Yep, I’m sure the audience all went to the pub afterwards and had a think about what they found funny about Jimmy’s jokes.
We all talking about it now aren't we?
It’s not a funny joke. It’s not meant to be a funny joke. It’s meant to make you think. Particularly if your instinct was to laugh or smirk. I don’t believe Carr is in the least bit racist. But I do believe he is wants to make people feel uncomfortable at their innate reaction. And think.
Nicely put.
First they came for Chubby Brown...
The difference between the 'showers' joke and the roma joke is the target of the comedy. the shower joke is about someone with all the luck in the world (the teenagers going on the school trip) but still not respecting boundaries - the roma joke was just a straight punch down because it's about a minority, it's the kind of joke that Bernard Manning and their ilk used to do (I'm old enough to remember Bernard and I'm glad he's not around anymore). I think he knew it wasn't ok but told it anyway and will deserve the criticism.
He’s told one before about a school mate getting caught masturbating in the showers on a school trip, with the punchline subsequently revealing that school trip was to Auschwitz.
That like a lot of JC's jokes, is about the story leading you to a different place than the actual punchline, it's funny because it flips the story to somewhere you weren't expecting.
This time the punchline failed to do that and the joke wasn't good, I also don't think it was some conscious effort to get people thinking about the subject matter.
He tries to push the limit on acceptable, and takes the piss of everyone including himself, I rather like his act. But sometimes he gets it wrong, I hope he accepts and acknowledges that rather than claiming he is a victim of cancel culture.
There is nothing worse than comedians whining about cancel culture, blubbing how unfair it is that people don't like their jokes, they are worse than Hitler.
Baddiel’s fake statistics
The same Baddiel who had a long standing Joke about a coloured footballer at the start of his career?
As the Holocaust victim said to God on getting to heaven "you had to be there"
it’s the kind of joke that Bernard Manning
It really wasn’t.
"It’s not meant to be a funny joke. It’s meant to make you think."
My issue is that it won't work for morons, they will just have a laugh thinking it's ok because carr told it.
There is nothing worse than comedians whining about cancel culture, blubbing how unfair it is that people don’t like their jokes, they are worse than Hitler.
Agree - but JC hasn't done any of this, quite the opposite really.
Im not a big fan of JC. Trying to shock for the sake of it, without any real intelligence, but just my Opinion (and I have no problem with the most offensive jokes)
I watched most of that show and found it pretty poor. The Holocaust joke was for me making a point of people’s covert racism towards travellers(see channel 5 most nights), and bringing it out into the open…
My issue is that it won’t work for morons, they will just have a laugh thinking it’s ok because carr told it.
So we all pander to the lowest common denominator?
MSP
That like a lot of JC’s jokes, is about the story leading you to a different place than the actual punchline, it’s funny because it flips the story to somewhere you weren’t expecting.
This time the punchline failed to do that and the joke wasn’t good, I also don’t think it was some conscious effort to get people thinking about the subject matter.
It did exactly that, it starts off like a typical statement about how terrible the holocaust was, then flips it to something unexpected.
Had that ‘joke’ been made about any other ethnicity or disadvantaged group murdered in the holocaust there wouldn’t be any discussion that it was off limits……So it must be off-limits for Romani and Sinti too – mustn’t it?
though i don’t disagree with what you are saying, i think the point of the joke is that no one would have laughed if it had been about the disabled. make the joke about a group that people don’t like and those people will laugh.
assuming that it was ironic and intended to hold a mirror up to the audience then it is possibly valid as art or similar. the problem with ironic comedy is that the irony is often lost on the wider audience.
Nice to see a relatively balanced discussion about this, compared to what Twitter usually descends into whenever I've seen Carr-based 'discussions' recently...
I'm struggling personally (and I think that's probably a good thing and part of what the joke was targetting based on having seen him live a few times in the past and he talks about what jokes are and what they're for a fair bit IME). My gut reaction was to think 'he's overstepped the line there and maybe he's not who I thought he was', but the more I think about it I tend to agree with TIRed's viewpoint that the target of the joke is not the Roma community but those people who find the joke funny on a surface level.
