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Are you next going to quote Nancy Kelley (Stonewall) comparing people who believe that sex is real (and it matters) with anti-semitism.
Sorry, but I think now you're the one putting words in my mouth.
And, as you’re pulling in stories from the USA, don’t you think there might just be a very real conflict of rights where significant numbers of males (including rapists and murderers) who self identify as women are being transferred into women’s prisons. Or is this just progress, with women as collateral damage?
The US 'Justice' system is horrific. The percentage of their population that they incarcerate is ridiculous and the limited distinction between violent and non-violent offenses is incredibly dangerous.
I'm not going to come up with a solution here because it would take a massive overhaul of US society to fix the problems they have with their prison system.
What I will do is ask you this. Is this really a zero sum game? If transgender women are left in men's prisons is it acceptable that they are just collateral damage?
I think there should be a solution where no one is getting raped or murdered in prison.
Loooooong post...sorry.
Hey all
I’ve held off commenting on here - I’m not super active but lurk/read regularly - but I want to throw my two pennies worth in. I’m not looking for an argument - life’s busy and arguing on the net is not top of my list of stuff to do tbh…
Firstly, I really appreciate the folks entering into dialogue with an open mind, sharing experiences and trying to get their heads around the issues. I’ve read the thread and I’m putting myself in the position of a trans person reading this and there’s a few things that I think it’s worth saying, because I wouldn’t speak up if I was that trans person.
No-one’s denying the rights of someone to feel safe in a space - but I can’t help feeling that some of the language being used about trans folks in this thread mirrors what would have been said about LGB folks a few decades ago: “I don’t want them in my space”, “I don’t feel safe with them around”, “they’re not my people”.
I think it’s worth remembering, or learning, for folks who aren’t too up on LGBTQ+ history - that trans people were an integral part of the ‘scene’ since the very beginning - chucking bricks at coppers at the Stonewall Inn, etc, and as much as middle-class straight-passing gays might like to ignore it, it’s the trans folks, femme guys, butch girls and the like that get 90% of the abuse on the street. I marched in my first Pride event when I was 15 back in 1995, and have been doing stuff since, and there’s always been trans and non gender-conforming people involved.
I’ve been, and still am, friends with trans people both m>f and f>m, as well as drag queens, non-binary folks and even cis folks (I’ve done A-level chemistry, and it just means the opposite of trans, please take it up with Wikipedia if there are still issues please). I can assure you that they’re all more bothered about the fact that no-one in the Uk does F>M lower surgery anymore so people are stuck with half-completed procedures, or that friends and family are going to reject them, or they’ll get attacked (again) in the street. In my experience, they’re often acutely aware that if they ‘pass’ as their preferred gender, and pull when out and about - not being upfront very early could well lead to a dangerous situation down the line. As the stats come in at about 1 in 4 Trans people in the UK having attempted suicide and 9 in 10 having thought about it - I’d have thought the vast majority have more pressing concerns than coming up with a dastardly scheme to catch sight of some genitals in a changing room.
For a bunch of people that have usually been on the receiving end of at the very least verbal abuse, bullying, coming-out worries, etc., and at the worst physical attacks, there’s a very vocal minority in the ‘LGB’ community who seem to be challenged by their world being cracked open a bit. For example - I’m bemused as to why, if it’s so obvious that’s someone’s Trans on a dating site, and that wasn’t your bag, that you wouldn’t just move on to someone who is your type.
There’s tons of right-wing, evangelical, religious, and politically-motivated opposition to the LGTBQ+ community as a whole, both in the UK (still) and more widely abroad that are rubbing their hands at this, and I still question the tie-in between American evangelical anti-LGBTQ+ groups like the Heritage Foundation and some of the key players in the LGB Foundation.
Are there conversations to be had about how best to navigate accommodating Trans people in sport, or what happens in someone transitions in a single-sex school, or how to deal with the tiny minority of predators? Yep, there probably are - but I’d question whether throwing our trans cousins under the bus, who’ve been allies and part of the crew for bloody ages, is really the way to build bridges.
Oh, and by the way - all those folks who are saying the UK has been a wonderland for LGBTQ+ people since 1066 or thereabouts - I must have imagined sofa surfing with friends for 18 months when I was 16, being put in hospital when I was 18, and being sacked when I was 23 (early highlights). Your anecdotes are lovely and they make my big gay heart heart glow, but they doesn’t mirror the experience of most LGBTQ+ people growing up back then, or some even now.
