It's the end of the world as we know it....

It's all about education.
We can but hope that the young generation at school, are learning about this climate crisis and pass on knowledge to their elders, many of whom don't realise that we all need to change.
A lot of the things we need to do are common sense, which is in short supply.

But forcing a change to what is average is rather unpopular.

So don't force them, make the alternatives more attractive. If electric cars were half the price of petrol ones we could change the way people drive in a decade of so if that's what we want. Most people are agnostic about their travel - especially for work and will typically take the cheapest and easiest and most direct route. I'd bet money that if trams and buses were free, the roads would be empty by the end of the first week.

This problem needs more than nudges.

Also the solutions should be fair and not further increase inequality.

Also the solutions should be fair and not further increase inequality.

At best yes I agree, but y'know? At some point you need to make a decision. If you price most folks out of flying it will do more good than the fact that you've further restricted it to the very very rich. I mean, I'd like to own a Canaletto, but I ain't ever gonna, cause I ain't rich enough. If flying becomes the new "buying art" then so be it. Let's just make peace with it and move on

Sorry, wasn't clear, what I meant was even without climate change population growth in marginal areas has out stripped what the environment can sustain. You then have global warming on top that has turbo charged the situation.

So as well as climate change (massive challenge) we continue to have an over population problem in some areas (and over consumption in others).

But that just means that it is something people aspire to. What will make change is that selfish behavior becomes socially unacceptable.

I actively try and make the most of the passive heating from the conservatory during spring/autumn by opening and closing the door during the day so the boiler is only doing the heavy lifting for ~3 months.

I'd seriously consider some kind of heat exchange system for circulating heat. You could test it with two cheap rads from some classifieds, some garden hose, a pump and some automation widgets. Worth a try to see if it helps.

Our house is three storeys, it gets warm on the top floor and cold on the ground floor in winter, and the same in summer. I want a bi-directional fan and some ducting, with some sensors so I can move the cold air upstairs in summer and the warm air downstairs in winter. I reckon this would be great. I might actually implement it this year, with the high prices. I think I can run the vertical ducting through the box bit where the pipes go.

I wonder if that (heat exchange) set up could be made to work using unused open fire place chimneys?

I’d seriously consider some kind of heat exchange system for circulating heat. You could test it with two cheap rads from some classifieds, some garden hose, a pump and some automation widgets. Worth a try to see if it helps.

Doesn't really need it, the floor of the conservatory is black so absorbs a lot of heat into the concrete slab. By the time I leave for work it's usually the same temp as the house on a sunny day even late into the year so I just open the kitchen door and let convection do the rest. Then close it again when the sun puts that that (south by south east facing) wall into shade about an hour before dusk.

All though taxing bad stuff, may be the only solution for some stuff. It really doesn't help with changing peoples attitudes. Apart from making these things aspirational, the rich have got away with thinking they can do whatever they like in this world and avoid consequences, just by buying their way through. This is something that needs to stop, you shouldn't be allowed to do things to the detriment of large numbers of other people by chucking cash around it needs to be illegal and morally unacceptable. People need to be held accountable, and no amount of money is going to compensate for making the world a worse place. So they shouldn't be allowed to do it anymore.

It’s all about education.

This. It beggars belief that it’s this late in the day and yet a good majority of people that I speak to/read don’t know what causes/what are the main drivers of AGW. Neither are aware of the projected effects @1.5 deg, 2.0 deg etc.

They don’t know what to limit/change/know what to lobby for, don’t know what the government has/hasn’t pledged, don’t know what the global targets are and how we are doing. Most either deny it/deny that a good portion of it is even happening - and are still willing to argue and bicker and claim ‘conspiracy’.

It really is a tragic slide into hellish outcomes for life on Earth over the next century and at this point we’re still asking for it.

Yes our so-called leaders have let us down. But we’ve let ourselves and each other down. Not to mention the rest of the planet. As ever - the cultures whom have contributed the least CO2, deforestation and pollution are already feeling it the most (and soonest).

