[Closed] Jailed for Facebook Syria terror posts

Any link? If that's the full extent of her "crime" I find it both unjust and provocation of the Muslim community. back to H block but for Muslims rather than Catholics.

Should be a good break for the kids though, no Jihad for them for at least a couple of years until she is out.

It doesn't sit comfortably with me that Britain is jailing someone for acts which appear to be little more than her right to free speech.

So why can I be jailed for inciting racial hatred if I was to promote detroying mosques, surely that is just free speech?

I think you need to learn what inciting means
She as not just saying what she thought she was encouraging other to do what she thought [ when to do this was illegal and what she promoted was illegal]

If I was for example to suggest we murder a certain person , explain the method to do this and then send/promote material to do this and then try to encourage folk to do it then , in your view, I am guilty of no crime

I disagree.

She also passed details to an undercover policeman of how to enter Syria in order to fight for ISIS/Extremist groups. She admitted promoting terrorism in Syria, thats a criminal offence to do so from the UK even if the place you are encouraging those actions in is in another country

has anyone seen a decent summary of the case?

When I was on jury service, I learned that threatening to kill somebody is quite a serious criminal offence.... even if it's indirect, eg: "you'd better make sure your life insurance is paid up to-date sonny-jim!".

So it seems reasonable that encouraging others (including you own children) to become Jihadists, is also an offence. If she had just re-posted a few inflammatory articles you could perhaps write it off to free speech, but this seems rather more than that.

Sorry to start a love in with Junkyard, but I don't see why anybody would have a problem with this. Get them taps on lads, we're gonna have a robust exchange of opinions!

Having heard the interview with her by the BBC that was carried out after she pleaded guilty she deserves to be locked up.

I doubt her views will change but hopefully she'll be more careful about expressing them and telling other people to blow themselves up.

It's not so much the verdict as the sentence I'm uncomfortable with. Five years! I feel three months in an open de-tox/anti-brainwashing centre would be more appropriate. Or the offer to emigrate to a country where her views would be considered moderate. Would Saudi take her?

Actually, never mind....

Small detail but in the picture I saw of her, she's wearing a camo headband. I don't think that's normal for women.

She's definitely more committed than the Muslim woman who was caught listening to her iPod while on jury duty and who claimed that the court being a Christian court, it had no relevance to her. She was just an idiot.

Would Saudi take her?

1) Saudi regime not big fans of women with opinions

2) Saudi regime not big fans of ISIS, as ISIS hopes to overthrow it

Some more quotes from her here, seems she did an interview with newsnight.

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/dec/11/mother-jailed-promoting-terrorism-facebook ]Guardian[/url]

So she dreamed of sending her 8 year boy to fight, got him and her 2 year old to pose with various weapons, stated that she was going to travel to syria with at least one of her children and published a guide on how to prepare young children for jihad.
If this isn't grounds for social services to step in, I don't know what is.
"If we could we wouldn’t live in Britain. My passport has been taken away from me, Britain is the last place I would want to live in and I’m sure that you know the majority of people with my mindset are actually behind bars because they don’t want to stay in Britain.”
following her release, she should be given her wish.

I was thinking exactly that but thought if I post it I will get flamed. I cannot think of a country which would admit her, Syria won't and I suspect neither would Iran. If it where possible to find a country to take her I'd gladly see her citizenship removed and her sent elsewhere

She's clearly nuts (and hence very dangerous) turning up to court with the camouflage head scarf under her burka (which co-incidently is illegal in France)

[i]She's clearly nuts[/i]

perhaps we should offer treatment and understanding of someone who isn't in control of their emotions and opinions then?

[i]which co-incidently is illegal in France[/i]

I think that's probably more indicative of French intolerance to difference than something to criticise the people who choose to wear it and not behave in a way that's deemed illegal in the UK?

nobody remember when gerry adams voice was dubbed? 😆 you only have the freedom of speech to a point, this can be taken away at any time. There's loads of exceptions in UK law. I agree it's a ridiculous state of affairs.

