[Closed] jerry adams arrested

apparently the PSNI are off to court to keep Adams in longer than the allowed time.

Fingers crossed 🙂

another 2 days granted

http://www.u.tv/News/PSNI-granted-48-more-hours-to-quiz-Adams/1220fd66-857a-4b5d-a665-0d0cc4092e5e

He should go on hunger strike or perhaps a dirty protest...

What wonderful humour. Did you learn that or did it just come naturally?

Who said it was humour? Would he be able to do what some of his comrades before him did?

Who said it was humour?

I get the distinct impression that might have been seosamh's point. I think you might find that he was being ironic.

Who said it was humour? Would he be able to do what some of his comrades before him did

Ordering cannon fodder to starve themselves to death while smearing themselves in faeces is one thing, doing it yourself? Nah...

There's the irony.

It might be, yes. If Jerry Adams was a coward unprepared to face death and Bobby Sands was "cannon fodder" who was forced against his will to join the IRA and then ordered, by Jerry Adams, to starve himself to death, then it could indeed be described as ironic.

However 5thElefant doesn't explain how he knows all this stuff, so it's difficult to tell.

And to be fair I reckon few people would accept the argument that Bobby Sands was forced to do stuff against his free will.

Yip, I sense a slight lack of knowledge regarding the hunger strikes....i'd recommend "Ten men dead" as a good starting point.

ninfan plus 1
The hypocrisy and irony of people wanting to leave old crimes (that their favoured side committed) in the past while pursuing others through the courts just makes my head melt.

Many of the innocent victims of the troubles were forced to forgo justice and watch killers go free to achieve peace.

If republicans want to pursue justice for crimes which have had no resolution now, then everyone else gets to play too.

Watching Sinn Fein. (slogan during the troubles "freedom justice peace" if you want to guage their grasp of irony) try to explain why shouldn't be the case is almost priceless

And to be fair I reckon few people would accept the argument that Bobby Sands was forced to do stuff against his free will.

...which carries precisely as much weight as the argument you are trying to counter 🙄

Except unlike 5thElefant I'm not making any claims.

.

EDIT : Sorry I forgot ............. 🙄

Well, your straw man aside, do you really think those stinky fellas would have killed themselves without orders from their superiors? There's a clue in the A of IRA.

Yeah, they were just following orders.

All this is a good example of why Ulster should be part of an Independent Scotland post September..

5thElefant - Member
Well, your straw man aside, do you really think those stinky fellas would have killed themselves without orders from their superiors? There's a clue in the A of IRA.

Read the book I suggested.

Save me some time.

Was there order from above or not (or does the book not say)

I've no interest in saving you time.

muddydwarf - Member
All this is a good example of why Ulster should be part of an Independent Scotland post September..

POSTED 2 HOURS AGO # REPORT-POST

Just when I thought you couldn't possibly talk any more shite, you pop up and raise the bar again. Away back to shouting at car drivers.

Muppet.

I'm from Norn Ireland.

The Republican freedom fighters say the troubles were war, not terrorism. Give them that, and pardon the operations against targets that were legitimate by the Geneva Convention, assuming war was declared between the two sides.

Some debate needed to define a legitimate target I agree, but a widowed mother of 10? If there is evidence for a prosecution, it must go ahead.

Waderider - MI'm from Norn Ireland.

The Republican freedom fighters say the troubles were war, not terrorism. Give them that, and pardon the operations against targets that were legitimate by the Geneva Convention, assuming war was declared between the two sides.

ember
Some debate needed to define a legitimate target I agree, but a widowed mother of 10? If there is evidence for a prosecution, it must go ahead.

I don't know these answers(or if they relate to mrs McConville, but I do think it is unclear why she was killed), just putting them out there for debate.

If she was either of the 2 above suggestions, well then that opens up wider question about the responsibility of the spooks and what they where up to. ie if it is taken that the woman was warned, why then would they give her another transimitter and ask her to continue her operations rather than just get her and her family out of there.

