You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
I thought these two monsters were being shipped off to Australia with new identities? Now it seems at least one of them is still here and working amongst us. Now, due to some sort of "breach of terms of release" he's back inside.
My question is, if he was given a new identity etc etc, who (and how) did anyone know to keep an eye on him and what sort of things constituted a breach. Did his employer know who he really was for instance? And if so - what sort of person agrees to give someone like that a job? Do large amounts of tax payers cash, in the form of "employer incentives" change hands in these situations?
I see on the news they still report that the killers battered James to death, neglecting to mention that they tortured him first.
I dare say very few people (excluding the media) know who they are. His employer almost defiantly would not know as you'd never take the risk of employing him.
if he was given a new identity etc etc, who (and how) did anyone know to keep an eye on him
Well he was released under licence with the new identity to a place of residency chosen by the state. we - the state Parole offices I assume took him there and he would be required to liase - daily initially with him. He was probably tagged or otherwise monitored but he is not going to run is he as I expect he is sh1t scared of being discovered. I doubt anyone other than the parole officer is aware of the true identity of him. I doubt the employer is informed and I am sure the parole office did the risk assesments re location, work etc. I doubt the prison authorities have been informed either as to who he is either.
You would assume that someone monitors a bloke who is out on parole. He must have a probation/parole officer.
The intelligence services presumably know who he is.
I assume that his family shouldn't know where he is.
I expect that he doesn't have a pleasant existence (extreme fear of discovery?)and that may, or may not be, a good thing.
I see on the news they still report that the killers battered James to death, neglecting to mention that they tortured him first.
A long shot, but that maybe because the media are being sensitive to Jamie's family. Can't be easy to see this all over the news again without the constant reminder (no that they need reminding) that he was tortured as well. Maybe I'm being naive.
why are people so obsessed with this case and these killers?
how many civilians children babies etc have been killed in afgahnistan, iraq etc by british and coalition forces
yet this one death seems to preoccupy so many people
I can see this thread being a long-runner, or getting closed. Either way, anyone fancy a biccie?
I am fascinated by the psychological assessment here, how does an individual so damaged as a child that they can torture and kill ever prove they are safe to be released into the community? Or did these two boys through the accident of their upbringing not know any better (hard to believe they didn't know what they were doing was wrong, just like the recent tortue case involving children)? Either way to think that a child should spend his whole life behind bars is horrendous but if that is the only way to ensure they do not re-offend then so be it. Whichever way you look at it the whole thing is tragic for all concerned.
why are people so obsessed with this case and these killers?how many civilians children babies etc have been killed in afgahnistan, iraq etc by british and coalition forces
yet this one death seems to preoccupy so many people
because it was so horrific and unbelievable at the time, and still is - it wasn't adults who did it, but 10 year old children. - I still get a knot in my stomach and feel sick when i think about what they did and the fear that little boy went through before they left him for dead
I'm a forgiving person, but not in this case I'm afraid
kimbers are you just being an idiot or can you really not see the difference between two 10 years olds torturing and murdering a 2 year old and children being killed in a war zone. Both tragic but obvioulsy totally different.
why are people so obsessed with this case and these killers?
Are they? they're in the news again so people are bound to talk.
how many civilians children babies etc have been killed in afgahnistan, iraq etc by british and coalition forces
I don't know, how many?
Two wrongs don't make a right. Just becasue one bad thing happens, doesn't mean that you cannot concern yourself with something else. They're no mutually exclusive.
Some of you might find this interesting (if you've not already seen it).
[url] http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/people/highlights/001109_child.shtml [/url]
Some interesting 'facts' about Venables since he was released in 2001 - seems he's been a bit of a naughty boy - http://www.mirror.co.uk/2010/03/04/james-bulger-s-killer-jon-venables-transformed-into-cokehead-with-raging-temper-after-jail-release-115875-22083895/
[i]It’s going to be very difficult for them because, rightly or wrongly, they are going to be released having been deprived of all normal things that children in their formative years experience – dating, going to football matches and pop concerts. I describe them as battery hens and I think that when they come out and have to face normal things in life, I don’t think that they are going to find it easy to cope…[/i]
At least the have the option of 'facing the normal things in life', unfortunately the 2 year old child they murdered does not.
Only did 9 years and it would seem have been having a great time at clubs and festivals since.