I like the jester/fool analogy made in the thread already. Sometimes comedy is just about having a silly, childish laugh, sometimes it's about uncomfortably prodding your worldview.
I don't currently believe Carr to be a racist, but I do still find the potential impact on the Roma community in the real world from the actual targets of the joke a bit worrying...
Yep, I’m sure the audience all went to the pub afterwards and had a think about what they found funny about Jimmy’s jokes.
It's only Stewart Lee fans that do that.
Why would Stewart Lee fans be talking about Jimmy Carr's jokes?
It’s only Stewart Lee fans that do that.
I hope they don’t mention they’re English.
I tend to agree with TIRed’s viewpoint that the target of the joke is not the Roma community but those people who find the joke funny on a surface level.
I think there's a risk of giving him more credit than he deserves. This looks to me like Carr creating some cover for him to tell the kind of crass, stupid jokes he's always indulged in. A better comedian could've done something far more interesting with the material.
Not that I'm arguing for him to be banned. Though it would be good if he paid his taxes.
Not saying he did it well, probably the opposite TBH.
Just don't get from his previous work that he's racist. In this case it feels more thoughtless than deliberate. Sadly the effect is the same...
Agree that other comedians work through this stuff better. I know he's marmite but for me Ricky Gervais' standup works through the idea of offensiveness brilliantly and hilariously at times.
My friends call me a sheep shagger any time I mention rugby, is that ok? probably not, I'm supposed to just accept it.
Much like I accept Jimmy cars jokes, I do feel he's too purile and basic with his humour, I suppose you could say the same about Frakie Boyle, but I feel he's a bit more sophisticated and nuanced in his humour.
'whataboutery' was mentioned earlier in the thread, and that's kind of a good point, where can you draw the line with dark jokes?
Of course we all have 'in jokes' with our friends etc, that could be seen very dimly from an outsiders point of view.
If you're a comic saying the same stuff to a much larger audience, it shifts the paradigm somewhat.
Chubby brown for example, for me I just don't find him either funny or offensive, just a bit cringy and embaracing.
Jimmy Carr tells typical Jimmy Carr joke. The “joke” comes at the end of a show about dark, offensive subjects. There’s plenty of other jokes in his shows that are undoubtedly offensive to someone. This just happens to be, IMHO, the latest in artist trying to drum up some publicity / notoriety.
Jim Jeffries, he of the offensive misogynistic jokes, did a segment about being in trouble for jokes he did years ago and how they’re not funny anymore. To paraphrase “Why did you tell that joke? It’s not funny” “Well, I thought it was funny, I wanted it to work, but now you’re all angry with me” “It’s called gambling, sometimes you lose, that’s why it’s called gambling”
Frankie Boyle I’m sure has said much ‘worse’
I might be wrong here but sure I've read that Frankie Boyle used to write jokes for Jimmy Carr
Plenty of Priest/Altar boy jokes about. Would People laugh at those ?, very likely.
So are they condoning child sex abuse ?. No of course not.
Comedian Fatiha El Ghorri on forced marriage jokes. Are the audience condoning forced marriage ?, No of course not.
Paul Chowdhry terrorism jokes. Are the audience condoning terrorism ?
If anything it is social commentary on the darker side of human nature.
I honestly find Al Murray more offensive with his jingoistic war obsessed act. Not sure if all of his fans know it's piss take.
Boyle and Carr are known for telling edgy jokes and as such their audiences know what to expect,even more so with Carr's intro.
Jimmy Carr has always been controversial, not due to naturally being like that, but due to being quite an intelligent comedian who checks the surroundings and what is happening before doing a routine with new 'edgy' stuff. It's not an off the cuff remark, it's part of a routine he's worked on for a while, he's usually very good at this, watching what others are doing, seeing how they are getting on and reworking stuff to suit.
