[Closed] Jimmy Carr and Tax

Tax avoidance if it's a Lefty (Livingstone, Carr, Milliband, Guardian et al) = Fine

Tax avoidance = bad
Tax avoidance by people who bleat about how wrong tax avoidance is (eg Livingstone, Carr, Guardian, Milliband) = bad and hypocritical

Pretty simple really. At least the Tories don't tend to make any secret of what selfish arseholes they are I suppose. 😉

Good on Jimmy Carr .The whole idea of employing accountants is to avoid paying as much tax as possible .I only wish mine was as efficient

Tax avoidance by people who bleat about how wrong tax avoidance is (eg Livingstone, [b]Carr[/b], Guardian, Milliband) = bad and hypocritical

For the record I think legal tax avoidance is fine, whoever does it, even I do it. However I don't think opposition to plugging unacceptable loopholes is fine.

So when you accused me of sticking up for tax avoiders, was that a compliment? In light of the above, I presume it was, so please excuse my tardiness in thanking you.

I assume all those happy at dodging their responsibilities by avoiding paying tax also advocate maximising loopholes in the benefit system to claim as much as possible, for the least expenditure of effort?

So when you accused me of sticking up for tax avoiders, was that a compliment?

If that's what I did then yes, take it as a compliment. Although I can't recall the occasion - it's obliviously been playing on your mind for a while.

I have no problem at all with anyone minimising their tax liabilities through legal methods. And I have never criticised anyone for doing so. I do have a problem though with huge loopholes which allow some very wealthy people to avoid paying tax. Most people agree that these loopholes should be closed.

Whilst they exist and are perfectly legal I see absolutely no reason why they should remain the preserve of Tory Party members, as some people bizarrely seem to believe.

why do we need to close them if you dont have a problem with legally minimising tax ?
It seems you do have a problem with legally minimising tax or you would not feel the need to act to stop people doing it.

I also think it is fair to say if you make an issue of tax avoidance [ not saying JC has but say Ken] and you then do it you do look worse than someone who does not make an issue of it and does it for obvious reasons.

why do we need to close them if you dont have a problem with legally minimising tax ?

😕 For the same reason most people have a problem with some of the loopholes.........they are impossible to justify keeping.

I fully expect people to legally minimising their tax liabilities though. Why wouldn't they and why shouldn't they ?

You did, one of the fortunate things of not being a prolific poster, I have a reasonable recollection (and in comparison with Leveson enquiry witnesses, an exceptional one) of my posting history. But it would be remiss of me not to reassure it has not been weighing on my mind, I am rather pleased to find something further than we agree on, like yourself I am a big fan of the red white and blue...TESCO. You will no doubt be able to find it because I also recall you are a dab hand with the search function.

I fully expect people to legally minimising their tax liabilities though. Why wouldn't they and why shouldn't they ?

they are impossible to justify

Strange that call me Dave launches a media campaign/indignant rant naming well known personalities round about the same time even more questions are being asked about the co-chair of the Tory party.. Coincidence?? Surely not!
Didn't something similar happen round about the time someone in the tory party resigned after some sort of cash for access scandal a wee while ago??
Also thought it strange that he's ranting about media types like JC he had no comment when it was put to him that his good chum and Tory campaigner Gary Barlow was doing exactly the same thing as JC..
Hmm..Hopefully this will backfire on him big-time, although I for one am not againt closing tax loopholes.

Sorry for non specifics but I'm sure you get the gist of what I mean!

Of course it's perfectly possible to justify Junkyard - it's legal ! 🙂

Make legal tax loopholes illegal and they immediately become no longer justified.

What isn't justified at the present moment, is arguing that loopholes such as the following should remain legal.

1 A mobile phone company that has paid no corporation tax for three years has become the Conservatives' most generous corporate donor after giving more than £300,000 over the last nine months.

Lycamobile, an £88m company based in Canary Wharf, gave more than £130,000 between January and March this year, the latest Electoral Commission records show. The company says it has paid all tax owing and has re-invested its profits.

2 Lord Ashcroft, the Tories' former treasurer who has given more than £10m to the party, revealed in 2010 that he was "non-domiciled", meaning he did not pay UK tax on earnings made outside Britain. When he was made a peer in 2001, at the behest of the then Tory leader William Hague, he gave assurances that he would take up permanent residence in the UK. Ashcroft insists that he has behaved properly and has paid all taxes due.