I can't say I'm sorry to see him locked up.
Some interesting 'facts' about Venables since he was released in 2001 - seems he's been a bit of a naughty boy
Given that noone outside a select few people know who he is, I wouldn't be suprised to discover that that Mirror article is a load of old bollocks.
ok let me rephrase that
50 children a year are killed in this country
most of the time by their parents,i dont know details but im sure the deaths can be equally horrific, why no hysteria when they are paroled ?
and gary m so its not worth worrying about tragic deaths lets say 1000 children in iraq but you are more upset by 1 death in the uk at the hands of children, i want to know why?
ill probably get into trouble for posting this but its quite possible your tax money payed for the bomb that did this....
[url= 
]Click for disturbing war image - {Mod}[/url]
infact it was done in your name to secure petrol for your car
Ah kimbers. So a slap on the wrist and let them carry on?
Naughty torturers but boys will be boys eh?
And where has gary m say he approves of iraqi deaths? WTF is your problem?If you're not happy with the wars, use your vote to tell the labour party as much. I'm going to.
[i]and gary m so its not worth worrying about tragic deaths[/i] Where did I say that. I can't believe that you don't understand why people would be shocked at two 10 year olds murdering another child. You don't seem to grasp the fact that it's not only the murder of the child that is so shocking but that's it's the age of the murderers.
You seem to be under the impression that you can only feel compassion for one event at a time. You're coming across as a bit of an idiot.
50 children a year are killed in this country most of the time by their parents,i dont know details but im sure the deaths can be equally horrific, why no hysteria when they are paroled ?
But do they get longer than the Bulger killers did?
Anyway, they were 10 and I can't judge them as never knew them or how they are now. Many journos do know about them though and are able to find out what they're up to.
i think the biggest mistake the authorities made was letting it be known that the guy has been recalled.
much better to do their job without causing this mass-hysteria. we would have been none-the-wiser. many of you don't give the Bulger case a second thought on a day-to-day basis.
are any of us better off for knowing now what we didn't know last week?
Kimbers, well said.
backhander - MemberAh kimbers. So a slap on the wrist and let them carry on?
Naughty torturers but boys will be boys eh?
And where has gary m say he approves of iraqi deaths? WTF is your problem?If you're not happy with the wars, use your vote to tell the labour party as much. I'm going to.
he probably did. and besides, it's all a bit late now, isn't it?
my problem is the hysteria around this case, whipped up by the media and spilling over on here - virtual frothing at the mouth and forum lynchmobs make me feel uneasy i guess
i agree with the tone of ropers article
(and i do not believe a slap on the wrist is enough in this case)
[i]how many civilians children babies etc have been killed in afgahnistan, iraq etc by british and coalition forces
yet this one death seems to preoccupy so many people[/i]
I'm sure coalition forces go round looking for babies to kill everyday. Any idea how many civilians have been treated by coalition forces for non war related issues?
Thats pretty awful kimbers, but the point is made.
[i] 
[/i]
No doubt this guy has evil on his mind eh?
esselgruntfuttock, ever heard of propaganda?
I'm not saying that the soldier [i]is[/i] evil btw, but that pic screams invasion justification.
I tend to agree with what M6TTF said....
IMHO, its because the thought of purposely torturing a baby is so abhorrent to us and absolute intent to cause maximum suffering before death to an infant so defenseless is very disturbing.
I'm not saying that the killing of children in iraqistan is justifiable but that (even when negligent) it is never done with the malice and intent shown by these little....boys (been told off for evading swear filter recently).
I am guessing that anyone in their mid 20's with a Liverpool accent - who has just arrived in the local prison - should be feeling fairly nervous at the moment.
"I am guessing that anyone in their mid 20's with a Liverpool accent - who has just arrived in the local prison - should be feeling fairly nervous at the moment."
So half of Merseyside then......
What I find quite interesting is that as Venables was considered the less evil and easily led (according to the experts) could, after being given years of expert counseling and poncy rehabilitation turn out to be a drug abuser with an extremely violent temper (allegedly) So much for therapy!
At least a million children dead in Iraq and afghanistan since Gulf war one as a direct result. American soldiers have been prosecuted for the rape and murder of a child
Not that that is at all relevant.
Venables and Thompson were two badly damaged children themselves. Their trial was a farce. Their treatment outrageous and is a stain on the charectar of this country.