It's all as clear as mud tbh. (I also understand that the british state is unlikely to consider these scenarios. But I'm not the british state, so I can consider them.)

(or if they relate to mrs conville, but I do think it is unclear why she was killed),

McConville.

Nobeerinthefridge - Member
(or if they relate to mrs conville, but I do think it is unclear why she was killed),
McConville.

fixed, just a typo.

btw for wider correction it's Gerry not Jerry! 😉

I agree with Waderider. I never supported the armed struggle as the existing conditions did not justify it imo, but I can understand for the need to bury the past in pursuit of peace, which is indisputably the overriding issue for NI. I don't however see why a blind eye should be turned to all crimes committed during the Troubles. Although I am suspicious of the motives of those behind both the allegations and the arrest.

its a heavy subject for a bike forum and I have tried not to look never mind post but also couldn't help but read the thread,
look,talking as an ex (and old) 3 para soldier familiar with the reality of those bad times and as at least as an informed person trying my best to understand the emotional complexities at the time what I think I am sure of or have the view on at least is the following...
the current situation and arrest is definitely, without doubt, politically motivated, the "murder" in question, the involvement, the IRA participants, the plan, IRA command and control attached, has been known for years, yes years, not weeks or months, so this arrest could have been made much earlier, regardless of the softening of the relatives ability to testify.
what happened in those years of troubles was awful, indiscriminate at times, and can never be reasoned.
what happened in those years happened from both sides, I know because I was on one of those sides
what has happened since, the "peace process" isn't perfect, it has friction, fractions that refuse to accept it and on occasions those acts that cant be tolerated still happen.
Gerry adams was a commander of the provisional IRA and as a senior council member would have been party to, and would have ordered on many occasions, the death and destruction that consequently followed his decisions.
one of the things I understood over time is that its a very complex and difficult situation, how would you like to be a taxi driver in Dublin who has to stop with the elderly couple in the back and have an SLR pointed at you whilst you opened the boot of your car before you could continue along the road your great great grandfather used to drive his tractor along to get the herd in every morning and then get home to find your 14 year old son black and blue,battered by the police and/or army because of an alledged incident...or equally be waving your 17 year old son away as he goes off to his posting after seeing his passing out parade go well cos you bought him some spot cream to alleviate his teenage acne and then welcome him back in a black bag with a flag and a nice letter from the CO.
it was all bad
its much better now
my view is that those times and deaths and criminal acts were terrible
but now is better
its not perfect
at least mr adams is now fighting without body bags
we wanted political engagement for years - we have it now
lets ensure that what is behind the line in the sand stays there and yes, we deal with everything else in the new world, new way.
the current situation is way before the line in the sand
joe blogs wouldn't be there for the same crime
the above is factual.
finally, wish I had the answers...

Thank you shortbaldone. For both your post and your service. Politics is a dirty business and whilst the result doesn't justify the deeds, it also does. South Africa had a truth and reconciliation commission. It's a shame its still to raw for that in NI.

true enough big john

My apologies everyone.
read this thread whilst rather drunk & said something rather silly.
Seosamh has a socio-political opinion i do not agree with & find extremely off-putting - it is however perfectly valid & does not validate my response.

Fair dos, I try not to post whilst drinking!.

I can understand for the need to bury the past in pursuit of peace, which is indisputably the overriding issue for NI. I don't however see why a blind eye should be turned to all crimes committed during the Troubles. Although I am suspicious of the motives of those behind both the allegations and the arrest.

Sadly both sides to just sort of forgive and move on though, for the victims families, this is a big ask . Especially when key movers are so intrinsically involved int he peace process.

Whatever I think of the IRA or adama or the British army in NI i would rather than the versions we have now than then.

Preserving the peace may be the lesser of two evils here.

Truth and reconciliation panels would have been a better option IMHO.

