdner, Stefi Graf's "special deal" etc

That's mainly evasion, the simple fact is if you allocate profit out of kilter with the economic reality, companies will just use independent sale companies and would avoid bringing themselves in the tax net at all.

Jamby I think i preferred it when you tried to shoehorn the EU into debates rather than attempted to defend Dave by spreading smears about other folk- the ones that even you know are distorted half truths at best.

Discuss the actual issue without the mud smearing shit throwing side show about Corbyn- it hasd no bearing whatsoever on the fact that Dave provided answer that were both true and misleading at the same time.
Clearly that is Corbyn and the Palestinians fault.

politics of envy thats all this is

camerons a well meaning bloke

Channel four news has unearthed more offshore funds held by daddy C

@JY as a good friend and colleague says "be careful what you ask for" 🙂

@kimbers yes I think he was a bit evasive but I genuinely don't understand the fuss as this a 8yr (?) old story

@binners Caneron senior was in the offshore funds business, it would make sense he had mkre than one. Cameron junior has already disclosed his income (inc to tax man) and said he won't benefit from any offshore trusts in the future ?

Ken Livingston PLC on CH4 news now chucking the mud, bit rich that 🙂

@JY as a good friend and colleague says "be careful what you ask for"

I agree we all know what his dad did and are not surprised by any of this but he kept it "secret".

However "the great unwashed" are surprised , annoyed and disappointed. Jamby the issue is that Dave was not open about it in the past or now

I wonder how many know GO is an heir or that he changed his name? I wonder how many know how many of the cabinet are millionaires or that give is Scottish and adopted or that IDS married a millionaire etc.

How many more are lurking out there in secret, in the tropical waters, like a giant great white shark waiting to surface and take down Offshore Dave?

Not sure if any of it adds additional credibility to this aspect, but hey, all good for bumping purposes yo

The Carroll Foundation Trust files are held within a complete lockdown at the FBI Washington DC field office and the Metropolitan Police Scotland Yard London under the supervision of the Commissioner Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe who has an intimate knowledge of this case which stretches the globe.

The BAE, HSBC and Al Yamamah aspects are certainly worth pursuing though, on many levels.

So much of the 'rich person' tax avoidance (the kind the papers care about) boils down to 'living somewhere else', or 'having your company somewhere else'.

Second, again, there is nothing wrong with people doing business abroad. Go west, young man - sell fridges to Eskimos or sand to Arabs if you're good at it. The thing that pisses everyone off is people doing business here and then sending the resulting revenue to spurious companies that do nothing substantive in jurisdictions where the business does nothing, purely for the purpose of dodging tax, avoiding disclosure or laundering the funds.

Yes @kona thats my point but its companies like Apple/Amazon/Google/Facebook who are doing that to the tune of many many billions - it makes the Cameron IHT planning or even Phillip Green/TopShop look absolutely miniscule. Focus on the big stuff, the stuff we can see in plain view

Yes but do we trust Dave to sort it?

Cameron to publish 6 years of tax returns - from when he was PM. Personally I think thats a mistake and a bad precident as its a private matter and in this country we have a problem with financially successful people, we'll just emd up with even more mediocrity than we have now

This article is oretty balanced, it also notes the substantial difference between Cameron paying full tax on £19k pa income and Jimmy Carr who paid 1% tax on £3.3m pa

[url= http://news.vice.com/article/did-david-cameron-do-anything-wrong-by-having-shares-in-an-offshore-fund ]Link[/url]

More mediocre than Dave?!?!

It is a good link, but iirc Carr backed out so ended up paying full tax?

Either way on the scale of tax avoidance Offshore Daves wasn't that much, its the double standards that's the problem and the way it had to be dragged out of him that makes you wonder what else he's not admitted.

Much more @kimbers - the cabinet and shadow cabinet are the stars below that it gets quite scary and local government is a shocker

@mefty I am only trying to point oit there are many people happy to be based in different locations for all sorts of reasons. I bet you Andy Murray is not tax resident in the UK, why would he chose to be "morals" or not

in this country we have a problem with financially successful people, we'll just emd up with even more mediocrity than we have now

Looking at Daves his wealth comes from his dad and his wife- none of his jobs really paid that well though he is not poor.

Either way the real issue is the say one thing - talks tough about tax transparency and stamping out tax havens - and doing another - using them, benefitting from them and stopping the EU regulating them. The issue is not really whether he paid tax- thats why he avoiding answering the question initially and prevaricated.

This may be unfair on him but at least get what the problem is as a number of folk have told you now.

Personally I think thats a mistake and a bad precident as its a private matter and in this country we have a problem with financially successful people, we'll just emd up with even more mediocrity than we have now

Is mediocrity a nurse that has to wipe arses and dress leg sores to keep someone alive, with no access to Panama accounts for their meagre pay?

People of privilage seem to have one rule, whilst everyone else has another. I keep hearing that Cameron has done mothing illegal. Neither has Google. It does not wash with me.

in this country we have a problem with financially successful people,

So sixteen pages in and lots of accusations made. But have we clarified if there has been any tax avoidance? Mefty provided a link that concluded NO very clearly. But the STW massive has not come up with evidence to suggest that this is wrong....c'mon lets get our acts together, this is serious.

Otherwise we still are in a situation where nothing dodgy happened and yet Dave behaved in a manner the suggests otherwise. Will the Sunday papers tell us more, or will people have to withdraw their accusations?

Problem with financiall successful people? Look around the country today - many thousands of people will willingly gather together spending their hard earned dosh to support a bunch of very financial successfully people who actively engage in "active management" of their financial affairs and play in a sport the is riddled with dodgy dealings - look at its most celebrated star of today. We seem very happy with their success and the means employed to achieve the ends.

So like Dave their seems to be a lot of guilt by association.

I bet you Andy Murray is not tax resident in the UK, why would he chose to be "morals" or not

He is - he lives in Cobham next to a friend of mine.

teamhurtmore - Member

There is no tax avoidance caus football

People of privilage seem to have one rule, whilst everyone else has another. I keep hearing that Cameron has done mothing illegal. Neither has Google. It does not wash with me.

Otherwise we still are in a situation where nothing dodgy happened and yet Dave behaved in a manner the suggests otherwise.

Regardless of the common knowledge that offshore accounts are often used to hide criminal and morally questionable activity, who makes the tax rules in the 1st place?

And how is it that the number of billionaires has increased since the financial crash, yet austerity continues as 'we're all in it together'?

@thm - I suggest 16 pages in and it demonstrates that some people are discussing the subject by reducing it to laws and numbers and others are discussing the subject by looking at the bigger picture and how it relates to overall societal values...neither side will ever agree.

@mefty owns a house yes but is he tax resident ? I don't know for certain but I am making a guess based on the ofher tennis players. I very much doubt he spends more than 90 days in UK so why be tax resident ?

Re above a nurse is doing a very valuable job, my reference was to those in Parliament. Our MPs are paid materially less than those in other countries (Merkel and Hollande are on double money Cameron is ?) we get what we pay for.

There are many ways to judge success but demonising people for having money or being financially successful is a Brttish disease imo

Shared values/tax - so Switzerland doesn't share our values, or Portugal where you can retire tax free for 10 years, or Luxembourg or Ireland (in the past writers and musicians where largely tax free) or even the US ?

@eden if I may say so I am doing both. The bigger picture is tax avoidance by companies incliding in relation to the internet business models.

Our MPs are paid materially less than those in other countries (Merkel and Hollande are on double money Cameron is ?) we get what we pay for.

🙁