3 Sir Philip Green, the Topshop billionaire who was appointed as a government adviser in 2010, has been accused of avoiding a personal tax bill of £300m. Green's family banked one of the biggest pay cheques in corporate history in 2005 when his Arcadia fashion business, which owns Topshop, paid a £1.2bn dividend. The record-breaking payment was made to his wife, Tina, who lives in Monaco and is the direct owner of Arcadia. As a result, no UK income tax was due. He says criticism of this is outrageous and says he has paid "tens of millions" in tax to Britain.

4 An unnamed Tory donor avoided tax by flying outside UK airspace on his private jet at night, a lobbyist claimed in April. The millionaire is said to have routinely flown out of Luton airport in the evening so he could sleep on his jet.

Because he was outside British jurisdiction at night, this allowed him to extend the number of days he could stay in the UK without paying tax. As a non-resident, he could spend just 91 full days in the country each year. The arrangement was revealed to undercover reporters by Sarah Southern, the lobbyist at the centre of the recent cash-for-Cameron scandal.

they are impossible to justify

it's perfectly possible to justify Junkyard - it's legal

What isn't justified at the present moment, is arguing that loopholes such as the following should remain legal.

That is a pretty clear and consistent view you have there ernie.

That is a pretty clear and consistent view you have there ernie.

Despite your sarcasm, it's perfectly clear and consistent. You choose not to see it as such because you obviously don't agree with my point of view.

You chopped my quote so not to include the word "keeping". It is very clear that I am saying there is no justification imo for keeping the present legal tax loopholes which provide no benefit other than as means of avoiding tax. However as these loopholes exist I see no reason why anyone would not use them.

All pretty straight forward easy to understand stuff. Although I do appreciate that it might upset the sensitivities of moralising petty bourgeois lefties who get worked up and anal over such matters.

So people earning under 18k can't marry someone from abroad even if they have never used any welfare benefits, because they are not a net tax contributor? Yet these people are allowed to do so.

We need to murder the rich in their sleep.

We need to murder the rich in their sleep.

I quite like rich people but I couldn't eat a whole one.. they play havoc with my gout..

didnt cameroon come in with a pledge to shut down uk tax havens and pursue a similar international agenda?

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/9218119/David-Camerons-inherited-family-wealth-based-in-foreign-tax-havens.html ]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/9218119/David-Camerons-inherited-family-wealth-based-in-foreign-tax-havens.html[/url]

[quote=allthepies said] Leftytrackworld seem OK with aggressive tax avoidance schemes, what a turn up!

[quote=ernie said] What do you base that on ?

I can't see any evidence to back up that claim.

[quote=ernie said] However as these loopholes exist I see no reason why anyone would not use them.

Hmmmmmmm...

bike to work scheme and childcare voucher scheme are both legal tax avoidance schemes. hands up if you do or have utilised them. i know i have/do.

Can't say I blame the rich for looking at ways to reduce their standard tax burden under the current system. Going by the BBC report, paying £127k tax on £280k earnings is crazy however using the loan scheme to only end up paying £3.5k is going way too far in the other direction.
They also need to look at retroactive measures to, if a scheme is legal at the time and you save £200k over a couple of years before the scheme is then judged to be illegal (after being tested in court) then if the tax man can get the £200k back as well and not just close down the scheme then surely it would be a much bigger deterrent for people wanting to push the edges of what's legitimate.

Anyway, his twitter feed this morning:

I appreciate as a comedian, people will expect me to ‘make light’ of this situation, but I’m not going to in this statement as this is obviously a serious matter. I met with a financial advisor and he said to me “Do you want to pay less tax? It’s totally legal.” I said “Yes.” I now realise I’ve made a terrible error of judgement. Although I’ve been advised the K2 Tax scheme is entirely legal, and has been fully disclosed to HMRC (Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs), I’m no longer involved in it and will in future conduct my financial affairs much more responsibly.

Apologies to everyone.

Jimmy Carr

That is a pretty clear and consistent view you have there ernie.

Tax avoidance by people who bleat about how wrong tax avoidance is (eg Livingstone, Carr, Guardian, Milliband) = bad and hypocritical

Is this the same Miliband who said last night that rather than wringing his hands and blustering about morality, Cameron should either shut up or change the law?

Didn't sound like bleating to me. And, after all, Cameron's the Prime Minister; he actually has the power to do something about this, unlike Sixth-form politician Ed. The TV interviews yesterday were genuinely bizarre, watching the Tory bleating like an old-school Labour stalinista, and Dull Ed sounding (for the first time ever) like he had some gravitas.

For the record, I have no problem with Carr using every available opportunity to minimise his tax; I do the same wherever possible. I can't think of a sane person who'd give the Chancellor more than they absolutely had to.