To avoid victor's justice, no side was exempt from appearing before the commission. The commission heard reports of human rights violations and considered amnesty applications from all sides, from the apartheid state to the liberation forces, including the African National Congress.

My apologies everyone.

were any of those sentences "post peace"

I'd forgotten some... I know of five convictions in the 80's (3 later cleared), 3 in the 90's (Lee Clegg later cleared)

two of them (Gdsmn Fisher and Wright) were convicted after the ceasefire but before the GFA

Though decisions taken, rightly or wrongly by soldiers under extreme pressure, on limited information, in a hostile environment and often in fear of their lives in a snap decision can hardly be compared with the decision taken from the comfort of your living room to have a mother of ten torn from her family and murdered, whatever the supposed justification)

Ta

Those two were let back into the army after serving the time for murder though 😯
I was more wondering about for say a "black ops" type stuff rather than a

Its still a genuine Q just fighting my natural bias as its true I cannot name any

As Jim McDonald rightly points out, people are regularly put out of the Army for smoking cannabis - yet these soldiers have been allowed to stay on. One has even been promoted," he said.

"In fact, every soldier found guilty of murder has been discharged from the Army, except where their victims have been civilians in the north."

FWIW I would make a distinction between errors committed in the field and illegal/ planned operations as well.

Its fair to say both sides still want justice for the atrrocities they suffered and not for the atrocities [ crimes may be a less emotive word here] they did

I'm inclined to think that their reinstatement was down to an understanding of that distinction between errors committed in the heat of the moment and planned cold blooded murder.

I was more wondering about for say a "black ops" type stuff

Difficult, because of course almost anyone ever shot by the forces was an innocent bystander, salt of the earth, upstanding member of the community who just happened to be where they were at the time through coincidence... Continually crying foul over, for example, the Loughall ambush or Gibraltar killings, whilst in the same breath defending the murder of Airey Neave, Mountbatten, or the Deal or Hyde park troop bombings as legitimate targets is just ridiculous though, though therein lies the propaganda war.

years of lies and obfuscation by either/both sides don't help either (For example decades of lies and denial over IRA weapons on bloody Sunday)

Its fair to say both sides still want justice for the atrrocities they suffered and not for the atrocities [ crimes may be a less emotive word here] they did

I think that there remains a distinction between (whilst it pains me to call them that) legitimate military targets (on either side), and the other killings

I don't hear a heavy clamour for 'justice' over the soldiers that were killed, though there are clearly certain ones that still leave a very bitter taste in the mouth, who amongst us can't recall seeing Cpl Howes and Wood dragged from that car and bundled into a black cab before being murdered in cold blood 🙁 .

Whereas IMO the killings of clearly innocent civilians like the two poor boys killed in Warrington deserve to be pursued to the N'th degree

ninfan - Member
I'm inclined to think that their reinstatement was down to an understanding of that distinction between errors committed in the heat of the moment and planned cold blooded murder.

I was more wondering about for say a "black ops" type stuff
Difficult, because of course almost anyone ever shot by the forces was an innocent bystander, salt of the earth, upstanding member of the community who just happened to be where they were at the time through coincidence... Continually crying foul over, for example, the Loughall ambush or Gibraltar killings, whilst in the same breath defending the murder of Airey Neave, Mountbatten, or the Deal or Hyde park troop bombings as legitimate targets is just ridiculous though, though therein lies the propaganda war.

years of lies and obfuscation by either/both sides don't help either (For example decades of lies and denial over IRA weapons on bloody Sunday)

Its fair to say both sides still want justice for the atrrocities they suffered and not for the atrocities [ crimes may be a less emotive word here] they did
I think that there remains a distinction between (whilst it pains me to call them that) legitimate military targets (on either side), and the other killings

I don't hear a heavy clamour for 'justice' over the soldiers that were killed, though there are clearly certain ones that still leave a very bitter taste in the mouth, who amongst us can't recall seeing Cpl Howes and Wood dragged from that car and bundled into a black cab before being murdered in cold blood .