The complete adoption/total acceptance of consumer-culture means (to borrow/paraphrase) that we knew the price (and minutae) of everything and yet have ‘unlearned’ the true value (and origin) of anything.

I would strongly urge reading the IPCC Sixth Assessment Report (particularly from Working Group II)

snippet:

9 The following overarching conclusions have been derived from the whole of the assessment of Working Group II:

i) The magnitude of observed impacts and projected climate risks indicate the scale of decision making, funding and investment needed over the next decade if climate resilient development is to be achieved.

ii) Since AR5, climate risks are appearing faster and will get more severe sooner (high confidence). Impacts cascade through natural and human systems, often compounding with the impacts from other human activities. Feasible, integrated mitigation and adaptation solutions can be tailored to specific locations and monitored for their effectiveness, while avoiding conflict with sustainable development objectives, and managing risks and trade-offs (high confidence).

iii) Available evidence on projected climate risks indicates that opportunities for adaptation to many climate risks will likely become constrained and have reduced effectiveness should 1.5°C global warming be exceeded and that, for many locations on Earth, capacity for adaptation is already significantly limited. The maintenance and recovery of natural and human systems will require the achievement of mitigation targets.

And although ‘every little helps’, it really isn’t a matter of just buying a more efficient car and eating one less steak a week and everything will be dandy. Nothing could be further from the truth.

CO2 and GHG Emissions by sector

A few forecasts:

The United States air conditioning system market is currently valued at US$ 20.3 billion and is estimated to top a market valuation of US$ 35.2 billion by the end of 2032

In the UK, CO2 emissions rose by almost a third between mid-May and mid-July - driven mostly by the energy sector. Sainsbury’s, the second biggest British supermarket group, has seen the sale of fans spike by 1,876 per cent in the last week.

Sales of air conditioning units have also gone up, rising by 1,420 per cent during the same period as people in the UK struggle to cope with record temperatures.

Also:

The most common pressures causing deforestation and severe forest degradation are agriculture, unsustainable forest management, mining, infrastructure projects and increased fire incidence and intensity.

With the current rate of deforestation, the world's rainforests will be gone by 2100.

In the UK, CO2 emissions rose by almost a third between mid-May and mid-July – driven mostly by the energy sector. Sainsbury’s, the second biggest British supermarket group, has seen the sale of fans spike by 1,876 per cent in the last week.

Sales of air conditioning units have also gone up, rising by 1,420 per cent during the same period as people in the UK struggle to cope with record temperatures.

Oh man, we are screwed. 🙁

They don’t know what to limit/change/know what to lobby for, don’t know what the government has/hasn’t pledged, don’t know what the global targets are and how we are doing. Most either deny it/deny that a good portion of it is even happening – and are still willing to argue and bicker and claim ‘conspiracy’.

There's an element of this that's lead by hopelessness - the problem is SO big and SO dramatic that a single person's actions (or inactions) are irrelevant so people don't know where to start or what to do. Conversely, this isn't helped by companies greenwashing eg "our detergent bottles are made from 80% recycled plastic" / "our deliveries are carbon neutral".

Oh great, you think as another Amazon van rolls up outside and you bung on another 40° wash.

There's another (related) element that feeds off that of "well the problem is SO big that anything I do doesn't matter anyway" and then they book another cheap flight to Spain...

It’s all about education.
We can but hope that the young generation at school, are learning about this climate crisis and pass on knowledge to their elders, many of whom don’t realise that we all need to change

Yeah - about that - if my daughter (19) and her social group are anything to go buy it’s not sinking in with the young either. I think they are keeping B&Ms plastic tat buying team in full employment.

One of the first things I’d ban is shit like this - there’s just no need for them…

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…but Flash say you can send them back for recycling. I wonder what percentage actually comes back and how many end up in landfill.

It beggars belief that it’s this late in the day and yet a good majority of people that I speak to/read don’t know what causes/what are the main drivers of AGW. Neither are aware of the projected effects @1.5 deg, 2.0 deg etc.

Not to me it doesn't. Most people are, and always have been, not very bright and disinterested in how things are run. It's hard work being bothered by all this stuff, and people just want to get on with their lives. It's how it's always been. You can blame them (us) for this, but then again you can't.