He's also been mainstream for a long time, that's the difference between him and Frankie Boyle, Carr stays on the right side of political/edgy jokes to not get binned by BBC/C4/etc, Boyle prefers to push the boundary and put noses out of joint.
As for Royston Vassey, he's actually meant to be a pretty sound guy, but he's an old style comedian who has racism/sexism/etc engrained in him due to growing up in those surroundings, hence why he's always gone down well with the boomers and so on.
A better comedian could’ve done something far more interesting with the material.
He's no Johnny Speight, is he?
Alf Garnett was obviously a satirical portrayal, but people still laughed with him rather than at him.
In this case, my most generous interpretation is that Carr seems to have been too clever for his own good.
A less generous view is that he's happy to appeal to both those who get the irony of the joke and those who take it at face value.
I think a little clarification from the man himself would help.
I don't think any clarification is needed, comedians say some savage stuff sometimes, Jimmy Car is no different.
If he's that bad he won't get top money gigs any more, and may have to adjust his narrative.
He got busted for offshoring his income and not paying any tax, he was repeatedly roasted about it and was still funny about it.
Don't like him? don't watch him.
This is just what he does and has done throughout his stand up career. I’m not a big fan so don’t watch him but unlike a lot of others I’m not going to take offence at something I haven’t seen and heard about weeks later on Twitter.
I don’t find the joke remotely funny but wouldn’t expect him to apologise for it or try and stop him from performing. I find the idea of both quite disturbing.
I honestly find Al Murray more offensive with his jingoistic war obsessed act.
You can get away with a lot by actually being funny. That's where Al Murray falls down as does this Jimmy Carr joke.
I think a little clarification from the man himself would help.
He made it clear at the start if the show, before the joke and after.
I'm just watching it now.. It's typical Jimmy Carr so I'm not exactly sure what all the fuss is about.
I giggled a few times and I've not even got to the gypsie bit yet!
Part of a Luton Travellers association statement (my bold):
"We appreciate that comedy is subjective but in our view when punchlines are indistinguishable from the genuinely-held views of fascists and Neo-Nazis, a line has very clearly been crossed. Ethnic Gypsies, Roma, and Travellers experience sustained and widespread discrimination in contemporary society – with recent polling indicating as many as 50% of people hold negative opinions of them and material like this normalises further discrimination, and even violence, against already marginalised communities."
I’m just watching it now.. It’s typical Jimmy Carr so I’m not exactly sure what all the fuss is about.
I giggled a few times and I’ve not even got to the gypsie bit yet!
The fuss is about the bit you haven't seen yet, obviously. I quite like Jimmy generally and chuckled at parts but it's not his best show all round really. Probs needed the controversial joke to drum up interest in it, sadly.
He chose his subject matter well, he is obviously well aware of the widespread hatred of gypsies, he could have made exactly the same joke using the word homosexuals instead of gypsies but that would in all likelihood have offended a lot more people. Although it wouldn't have been any less "funny".
Your mother's fine china... I did laugh at that one... Hehehe
And the sentiment would be the same, it’s ok not to mention them as no one cares. The context is key.
He chose his subject matter well, he is obviously well aware of the widespread hatred of gypsies, he could have made exactly the same joke using the word homosexuals instead of gypsies but that would in all likelihood have offended a lot more people. Although it wouldn’t have been any less “funny”.
Disagree. The whole point is that it's highlighting the hypocrisy of a large chunk of the populace who wouldn't dream about admonishing Jews, or gay people (as a group) but might think nothing of moaning about gypsies. The joke works because it's playing us off against our own predjudices.
Whilst homophobia is still rife, I'd argue that it's small pockets of vocal (and sometimes violent) tossbags, whereas anti-gypsy sentiment is far more widespread (but perhaps more low-key). To put it another way, I doubt there are many gypsies getting their heads kicked in just for being that particular race, whereas there might be a lot of middle-class people who would be upset if a family of gypsies moved in next-door.
That's just my experience, perhaps yours is different.
The joke works because it’s playing us off against our own predjudices.