Pretty lame to pull out of it.

The whole thing just makes Cameron and govt look poor imo

[quote=toppers3933 said]bike to work scheme and childcare voucher scheme are both legal tax avoidance schemes. hands up if you do or have utilised them. i know i have/do.

Both of which are schemes sanctioned by the government and indeed introduced by the government. On the other hand, paying yourself a "salary" of about £5K/year and then receiving hundreds of thousands of pounds via a "loan" from an offshore company on which you pay no tax might still be legal but certainly wasn't introduced by a government as a means for individuals to get paid.

so from what i can make out, jimmy carr is guilty of mild hypocrisy whilst acting completely legally to avoid paying what in the general scheme of things amounts to a few quid.

meanwhile, multi millionaires/billionaires employ similar strategies to avoid paying tens if not hundreds of millions, some of which goes towards funding political parties that in turn hand them tax breaks on the amount that they cannot avoid paying.

i think we should encourage hmrc to chase more of these greedy celebs. should remove the need for austerity overnight.

This tax drama is gonna make his jokes even more predictable.

BBC Breaking News ?@BBCBreaking

Comedian @jimmycarr tweets he will no longer be involved in K2 tax shelter scheme: "apologies to everyone". More soon http://bbc.in/NWuT52

allthepies - Member

Hmmmmmmm..

Hmmmmmmm what ? It would appear that a good few people believe that the tax loopholes should be plugged. I can't see much evidence that many people think they are a good idea.

My point is that they're legal tax avoidance schemes, as is the scheme that Carr is using. although I'm not sure where I'm going with it. 🙂

[quote=ernie_lynch said]Hmmmmmmm what ? It would appear that a good few people believe that the tax loopholes should be plugged. I can't see much evidence that many people think they are a good idea.

But while it remains unplugged you're quite happy for people to use schemes like K2 to exploit it ?

Comedian @jimmycarr tweets he will no longer be involved in K2 tax shelter scheme: "apologies to everyone". More soon http://bbc.in/NWuT52

This will have a lot more to do with his use of a scheme that clearly does not comply with HMRC rules and the likelihood that he will now have to repay the tax avoided, with penalties and compound interest.

Nothing to do with public backlash and falling ticket sales then?

If the tax law was simplified by someone who actual understood the meaning of the words 'fair' and 'more' then 'tax avoidance' wouldn't be an issue.

But while it remains unplugged you're quite happy for people to use schemes like K2 to exploit it ?

So what I think represents the opinions of "Leftytrackworld" as you call it ? I hadn't realised that - I feel honoured.

Yeah, my priority is that unjustified loopholes should be plugged. I don't have much of an issue with people minimising their tax liabilities. If doing so is so unacceptable then why is it legal ? People tend to pay their taxes based on what is legally required, we don't operate a voluntary scheme.

My point is that they're legal tax avoidance schemes, as is the scheme that Carr is using

Actually the suggestion now is that the K2 scheme is not, and that HMRC should be able to recover the avoided tax. Which makes Cameron's singling out of Carr a bit pointless. Perhaps he should focus more on the more successful tax avoidance schemes ?

There's no fun in being a prime minister these days is there? If Mr Cameron has a problem with these legal loopholes, then surely he of all people has the means to close those loopholes. Perhaps he should lobby his local MP and complain about it.

Loopholes wouldn't exist if we fundamentally changed the way that tax rules are applied. It requires a far more flexible, framework based approach which would emphasise the real nature of these arrangements rather than just clarifying the legality.

But since that will never happen, at least it's nice to see that the government is focusing on the right kind of tax avoidance for once, rather than petty amounts, accidental non-payment or charitable giving.

If it is illegal then I stand (sit) corrected. And if it isn't legal I get the feeling that Mr Carr is about to get one hell of a tax bill.

Seeing Cameron being interviewed I was shocked that he, as PM would target someone and name them even though the person isn't doing anything illegal. It seemed unprofessional from someone who is supposed to be PM.

[i]If it is illegal then I stand (sit) corrected. And if it isn't legal I get the feeling that Mr Carr is about to get one hell of a tax bill.

[/i]

Nah, I think you'll find he's found a different Accountant with different advice.

But since that will never happen, at least it's nice to see that the government is focusing on the right kind of tax avoidance for once, rather than petty amounts, accidental non-payment or charitable giving.

Are you being sarcastic? Some of the worst tax avoiders are strangely also the largest contributors to the Tory party. It's amazingly hypocritical for Cameron to criticise Carr.