The people who should be acting are the ones who are actually in charge and who know full well what's going on. But as we've seen, the dim and disinterested, if they vote at all, will vote for any old bollocks. The reason we're in this situation is that no-one really knows how to get us out of it.

I seem to remember hearing that despite the councils insisting on stuff being separated for recycling, they are in fact just sending the majority of it to be burned in power stations.

I can't wait for the day where we rent everything from corporations, everything's too cheap and why should anything be free right.

Political hijacking and corporate commodification of the green movement. Isn't Elon Musk amazing. I've got Paramount+ and Disney.

Imagine if all we had avaialble was one range of cars.

the rich have got away with thinking they can do whatever they like in this world

It's sort of disappointing that the solutions people come up with to stop a world crisis seems to be "We need to recreate Soviet Russia of about 1971" Which ironically, paid for itself by being the worlds largest exporter of oil.

It’s sort of disappointing that the solutions people come up with to stop a world crisis seems to be “We need to recreate Soviet Russia of about 1971”

That’s largely a strawman argument isn’t it ? In fact I don’t think I’ve seen that suggested anywhere else except by that one person in this forum. We can’t ‘stop’ this now we can only mitigate.

Sadly, social media is awash with people claiming that all suggestions (and action) for climate-change mitigation is simply eliteoverlordglobalmarxistcommunisms (TM) at work

On a similar note - I believe that the Citroen Ami is now available in the UK. Unlike Soviet-era communism - other short-journey transport options remain available. Including legs, feet, bicycles and Chelsea Tractors.

On a similar note – I believe that the Citroen Ami is now available in the UK.

I was seriously interested in getting one, put the deposit down etc. But unfortunately the current UK legislation means it's impractical for us as a family.

That’s largely a strawman argument isn’t it ?

No, it's just a joke (not a very good one though, clearly)

One of the first things I’d ban is shit like this – there’s just no need for them…

…but Flash say you can send them back for recycling. I wonder what percentage actually comes back and how many end up in landfill.

How bad is that stuff really though? I mean just on this forum the other day, (not meaning to single anyone out particularly, this is a common mindset here), someone impulse bought some expensive suspension forks and was now looking to buy the rest of a bike to put them on.

Surely the environmental impact of a 50g plastic duster is basically zero compared to buying a whole bike's worth of steel and carbon and plastic and rubber that you don't really need, but just kind of fancied because life's short and **** it, you can afford it so why not?

Again, this isn't a value judgement on that poster or his/her actions, if I was that flush then maybe I'd be doing it too. More a comment on consumerism (perhaps middle-class consumerism) generally.

There's a difference between a disposable item and a reusable item that will last decades like a bike, but as many have said on this forum in previous threads cycling as a hobby, and specifically MTB, is just not an environmentally friendly sport.

Personally I absolutely can't stand things like this which are marketed as an environmentally friendly product but just shouldn't exist.

One of the first things I’d ban is shit like this – there’s just no need for them…

…but Flash say you can send them back for recycling. I wonder what percentage actually comes back and how many end up in landfill.

Does seem daft that new stuff is being invented when on the whole we're also doing our best to eliminate other single use plastics.

That said, my OH's just as bad, but I will begrudgingly accept that sometimes the "bathroom cleaning wipes" do do a better job of cleaning the sink/taps than traipseing round the house in search of the bathroom cleaner and a j-cloth in the bathroom you're not 100% wasn't also used to clean the toilet rim.

cycling as a hobby, and specifically MTB, is just not an environmentally friendly sport.

I disagree with that. You can drive all over to trail centres and buy a new bike every year, but you don't have to. You can ride an old steel bike locally, and that's pretty low impact.

I will begrudgingly accept that sometimes the “bathroom cleaning wipes” do do a better job of cleaning the sink/taps than traipseing round the house in search of the bathroom cleaner and a j-cloth in the bathroom you’re not 100% wasn’t also used to clean the toilet rim.