How hard can it be simply to switch universally to individual unisex toilets and changing rooms?
I don’t imagine many people of any kind really like getting their bits out in public.
Regarding the definitions, why not use sex and define women as adult human females, with female determined by chromosomes, XX? Thus trans women are male, XY.
There will be a small number of people who have a difference in sex development (DSD), with male or female (in as much as its anyones business!) defined by gamete production?
I feel the change in language has caught out some spaces which used 'woman' as a synonym for 'female' when they were set up - women's refuges, prisons and sports being three examples. This also affects quotas - for example 'number of women on FTSE boards' kind of things...
Regarding prisons, trans units may be the way forward, protecting both women and trans women. AS far as sports goes, make the male categories open (wherte they aren't already), or set up new categories?
this is rapidly following the non-binary thread that got closed. It was meant to be a mention that it's Pride month and some nice thoughts (albeit at primary school level, apparently)
Can we either drop it or close it now.
As the stats come in at about 1 in 4 Trans people in the UK having attempted suicide and 9 in 10 having thought about it
This is very hard reading for me as back in 1999 I watched a dear friend of mine go through the struggles during a transition from M>F.
what I will never forget is the night she was attacked after some drinks, and her having a complete break down because this was becoming normality when out and about. She would get sneered at, spat at, punched, groped and called every name imaginable.
What I will never forgive myself for is not recognising the night she came over a few days later for what it was. She thanked me for being her friend when everyone else had turned their back on her, and very subtly, said goodbye.
It was only when I found her the next day after she had hung herself that I realised the true meaning of that conversation.
I don’t have the answers, and we are further on than we were back then, but we still have a very long way to go.
this is rapidly following the non-binary thread that got closed. It was meant to be a mention that it’s Pride month and some nice thoughts (albeit at primary school level, apparently)
Can we either drop it or close it now.
I'm not sure if people in the UK realise it but the level of transphobia is a lot higher than elsewhere.
I'm looking at it from outside the country and I'm actually quite shocked at the difference in attitudes between people who I know in my current country (Norway) compared to people from my hometown. This is in real life, by the way, not just from forums and social media.
I don't think the answer is to not discuss it. I'm not 100% sure what the answer is.
I just wish people in the UK could see what it looks like to the rest of the world.
https://www.vice.com/en/article/889qe5/trans-rights-uk-debate-terfs
The discussion has been informative for sure, and could continue to be but we just seem to be in danger of going back around the XX vs XY, sex vs gender, and so on that derailed the last thread.
@theotherjonv Thank you for starting what should have been a happy, positive thread. Maybe some of the haters will modify their views over time and regret some of the things they said.
@jeed Thanks for your post, you write very well and made some really good points
Meantime we will have our own Pride day today. Rainbow clothes, and later a rainbow barbecue with lots of cheesy music. There will be ABBA. 🌈🎶❤️ My partners daughter is VERY excited.
Love to everyone being kind.
The discussion has been informative for sure, and could continue to be but we just seem to be in danger of going back around the XX vs XY, sex vs gender, and so on that derailed the last thread.
I have to say, this thread and the NB one have really opened my eyes to what is going on the UK right now. Like I said, I'm observing this from a country that has already legally implemented everything that we have discussed here. This is why it feels so bizarre to me.
I'll be honest, I've had a mental picture in my head of what the people here I disagree with are like and my mental picture is closer to Stuart Campbell than Germaine Greer. I now know that that is probably not the case.
Stuart Campbell is just one example of who feminists are currently in bed with. He was never known to be a champion of women's rights. In fact, he was known to be a raging misogynist.
https://ahdinnaeken.wordpress.com/2013/08/25/nationalist-front-misogynist-exposed-as-rape-apologist/
And yet he seems to have had a Road to Damascus moment and is now a feminist who strongly supports JK Rowling (previously his mortal enemy). I would suggest he is actually still a raging misogynist and 'Women's Rights' is a convenient vehicle to promote his trans-phobic views.
Take a good hard look at the people who are supporting you and ask yourself if they are still going to be on your side once transgender people are back in the closet.
Sorry, but the UK is an embarrassment right now. The right has scored a major victory against the LGBT community, feminists, and the left in general. You've been played and the rest of the world is looking at you and thinking WTAF.