Loopholes wouldn't exist if we fundamentally changed the way that tax rules are applied. It requires a far more flexible, framework based approach which would emphasise the real nature of these arrangements rather than just clarifying the legality.

Did anyone hear Michael Meacher on Radio 4 this morning. This is his private members bill that he is presently proposing

Today I am introducing a Private Member’s Bill into the Commons which will outlaw any financial transaction for which the primary purpose is tax avoidance/evasion rather than any genuine economic purpose. It will transfer the burden of proof, from HMRC having to prove that a transaction was really a disguised tax avoidance device, to a company having to prove that it had a genuine purpose. If HMRC believed for good reasons that it was really for tax avoidance purposes, they could declare that the transaction was null and void and it would be for the company, if they so chose, to challenge that decision in court. As it happens, on this very day a new tax avoidance sceme has just surfaced which would be a perfect example for the application of my Bill.

Difficult to argue with that. Chances of it getting through? With Tory support? Now Call me Dave has discovered a social conscience on the taxation issue, and will doubtless be urging his party to do the same?

Seeing Cameron being interviewed I was shocked that he, as PM would target someone and name them even though the person isn't doing anything illegal. It seemed unprofessional from someone who is supposed to be PM

The word you're looking for is 'Opportunist'. And under the dictionary definition of the word it says "See David Cameron'. The more cynical might suggest that having got all this on the front pages, today would be a good day to bury some bad news

jimmy carr has just tweeted an apology.

Binners, they want to scrap GCSE's. This maybe?

Difficult to argue with that. Chances of it getting through? With Tory support? Now Call me Dave has discovered a social conscience on the taxation issue, and will doubtless be urging his party to do the same?

Regulation to mitigate some of the worst anti-social excesses of capitalism? Are you mad?

toppers3933 - Member
Binners, they want to scrap GCSE's. This maybe?

Don't think they bothered to look at the content, they just knew Gove had another brilliant idea.

Binners, they want to scrap GCSE's. This maybe?

Absolutely not. The return of O levels (which the Tories scrapped) will be accompanied with much fanfare, and hopefully front page media coverage, as the Tories revel at being portrayed as the party committed to educational excellence.

jimmy carr has just tweeted an apology.

Aren't we supposed to now critisise him for making a U-turn? 😉

Aren't we supposed to now critisise him for making a U-turn?

when he gets past 30

Aren't we supposed to now critisise him for making a U-turn?

Yeah go on then.

Why are you pretending that Jimmy Carr is a politician and that terms such as "U turn" applies to him ?

Can't get your teeth into the Labour Party Z-11 ?

Don't think they bothered to look at the content, they just knew Gove had another brilliant idea.

They're all full of brilliant ideas. Due, no doubt, to their collectively eye-wateringly expensive educations

Andrew Lansley
George Osbourne
Pob himself
Our Glorious Leader *doffs cap*

I'm glad the NHS, the economy, our education system, and indeed the whole nation are safe in their capable hands

allthepies - Member

But while it remains unplugged you're quite happy for people to use schemes like K2 to exploit it ?

If they are legal, but morally objectionable, how is this to be policed?

Whenever some paper editor wants to get at someone like Carr and the PM then jumps in? The significant tax avoiders are the ultra rich - most likely tory supporters. You think cameron will go after them wholesale? Dream on.

The only way to stop this is to legislate or reform the taxation system.

Why are you pretending that Jimmy Carr is a politician and that terms such as "U turn" applies to him ?

[i]Today I am introducing a Private Member’s Bill into the Commons which will outlaw any financial transaction for which the primary purpose is tax avoidance/evasion rather than any genuine economic purpose. It will transfer the burden of proof, from HMRC having to prove that a transaction was really a disguised tax avoidance device, to a company having to prove that it had a genuine purpose. If HMRC believed for good reasons that it was really for tax avoidance purposes, they could declare that the transaction was null and void and it would be for the company, if they so chose, to challenge that decision in court. As it happens, on this very day a new tax avoidance sceme has just surfaced which would be a perfect example for the application of my Bill.[/i]

Wouldn't that include people stuffing cash into a pension too - as based upon the current returns...

haha ok is this something new? that people with huge cash will make the most of it? that people with huge amounts of cash don't care about those without. hahaha.It

is this not just the modern way of bringing the issue into the public eye..?

of course, we erudite STW stalwarts are proud of our dogged determination in hunting down injustice and will spend hours poring over the deeds of obscure party supporting business men to find irregularities.. but perhaps we're the intellectual minority..?