That problem is entirely yours to solve though. Have a stack of cotton cloths, have a cleaning cupboard with the cleaning stuff in so you know where it is, and put the dirty cloths in the laundry.

Personally I absolutely can’t stand things like this which are marketed as an environmentally friendly product but just shouldnt exist.

Most companies are greenwashing now. Quite successfully as well, proclaiming the environmental friendliness of their product because it is / can be recycled or they plant a tree for every sale or the production of it is carbon neutral...

Figures never actually explained or clarified...

No, it’s just a joke (not a very good one though, clearly)

@nickc, yikes! Poe’s Law got me, I’m sorry. We definitely need a <satire> button on the forum/s

That problem is entirely yours to solve though. Have a stack of cotton cloths, have a cleaning cupboard with the cleaning stuff in so you know where it is, and put the dirty cloths in the laundry.

You drive an AMG Merc, I'm not sure any amount of cotton cloths is going to offset that 🤣

 I’m sorry.

no worries, no need to apologise. 👍

I took part in the 'Big plastic count', earlier this year.
The results were astounding. Only 12% of all our plastic gets recycled. The rest is burnt, buried (in landfill) or shipped off to far away lands, where it gets burnt.

It's easier than ever to go back to the ways of our grandparents when it comes to cleaning. Cotton cloths will last a long,long time, use natural sponge instead of those dreadful foam pads, many shops now do refills, using lemon juice, vinegar or just good old elbow grease. Let items dry naturally. Don't use a drier (outside is free). Cycle where possible. Wear lots of layers instead of having the heating on at 20d. Plant a tree (even a tiny one in a pot)
Make your own dish washer tablets. Only wash clothes when they are actually dirty (not after one wear). Only put on a full dishwasher. Don't buy plastic tat from China.
Do not under any circumstances buy helium 'celebration' balloons.
Make your own compost, grow a few things to eat, such as lettuce (a child can do this in a tray). Use tap water, you don't need to buy big plastic bottles, have a milk man. Don't cut your grass, have a pond, plant a hedge.
These are all suggestions that really will make a teeny weeny difference.
Re-use, repair and re-cycle.
It's easier than ever to do these things.

@Bunnyhop.

You are describing 'The Good Life'.

Time for a remake?

inkster - no, it's a difficult life for all these things to happen. It takes time and energy. People want, easy lives, comfort, accessibility, lots of choice, gadgets.
It's so much easier to wash a mtbike with a hose, than use a bucket and water from a water butt.
Let's all stop making excuses.
Many folk are returning to the good life, giving up high powered, high paid jobs and having a simpler life. This takes courage and commitment.
We all have to do something and it's going to be painful, we have to think differently. Hard for families with young children, but if we don't do something there are consequences.

I disagree with that. You can drive all over to trail centres and buy a new bike every year, but you don’t have to. You can ride an old steel bike locally, and that’s pretty low impact.

Yes we all could do that..... But we don't - MTB is a large industry worth billions of pounds (world wide) that relies on new stuff being sold, places to ride, holidays to go on etc. Quite often it hides behind the 'its just a bike' eco credentials. Pretty sure STW along with every other mag has done a 'how eco is mtb?' article over the years.

You drive an AMG Merc, I’m not sure any amount of cotton cloths is going to offset that

This argument mustn't descend into point scoring, because that's one of the biggest reasons no-one does anything - people are too concerned about whose better than whom rather than what needs to be done. But, it's not an AMG, it's AMG Sport - 2.2l diesel.

Yes we all could do that….. But we don’t

I think many of us do.

But I don't think it's as simple as you think. If jet-setting MTBers weren't going to Morzine or wherever, would they be sitting at home? No, they'd be going somewhere else and doing something else. MTBing is just a sport to do when they're there.

"inkster – no, it’s a difficult life for all these things to happen. It takes time and energy. People want, easy lives, comfort, accessibility, lots of choice, gadgets."

Basically the narrative espoused in 'The Good Life'.

I was half joking but a contemporary remake of 'The Good Life' wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea. Still, carry on watching Mock the Week if you like.

I blame the 100, if we had test cricket right now it would be chucking it down!