And, as you’re pulling in stories from the USA,
What happens there comes here, see also the hoo-ha about the Conservative party and it's current operating methods.
We all need to be careful that their culture war promotion doesn't overwhelm our society.
We all need to be careful that their culture war promotion doesn’t overwhelm our society.
I’d dearly love to think not, but am convinced that the internet trolls and ‘alt’ media grifters have only just gotten a taste for the dopamine kicks and fiscal rewards of sowing grief and misinfo at such a large scale for so little input. All in a day’s work for $ubs/revenue. I find it massively depressing.
Mrs P lost one close family member to it (sucked into the meme factory of sociopaths knows as 4***n ,all played a part in causing death by their own hand, with some pushing by ‘trolls’) and another (my family) has gone so far down the multiple conspiracy-theories rabbit-hole that all they now do is send mass emails to linking to American conspiracy sites.
I spent so long online researching how the above happened that it helped send me into pit of depression. This was around 10 years ago. I spent a year or so completely offline trying to rekindle some optimism.
It’s (the ‘pilling’ ‘game’) is so much worse now, You wouldn’t believe how many sociopaths are out there trolling every avenue of social media trying to hook new ‘players’. Not just troll farms, but utter sickos who assume nihilistic identities and play out their manipulative fantasies around the clock. Bad faith actors account for most of the utter piffle that passes for this ‘culture war’ but now it has a life of it’s own like Frankenstein’s monster.
It has now moved into mainstream media and public policy.
I wanted to make a documentary about all of this because the scale and influence of it blew my mind, and I was only scratching the surface. But I’ll be completely honest I don’t currently have the luxury of mental fortitude to take on such a task. I also have dependents.
Thanks for starting the thread and I apologise if my comment wasn’t in the spirit. I completely agree that everyone regardless of sexual orientation, identity etc has the right to a peaceful life free from discrimination. I do maintain my position that stifling debate is not necessarily the best way to help wider society understand.
I’m not under the LGBT+ umbrella but I have been gender nonconforming since I was a kid and I feel there are multiple ways to be a “man” or “woman”; however I have had my fair share of people throughout my life calling me a “bloke” in a derogatory way, or telling me that I am not feminine enough. That experience means that I am particularly interested in topics relating to sex vs gender. It doesn’t mean that I am uncomfortable with unisex toilets and changing rooms or sharing spaces with trans people.
The last thing I want to do is stifle debate. But debate is not easy if people with opposite positions just shout at each other from the far ends of the room - in the end everyone else just leaves the room.
And then they move on to another room and start all over again.
I want the debate as well. The problem is that I don't consider hypotheticals as a valid argument when it comes to this subject anymore.
I live in a country where I could walk into the tax office on Monday morning and change my gender. It is literally a form.
Norway is not the only country where this is the case. If these hypotheticals held any water at all then surely we would have some evidence of this from one of the many countries where people have been able to self identify for years.
https://lesbianandgaynews.com/
I combed this website that was posted earlier in the thread where the vast majority of stories are anti-trans rights (if all your news about the LGB community came from this site you would think there was no issue the community cared about more than stifling trans-rights). If there was anywhere to find a catalog of cases where men were invading women's only spaces it would be here. I couldn't find anything.
So far there has not been an epidemic of violations of women's rights in Norway, Ireland, Portugal, Belgium, or Argentina. If there has I haven't been able to find any evidence.
The transgender rights that people are 'debating' are already in place all over the world. You can't use hypothetical examples anymore to make your arguments.
If asking people for evidence to back up their views when the evidence is available is stifling debate then fine, I will stifle debate all day long.
Not everyone who wants to debate is polarised, but perhaps you can see that the “no debate” thing has the potential to polarise people. You can’t coerce people into understanding and caring, you have to have a respectful conversation. When women are now being called ‘cervix havers’ and ‘menstruaters’ in health awareness literature and the like, while men are still being called “men”, not ‘prostate havers’ you might understand why some women are getting irate.
That's a fair comment and some interesting points too. As I've said before, although I have a chip in this game I have a lot to learn and understand still. I was worried we were going down the same rabbithole as the NB thread, particularly when some new posters to the thread started the XX vs XY, sex vs gender thing.
