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About time
Not sure what good this will serve, even if he is guilty
If he is guilty, justice will be served, which is as it should be.
If he is innocent, someone's going to have some serious egg on their face, but again, justice.
To have arrested him, which is a very public act, I would guess that there is some compelling evidence.
No way his hands are clean.
Not sure what good this will serve, even if he is guilty
Well someone who is possibly guilty of taking part in a murder should really be prosecuted, letting them go free certainly won't do much good.
Given the position that he is reputed to have held, you can't help but wonder what he would presumably - if it's true - known about or been involved in.
Unpleasant or not, when you try and make peace with alleged former terrorists, it puts you in a difficult position if evidence then links them to a particular crime. Makes you realise just how clever the South African truth and reconciliation process was.
(Have I phrased that in such a way that STW can't be sued?)
I hope they have a cast iron case and he ends up behind bars for a very long time.
However, you have to worry if this will re-ignite the "troubles".
Can't see they would have jumped early on this.
Boston tapes I wonder?
Will he get leniency for all those years as a tout?
has his pal been lifted too?
However, you have to worry if this will re-ignite the "troubles".
For some, they've never stopped.
1. Good
2. Who's Jerry? 😉
Good point!
Link?
Any news site.
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-27232731 ]For Al[/url]
Thought provoking.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/gerry-adams-s-ira-past-crucial-to-peace-1.1608220
has his pal been lifted too?
We can only hope he will be.
I wonder if this was on the Giro d' Italia's Risk Register
I remember watching a documentary a few years ago regarding her killing and what her kids went through. Horrible.
Hope they've finally got them with evidence that'll convict.
I wouldn't get your hopes for any kind of conviction for him or McGuiness for any crimes or acts of terrorism they have committed. On the other hand they will continue to push for the conviction of many soldiers and police during the troubles.
Hah. That'd be an interesting one wouldn't it, Adams confesses and says "Right, your turn"
Problem is quite simple, there are a lot of guilty men and women, some in the Republic, some in NI and some on the mainland. Some killed, some told others to do the killing.
How many politicians on all sides have pasts that could be used against them? How many "soldiers" and police on all sides did things that are questionable? Will we see police officers arrested and charged for passing information to Loyalists? Will we see Para's and SAS arrested?
From reading the article it sounds like JA is going to talk, whether this leads to anything more who knows.
I am not convinced that trials are going to a panacea. Sometimes it is better not to dig to deep.
I wouldn't get your hopes for any kind of conviction for him or McGuiness for any crimes or acts of terrorism they have committed.
Why, are they protected by the Tony Blair Protocol ?
Reconciliation would be the better way.
Fan the flames and there will be more fire, more suffering.
Reconciliation would be the better way.
+1
the only way is forward not back, and they've still got a very long way to go in NI. More peace walls have been built since the Good Friday Agreement than before, so things are far from 'normal' over there.
NB For those that don't know, a peace wall is a 40' high wall between loyalist and republican streets designed to stop petrol bombs.....
Reconciliation is the way forward but Jean McConville was not a "legitimate" military target. Justice must be seen. I have no opinion on Adams culpability btw, and I do recognise his invaluable contribution to the peace process.
""While I have never disassociated myself from the IRA and I never will, I am innocent of any part in the abduction, killing or burial of Mrs McConville."
so would you like to talk about the abductions and killings you did order or take part in?
epicyclo - Member
Reconciliation would be the better way.Fan the flames and there will be more fire, more suffering.
Much as it would pain me to see Adams and his ilk not just walk free, but have positions of trust and power in the UK, I wholeheartedly agree Brian.
That nice Mr Adams? Surely not?
Much as I'd like to see GA rot in prison, I would be very surprised if any charges for him or any senior SF politician come out of this.
This formal interview, if anything, is more likely to be helpful to him. He can say, yes, I was implicated, but the police have interviewed me, looked at the evidence, and not taken the matter any further.
Ready to be surprised, obviously.
Reconciliation is the way forward but Jean McConville was not a "legitimate" military target. Justice must be seen.
Problem as i see it, Loyalists were also guilty of similar, so where do you stop?
Everyone wants the truth, everyone wants justice, but sometimes, unfortunately, it isn't the best thing for the greater good.