Call me Dave probably imagines that the general public may understand things a bit better if a popular celeb is at the centre of the scandal.. maybe this is the dawning of a new age of transparency and morality for the ConDems..?
Perhaps the hundreds and hundreds of millions of taxes that get legally stolen by the elite have finally started to cause the government some embarrassment..?
Maybe this is the start of a major shake down..?
The emergence of a J Edgar Hoover to topple the Eton Mafia..?

I'm not sure what point I'm trying to make, and I think I'm almost sounding like I'm investing blind optimism and trusting the government on this, so I'd better go and make a nice hot pot of tea and meditate for a bit..

I find the whole thing very odd.

Conservative PM publicly comments on an individuals tax payments (does data protection come in to that?) saying its wrong that he's avoiding tax and he shouldn't be doing.

Labour leader basically comes out and says its legal, whats wrong with that.

Isn't this complete role reversal?

Also what is the PM thinking behind this politically? It will score him points with all us poor people (or so he hopes) but for all the rich people who support his party and keep the UK economy going it will do him no favours.

Also as has been said above Jimmy Carr is a drop in the ocean, why didnt he mention some much bigger players too?

.

Also what is the PM thinking behind this politically? It will score him points with all us poor people (or so he hopes) but for all the rich people who support his party and keep the UK economy going it will do him no favours.

He'll get a Sun headline and the proles will think he's on their side (yeah... right!), whereas the Tory Donors will know that its lip service, and he'll actually do eff all to plug their dodgy offshore tax affairs.

Actually... as a percentage of his income, if Jimmy Carr paid 2% tax then that a **** of a lot more than News International paid in tax last year. And I'll go out on a limb here and guess that the sums involved are more considerable than Jimmy Carrs '8 out of 10 Cats' proceeds

Labour leader basically comes out and says its legal, whats wrong with that.

I'm not entirely sure that the Labour Leader saying "whats wrong with that" bit is true.

Another vote for Mr Carr to tell Cameron to wind his neck in. The day when a Prime Minister becomes a bully and can label someone as a Public Enemy is a bad one for us all. Stand firm Mr Carr!

I think the Labour leader is saying that it's more important to concentrate on closing the loopholes than labelling a comedian who is avoiding tax legally as "immoral". It may be immoral, but he hasn't broken any law of the land, and it's small beans compared to what we've lost as society from the "sweetheart" deals that HMRC struck with, for example, Goldman Sachs.

When is Cameron going to label Zac Goldsmith immoral?
When is Cameron going to label Philip Green immoral?
When is Cameron going to label Ashcroft immoral?
Eh? What? Eh?

David Cameron calls Jimmy Carr "Morally Wrong" for using legal tax avoidance methods. Fair play to him on that one. Cameron family fortune consolidated in legal tax avoidance schemes in Panama and Geneva.... So, do as we say and not we do then is it..?

ohnohesback +1

Of course. Nothing like picking on someone to divert attention away for the mess that you're making...

Of course. Nothing like picking on someone to divert attaention away for the mess that you're making...

Anyone would think the Tories are, well, erm, kind of bully-ish eh?

If Cameron's behaviour is a barometer of the Tory party's essential nature, then I'd have to say that it's irrefutable evidence that they are indeed, scum...

Messages of support here:

Colourful criticisms here: http://www.conservatives.com/Information/Contact_Us.aspx

Just saying, like...

IMO Jimmy Carr has played this all wrong rather than a trite appologetic tweet he really should have stood on his doorstep this morning given a little shrug and said something like;

[I]"I made a mistake. Not avoiding taxes, everyone with a few quid does that, No I fogot to make a donation to the Conservative party... Cheques in the post Dave."[/I]

That would have been far better...

In fact, I'm so incensed at Cameron's bullsht that I'm going to vote Labour at the next election. Not that I think that bunch of tosseurs are any better at running stuff, but just to stick one up Cameron's rear entry.

cookeaa - Member

IMO Jimmy Carr has played this all wrong rather than a trite appologetic tweet he really should have stood on his doorstep this morning given a little shrug and said something like;

"I made a mistake. Not avoiding taxes, everyone with a few quid does that, No I fogot to make a donation to the Conservative party... Cheques in the post Dave."

That would have been far better...

10 out of 10! 🙂

Calm down Woppit, you'll feel a whole lot better after you've had a nice relaxing cup of tea.

Then I'm sure you won't feel any need to stick one up Cameron's rear entry.

Don't tell me to calm down, you patronising dick.

lol, oh dear.

Don't tell me to calm down, you patronising dick.

Clearly you don't need to calm down at all then.

Well, obviously!!! 😀

Now now boys

[img] [/img]

Did someone say Dick?

I have an attractive one I'd have you know