Well, he's never going to have to decide to have an abortion, so it's pretty easy to have convictions about things that don't affect you.
What a silly thing to say. I have to say, I have very similar views on abortion, although mine are skewed by my own religious beliefs, ie devout atheist.
Abortion is a horrible thing, and it IS, whether you like it or not, the destruction of a human life. We live in a world where society has made it legal for women to make that choice, but it doesn't suddenly make abortion a nice thing!
In most cases, it's deemed to be "the lesser of two evils" (apologies for using a religious metaphor), and I, like Mr Rees Mogg, accept it will continue to happen, whether we like it or not.
I'm actually quite grateful to him for bringing it into the public conversation again - I'd never really given it a great deal of thought...
My knee-jerk reaction is of course that victims of rape should be allowed to abort, but I've never really thought about it on a deeper level. It is still the ending of a human life, and it makes it all the sadder that a woman who has been brutalised physically, mentally and emotionally then has to make a decision that may well haunt her longer after the scars of her rape have faded.
One thing I admire greatly about JRM is his clarity of thought and his eloquence and succinctness when discussing complex subjects. So I find his ability to discuss such issues both refreshing and, for me at least, quite thought provoking.
It's when someone starts to justify the rape or incest that we have a problem, eloquently explaining why he finds the termination solution abhorrent is not a problem at all, and those that seek to criticise him because of it merely demonstrate how small-minded they in fact are.
Conclude what you will and react as you please - that's your prerogative. No one is forcing you to respond to ninfan or anyone else. It's your choice and therefore your responsibility.
So the troll bears no responsibility for his actions?
teamhurtmore - Member
Conclude what you will and react as you please - that's your prerogative
I know.
🙂
Yes, but you can't control that. Mods do.
So he is responsibile for his actions?
JRM's "conviction" is based entirely on religious dogma (he has admitted as much), therefore it's an easy decision for him to make (i.e He hasn't had to make a decision). Presumably if the Catholic church changed it's view on abortion, Jacob would have to change his view as well.
Of course abortion is a horrible thing, I made no comment that it wasn't.
Abortion should be imprecise in every case as it can be; to allow for personal thoughts and decision making, personal religious belief and harm to the mother. Legislation has come down to viability and TBH it's as good (or bad) a determination as any. What it shouldn't come down to is some sort of dogma based on en-soulment, or miracles, or a requirement to have a steady supply of future parishioners
ninfan - MemberCite!
How about when in the thread about an innocent woman being murdered by someone driving a car into her, you describing it as a laughing matter?
http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/charlottesville/page/21
It is sad the depths you will stoop to for attention.
JRM's "conviction" is based entirely on religious dogma (he has admitted as much), therefore it's an easy decision for him to make (i.e He hasn't had to make a decision). Presumably if the Catholic church changed it's view on abortion, Jacob would have to change his view as well.
Indeed, I presume he would.
I pointed out earlier the existence of the Roman Catholic Emancipation Act 1829 that allowed Catholics to serve as MP's, its easy in modern times to forget the constitutional derivation of such prohibitions (including those preventing a Catholic monarch) was precisely because of the importance of ensuring that decisions were made in the best interests of, and by and on behalf of, the British people, through the crown, rather than being beholden to the Pope. (The aftermath of Brexit mark one played out over several hundred years)
you describing it as a laughing matter?
See, everyone hates Illinois Nazi's
Of course abortion is a horrible thing, I made no comment that it wasn't.
Wonder where rees-mogg sits on proper sex education and access to contraceptives.
Since one of the things that really irritates me about the anti abortion mob is there is a major overlap between them and those opposed to sex education.
Given he is a religious fundamentalist I would guess he is one of them.
I pointed out earlier the existence of the Roman Catholic Emancipation Act 1829 that allowed Catholics to serve as MP's, its easy in modern times to forget the constitutional derivation of such prohibitions (including those preventing a Catholic monarch) was precisely because of the importance of ensuring that decisions were made in the best interests of
Thats one way of reading it. I would say it is wrong though.
There had been a period of turmoil where each time the monarch changed so did the religion with associated unrest.
looking at the continent it was even worse so a pragmatic decision was taken to settle on one and end the game of musical chairs.
I'm with Binners, I'd love to see him as Tory leader. Mainly because it will keep the bastards out, but also for the fun factor.
thats dangerously close to the mistake everyone made with corbyn!
He's not an evil man, indeed, he comes across as a decent guy. The eternal, internal debate.