I found the Vice article a very interesting read, today's Guardian covers similar ground. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jun/05/stonewall-trans-debate-toxic-gender-identity
I was aware of the TERF issue, but didn't really know if the threat of predatory trans-women was real or hypothetical. Interesting as you raise that countries advanced compared to us haven't seen the manifestation of that, on the other hand as we saw in the recent murder of Sarah Everard, the fear and discomfort caused by being 'followed' by a man should not be underestimated whether the threat is real or just that a man's taking the same route home as you. It's not easy.
As I said a page or so back, the LGB position looks like excluding a large number of trans women (women mainly, I perceive but may be wrong that cis-men feel less 'threatened' by trans men) when the real need is to address a few individuals. The Guardian says the same in it's closing paragraphs (quoting Peter Tatchell)
“Many women’s agencies have long accepted trans women without a problem. They vet each trans woman and accept them unless there is evidence that they are a threat. This scrutiny keeps women safe and has long worked well in many women’s services.
“You cannot base trans policies on the actions of a handful of bad apples. That would be grossly unfair to the vast majority of trans women who never have, and never will, pose a threat to other women.”
If there was anywhere to find a catalog of cases where men were invading women’s only spaces it would be here. I couldn’t find anything.
How about a twitter thread full of videos 'women' in dresses getting their cocks out and masturbating in public areas (e.g. in front of the full length mirrors that women use to check their outfits) whilst children's voices can be heard in the background.
Or 'women' on twitter/reddit uploading images and words describing getting a thrill out of trying on women's underwear in shop changing rooms, ejaculating on the the clothing and returning them to the racks.
I was not going to share this (as it is so utterly repugnant) but you keep slurring UK feminists as right wing bigots and loudly proclaiming that any concerns are hypothetical.
Yes, repugnant. I don't think anyone would disagree.
But reflective of all trans-women, or some?
Do all need to be excluded because of the actions of these sickos?
How about a twitter thread full of videos ‘women’ in dresses getting their cocks out and masturbating in public areas (e.g. in front of the full length mirrors that women use to check their outfits) whilst children’s voices can be heard in the background.
I'm surprised that this hasn't been reported in the press if it is widespread. The UK press is definitely not shy in coming forward when it comes to painting trans-rights in a bad light so I'm surprised it's not getting wall to wall coverage.
Or ‘women’ on twitter/reddit uploading images and words describing getting a thrill out of trying on women’s underwear in shop changing rooms, ejaculating on the the clothing and returning them to the racks.
Again, why isn't this being pounced on by The Daily Mail, at least?
I was not going to share this (as it is so utterly repugnant) but you keep slurring UK feminists as right wing bigots and loudly proclaiming that any concerns are hypothetical.
I'm saying they are hypothetical because there are now many countries where it is quick and easy to identify as whichever gender you like (not always non-binary but that doesn't seem to be your main concern). Did the disgusting events you are describing happen in any of these countries?
You claim that I'm slurring UK feminists. I'm not. I'm saying that evidence should now exist of what they are claiming given that so many countries allow self identification.
You are the only one who is trying to slur anyone here. You are trying to tie transgender people to people who are performing perverted acts when the vast majority of transgender people are just trying to live their lives.
From someone who identifies as a lesbian this is extremely concerning. I don't know what age you are or if you lived through periods where gay and lesbian rights were being pushed back against but you are using the exact same tactics that were used back then.
I'm curious to know what you think is going to happen once transgender people are marginalised out of society. Do you think things will carry on as before or do you think the right will then turn it's attention on the LGB community.
I think once they've dealt with Transgender people what comes next will make the Section 28 years feel like Brighton and Hove Pride.
@theotherjonv Sorry, I meant to say this earlier, but I think you're doing a fantastic job supporting your child to the best of your abilities in what can only be described as an incredibly hostile environment.
I would like to move back to the UK but between Brexit (my children are born abroad and my girlfriend is Italian) and the state of the transgender 'debate' in the UK I really wouldn't feel comfortable raising my kids there.
I will support my kids no matter how they decide to identify and I'm thankful I'm somewhere where the state is not trying to make their lives more difficult. I can't imagine what you must be going through.
I only hope that the UK (and the left in particular) can realise just how much they are being played by the right at the moment and LGBT rights can go back to advancing instead of contracting.
All the best to you and your family.
When women are now being called ‘cervix havers’ and ‘menstruaters’ in health awareness literature and the like, while men are still being called “men”, not ‘prostate havers’ you might understand why some women are getting irate.