Surely she would be welcomed with open arms in any IS controlled area?

Surely she would be welcomed with open arms in any IS controlled area?

perhaps we should offer treatment and understanding of someone who isn't in control of their emotions and opinions then?

I think that's probably more indicative of French intolerance to difference than something to criticise the people who choose to wear it and not behave in a way that's deemed illegal in the UK?

Yes but sadly they don't give out passports or citizenship so we cannot remove her British one and just send her there

"If we could we wouldn’t live in Britain. My passport has been taken away from me, Britain is the last place I would want to live in and I’m sure that you know the majority of people with my mindset are actually behind bars because they don’t want to stay in Britain.”

I'm generally pretty liberal, but if you don't want to live in Britain, abide by uk laws and be tolerant etc and want to live in a violent 'Islamic state' which isnt really true to Islamic belief then I think we should assist. Passport cancelled, citizenship revoked, parachute issued, booted out the back of a C130 over ISIS controlled territory and you can take you chances with the locals and the airstrikes.

I'm pretty liberal too. If you don't want to live here, er... don't.

There is no way the woman would have been given over five years in France. So which country is more tolerant?

one_happy_hippy

I'm generally pretty liberal, but if you don't want to live in Britain, abide by uk laws and be tolerant etc and want to live in a violent 'Islamic state' which isnt really true to Islamic belief then I think we should assist. Passport cancelled, citizenship revoked, parachute issued, booted out the back of a C130 over ISIS controlled territory and you can take you chances with the locals and the airstrikes.

And what would you do with her son? Would you be able to do the booting?

[quote=Edukator said]There is no way the woman would have been given over five years in France. So which country is more tolerant?

Would she be allowed to wear the veil in France ?

Let her live in France, then.

In court no.

And rightly so IMO. Facial expression and body language are important to the jury.

We've had the Burka debate and you know my view; I'm against people covering their face in public whether it's with a helmet, a hoodie and scarf, a mask or whatever. Some activities and weather conditions justify covering your face, religious conviction does not. The French state is secular, that means no signs of religious belonging in public institutions. My son would be sent home from school if he wore a T-shirt with a picture of Christ on for example (though he'd probably just be asked to turn it inside-out).

France is a pretty tolerant place, the concept of "citizen's arrest" doesn't exist so you don't go around enforcing the law yourself in vigilante style. The Vichy legacy means people are reticent to denounce crime unless they feel people are in danger. Gendarmes and police are very good at standing around ignoring things that might be illegal but aren't doing anyone any harm. So some local women wear the Burka when shopping and nobody takes any notice.

It doesn't sit comfortably with me that Britain is jailing someone for acts which appear to be little more than her right to free speech.

'Free speech'. Good innit?
How long do you think we'd have this entitlement for if her & her 'cause' (or what ever the **** it is, got a hold over here? (like it hasn't already)
Can't believe the OP thinks this is just free speech & nothing more sinister, longer term.

yeah, it's all that citizens arresting that makes the UK such an intolerant place. I was arrested six times on the way to the airport last time, it was a nightmare... 🙄

[quote=Edukator said]In court no.
And rightly so IMO. Facial expression and body language are important to the jury.

Wearing the veil is only banned in courts ? I thought it was wider than that.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28106900

I was arrested six times on the way to the airport last time, it was a nightmare

You asked if she would be allowed to wear the veil in France, Allthepies. I don't know what you consider the veil to be. Your own link makes the distinction between thngs banned in state institutions such as the head scarf and big crosses, and things banned in any public place i.e.face covering. Read your own link and work it out.

As I've already said, the law is one thing and enforcement is another. Cover your face, go for a walk and see what happens - nothing. You're more likely to be stopped on the way into a French supermarket with a hoodie and scarf than a burka. However try to get into a state school with either and you'll fail.

The ruling refers to a full face veil in a public place from a quick scan of the BBC article.

Whether that's rigidly enforced is a moot point. If it's French law then one day you might be OK, the next day you might not. By the letter of the law it's not permitted is my understanding.