Perhaps that's why the joke didn't work on me. I did wonder why I failed to find it even remotely funny.
I think he’s a tedious blokey ****, his joke is offensive and it would probably be better if we all ignored him. He probably thought he’d make cash to avoid paying tax on out of all the fuss somehow.
Perhaps that’s why the joke didn’t work on me. I did wonder why I failed to find it even remotely funny.
You’re amazing. I bet you’ve never even noticed skin colour, right? 😉
Just type “gypsy site:singletrackworld.com” into your favourite search engine and see what the sentiment is in this haven for liberal snowflakes.
He can afford to pack it in now, I’m sure.
Would imagine so, especially with his creative tax dodging...
Just type “gypsy site:singletrackworld.com” into your favourite search engine and see what the sentiment is in this haven for liberal snowflakes.
I did precisely that yesterday, there is a thread which was closed down by the mods. For obvious reasons it is very short.
What's your point, that anti-gypsy sentiments are widespread? I already knew that thanks.
And I agree with your point that had he used the word homosexual instead of gypsy he would have got less laughs. And obviously offended more people. Homophobia isn't so fashionable these days.
What’s your point, that anti-gypsy sentiments are widespread?
Yeah, pretty much. That's why the joke hits hard, and why it makes us feel uncomfortable.
And I agree with your point that had he used the word homosexual instead of gypsy he would have got less laughs.
I didn't say that. It's not as simple as fewer people laughing because fewer people are homophobic. If he said the exact same joke but the punchline was homosexuals not gypsies, then it's a totally different type of joke, because of the prevailing sentiment in the audience/wider world IMHO. And that's pretty disgraceful. He's riffing off the social acceptability of anti-gypsy sentiment.
Even if the joke is in bad taste (and it obviously is), Carr isn't the problem here.
I would take a guess that worldwide more people are homophobic than gypsyphobic
Worldwide? I expect that is true. But in Europe (including here, but arguable more so as you head east) the level of hatred against the GRT community, discrimination against them, and scapegoating of them, shouldn’t be underestimated.
I feel like gypsophobia is the last taboo. Or rather, the last thing that's not taboo to discuss in polite British society. Maybe that's just a reflection of me.
He's in the same boat as the Auschwitz visitors who were recently fined for performing a Nazi salute for a selfie....the problem is he is normalising this behaviour as he is a public figure.
Interesting where we choose to draw the line.
Watching two other things ATM - After Life and This Is Going To Hurt.
One episode of After Life (3 I think from series 3) has a character riffing on Gypsy stereotypes. Same subject and target (our prejudices) as Carr, but no huge furor as far as I'm aware. Maybe the combination with The Holocaust is the tipping point?
Watching the new Ben Whishaw thing last night - a throwaway line about it being OK for a character to want to fire bomb a Mosque. Not as obviously offensive but heading for the same target.
Not seen the Jimmy Carr thing. Although he never struck me as being stupid enough to drop himself in it without context.
Humour around racial issues can be done. Very NSFW though.....
That’s why the joke hits hard, and why it makes us feel uncomfortable.
I'm not sure why you think everyone shares the same attitude to the joke as you. It doesn't make me feel uncomfortable anymore than Jim Davidson's Chalky makes me feel uncomfortable.
Why should I feel uncomfortable about other people's racism?
mattyfez
Much like I accept Jimmy cars jokes, I do feel he’s too purile and basic with his humour, I suppose you could say the same about Frakie Boyle, but I feel he’s a bit more sophisticated and nuanced in his humour.
yeah the down syndrome material was pretty sophisticated and nuanced
That Clerks 2 scene was ****ing hysterical when I first saw it.
Watched it again recently and was surprised that it held up well in our more "woke" times.
Much like I accept Jimmy cars jokes, I do feel he’s too purile and basic with his humour, I suppose you could say the same about Frakie Boyle, but I feel he’s a bit more sophisticated and nuanced in his humour.
Yeah. It would obviously be better if all comedians did the same material.