Whereas IMO the killings of clearly innocent civilians like the two poor boys killed in Warrington deserve to be pursued to the N'th degree

I honestly do think that it would be for the greater good to move beyond that on both sides, and offer forgiveness, and concentrate more on how to bring down peace walls rather than putting them up, truth and reconciliation maybe a part of that, amnesty may be better(imo), but I don't think pursuing convictions for the next 50 years will ultimately help the wider goal of normalising society in the O6.

I don't hear a heavy clamour for 'justice' over the soldiers that were killed, though there are clearly certain ones that still leave a very bitter taste in the mouth, who amongst us can't recall seeing Cpl Howes and Wood dragged from that car and bundled into a black cab before being murdered in cold blood .

So Sinn Fein are going to 'review their relationship with the PSNI' if Adams is charged.

Old habits die hard, nice bit of blackmail mixed with implied threat.

Less ballot box more armalite do we think? Politics at the point of a gun, really classy.

Now what's that saying about the leopard again?

It's sometimes interesting to read the opinions of outsiders on the subject of N.I and our [i]troubles[/i]. I'd like to thank Shortbaldone - your post is the only thing worth reading in this thread.

whilst in the same breath defending the murder of Airey Neave, Mountbatten, or the Deal or Hyde park troop bombings as legitimate targets is just ridiculous though,

Old habits die hard, nice bit of blackmail mixed with implied threat.

perhaps if they were charging soldiers at the same time it would be easier to claim balance.
It is a tough choice for sure.

.....the opinions of outsiders on the subject of N.I and our troubles.

Well that's the whole point - it was never "your" troubles. And Brits are anything but "outsiders". Britain has, and always has had, direct responsibility for the situation in NI. And British public opinion has always been absolutely crucial with regards to the behaviour of British governments.

Sadly too often and for too long British public opinion was hugely uninterested in the situation in NI which resulted in consecutive British governments following policies which did little in improving the situation.

I remember at the height of the Troubles a poster which depicted a map of the British Isles in which Northern Ireland had a mouth on its east coast that was speaking to the UK, the UK had a huge ear on its west coast in which was firmly placed a very large bottle cork, the slogan on the post said "the UK isn't listening" which nicely summed up the situation imo.

ninfan - Member

Continually crying foul over, for example, the Loughall ambush or Gibraltar killings, whilst in the same breath defending the murder of Airey Neave, Mountbatten, or the Deal or Hyde park troop bombings as legitimate targets is just ridiculous though

There's a few things going on there though. First of all, well, that's one of the plus sides of being a terrorist isn't it, you don't need to worry about the moral highground, a state has to be held to a higher standard than a terrorist. So it's not an even playing field at all. There's no moral equivilance.

Second... There's the old "work with the system you have while trying to change it"- it's reasonable to be in favour of a full amnesty/truth and reconciliation approach, while at the same time saying "but we don't have that so we'll act accordingly. It even becomes a legitimate persuasion tactic- if you can make the lack of an amnesty sufficiently difficult for the other side, they're more likely to offer it.

ernie_lynch - Member
"the UK isn't listening"

He's to be released shortly.

I heard Peter hain is calling for the arrest of the Paras that killed all those unarmed civilisns on Bloody Sunday. If true, things are getting interesting.

There's a few things going on there though. First of all, well, that's one of the plus sides of being a terrorist isn't it, you don't need to worry about the moral highground

You forget, the IRA were not terrorists, they were a legitimate army fighting a legitimate campaign and only attacking legitimate military targets.

At Loughhall they were engaged in an open armed attack, at Gibraltar in preparatory acts for an attack (despite not identifying themselves as such and therefore carrying no right to combatant status) - according to their own claims they were combatants under the [url= http://www.icrc.org/ihl/4e473c7bc8854f2ec12563f60039c738/524284f49042d4c8c12563cd0051dbaf?OpenDocument ]Geneva Conventions[/url] and thus legitimate military targets themselves.