I fail to see what you don't understand? allthepies. There's nothing wrong with my posts and there's nothing wrong with the BBC article which it might be worth reading rather than scanning.

Coming back to the topic, five years in jail is not helpful IMO. The Danish approach of [url= http://www.lexpress.fr/actualite/societe/les-centres-de-deradicalisation-pour-djihadistes-une-bonne-solution_1623195.html ]déradicalisation[/url] gets my support.

OK, to clarify things.

1. Is it legal and permitted to wear a full face veil in public in France ?

2. Does this count as a full face veil ?

[img] [/img]

3. Is wearing such a veil legal and permitted in the UK ?

is this going to be one of those threads in which edukator bangs on about how awesome France is and how terrible the UK is, and makes a whole bunch of incorrect claims about the differences between French and UK law?

I was arrested six times on the way to the airport last time, it was a nightmare

That one citizen really hates you. Do they post on here?

Trebuchet to the middle east to her fellow muslimist nutters, job done 🙂

No this is going to be a thread in which Konabunny posts nonsense such as

I was arrested six times on the way to the airport last time, it was a nightmare

And Allthepies repeatedly asks a question I've already answered and his own link gives an excellent explanation to.

Very much on topic. I consider a sentence of over five years for theis woman to be unnecessary, provocative and inappropriate, and have suggested a deradicalisation programme similar to that set up by the Danes. Any comments on that?

I was hoping it was the one where he tells us how racist Leicester was in the 70's as a teacher.

To the OP,

There’s no such thing as unqualified ‘freedom of speech’. That is to say you are free to say what you want as long as it doesn’t engage the law.

Khan incited terrorism. That’s not a good thing. The consensus rejects this as acceptable behaviour in the UK.

I don’t know there’s a point. Maybe you don’t understand the law? Perhaps also, you underestimate the power of social media?

Your first page post made it clear that you agreed with the guilty verdict and made no comment on the punishment, Junkyard. Do you agree with me that a five-year sentence is excessive and a better alternative would be a deradicalisation programme. Although I'd like to see emigration as another alternative I agree with those on the thread who posted reservations because no country would want her.

Do you agree with me that a five-year sentence is excessive and a better alternative would be a deradicalisation programme

Can't believe the OP thinks this is just free speech & nothing more sinister, longer term

Well, I'm in two minds. There is no doubt there is a need to act in situations where the words or behaviour is such that there is a genuine threat. However, there is also a need to tolerate words or behaviour that, whilst unsavory to the majority, is unlikely to result in any significant event occurring.

Without having sat through the evidence makes it's difficult to be certain, but it on balance I feel it leans more towards the latter than the former. However, 5 years 3 months is a significant sentence so maybe there is more to it that we realise.

I hadn't intended it to be a discussion regarding radical Islam which I agree is very much a threat to the UK; more really to sound out where people feel the boundaries of free speech are.

Rich.

will a prison sentence do any good? sounds like she needs psychological help to me! will she just be dumped in prison and free to spread her ideas/mix with like minded types?
fascinating article here[url= http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/11/-sp-isis-the-inside-story ]
If there was no American prison in Iraq, there would be no IS now. Bucca was a factory. It made us all. It built our ideology.[/url]

sometimes governments seem unable to grasp that their methods are often counterproductive, look at Israels increasingly brutal treatment of palestinians further perpetuating violence

To the OP,

She said that when she talks about jihad she does not mean killing innocent people, [b]but people who are a threat to her religion.[/b]

Chilling - It’s clear from what’s been reported*, Khan encouraged violence.

Here’s the law – look at the sections/para’s and from your understanding of the reporting, tick the ones that she’s contravened.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/11/section/2

Calling people to commit human atrocities is serious. The sentence must reflect that - to protect and dissuade.

* It will be a matter of public record.

will a prison sentence do any good? sounds like she needs psychological help to me! will she just be dumped in prison and free to spread her ideas/mix with like minded types?