During the Cleveland child abuse scandal, Roy Chubby Brown went on stage in Middlesbrough and opened with the line, "My there's a big crowd in tonight... I thought you'd all be at home f***ing your kids."
That's ^^ obviously designed to be shocking and some would consider very offensive.
I fail however to see any connection with Jimmy Carr's comment about gypsies. The issue some people have with Carr's comment isn't that it was shocking and offensive but that it could be seen as legitimising, or even inciting, hatred against a racial group.
The Roy Chubby Brown comment doesn't appear to be legitimising or inciting hatred against any minority group.
^^^and RCB said that to get an edgy laugh. Same as Manning to a Bradford audience (something about bbqs) after the stadium fire. Comedians risking getting stuff chucked at them for the sake of a laugh (and to be fair I think Manning had to leave the stage and never performed in Bradford again).
Anyway, they were doing it - prodding the hurty bit - to get a big laugh and full stop. Not to educate, teach anyone anything or to stimulate thought let along healing catharsis.
And that's all Carr was doing, heavily billed - getting a laugh and some attention though less, I have to say, bravely with his friendly audience but in this case with a racist joke.
No one wants to be thought of as a racist. Carr gets the audience laughing at a racist joke and they're all a bit pleasantly épated by this. Big laugh, comedian's job done. There's no serious purpose to this or anything positive achieved other than a bit of a laugh at a racist joke (which yes works on reversal of expectations as do many jokes, including racist jokes like the Manning chat show one I referenced earlier in the thread).
Related point: some racist jokes are effective - meaning funny - based on how they work, how well they're told etc. Some get converted to tellable by striking out racist term and inserting "lawyer" or whatever instead. I think I prefer that to successful comedians going back to telling racist jokes.
Anyway, on the basis of this thread the netflix thing has gone from something I thought i might possibly get round to watching a bit of, to something I probably won't.
I didn’t want to start another racism thread, but just noticed this on our favourite/least favourite car leasing website. Jeez
[img] 
[/img]
During the Cleveland child abuse scandal, Roy Chubby Brown went on stage in Middlesbrough and opened with the line, “My there’s a big crowd in tonight… I thought you’d all be at home f***ing your kids.”
Well I laughed…
Right comrades, off to re-education camp with me ⛺️
Jokes are not a laughing matter!
Right comrades, off to re-education camp with me
Is that a reference to the well-known fact that lefties have no sense of humour?
Yes
Ah, excellent quip. I'm glad I got the joke. Btw why is it that left-wing comedians are rarer than hen's teeth - any ideas?
Ah, excellent quip. I’m glad I got the joke. Btw why is it that left-wing comedians are rarer than hen’s teeth – any ideas?
That’s irony, right?
That’s irony, right?
I've no idea.....is irony the same as pisstake?
When is all this virtue signalling woke bs gonna die down, its becoming pathetic, its just a joke acknowledging everyone's disdain for gypsies, be it Romany or Irish, let's be honest, nobody wants them pitching up in their neighbourhood, that's why it's funny, the fact that the media is asking people like David baddiel for comment I find more ignorant, it wasn't a joke aimed at Jews, just because the holocaust was involved in the build up the cancel culture obsessed media lose all rationality. If you look for it you'll find hundreds of gags from hundreds of comics about gypsies and probably a lot more offensive and not as funny.
I thought it was a funny joke, but then I felt a little uncomfortable. I think that's the point.
Let's face it, none of us would welcome travellers turning up at our local park or green space, yet many of us hate the idea of being prejudiced against anyone (including travellers). The joke works on that cognitive dissonance.
It was a piss poor, trite, formulaic gag - "always an upside", "see the positives" etc., etc.
If that's the quality he's shifting after lock down it's pretty obvious he must have discovered gardening or some such.
If he wanted to attempt to make it edgy (Jimmy Carr, edgy? My rounded arse) he would have cracked it, then skewered the audience for laughing. But like Bernard and Jim he knows better than to bite the hand that feeds.
I wonder if Jimmy Carr would deem it his place to tell you how to do your job...