Huh, the hill I live on, is on fire

*well, now smouldering after a fire

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Shamelessly stolen from Faceache, im about 30m from the fire in the photo

piemonster - scarey for you.

inkster - I'm the old granny of the forum. Like others I was born at the end of the 'Boomer era (horrid expression). Sorry I don't know what 'mock of the week' :o) (I'm guessing its a telly programme)

To others complaining about boomers - We had 'blackouts' as a child, food was expensive and we didn't waste anything. Many people grew their own produce where possible. We got clothes out of a catalogue. My first flat had no central heating. So for 'we' boomers, it's not all been plain sailing.

I am skeptical that anything will be done to halt disaster as humans are programmed to reproduce, be comfortable and seek happiness which unfortunately seems to involve rampant consumerism  for the majority of people.

The world has a finite amount of resources and population growth is unsustainable so there will inevitably be contention for resources in the future unless regardless of any measures put in place.

Humanity is too successful so some form of correction will happen. The "best" option would probably be a pandemic with 50% mortality rate which would trim the herd and solve most problems for a period. Other options such as a war for resources culminating in a unrestricted nuclear exchanges would be far worse.

Bunnyhop - I'm very much with you on this; also hacked off with posts on various threads making critical comments about 'boomers' - enjoyed all the benefits and then pulled up the drawbridge behind them leaving subsequent generations to struggle on as best they could.
Factually incorrect; it's a poisonous and surprisingly prevalent view.

I’m very much with you on this; also hacked off with posts on various threads making critical comments about ‘boomers’

Agreed. It's taking the art of divide and conquer to its logical conclusion - even make members of the same family hate each other.

I don't think small changes are going to cut it - recycling/reusing yes but its hardly going to make a dent.
It's also not always obvious what the "right" thing is - things suggested in this thread and elsewhere:
Get a milk man - plenty of lifecycle analysis shows that plastic bottles are lower impact, one of the highest recycling rates, energy required to transport the heavier glass bottles, energy needed to clean and sterilise glass bottles
Plastic wrapping on food - Greenpeace keep posting pictures wrapped broccoli when its clear that the food waste caused by not wrapping food is much worse (cucumbers, broccoli, not two pears in a plastic tray and a lid)
Reusable nappies? Depends

 It’s taking the art of divide and conquer to its logical conclusion

It really isn't. It's a population based metric not a personal one. The UK average reading age is (shockingly) 9. You probably have a better reading age, right? The UK's average BMI is 27.6. Offended by that? feel like divide and conquer between the sizes?

Just because your experience of being in that generation or just the fact that you belong to that generation doesn't make it personally your fault. ok?

We could post up a list of really shitty Gen Xer's if you like?

Get a milk man – plenty of lifecycle analysis shows that plastic bottles are lower impact, one of the highest recycling rates, energy required to transport the heavier glass bottles, energy needed to clean and sterilise glass bottles

I have this discussion regularly with customers, just to add in another point, many customers who have a milk man already but say "if you sold your milk in glass bottles I'd happily buy it from you instead". our milk comes on a van, alongside fruit, veg and other perishables 6days a week, if one milk bottle breaks the driver would have to bin all the stock on board so it's not practical for shops to trade in milk bottles.

So milk is delivered to our village by to vans every day, one only sells prepackaged items (also fruit and veg, but in  plastic btw), orange juice etc along with the milk. The other serves the shop and pub and supplies milk in plastic but recyclable bottles.

Plastic wrapping on food – Greenpeace keep posting pictures wrapped broccoli when its clear that the food waste caused by not wrapping food is much worse (cucumbers, broccoli, not two pears in a plastic tray and a lid)

Reusable nappies? Depend<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">s</span>

This is spot on, there's a reason for most of the packaging on food, although some is purely for marketing. I was involved in a study for food storage and display for a large super market (I designed shops before owning one), the costs of keeping fruit and veg clean, fresh and appealing Vs wastage etc made plastic packaging essential for supermarkets to be profitable. Don't get me started on those misting displays some supermarkets have - 100% marketing bs.