He's also not unintelligent, quite amusing ( at least on Fry's show ) and quite personable.
And that's why he's dangerous. I photographed David Cameron a few years ago whilst he dealt with shareholders in a major concern in Yorkshire. He had all the attributes discussed above but then you remember that his policies are reprehensible. Beyond belief.
The ability to come over as a "nice chap" whilst stabbing you in the back isn't a skill I'd want in my bag.
There's a few of them lining up for a tilt at the leadership - Rees-Mogg and Soubry are both doing some well-timed grandstanding.....
He's not an evil man, indeed, he comes across as a decent guy. The eternal, internal debate.He's also not unintelligent, quite amusing ( at least on Fry's show ) and quite personable.
And that's why he's dangerous. I photographed David Cameron a few years ago whilst he dealt with shareholders in a major concern in Yorkshire. He had all the attributes discussed above but then you remember that his policies are reprehensible. Beyond belief.
The ability to come over as a "nice chap" whilst stabbing you in the back isn't a skill I'd want in my bag.
To be fair, given the shit fest that has followed I'm looking back fondly on Cameron and Osborne, as you say at least they had conviction in their small-state beliefs and gave Westminster direction. May, despite calling an election to apparently give her policies a mandate, never actually put forward a manifesto of any note!
[quote=dannyh ]There's a few of them lining up for a tilt at the leadership - Rees-Mogg and Soubry are both doing some well-timed grandstanding.....
Soubry is a hard core remainer.
If she got the job it would be fantastic but also chaos!
"...as you say at least they had conviction in their small-state beliefs and gave Westminster direction".
You've confused yourself - I said nothing of the kind. Easily done in a forum of several hundred people tbf. But I won't be mis-quoted.
thats dangerously close to the mistake everyone made with corbyn!
Corbyn's policies are mainstream social democratic politics, the sort of thing that wouldn't raise an eyebrow in much of Europe. In contrast, JRM is an extremist.
Let's be honest.... can anyone see anything other than the Tory party conference next month dissolving immediately into massively vindictive factional warfare, as they once again go at each other like rats in a sack over the EU?
All the little factions will have their favourite pet candidate, as they all jockey for position to replace the malfunctioning, powerless Maybot?
While Jeremy Corbyn sits back looking at his party which, in comparison, will be a picture of single-minded unity?
Who'd have thunk it eh? It's going to be ****ing brilliant!! 😆
I frequently feel stupid in discussions on this forum - a lack of understanding of UK politics despite my best efforts makes it so.
However, having made the effort to actually meet a few of them, some through work and some through curiosity, it's clear that voting Tory is a vote against humanity.
It's a vote for money, if you already have it. It's a vote for the reaping of money if you don't yet but plan to.
Corbyn's policies are mainstream social democratic politics, the sort of thing that wouldn't raise an eyebrow in much of Europe. In contrast, JRM is an extremist.
Is Ireland not part of Europe then?
...it's clear that voting Tory is a vote against humanity.It's a vote for money, if you already have it. It's a vote for the reaping of money if you don't yet but plan to.
And now we know why you frequently feel stupid.
I feel he is entitled to express his views on Abortion, not that i agree with them. Likewise i am entitled to express my views regarding his voting record in Parliament.
[url= https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/24926/jacob_rees-mogg/north_east_somerset/votes ]He's a bell-end (voting record in Parliament)[/url]
councilof10, yes I still do thanks but at the very least, I have a life, family and people who love me. And also a thinking brain. Can you say the same?
Very much so... Also, I'm utterly bemused at why you'd even ask such a stoopid question!
It's the ultimate snowflake defence; "I haven't a clue what I'm talking about but someone loves me"!!! 🙄
Ah. So we've resorted to "snowflake" have we? Get stuffed.
s'ok, the use of the snowflake insult is a handy proxy for revealing the alt-right supporters.
Alt-right sounds harmless, like a keyboard shortcut.
They are right wing extremists and should be labelled as such.
I know nickc. And at my age, I should know better! But it still brings my heart rate up and tightens my knuckles for better or waur.
the use of the snowflake insult is a handy proxy for revealing the alt-right supporters.
I really enjoyed "An Awesome Wave" but didn't think "This is All Yours" hit the mark - typical second album syndrome. "Relaxer" demonstrates a far more mature sound, but whether or not they enjoy a repeat of their early success remains to be seen.