NO other civilised country treats children like this that they have to live in fear of a lynch mob the rest of their lives and treats damaged children as criminals. compare the [url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/correspondent/803151.stm ]Silje Redergard [/url] case for example.
To answer the OP
My question is, if he was given a new identity etc etc, who (and how) did anyone know to keep an eye on him and what sort of things constituted a breach.
Probation service were keeping a very close eye on him and as discussed on a previous thread on this the breach could be anything from a pattern of behaviour to petty crime to serious crime to a single incident of breaching conditions. We simply don't know.
Did his employer know who he really was for instance?
No they didn't.
Do large amounts of tax payers cash, in the form of "employer incentives" change hands in these situations?
No
The bottom line is that our countries obsession with criminalising and demonising children led to these boys names being released and thus to the situation where they have to be protected from the lynch mobs by the use of false identities.
Everyone deserves a chance of rehabilittation and redemption
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/mar/03/erwin-james-jon-venables
[i]IMHO, its because the thought of purposely torturing a baby is so abhorrent to us and absolute intent to cause maximum suffering before death to an infant so defenseless is very disturbing[/i]
True. What seems odd is that we seem to find it so much more abhorrent when done by a child, who will normally have a less developed sense of right and wrong, than when done by an adult.
Good reporting from the mirror...what on earth does this mean?
"Our source said that in one incident outside a night club he got into a row with the boyfriend of a reveller’s girlfriend."
The bottom line is that our countries obsession with criminalising and demonising children led to these boys names being released and thus to the situation where they have to be protected from the lynch mobs by the use of false identities.
and thus even more money has to be spent on providing for their new lives, which in turn makes the lynch mob even angrier........
its all gone very brass eye
Surely - his colleagues are going to put two and two together and start coming out of the woodwork with pics etc especially with facilities like facebook etc to spread the word.
If someone I worked with was mid 20's scouse and lived in the North of England and all of a sudden didnt work with me anymore id be suspicious.
I thought Thompson was the one who was the quieter of the two and has gone on to show remorse including settling into a relationship with his male partner.
Dreadful journalism by the guardian as usual.
most of the time by their parents
There's your answer, the average parent (and TVnews watcher, newspaper buyer, internet browser) knows theyr not a killer, or if they are, in such a small diplorable minority that the mass media doesnt cater for them.
As a result "parents killed kid" isn't as newsworthy as "stranger kills kid".
It's probably the 'unknown' that the public can't come to terms with. You can't help feel that there's a sense of the getting away with it. I don't know? The Sutcliffes and West are all banged up and the worlds a happy place. There must be a reason apart from the ages that keeps this case going.
I think I need to hug my 3yo after seeing the grainy images of them leading Jamie away again.
There must be a reason apart from the ages that keeps this case going.
it sells papers?
TSk. Everyone knows its Hora
Its reverse psychology. Give him the identity of someone with verbal diarrhea who's pathologically pre-determined to try and attract as much attention to himself as possible. Accessorise him with a yappy gay dog. Nobody would ever suspect.
Sorry for letting the cat out of the bag Hora
doesnt hora hate scousers?
im married to one, so i cant be
(if thats what you were implying)
I thought Thompson was the one who was the quieter of the two and has gone on to show remorse including settling into a relationship with his male partner.
So being a manbitch is showing remorse?!
I thought Thompson was the one who was the quieter of the two and has gone on to show remorse including settling into a relationship with his male partner.
So being a manbitch is showing remorse?!
I meant he appears to have stability.....
So being a manbitch is showing remorse?!
Your CoE aren't you?
[url= http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/vicars-back-gay-marriage-if-they-can-read-out-the-bit-about-killing-them-201003042525/ ]Daily Mash[/url]
Nope, just fairly nasty... 😛
True. What seems odd is that we seem to find it so much more abhorrent when done by a child, who will normally have a less developed sense of right and wrong, than when done by an adult.
I think it’s because we see children as ‘innocents’ – so when a child commits a horrific offence, people don’t understand how such a thing is possible, given it’s so far outside the norm. And it leads people to think, “If they’re capable of such monstrous actions at such a young age, what sort of adults will they be?”
I think I need to hug my 3yo after seeing the grainy images of them leading Jamie away again.
snap - wells me up everytime...
I hate this case, it causes me aggro everytime it's on the news.