I agree with this, everyone wants justice on all sides, but an amnesty would be more beneficial than pursuing justice that will never come.epicyclo - Member
Reconciliation would be the better way.Fan the flames and there will be more fire, more suffering.
Everyone wants the truth, everyone wants justice, but sometimes, unfortunately, it isn't the best thing for the greater good.
Eminently sensible, but try to stand in front of some bereaved families and say that.
I'm not being confrontational with you - just trying to illustrate how this kind of 'process' cannot truly succeed without the buy-in of all parties.
I wouldn't shed any tears for Gerry Adams as a man - a very astute political operator shall we say?
Used to know a lad that served in NI with the "funnies" - always said Adams was up to his neck in blood. In mitigation (sort of) it appears that said "funnies" weren't that much better, in light of recent evidence.
Boston tapes I wonder?
Yes. As was Bell.
He had his chance (during the peace process) to push for a truth and reconciliation commission (a la South Africa).
Personally, I think he didn't take it because of things like this coming out.
He fancies himself a big politician and, even to his supporters, ordering the torture (from the evidence on her remains) and murder of the mother of 10 kids for trying to help a dying british soldier in the street, and then claiming she was a tout (informer) doesn't read as well as "freedom fighter".
If british soldiers might still face court over bloody sunday (and if they pulled the trigger on unarmed people then they definitely should) then adams should not escape justice if there is evidence.
My prediction, nothing will happen.
N.B. For those who say "it was the same on both sides" ..
I agree that many bad things were done by both sides, but I defy you to produce evidence that any other current politician in the UK has ever ordered the deliberate torture and murder of an innocent woman?
You phrased that very carefully to exclude Thatcher.
Well someone who is possibly guilty of taking part in a murder should really be prosecuted, letting them go free certainly won't do much good.
Tons of murderers went free as part of the peace process.
konabunny .. "You phrased that carefully to exclude Thatcher"
If you are talking about me? (not sure?) I'm not entirely sure what you mean by careful wording?
Are you saying that Thatcher ordered the deliberate torture and murder of an innocent woman? (apologies if I've got the wrong end of the stick).
Also "Tons of [CONVICTED] murderers went free as part of the peace process."
But there was never a decision (even with all the "letters" nonsense of a few months ago) not to pursue people for crimes where there were no current convictions and where new evidence was available.
As I see it the choices are either
a)If hes guilty he should go to jail (as should anyone who killed an innocent civilian).
OR:
b) Everyone should tell the truth and no-one gets punished (truth and reconciliation commission)
Even Gerry can't have it both ways.
[url= http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/may/01/gerry-adams-arrest-martin-mcguinness-elections-northern-ireland ]http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/may/01/gerry-adams-arrest-martin-mcguinness-elections-northern-ireland[/url]
And the fallout begins.
I expect a legal loophole, and lots of appeal's to wriggle out of all this.
So the Yanks have legally obtained the Boston tapes, must be more to this than we know about so far.
The really sad story that seems to lost in the press frenzy is that Mrs Jean McConville was a widowed mother-of-10 children who after her abduction and murder were forcibly legally split up by social services and separately fostered and so lost touch with each other for in some cases a decade or so 😥
A truth and reconciliation commission, isn't a one size fits all solution, it worked to a certain extent in SA under very different conditions.
In NI it would be better to hopefully let the past slip away with the generations rather than bring so much focus on the crimes and atrocities committed by all sides, that would likely re-ignite the violence.
I shall be watching this with eager anticipation.
( I went to Uni with someone whose Parents died at the height of the killings )
Still being questioned according to the news 😯
What do you think they offered him for supper? 😉
Read the full story yesterday and saw the children of Mrs McConville on TV still traumatised by the whole thing. Truly appalling story....I'd love to see Adams banged up forever, but wonder what harm may come from it.
Rockape63 - Member
Read the full story yesterday and saw the children of Mrs McConville on TV still traumatised by the whole thing. Truly appalling story....I'd love to see Adams banged up forever, but wonder what harm may come from it.
What ever happened to innocent till proven guilty? you do know being questioned doesn't equate to guilt, aye?
The mconville children saw the faces of those who took their mother as they weren't wearing masks (they haven't told the police who). The Boston tapes lay the blame squarely at Adams feet. Everybody knows who did what in the troubles. Proving it in a court of law is a different matter, largely due to witness reluctence to testify as these people would kill you and your family in the blink of an eye, rather than than there being no evidence.