Seeing actual nazis and the KKK described as alt-right recently was interesting, wasn't it. I think a lot of people realised it's just a rebrand of the old right but apparently that job's now done and they feel comfortable dropping the mask
The irony is that Rees-Mogg's inability to defend his beliefs other than a blind reliance on faith and doctrine is pretty much identical to that used by Isis and other fundamentalists.
councilof10s getting better, yesterday every response also included a free piss-related insult
I've always thought Joe Newman sounded like a whiny cock-bag personally, I can see why you'd like them.
The use of music to advance a right wing ideology is nothing new but it's still pretty pathetic.
Lets start with Wagner shall we?
There's not much in the world so sad as an unloved child who desperately seeks to fulfil himself online.
The irony is that Rees-Mogg's inability to defend his beliefs other than a blind reliance on faith and doctrine
Is his faith not his defensive for his beliefs?
Many people I know just have social media,facebook or fakenews to base their ever changing beliefs on!
councilof10 - Member
It's the ultimate snowflake defence; "I haven't a clue what I'm talking about but someone loves me"!!!
Can you explain what this means?
There's not much in the world so sad as an unloved child who desperately seeks to fulfil himself online.
Or a man of advancing years and poor education whose knuckles tighten and heartrate quickens when he walks headlong into a joke set up by none other than himself...
'twould bring a tear to a glass eye...
Is his faith not his defensive for his beliefs?
Yes. The question is why that justification is accorded special dispensation.
Can you explain what this means?
Really?... Really?? What in the name of all that's holy are you struggling to understand there???
Well, it's a collection of words that don't appear to make sense.
Perhaps you could explain it for me?
Maybe start by explaining what a 'snowflake defence' is?
Honestly coucilof10, if you're going to take the piss, you might let me know first.
Seeing actual nazis and the KKK described as alt-right recently was interesting, wasn't it
wasn't it though. That Prevent have revealed an increasingly active and vigorous right wing threat reminds us all that the fascists are never far below the surface.
Any chance of an answer?
Feel free to include as many question marks as you like.
Yes. The question is why that justification is accorded special dispensation.
But we all know why, its a religion shared by millions of people around the world.
I don't see why the need to "attack" this, this is the answer, he hasn't tied himself up in lies to hide corruption or wrong doing, there are no personal gains from adopting this stance and its not scooby doo and we aren't going to pull a mask of him to reveal some dictator people thought was dead!
"...poor education".
Cheers :-). It was ok thanks. Degree from Aberdeen uni and a further one from Sunderland. Importantly, I enjoyed them both. Lovely to argue online avouth un-provable stuff.
The Sunderland degree is pretty much a given btw. No-one wants to admit to a degree from Sunderland.
Corbyn's policies are mainstream social democratic politics, the sort of thing that wouldn't raise an eyebrow in much of Europe.
How many EU Social Democratic parties have leaving the EU in their manifesto?
"...poor education".
Further leg-pulling based on your previous post. Don't get to tight-knuckled about it old boy... 😉
Ah, the Edinburgh defence.
Care to answer the question 'old boy' or would you prefer to keep trolling?
I don't see why the need to "attack" this
semantics, you call it attacking, others would just say disagree...strongly. It's because it's dogma, it reveals that JRM hasn't given it any proper thought, which is why he finds it easy to suggest that even if the pregnancy is the result of the most awful of crimes against a person, he still hasn't the humility to allow that person to make the decision about whether the pregnancy will proceed, and just apologises for his lack of humanity with a shrug and a mealy mouthed "I'm afraid so, yes" as if he's suggesting that sorry, you will have to do your homework, or wash the dishes, or some other menial task.
millions of people may follow the Catholic church, but many more millions are capable of independent thought, and have realised that there's only really one person who should be deciding whether to have an abortion or not, (hint: it's not the nice south american man in the white pointy hat)
he finds it easy to suggest that even if the pregnancy is the result of the most awful of crimes against a person, he still hasn't the humility to allow that person to make the decision about whether the pregnancy will proceed
Which is identical to your own position 24 weeks later.
Thanks Monsueur Spanner.
Kind of used to trolls. It's a a sad state of affairs when a decent discussion is being tabled and genuine interest is shown.
(and then half your post vanishes ).
But not identical in the 24 weeks preceding that. Which is a massive difference.