Me, I don't think they should have been sent to prison forever and a day. I actually believe that actions you take aged 10 shouldn't be held against you for the rest of your life. Aged 10 I seriously tried to derail a train. Just wanted to see what would happen, didn't realise all the pain my actions would cause.
The missus on the other hand thinks they should be sent to prison for life and life should mean life. Can't see my viewpoint at all and it comes up everytime they're in the news...
The irony is that the knee jerk, life = life, vigilante, flog 'em and hang 'em brigade are directly responsible for them receiving the sentences that they did.
The lynch mobs outside the court (Preston Crown Court) were disgusting. The hysterical, propagandist media reporting was designed to whip up a frenzy. Added to this, Michael Howard the Home Secretary at the time, instructed the court to jail the boys indefinitely at his discretion. An unlawful order as the Home Secretary does not have the authority to dictate to the Judiciary.
The case was subsequently taken to the European Court Of Human Rights on the basis that it was impossible for the boys to have had a fair trial.
i think rockitman has a point
demonising these children is the easiest way of dealing with the crime
as children we all did thing we werent proud of, i remember pushing a kid i didnt like in a load of stinging nettles, killing ants etc
you add up all the petty incidents up and you (subconciously) realise that all of us have the potential to do 'evil'
of course if these 2 killers are subhuman scum then its easier to dissosciate yourself from their actions
The missus on the other hand thinks they should be sent to prison for life and life should mean life. Can't see my viewpoint at all and it comes up everytime they're in the news...
I have the same arguments with my missus !! We have an agreement not to talk about it now. It was a terrible crime, but for once I agree with Gordon Brown !! Let the criminal justice department get on with the job their paid to do. I'm a bit of a " hanger and flogger " but with 10yr old boys you have to try.
yip kimbers with you on that.
the tone of the op makes me want to puke.
poor upbringing - yet the parents weren't held accountable - the whole system needs an overhaul.... the parents should be held accountable for the little f*CKers actions
So they should serve time for their child's actions....ridiculous.
People choose their own course of action.
A ten yr old?
"Let the criminal justice department get on with the job their paid to do"
Yep fully agree. If the due process of the law and criminal justice system had been allowed to have been followed at the initial trial then the boys would probably be serving much harsher sentences.
I try to refrain from commenting on the facts of what these boys did, as I struggle to comprehend the enormity of it.
Jackson - harsher than life?
What on earth do you mean anyway - the judicial system set a tarrif and politicians tried to overturn it.
Yes and the meddling of the politicians, spurred on by media and public out cry meant that there was a case to take to the ECHR because they couldn't have had a fair trial.
They are not serving life now are they? This is because the ECHR over ruled our Judiciary and Home secretary.
If lawful due process had been followed there would have been no recourse to refer the case to the ECHR.
They are serving life - thats why Venables has been recalled. The EC actually overruled the political interference not the judiciary
Without political interference it would not have gone into an adult court and they would have been treated as sick children not evil adults
They actually overruled it all. They are not serving life imprisonment. (which is what many people, of the hang 'em, flog 'em persuasion wanted to see) - not me by the way. I actually think that they were dealt with fairly in the end.
Is I said previously:
If lawful due process had been followed there would have been no recourse to refer the case to the ECHR.
No need to deliberately misunderstand my point in a transparent attemp to 'prove' your knowledge of the case 😉
<ramble>
You cannot say with one sentence: "people are sheep" and then say: "People choose their own course of action" without being contradictory.
If we are soul-less automatons, then our actions are guided entirely by our genes and experiences. Were those boys "programmed" too commit sadistic acts? And yet we feel as if we choose our actions and we believe they "chose" to be evil.
So we take a path between fate and free-will: those boys had a terrible upbringing so we can partially blame the parents, though they escaped prosecution. But those boys' hands committed the crime so they are punished.
</ramble>
you add up all the petty incidents up and you (subconciously) realise that all of us have the potential to do 'evil'of course if these 2 killers are subhuman scum then its easier to dissosciate yourself from their actions
All children can be right little Bas*ards, we now as adults know that. Its simply about parents responsibility to teach right from wrong. Of course it depends on what parents were taught as Children...if at all.
I dread to think what that disgusting pack of wolves who waited outside the court when the 2 lads were sentenced would have done if they had caught them. They were far worse than the 2 lads because they were 'adults' and knew what they were doing.