It’s taking the art of divide and conquer to its logical conclusion

The blame can only be placed on artificially targeted at boomers with the power of hindsight...

Meanwhile, the younger generations all benefit from an improved quality of life made possible by the technology advances that our generous forebears came up with.

If you really want to blame someone, other than oil executives, bankers, politicians and most importantly media barons, who until the advent of the internet had almost complete control over the flow of information, then Michael Faraday is probably as good a target as any;

besides Electricity Generation being mankind's primary contribution to climate change, the discovery of electricity increased the potential for mass production, which in turn produced a means of constantly filling peoples homes with enticing adverts for more consumer products...

@Bunnyhop.

I'm so early in the Generation X category I could almost be classed as a late boomer and can recognise some of the benefits that boomers had, like a free university education for one thing but like you I can also remember the power cuts and hardships of the 70's and being a boomer didny save many in the North from extreme hardship during the 80's either.

I remember in the mid 80's I worked for a friend's dad who had started a small light engineering business at the height of and in the spirit of Thatcherism. (Ironically, the three partners were all ex Leyland workers and were proud Labour voters).

Even back then my friend's dad bemoaned all the now Tory voters in his village who took for granted the free education, health and social services that they had inherited from post-war Labour policies and initiatives. (Selfish p***'s is what he used to refer to them as).

There's also the proportionality thing, the majority of boomers still around will be the more affluent who will mostly vote conservative, so any toxins that were once evenly distributed amongst a generation will have become more concentrated.

As the earliest generation to be saturated with TV and the power it has over the psyche, boomers have endured the most brainwashing...

Not just in terms of aspirational lifestyles and the allure of consumer products for social status, but also in terms of world view and political opinion

Brainwashing that continues to this day may I add, across a wider range of platforms that not too long ago would've been considered impossible

As always though, they still want to divide and conquer...

As the earliest generation to be saturated with TV and the power it has over the psyche, boomers have endured the most brainwashing…

Hmmmm. I'd argue that they benefited from an increase in information and opinion.

I think that in the 20s and 30s, people mixed far less, had access to less diverse media (and less in general), and were in their own echo chambers more than they are now. TV and mass media improved the spread of ideas for a while before it was hijacked.

Where do you think people in a rural town got their ideas from before TV?

Plastic wrapping on food – Greenpeace

Ac copy of BUND, the Friends of the Earth Germany magazine regularly drops into my letter box, until very recently it was wrapped in plastic. When I saw they'd swapped to a paper envelope I thought "maybe there is hope".

I know they're just tiny details but I can now buy apples in cardboard with no plastic, there are paper bags for the loose fruits and veg, they've put doors on all the fridges... .

Then I read the air-con thread. 🙁 One step foreward two steps back.

Where do you think people in a rural town got their ideas from before TV?

Duh, the squire, obvs, or at least his appointed regurgitator of information; probably in the quaint setting of a nice country inn...

Meanwhile, those that used their own Frontal Cortices and Hippocampi excessively would likely be open to ridicule and derision

Though I'm open to other theories...

I agree with you on that point jivehoney.

My parents and their generation thought that advertising and media had no influence on them, of this they were adamant, they saw TV as merely giving them a range of options.

My parents were very much the ones in control in this information exchange, they couldn't countenance the notion that they were somehow being influenced and I see think that most boomers who are still around continue to view media in that more binary, less pervasive way.

The next generation (X) was far more critical and better informed about the influence of media and advertising.

To think, we used to worry how the television might be a bad influence on the kids! Now we are more worried that it's trying to turn grandma into a terrorist.

"Where do you think people in a rural town got their ideas from before TV?"

The Church?

They’re absolutely linked. The more humanity in an area, the more use of resources, deforestation, pollution/emissions, loss of biodiversity and so on

Maybe that was true once upon a time - before industrialisation and globalisation - but we outsource most of that stuff nowadays. The Brazilian rainforest (for example) is far less densely-populated than the UK, yet the UK uses and abuses the Brazilian rainforest all day long in our shopping baskets.

Then take a look at the other ‘Amazon’. Dirty deeds done cheap out of our ‘area’.