I'm happy that Abortion is legal. The morals and ethics of it are clearly and obviously vague to anyone capable of giving it any sort of thought. why is a unborn at one point not a human being, when moments later it can be? I don't know and it's pretty much beyond my pay grade TBH. I'm more certain that the "viability" test that currently determines timing is a better system that "No, under no circumstances can you do this" and furthermore decided that that's the case solely by a gender and group of men that literally have no skin in the game.
It's because it's dogma, it reveals that JRM hasn't given it any proper thought
Your brain works in ever more mysterious ways if you can extrapolate the above from JRM's interview and deliver your findings with a perfectly straight face. I suspect he's given it rather more thought than you and I put together! 🙄
Any chance of an answer sweetie?
Come on, it's your phrase, it should be easy enough to explain it to a simple old chap like me......
His "all life is sacrosanct" dogma doesn't seem to apply in the capital punishment debate.
[quote=councilof10 ]One thing I admire greatly about JRM is his clarity of thought and his eloquence and succinctness when discussing complex subjects.
Ah, so what you admire is his ability to see complex issues as black or white? Though you're probably being overly generous here, it doesn't appear he's put any thought at all into the process of simplifying things in that way, he's just relying on what the voices in is head are telling him.
....as opposed to?
Even the Pope wouldn't think abortion is unacceptable under any circumstances - JRM is an idiot.
Have I got this right?
Councilof10 is aka shibboleth (notorious troll-ban-return-troll-ban cycle)?
Ninfan is aka zulueleven (another repeat troll-ban type)?
Just for a bit of context and all that.......
I'm happy that Abortion is legal. The morals and ethics of it are clearly and obviously vague to anyone capable of giving it any sort of thought. why is a unborn at one point not a human being, when moments later it can be? I don't know and it's pretty much beyond my pay grade TBH. I'm more certain that the "viability" test that currently determines timing is a better system that "No, under no circumstances can you do this" and furthermore decided that that's the case solely by a gender and group of men that literally have no skin in the game.
+1.
Have I got this right?
Yep.
As a catholic with two kids, with said kids going to a catholic school full of families of a similar size of two, not 6-10 kids, I think it's fair to assume that most of 'the faithful' don't strictly adhere to the churches teachings on these matters 😀
He's a fundamentalist, basically
is clarity of thought and his eloquence and succinctness when discussing complex subjects.
I agree with the Pope is not what I call eloquent or complex though I do accept it is succinct.
As an example of "whataboutery" the vatican believed that moving paedophile priests to other areas was a satisfactory punishment rather than letting the courts decide their fate so would that mean the mogg automatically agreed with their decisions rather than formulate his own opinion?.
Binners and his "rhythm" stick - what a thought 😉
Ian Dury eat your heart out
I don't know if it's been posted already, but Suzanne Moore nails it in today's Guardian re Mogg
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/06/jacob-rees-mogg-isnt-old-fashioned-thoroughly-modern-bigot-suzanne-moore ]A Thoroughly Modern Bigot[/url]
nickc - Member
Have I got this right?
Yep.POSTED 56 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST
Why is anyone getting riled up by such obvious trolls, then?
Corbyn's policies are mainstream social democratic politics, the sort of thing that wouldn't raise an eyebrow in much of Europe.
Leaving the EU (as per @out's post above) .. that's the "winner" by a country mile
Renationalising the railways
Decommissioning our nuclear deterrent (even super lefty France isn't proposing that)
National Investment Bank
Supporting Independence Referendums
JRM is an extremist.
No you would find JRM (should he ever bcome leader) not allowing personal views to impact overall Government policy. For example he would not seek to change the law on abortion, he wouod be well aware that the general public nor MPs share his personal view.
councilof10 - memberOne thing I admire greatly about JRM is his clarity of thought and his eloquence and succinctness when discussing complex subjects.
I missed this at the time but tell me in your own words, what do you think succinct means?
Binners and his "rhythm" stick - what a thought
Ian Dury eat your heart out
@tmh so much material, a lefty who needs to change his spots 🙂
Keep your silly ways or throw them out the window
The wisdom of your ways, I've been there and I know
Lots of other ways
How about (change straight for right) for win
Oi!
I want to be [s]straight[/s] right, I want to be [s]straight[/s] right
I'm sick and tired of taking drugs and staying up late.
I want to confirm, I want to conform
I want to be safe and I want to be snug and I want to be warm
I want to be [s]straight[/s]right, I want to be [s]straight[/s] right
I want to create a place of my own [s]in the[/s] and not rely on the welfare state
Brr, gonna be good, brr, gonna be kind
It might be a wrench but think of the stench I'm leaving behind
Supporting Independence Referendums
I thought you were all about democracy and the peoples will. Or does that only apply to "independence" referendums that you personally agree with.