It's a time of cultural change and language is always going to take time to adjust. The debate is so toxic in the UK at the moment that I can see why people might be tripping over themselves trying not to offend anyone and falling flat on their faces while doing so.
In Norway it doesn't seem to be too much of an issue. The literature I read when my girlfriend was pregnant seemed to be fairly comfortable with the word 'woman' at least.
I can see why women would be annoyed, though. However, what I don't see is how you get from being annoyed to trying to say, 'man in in dress masturbating while children watch' and 'transgender' in the same sentence as many times as possible.
Reasonable debate means people have to be reasonable.
particularly when some new posters to the thread started the XX vs XY, sex vs gender thing.
I brought this up because on the previous page BruceWee was asking for definitions. Humans are a sexually dimorphic species and definitions of sex will involve chromosomes.
From this, in my view, cis women require protected areas not because of their gender expression, but because of this sexual dimorphism and the societal structures which have grown from it.
However, what I don’t see is how you get from being annoyed to trying to say, ‘man in in dress masturbating while children watch’ and ‘transgender’ in the same sentence as many times as possible.
I know you replying to someone else, but you attempted, again, to, misrepresent what I said, again.
I don't believe these men (in dresses and womens underwear) ****ers in public areas are transwomen. I believe they are men with fetishes (like old men dressed a female adult babies that the BBC photographed at it's Pride coverage a few years ago). These videos have been uploaded to porn sites, precisely because the are a violation of women's spaces.
The problem, that you repeatedly deny exists, is that that is a conflict of rights. The only reason that these men were able to do this is because of people like you and the agenda you are pushing, i.e. that it's complicated or women's feelings/safety matter least.
Women have long accepted transsexuals (a term many are happy to use so don't going banging on about that this term being 'transphobic') in a our spaces.
What we are not happy about is the 'anyone who identifies as a women', of whom a sizable number appear to be heterosexual men with a fetish - look up sissy porn if you fancy reaching for the eye-bleach after. If a male can tweet at women (including high profile women such as JK Rowling) words such 'choke on my girl cock' I would think anyone here could understand that these are not vulnerable people suffering from crippling gender dysphoria.
If LGBT rights (and I'm including T here) are at risk, it's because they've allowed these men to hitch a ride on the wagon.
Stonewall and their 'no debate' mantra have lead to the current state of affairs in the UK. The LGB Alliance only came about because attempts at opening up dialog failed. Interestingly, one of their new trustees is Robert Wintemute.
Robert Wintermute;
Professor of Human Rights Law at King’s College London, lawyer or expert in successful LGB court cases in Europe and Latin America, signatory of the 2007 Yogyakarta Principles (now critical of Principles 3 and 31)
I don’t believe these men (in dresses and womens underwear) **** in public areas are transwomen. I believe they are men with fetishes (like old men dressed a female adult babies that the BBC photographed at it’s Pride coverage a few years ago). These videos have been uploaded to porn sites, precisely because the are a violation of women’s spaces.
Why, then, are you linking this deviant behaviour with trans rights? There are some sections of the LGBT+ community that do themselves no favours with this approach.
As Bruce says above if it were a major problem there would be countless media hits when googling, this is the type of subject that local papers here (UK) would get in a froth about on lots of different levels.
As Bruce says above if it were a major problem there would be countless media hits when googling, this is the type of subject that local papers here (UK) would get in a froth about on lots of different levels.
I'm just wondering how much of a problem it has to be before you think it's worth worrying about.
Bruce posted a link to an incident (assault?) of a gender non-conforming women in a women's toilets. Was this indicative of a real problem (and one caused by the mean women no less)? Strange this doesn't go both ways. It's always:
that never happens
[examples provided]
it's only a few cases
[more examples provided]
well, the women can then report it to the authorities
If you all want claim that porn-addled men are part of the 'LGBT community' than go for it. There are many, many ordinary people (gays, lesbians, bisexuals, transsexuals/transgender) that are trying to distance themselves.
If you all want claim that porn-addled men are part of the ‘LGBT community’ than go for it
It's not a case of 'Then go for it' implying thats a made up notion. Many abusers identify themselves,and are gay. Thats a fact. But it's the actions of an individual, not a whole.
Now I'm not identifying every gay man or woman as being abusive, just stating the fact of how they label themselves. So try not to disparage or put down someone stating such. Again it is the individual,not the whole that are to blame.