Virtually all we know about this case is from the media, and we should [i]never[/i] forget that they aren't giving us this info from the goodness of their hearts, they only print what sells and we all know the more it makes 'angry of Tonbridge Wells' spit out their Early Grey and shout [i]this is unbeleivable[/i] the more money it makes
There is far more to this story than we were led to believe. Very interesting the way the Norweigens handled a similiar case
Just all dreadfully sad - so many lives ruined in all three families Bulger, Venables and Thompson. My little boy is 2 now and I get exactly the same feeling as those above, just need to check he's safe and give him a cuddle.
I started as a PE teacher in an all boys school in Batley; working class, racial tension, lot of anger and hatred in the community. I also worked for the Youth Offending Team in Dewsbury at the same time, and saw a fair few of my pupils in both environments. I would agree that, with restorative justice programmes and the hard work of councellors, YOT teams, etc, that 90% of young folk that offend can be re-integrated into society as a neutral/positive influence or contributor.
Having said that, there is a tiny minority of genuinely frightening children out there who start at a lower level of violence and start to excel at it. A boy at my school started off by breaking into the local petting zoo and cutting all the wings and legs off of the ducks and rabbits. He filmed it with his mobile and showed his fellow pupils. I believe he went away recently for some other abhorent crime.
I believe in rehabilitation, but sadly the success rate is lower than you'd hope...
Tunbridge Wells.
Tonbridge is far less classy... 😉
Everyone deserves a chance of rehabilittation and redemption
TJ try just try and explane your thoughts to the parents of Jamie Bulger see how far that gets you.
Sorry but your soft attitude to society like a disease to the folk of this country who want to live in a safe society, where there kids can go out and play without being in fear of there safety ( bit like we could as kids)
Read "the Jigsaw Man" then come back
so saladdodger is it not safe for kids now?
or are you just sheepishly following the lead of media hysteria trying to sell papers
On average, 67 children in England and Wales are killed at the hands of another person every year. In 2005/2006, 55 children were killed at the hands of another person in England and Wales.
Coleman, K. et al (2007) London: Home Office.
While the number of child homicides fluctuates each year, the overall child homicide rate in England and Wales has remained broadly similar since the 1970s.
Creighton and Tissier (2003) Child killings in England and Wales. London: NSPCC Research briefing
TJ try just try and explane your thoughts to the parents of Jamie Bulger see how far that gets you.
And that is precisely the reason for all of this hate filled hysteria.
People cannot accept that people (let alone childre)n are capable of such things, as a result people cannot rationalise these issues, look at the animal kingdom when it comes down to it (infanticide is not uncommon) and when it comes down to it the base levels that our brains operate on are not that dissimilar.
Sadly stuff like this happens and our judiciary have rules and laws in place that are used to establish criminal responsibility, these boys at 10 were below that level wether you like it or not.
The media is hugely responsible for all of this, without the media it would be a very sad event that hurt several families so there lives changed, why the entire country seems to need to react is beyond me, same as the diana crap that happened, get a grip people there are over 6 billion people on this planet and bad things happen
Oh sod, looks like me and you are on the same side as usual Kimbers, see you on the uplift
No Kimbers I am not saying that it is not safe for kids now, What I am saying is that parents do not feel that it is right / safe to let there kids out.
Yes the media is very fast in this age compared to when I was a kid in the 60's and back then perhaps ignorance was bliss because news did not travel
Are you a parent ???
BTW I am a fan of a eye for a eye type of justice
Read Jigsaw Man
will this nice weather hold out long enough to take off the swamp things?
Fingers crossed, but will see
TJ try just try and explane your thoughts to the parents of Jamie Bulger see how far that gets you.
I don't doubt for a minute that the reopening of all this in the sordid media frenzy that we are seeing is distressing for them.
However, not rehabilitating these two does nothing to bring James back or ease their pain in any way either, nothing can do that, so, for the good of society it must always be the attempted.
What bothers me most is why so many people somehow feel they should know why he's been recalled yet are seemingly completely unable to explain why they should know and what good it will do them or the Bulger family to know.
best we check the weather forcast
unfortunatly it is after the news 😉
ok ill read it,
no not a parent maybe my views will change when i am but i still dont think ill want death penalty or locking up of 10 yr old children till they die, whatever their crime