As it was he was clear he was personally against it but unlike our glorious supreme leader wouldnt refuse to discuss it with the SNP.
Why is anyone getting riled up by such obvious trolls, then?
Because I haven't been on here for a while. Too busy working, reading and walking the dog.
Thanks to the gooduns for a good old natter.
[b] Mogmentum Member[/b] Your moggesty the time is right the latest polls show that you are a shoe in for party leader & PM, Finally you can assume your divine right as leader of the nation...
[b]JRM[/b]: I do rather like the sound of that!
[b]Mogmentum member[/b]: .... And steer the good ship Britannia through Brexit, your name forever associated with that glorious ascendence.
[b]JRM[/b]: Ah yes about that we may have oversold that one, just a pip.
[b]Mogmentum member:[/b] Well im sure that someone of your breeding & intellect will show those remoaners what's what
[b]JRM: [/b]Yes erm how about doing an interview then, something that the plebs will lap up, they watch television whilst eating their processed cereals yes, how about that?
[b]Mogmentum member: [/b] Excellent we will get you an interview with Piers Morgan, next to him you will seem even more charming.
[b]JRM:[/b] Oh yes him, well I suppose he is someone that might actually make me seem human. Would you get me the producers, I want to make sure they ask the right questions, of course.
[b]Mogmentum member: [/b]excellent, this is the day we've all been waiting for, soon you will be the Brexit PM!
[b]JRM[/b]: Yes I would have to say something really offensive, to prevent that, such as
'I don't believe women shouldn't have control over their own bodies or that homosexuals arent as deserving of rights as normal people'
....That would ensure that Theresa keeps hold of that particular chalice.
Binners he's not a fundamentalist, he is a hypocrite. This sums it all up:
Jacob Rees-Mogg justifies his opposition to gay marriage and abortion even in cases of rape on the basis of his firmly held Christian beliefs (Report, 7 September). Fine. One can admire people with principles based on profound belief. So where is his opposition to welfare cuts on the grounds that Jesus went out of his way to demonstrate his compassion for the poor and the lame, the lepers and the prostitutes? When Jesus says “blessed are the peacemakers”, how does that fit with Rees-Mogg’s record of consistently voting for military intervention? Where are his statements on debates about executive pay, reminding other MPs that it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven? I’m confused: I thought being a committed Christian meant following the teachings and actions of Jesus, rather than standing at the pick-and-mix counter in a sweetshop, only choosing the fizzy snakes.
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/08/jacob-rees-moggs-right-to-free-speech ]Source[/url]
JRM summed up:
"As he made his stately progress among the locals, he would frequently be followed by boggling younger boys, who already regarded his shtick as ludicrously affected. (Honestly, Moggmentum supporters – how self-loathing are you? I can’t think of anything more beaten than rallying behind someone even 13-year-old Etonians could see through in the 1980s.)"
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/08/jacob-rees-mogg-conservatives-eton-eccentric?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other ]Graun[/url]
😆
Leaving the EU (as per @out's post above) .. that's the "winner" by a country mile
Renationalising the railways
Decommissioning our nuclear deterrent (even super lefty France isn't proposing that)
National Investment Bank
Supporting Independence Referendums
#jambafacts.
1. Corbyn voted to remain.
2. Part Nationalised rail. Like Germany and Denmark? Thanks for proving my point.
3. Labour policy is to retain a nuclear deterrent.
4. Government spending on infrastructure? Yeah, no-one else does that.
5. Independence referendums? You mean like Cameron and Blair did? Real extreme stuff.
No you would find JRM (should he ever bcome leader) not allowing personal views to impact overall Government policy. For example he would not seek to change the law on abortion, he wouod be well aware that the general public nor MPs share his personal view.
As you don't have a crystal ball, you have no idea what JRM would try to do. Regardless, his views on abortion and homosexuality, among other things, are extreme.
This popped up in my twitter feed last night from KT Tunstall in response to The Moggs statement on abortion & gay marriage, quite possibly one of my favourite bitch-slap responses of all time and an accurate somethingion of the man (imho)
"And I say this medievally-minded, discompassionate, morally atrophied **** needs to stay the **** away from important decision-making."
😀
KT Tunstall
Presumably she would have preferred to have been aborted rather than adopted then?