No this is going to be a thread in which Konabunny posts nonsense such as...

and on that note, you might want to look at article 73 of the (French) penal procedure code, which provides for...citizens arrests: http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCodeArticle.do?idArticle=LEGIARTI000006575113&cidTexte=LEGITEXT000006071154&dateTexte=20100705&oldAction=rechCodeArticle

The word is "apprehend" and if you read all that you'll have realised that beyond asking someone to accompany you to the police station there's not much you can do here unless you are assisting someone in danger.

Have-a-go heros, vigilantes, inventing your own rules and trying to impose them on everyone one else, thought police, a lack of tolerance, bullying, intimidation... . Go through a typical days posting here and you'll find an example of most. A reflection of UK society.

If you are typical of france then we will find folk who use sound bites to hide their veil [ see what I did there] of intolerance of other cultures and impose their views on them against their will whilst calling others intolerant.

We can find most of those in your posts tbh

Personally I think its right she is being punished, but I'm not sure just throwing her in jail is the best way.
She needs some serious psychological help otherwise she'll be just as mental in 3 years time when she comes out.
Her kids need to be away from her though, before one of them ends up in a suicide vest for real.

And to all the hand-wringing liberals who think she just needs a cuddle - this is a clear case of encouraging/promoting terrorism. Considering what is going on in Syria/Iraq, and the real danger of another attack in the UK, I think we need to go in hard with these people, just to enforce the fact there is absolutely no place for her views in the UK.

I am a hand wringing liberal I do not believe we should attempt some sort of deradradicalisation reprogramming nor do we have the right to treat her as mad because of her religious beliefs . where would one stop if it was viewed as appropriate for the law to seek to change peoples religious belief structures by compulsion . so in this case I am left with the view she has chosen to adopt beliefs that stand opposed to our free society has actively sought to advance and encourage terrorism and the sentence is from my hand wringing liberal view point too short.

You are not allowed to wear the full face viel anywhere in France, not even walking down the street. The viel she wore to court is full face. I'm pretty sure you can't even wear a headscarf as a teacher in France.

@kimbers that piece about the U.S. prison in Afgan is pure propaganda from ISIS. it's just an attempt to appear unbowed by the treatment they received.

Just to be clear as am not advocating a French style ban just pointing out we in the UK are much more tolerant

The word is "apprehend" and if you read all that you'll have realised that beyond asking someone to accompany you to the police station there's not much you can do here unless you are assisting someone in danger.

Have-a-go heros, vigilantes, inventing your own rules and trying to impose them on everyone one else, thought police, a lack of tolerance, bullying, intimidation... . Go through a typical days posting here and you'll find an example of most. A reflection of UK society.

Tolerant Jambalaya. You personally have been calling for another invasion of Iraq for months.

Read further through your own link Konabunny and you'll find that even the use of very light force puts the apprehender in the wrong. It would be nice if you remained polite in these debates.

Whoever wins set the rules ...

🙄

@edukator I said we as in the UK. On the burkah I am ok with it on the basis it's a religious belief. I do have concerns that it oppresses women as I suspect in many cases it isn't a personal choice but an order from their husbands. As I live and work in London I see them on the streets every day.

I cannot decide which is worse your ignorance or your apparent racism
What an outrageous and absurd view to have 🙄
Is the woman we are discussing ordered to by her husband
What a daft statement to make

Read further through your own link Konabunny and you'll find that even the use of very light force puts the apprehender in the wrong. It would be nice if you remained polite in these debates.

tell us some more great truths about the differences between UK and French law! you're 0 for 2 so far. I'm sure you can do the hat trick.

allthepies - Member

2. Does this count as a full face veil ?

Look at that slag, she's got her eyes out and everything!

Junkyard - lazarus

Is the woman we are discussing ordered to by her husband
What a daft statement to make

It is daft.
The fear generated by behaving in a non-Islamic way is down to the society, not the individual.
From my experience, obviously.
I know plenty of Muslims that will, as one example, drink alcohol when alone, but would not dare to do it in front of other Muslims who would equally imbibe when alone.