Every generation in my own family has been aware of propaganda and the bias of media. My grandfather used to mock the WWII propaganda, my father often muttered "lying bastards" while reading the paper (but still bought it), us Boomers sang along to "It Says Here" by Billy Bragg and following generations had their own protest songs in addition to all that went before (Madame uses Strange Fruit by Billie Holiday in her classes still today). Junior is a proper revolutionary having been to Science Po and the Humbolt.

As Bunnyhop said somewhere, it's all down to education. It doesn't much matter what influencers and biased media sources spout if the audience is thinking critically. It's not what you are exposed to, its the way you recieve and percieve it.

"As Bunnyhop said somewhere, it’s all down to education"

I'm not so sure about this, in the example I gave reffering to my freind's dad, he was bemoaning precisely those who had received the benefits of the expansion in post war university education but were begining to pull the ladder up even back then during Thatcher's 80's

How do you educate people to not be Selfish?

It doesn’t much matter what influencers and biased media sources spout if the audience is thinking critically. It’s not what you are exposed to, its the way you recieve and percieve it.

Whilst I agree with what you're saying, on an individual level at least, we have to take into account herd instincts; all too often, whatever dissenting voices (often the brightest critical thinkers) may say, their wisdom is lost as slowly but surely, a stampede builds and the individual is lost as yet again we're corralled on the collective path instigated by the media at the behest of their masters, like it or no

I like very much this version of Jive.

Or are the people being corralled happy to be coralled because they are what drive the coralling. They are both cattle and cowboy.

You or I might see it's perhpas not in their best interests but the way they see themselves and their interests means that the propaganda just comforts views/feelings they already had and they are happy to be herded in that direction.

Have a look at the original Brixit thread. For some people one emotive point trumped any amount of potential loss or inconvenience. Call it instinct if you like. Sheep will run over a cliff when chased by a wolf and there's not much point trying to explain that there are better strategies when they are pretty much hard wired to flee whatever the consequences.

just comforts views/feelings they already had and they are happy to be herded in that direction

A lot of those views/feelings are likely to have been taught by their parents... in which case, boomers are back in the frame!

have been taught by their parents… in which case, boomers are back in the frame!

And yet you're claiming the milleniums and younger they brought up are more woke. Despite the media being more sold out than ever. Make your mind up. If the current generation is more woke it's perhaps because their boomer parents aren't as bad as you paint them and boomer teachers have done a damn good job of teaching woke. I always did and Madame still does. Back in the late 80s and early 90s I was already selecting text books with a chapter on the greenhouse effect (and having difficulty with everyone assuming it was something to do with the ozone layer).

The average age of a French electric car buyer is 56. Have a look at the petrolhead threads on here, the younger memebers are the more likely they are to buy a high performance second-hand ICE.

And yet you’re claiming the milleniums and younger they brought up are more woke

That's not at all what I'm claiming... many people have been targeting boomers as key to the predicament we find ourselves in, as if one specific generation conspired to destroy the planet for their own priviledged existence; clearly that's not the case.

Politics is being portrayed as key to the situation, as if different results in elections where both parties are broadly similar and serve the same interests would have had such repercussions as to alter the global landscape.

How many different election results around the globe would be required to change the weather we're experiencing today?

Of course, I'm not just talking about the UK, or Europe, or all the way yonder in Australia; I'm talking about the planet as a whole, as the issue is all encompassing; it doesn't matter who plonks their flag on a icecap, when that icecap melts and the flag sinks to the bottom of the ocean, like much low lying land is set to in the not so distant future.

Even if Jeremy Corbyn, the wonderjesus had been elected, he wouldn't have magically conjured a solution whereby events catalyzed decades before were turned around in 5 short years... especially with the bods in Whitehall steering government on behalf of Her Madge

I think we're all aware of that and have been for some time:

Edukator
Free Member

Pointing out on STW that man's current activities will lead to climatic change that is undesirable as it will lead to much suffering for many is perhaps a waste of my time. My time might more usefully be spent on a US forum or trying to reach the billions of Chinese and Indians that want nothing more than to increase their carbon footprint and will soon threaten to nuke anyone that gets in the way of their aspirations. Laters.
Posted 12 years ago
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Nothing is stopping any of us doing what we can now rather than hunting for excuses or blaming otheres.