Bruce posted a link to an incident (assault?) of a gender non-conforming women in a women’s toilets.
This one?
In this case it was a cisgender woman who was assaulted for not looking female enough.
To me, this is the worrying part about 'protecting' women's spaces. The men who want to 'protect' you are not your friends.
Once it's been established that female only spaces are for cisgender women only then it's going to be necessary to police this somehow. There will be no shortage of chivalrous men desperate to protect 'real' women.
The problem then is that there will be a tremendous pressure on all women to conform to a certain standard of femininity in order to be able to enter women's spaces without harassment.
If you take nothing else away from what I am saying please take this. The men who claim to want to protect you also want you to conform to their own definition of femininity. They are not your friends.
I don’t believe these men (in dresses and womens underwear) **** in public areas are transwomen. I believe they are men with fetishes
I'm actually really happy to hear you saying that. I was getting a bit worried that you subscribed to the proper old-school TERF thoughts on transgender people (that trans men are simply switching sides because they want to be in the ruling class while trans women only do so because they have a sexual fetish).
Thankfully these views aren't common even among feminists who are Trans Exclusionary but I think the effect this definition has on the debate can still be felt.
I think we all have to remember just how ****ed up the UK is in terms of it's sexual and gender education. I'm only 40 which isn't that old but I was still educated entirely in the Section 28 era.
In addition, mental health services are woeful. The stigma around mental health issues is still very real.
When you combine sexual and gender repression with untreated mental health issue it's a recipe for deviant behavior.
It's worth remembering that the invasion of women's privacy isn't limited to women's only spaces. Up-skirting occurs in public spaces. Men will sit down next to women on buses and start watching violent pornography on their phones.
Thankfully the next generation seem to be far more open about exploring their sexuality, their gender identity, and coming forward about their mental health issues.
I think that forcing transgender people back into the closet is not going to help the issue of women being assaulted and having their privacy invaded. If anything I think it's going to make it worse.
It’s worth remembering that the invasion of women’s privacy isn’t limited to women’s only spaces. Up-skirting occurs in public spaces. Men will sit down next to women on buses and start watching violent pornography on their phones
And I'm glad you recognise this. Sadly, is it still largely ignored/trivialised; statistically, some members on here WILL have friends who think this is a laugh. Similar also happens in gym, with men covertly filming women.
At least we are finally getting specific offences put into law to (try) and stop some of that horrific behaviour. I’d welcome similar legal moves to help deal with the kind of individuals you have highlighted. We need to deal with them and their actions specifically, in a targeted way.
And I’m glad you recognise this.
In this spirit that this thread was started with, I think it's really important to remember that our goal is the same. We want everyone to be able to live their lives identifying however they are most comfortable and free from harassment and violence of any kind.
I do consider you to be on my side and I really hope you think of me the same way.
I entirely accept that I've been debating this in the wrong way a lot of the time. My only defense is that I genuinely wasn't aware of what is happening in the UK at the moment and I was basing all my arguments from the way things are here in Norway.
I'll try to be a lot more accepting of other perspectives from now on.
Strange this doesn’t go both ways. It’s always:
that never happens
[examples provided]
No, you provided one example and some mention of social media reportage. I prefer my news to be factual not something from social media which has been shown to be "fake news" in the main.
Admittedly one example is one too many but it's not symptomatic of a huge issue.
My daughter is a member of the LGBT community and has no time for TERFs going so far as to forswear Rowling when she jumped the shark.
In the main our trans citizens want to live their lives quietly with no fuss nor embarrassment like the rest of us do.
In every society there will be people seen as dont fit in and will be bullied for whatever reason,LGBTQ, hit the right spots with certain people, either through brainwashing by religious leaders,parents or workplaces, things are gradually chanching , after thatcher and section 28, and the abolition of gay sex being illegal between consenting adults along with the age limit being reduced to what ever it is now.
Lets all live our live, be happy and freindly and accept people, dont be affraid of what they do for sexual pleasure or how they want to live their lives, cha and learn from them.
A few years ago went to a pride march as a spectator, lots of transexuals and drag queens there a gang of workmen turned up, looking amazed, then all of a sudden started shouting and clapping as a fellow workmate passed in drag, who was transitioning from male to female, and they where really suportive of her in their comments as she passed.She really looked amazed at their support, as did the crowd.