And to be fair, Gerry Adams and the word innocent are slightly odd bedfellows.
do you think adams carried out the killing? The boston tapes lay the blame at Adams for giving the order(so it will be all but impossible to prove tbh), but, I think brendan hughes was a bit on the bitter side, so who know's how reliable that testimony is. If that's all the evidence there is, then really this is just underhand political manouvering.thestabiliser - Member
@seosamh77The mconville children saw the faces of those who took their mother as they weren't wearing masks (they haven't told the police who). The Boston tapes lay the blame squarely at Adams feet. Everybody knows who did what in the troubles. Proving it in a court of law is a different matter, largely due to witness reluctence to testify as these people would kill you and your family in the blink of an eye, rather than than there being no evidence.
possibly and most likely probably, but you still need to prove it.Nobeerinthefridge - Member
And to be fair, Gerry Adams and the word innocent are slightly odd bedfellows.
Imagine being the copper who pulled all this together and had to make the decision on whether to pull Adams in for questioning? How far up the line do you reckon that decision had to go to be approved?
I think you're both naive and foolish to think that ther most important factor here is what can be proven in a court of law
She's still dead and its known who is responsible for it.
Allegedly.thestabiliser - Member
I think you're both naive and foolish to think that ther most important factor here is what can be proven in a court of lawShe's still dead and its known who is responsible for it.
Tbh I think it's all stage managed anyhow, peter robinsons comments are interesting.
Meanwhile the DUP leader and First Minister Peter Robinson has come out in support of the PSNI in the actions they have taken in the McConville murder investigation.He explained: "I would suggest it would be political policing if the PSNI had not questioned those that were deemed to have been involved in any way.
[b]"It strengthens the political process in Northern Ireland for people to know that no-one is above the law, everyone is equal under the law and everyone is equally subject to the law.[/b]
"I commend the police for the action they have taken. They must have known that by taking this step they would be criticised from some quarters but it is my duty as First Minister, as it is for others that have taken up ministerial office, to give their support to police and the rule of law."
i think the bit in bold is the end game here(in this particular instance), creating illusions.
Allegedly
No it IS known but the witnesses are too frightened (of an organisation that has 'rejected' violence) to corroborate the other evidence which is uinsufficient on it's own to secure a conviction.
How can you know what the witness has to say, if they haven't said it?thestabiliser - Member
Allegedly
No it IS known but the witnesses are too frightened (of an organisation that has 'rejected' violence) to corroborate the other evidence which is uinsufficient on it's own to secure a conviction.
Michael Mconville yesterday on Radio 4 said that he knew the people who abducted and murdered his mother as when they tore her from his eleven year old arms and dragged her into the street they were not wearing masks and sees them to this day but that he is too frightened for the safety of his own family to name them. Is that clear enough?
thestabiliser - Member
Michael Mconville yesterday on Radio 4 said that he knew the people who abducted and murdered his mother as when they tore her from his eleven year old arms and dragged her into the street they were not wearing masks and sees them to this day but that he is too frightened for the safety of his own family to name them. Is that clear enough?
I know what he's said, he still hasn't named names though. So currently it's quite a leap to be pointing fingers at Adams.
People get interviewed under caution all the time, it's no indicator of guilt.
I've just finished a rather scarey book on Belfast in the 70s called Watching The Door by Kevin Myers, a sort of unofficial chronicle of all the nasty people in Belfast, whom he names - probably because most of them are now dead.
Curiously he is very short on detail on Adams and McGuinness. Maybe that's just because both were very junior at that time.
Michael McConville:
he had been abducted and beaten by the IRA when he was 11, and warned if he went to the police that he or family members would be killed.
"I do know the names of the people, I've never told anyone," he said.
"I wouldn't tell the police. If I told the police now a thing, me or one of my family members or one of my children would get shot by those people," he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme.
He said that "everybody thinks this has all gone away", but that people still suffered intimidation - not by the IRA, but by "splinter groups" of the paramilitary organisation.
"They would just class you as an informant and they would shoot you," he said.
I don't think it is just as easy to name the killers and that will be it when you live in the same area.