How do you educate people to not be Selfish?

A good question. We're not talking about academic education here. The way to educate people not to be selfish is to show them the real people and the humanity behind the stories and the statistics. Contrary to what people on here say, most people are not inherently that selfish. The problem is that there is a difference in our emotional response when it's someone you know or can relate to compared to when it's an 'other' group. That's why we are falling over ourselves to support Ukrainians, but much less so Syrians or Afghans. The reason people care less about the people from further away is not that they are brown, it's that they are an out-group, they aren't like us (white westerners). Most people are more hostile to any group they perceive to be 'other' and they attach undesirable behaviours to those groups to justify that hostility.

One area where education has had an effect is sexual orientation. When I was young most people were pretty homophobic, the adults as well. People thought it was 'disgusting' and 'not natural' etc etc. But now it's far more normalised. People are much more willing to accept homosexual love for what it is, we (or at least some of us) watch TV with touching and even explicit same-sex love scenes and we feel for the characters just the same. Those TV shows are presenting those relationships as normal and worthy and challenging us to see it that way as well. That is the sort of education I am talking about.

Even if Jeremy Corbyn, the wonderjesus had been elected, he wouldn’t have magically conjured a solution whereby events catalyzed decades before were turned around in 5 short years

Maybe not in 5 years, but he could have gone a long way towards demonstrating that there is another way. Or he could have stuffed it up, who knows?!

It's very interesting talking about milk deliveries, disposable, nappies, even wet wipes.
For example the milk delivery we use is from a local dairy, the milk hasn't gone to a 'central distribution centre', then re-distributed out to the supermarkets. Often a punnet of British strawberries will be picked in Kent, driven up to a processing centre, then driven back to a supermarket which is possibly only a few miles near the growing site, yet has travelled miles.
Regarding nappies, we all know that a disposable nappy takes approx 200 years to decompose or at the very least breakdown, whereas you can buy reuseable nappies, but of course they take lots of water to wash (boil wash ideally) and need drying, (there are laundry services available, but they are expensive).
Wet wipes - very convenient, great if you haven't got washing facilities to hand, but fill up landfill, bad when flushed down the loo (which far too many do) and have too much plastic in them to decompose properly.
Education will help a person make the necessary changes and choices. Don't be afraid to ask questions. If there are two lots of the same product, find out which is better for the environment. Pro and cons to everything.

The other evening I took out my 2004 'OnOne inbred' for a short easy mtb ride. Fully rigid, duff brakes, 26" wheels, and no slack whatsoever, blimey tons of fun. Everyone should drag out their old bike once in a while, even if it does sound like a bag of old spanners.

Big queue for the local jet wash this morning. Good that people aren't using a home hosepipe but sad that people feel the need to keep their PCP mobiles free from dust.

For example the milk delivery we use is from a local dairy, the milk hasn’t gone to a ‘central distribution centre’, then re-distributed out to the supermarkets. Often a punnet of British strawberries will be picked in Kent, driven up to a processing centre, then driven back to a supermarket which is possibly only a few miles near the growing site, yet has travelled miles.

Our local milkman company is owned by Muller (although not branded directly) , comes from a depo in Gloucester (not the diary), and strawberries and other fruit are again from larger distribution. But the milk delivery firm markets them selves as

To make sustainable living simpler for our customers, by selecting the finest eco-friendly groceries and delivering them to doorsteps in the most sustainable way.

Many of their suppliers are UK firms to be fair, but cirtainly not local. The reason I know that they are a small part of Muller, we used to use them as milk suppliers a number of years ago, when Muller bought them out they stopped all commercial delivery and concentrate on domestic. They lost lots of older customers at they same time as they went online only for orders, billing and enquiries.

My shop however the milk is from Gloucester and we sell strawberry's from Evesham. Like our meat, the in season fruits and veg generally come from within 50miles.