They can't ride both ponies!

I heard Peter hain is calling for the arrest of

What, he thinks that people should just be arrested for the sake of it despite there not being any new evidence? Just a couple of weeks ago he was saying there should be no more prosecutions at all, now he wants tit for tat arrests just to send the right 'message'?

Funny that he doesn't appear to be calling for the reinvestigation of certain unsolved bank robberies though...

Thankfully there is plenty of evidence to convict the Paras - hopefully we'll get justice for this massacre at least.

hopefully we'll get justice

we?

Yes "we", the common man in the street who supports the rule of law and likes to see justice prevail.

ninfan - Member

You forget, the IRA were not terrorists, they were a legitimate army fighting a legitimate campaign and only attacking legitimate military targets.

No, I just ignore things that are total bollocks.

ninfan - Member
You forget, the IRA were not terrorists, they were a legitimate army fighting a legitimate campaign and only attacking legitimate military targets.

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrington_bomb_attacks ]Tell that to the people of Warrington. [/url]

Amongst nearly 2000 civilian killed by PIRA. Maybe they forgot who they were at war with.

Yes "we", the common man in the street who supports the rule of law and likes to see justice prevail.

Murder is murder, even if you support one particular murderer. Or does your "we" only see justice for one side?

If there were murderers on either side, let justice prevail. If those murderers are now politicians, so be it.

100% agree. Murder is murder - i have declared support for no one

So, would you agree that

nearly 2000 civilian killed by PIRA.

is also a massacre?

Absolutely - is that a problem?

If there were murderers on either side, let justice prevail. If those murderers are now politicians, so be it.

Would you forego peace for your desire for justice?

None at all, just wanted to know your standpoint! Which is pretty much spot on for me!

Cool - so we are agreed Murder is murder, wether committed by a freedom fighter, terrorist or a British Soldier. I feel progress has been made tonight 🙂

Just been driven off in a volvo.let the trouble now begin

Why what's wrong with a Volvo ?

craigxxl - Member
Amongst nearly 2000 civilian killed by PIRA. Maybe they forgot who they were at war with.

So, its OK for the British Government to send soldiers who too part in Bloody Sunday to court to be tried but its not OK to do the same to Adams for his wrong doings?

There's more blood on that mans hands than all the Bloody Sunday soldiers hands 10 times over, if what they did was wrong in the courts eyes that is....

ernie_lynch - Member
Why what's wrong with a Volvo ?

press conference starting now on bbc news 24.

Yeah in Gaelic. Doesn't he know that the official language in NI is English ?

EDIT : Now in English 🙄

How DARE he speak Irish.

Good point 33tango.......perhaps that's what this thread needs - people to post in Gaelic. That would be constructive, wouldn't it ?

Whats This forum got to do with Gerry Adams speaking Irish?

You're posting about it?

What do you mean?

You're posting on this forum, about Gerry Adams speaking Irish, are you not?

You made the point "How DARE he speak Irish" I assumed you thought that speaking Gaelic to an English speaking audience is a good idea. Did I get that wrong then ?

Speaking Irish is not a crime AFAIK. He is a grown man and speak whatever language he wants.

Anyway it's all fairly academic as most of the press conference has been in English and all the questions and answers are in English. Speaking Gaelic was obviously just tokenism to impress people.

Or for ppl to try and cause an argument 😉

Speaking Irish is not a crime AFAIK.

And someone said it was ? 😆

He is a grown man and speak whatever language he wants.

Of course he can. He could give a press conference in Chinese, if he can speak it. But would you not expect people to challenge the usefulness of doing so ?

Not a crime but your reaction was one of horror! I just wanted to clarify it that he is perfectly entitled to speak it. Wether or not it is useful to you is a moot point 🙂

good statement and answers I thought. very much still focused on peace.

It's a bit like using mystery initials and codewords to describe people in a STW thread.