If my job was to stand in front of Jimmy Carr and talk to him then yes, I'm sure he would deem it his place to tell me how to do my job.
If he wanted to attempt to make it edgy (Jimmy Carr, edgy? My rounded arse) he would have cracked it, then skewered the audience for laughing.
That makes no sense.
That makes no sense.
I probably would have been better replacing "for laughing" with "after laughing".
Challenged them to the point of being uncomfortable on why they found it funny, challenged prejudices (obviously, not all of the auidience fit this cohort), pushed on why some circumstances can enable expression of points of view that are based on prejudice - traded that off against the right of expression and the negative aspects of repression of personal experience and belief.
He pitches himself as something more than a circuit comic - JC "This is going to be educational and informative...", but he's not (in my view).
I now recall (I genuinely had forgot) I have seen him in concert and it was a mechanical repeating of anecdotes and gags - not bad, but formulaic.
Still makes no sense.
When is all this virtue signalling woke bs gonna die down
Do leave off. If you think that Carr should be able to say what he wants, then that cuts both ways. Unless you think people who disagree with him should be cancelled?
[i]Still makes no sense.[/i]
If my job was to stand in front of Jimmy Carr and talk to him then yes, I’m sure he would deem it his place to tell me how to do my job
Neither does that.
Neither does that.
To be fair, I was working with a fairly nonsensical statement to begin with.
Don't worry, I'm sure Stewart Lee's new show will explain it all and end this circle of hell we've fallen into where we're just making clever statements at each other and no one has a clue what anyone else is saying.
I thought it was a funny joke.
I'm a JC fan too.
It does make me feel uncomfortable though as, same as above, I hate the idea of being prejudiced against anyone.
But every time I walk down the hill, I look up at my neighbours' rooves. One neighbour had a roofing company run by travellers do some work. Had to have some of it done again. The new company found they had stuck the slates on with silicone.
The other one had work done to the chimney. They wrapped a piece of black sheeting round it. Did nothing to solve the problem. But he paid in cash and never saw them again.
Mind you, I had my roof done by a long established company in the area. And they've pretty much destroyed it.
And then there's my former tenants who hail from India. They're worse than Boris Johnson for lying. A quick check on the internet shows you why. If you tell the truth and that turns out to disadvantage you, then more fool you, seems to be the attitude in much of Indian society. Nice.
Neither does that
Yes it does. He makes a living through performing to the public.
To be fair, I was working with a fairly nonsensical statement to begin with.
Apologies if it was to complex for you.
Still makes no sense.
The gag itself is fits a simple "formula" or construction, e.g:
The IRA have committed many bombing atrocities.
... But the improvements to Brighton's sea front weren't all that bad!
etc.
From a circuit comic, particularly of the "old school", it's a meat and two veg gag.
Carr has pitched/referred to this particular gag as being "educational" and "edgy" (not sure if "edgy" was directly attributed to this gag, tour or his professional persona in general, or a combo).
In my view it was not edgy or educational. For me was a simple, gag that wasn't funny. Actually I'll go further: it was bloody telegraphed - as soon as he delivered the opening line the punch was f-in obvious and inevitable. It was just plain weak. Other views are available.
To shift it to something "better"/more interesting he could have followed it with barbed but amusing questions and comments directed at the auidience about why they found it funny, etc. etc.
This does not seem to be in his toolkit - he does a good impression of engaging and to-and-froing with the audience but it's more contrived and managed than genuine "free styling".
Apologies if it was to complex for you.
Yes, I'm sure, as far as you're concerned, what you wrote sounds like the pinnacle of intellectual arguments.
Let’s face it, none of us would welcome travellers turning up at our local park or green space
The Roma/Sinti genocide had nothing to do with them turning up at local parks. It was justified on the grounds that they were classed as sub-human.
IMO there is nothing wrong with tasteless jokes surrounding the holocaust, if that's what the audience wants. Legitimising hatred against a racial minority however is clearly not the same thing as a tasteless joke. It is also, for very good reasons, illegal.