Like I said, you're naive and foolish
Especially true when you have experience of what happens to informants.(which in the locale(not the papers) it's still widely believed mrs mcconville was)BlindMelon - MemberI don't think it is just as easy to name the killers and that will be it when you live in the same area.
explain?thestabiliser - Member
Like I said, you're naive and foolish
Especially true when you have experience of what happens to informants.(which in the locale(not the papers) it's still widely believed mrs mcconville was)
and a ****
thestabiliser - Memberand a ****
There's really no need for insults.
Personally, I believe it's highly suspect that the IRA would abduct a mother of 10 for no reason, and rather believe the story that she was caught, warned and the caught again(a mother of 10, struggling financially is an extremely easy target for the spooks).
Not that I agree with the actions of that, though, but i think the idea that a mother of 10 is abducted and dissappeared for no reason utterly ridiculous.
She was seen to help a dying soldier, she was then taken to a bingo hall and had the shit beaten out of her. SHe was then found wandering the streets by the army and returned home. She was abducted that evening. Whether otr not she had any previous contact with the intelligence services I don't know but an independant report said not.
Regardless of the reason that this mother was torn from her children's arms, beaten and murdered the fact remains that those responsible need brought to justice.
whatever the "reason" given it is not sufficeint to jsutify what they did
I think we all know it was not random so there was a "reason" but the reason appears to be wrong
Either way even if she was an informant the "punishment" was severe to put it mildly and to do it in front of her kids and leave 10 kids with no parent and threaten some of them afterwards is impossible to defend
Dont get me wrong many atrocities were committed by all sides but nothing about this episode is defendable NOTHING
I'm not defending it.Junkyard - lazarus is impossible to defend
BlindMelon - Member
those responsible need brought to justice.
Personally, I disagree, and not just in this case, or cases involving republicans. As mentioned, I think there needs to be an amnesty for the greater good. I don't believe dragging up cases from 20/30/40/50 years ago helps the ultimate goal of peace in O6(FWIW it believe a united Ireland should(and will) be achieved via the ballot box).
As i mentioned, I reckon this is just political posturing to create the illusion that some justice has been tried to be gotten, and ultimately a few years down the line there will be an amnesty.
There isn't an amnesty though, is there? So if there's reason to pursue a case PSNI would be failing if they didn't.
Maybe, but I don't really believe that's what's happening here.thestabiliser - Member
There isn't an amnesty though, is there? So if there's reason to pursue a case PSNI would be failing if they didn't.
Edit, I could easily be entirely wrong, I'm just an observer from afar. time will tell.
those responsible need brought to justice.
How many UK soldiers have been charged or questioned for their acts?
a united Ireland should(and will) be achieved via the ballot box
A day that I believe will bring violence back to the streets of Ulster and indeed the Republic of Ireland.
Maybe, depends how the transition is handled.sv - Member
a united Ireland should(and will) be achieved via the ballot box
A day that I belive will bring violence back to the streets of Ulster and indeed the Republic of Ireland.
It'll be some transition to avoid it! If violence worked for SF/IRA it can work for the PUL too.
How will this transistion work?
Health service, police service, civil service - will they exist as separate entities in 'the North'?
Currency?
Loyal Orders - when can they march freely in Dublin?
sv - Member
It'll be some transition to avoid it! If violence worked for SF/IRA it can work for the PUL too.How will this transistion work?
Health service, police service, civil service - will they exist as separate entities in 'the North'?
Currency?
Loyal Orders - when can they march freely in Dublin?
I'm am not getting involved in a 32 county thread that follows the same lines as the scottish independence thread! Enjoy! 
It'll happen because of the way the demographics are working out(nationalists/republicans are out breeding the loyalists/unionists), how that'll manifest itself in reality, who knows.
incidently what we are seeing now with Adams being arrested is part of a long term plan to placate unionists imo (that extreme republicans seem unable to comprehend).
How many UK soldiers have been charged or questioned for their acts?
Off the top of my head I can think of four British Army soldiers that were convicted of murder and imprisoned.
I also recall a rather significant public inquiry into bloody Sunday that led to further police inquiries, though it would appear without enough proof to charge or convict anyone with, and I can certainly think of one rather prominent republican spokesperson who vocally expressed an opinion that the police ought to continue their efforts to investigate and prosecute (these) historic crimes despite the difficulty of doing so...