[Closed] It's Pride Month

Those boards are always spot on and 👍

Difficult to argue with any of those sentiments

Many people will, obviously

It's a bit shit isn't it, I read that and think "yeah, obviously, doesn't need saying". Then you hear some people talk and you realise!

[i]It’s a bit shit isn’t it, I read that and think “yeah, obviously, doesn’t need saying”. Then you hear some people talk and you realise![/i]

I remember a conversation with a colleague when I was working up in Manchester and there was one transgender lady in the team. The man I was talking to was an intelligent and rational person in most respects but when there was a 'Pride' event I caught him sneering at the posters which were similar to the one above.

I talked him through line by line asking which one he objected to and obviously there was no objection to any of them. I then asked if he was happy now that people could have different lives and perspectives to his own and he replied "Yeah but they are just wrong, everyone knows it but they are all pretending and don't tell anyone I said that because I will pretend too"

I really struggled to understand his mindset

His mindset is easy to understand wca, he's struggling with repressing his true sexuality.

“Yeah but they are just wrong"

I will always remember the gay part of sex education at secondary school. Mr Lesick took the session on sexuality, he was a really popular and charismatic teacher. The 'gay' bit basically went some people are gay, which is OK, however I find it utterly disgusting and they have no right to live on God's clean earth. Genuinely put the fear of God into me, can still remember that session 35 years later. Thankfully, things have moved on a bit since then in most places (various African countries being the exception).

I find it strange when people say things like "It is against God's word".

Has anyone actually heard from God recently?
Has anyone checked what his views really are?

They appear to believe that something written down by a bunch of men several centuries ago is the "Word of God" and cannot be questioned.

It seems to me that it is the word of a bunch of men several centuries ago.

The word of God is often spouted by clean shaven men.
"You shall not shave around the sides of your head, nor shall you disfigure the edges of your beard" (Leviticus 19:27); and, "They shall not make any bald place on their heads, nor shall they shave the edges of their beards nor make any cuttings in their flesh"
Just how do you decide which parts of the bible to follow?
****s.

The ‘gay’ bit basically went some people are gay, which is OK, however I find it utterly disgusting and they have no right to live on God’s clean earth.

Did you go to the same school as me? Mind you... the comments on masturbation from our teacher were even more troubling. Doubt it stopped anyone, they just all thought less of him.

It's worth remembering, as its quite mental really, but the Minister for Equality is Liz Truss. Just another example of the government apparently trolling us.

https://twitter.com/KatyMontgomerie/status/1399293131745542145?s=20

Please don't mention S_______l in any thread... it brings the sea lions in.

Mind you… the comments on masturbation from our teacher were even more troubling. Doubt it stopped anyone, they just all thought less of him.

He sounds like a bit of a w***er.

Did anyone mention who they were thinking of, if not him? 😉

Did you go to the same school as me? Mind you… the comments on masturbation from our teacher were even more troubling. Doubt it stopped anyone, they just all thought less of him.

I just wondered what they were doing when they were previously thinking more of him ...

zippykona Full Member
The word of God is often spouted by clean shaven men.
“You shall not shave around the sides of your head, nor shall you disfigure the edges of your beard” (Leviticus 19:27); and, “They shall not make any bald place on their heads, nor shall they shave the edges of their beards nor make any cuttings in their flesh”
Just how do you decide which parts of the bible to follow?

IIRC (vaguely), the excuse is something to do with God creating a new covenant with mankind when Jesus showed up. This allowed people to disregard parts of the Old Testament (including parts or perhaps all of Leviticus) as it's not part of this new covenant. This obviously doesn't stop them from using parts of the Old Testament to back up their dislike of things they don't approve of though.

I just wondered what they were doing when they were previously thinking more of him …

Yeah,funny what sticks in peoples minds, probably wasn't he'd planned.

Mind you… the comments on masturbation from our teacher were even more troubling. Doubt it stopped anyone, they just all thought less of him.

He sounds like a bit of a w***er.

Reminds me of my last school, the science teachers got volunteered to do sex ed because no other teacher knew where to find a cock or something. "Do I get any training?" "No it's easy just read through the powerpoint". OK....final slide "any questions", notes "answer their questions". So I did, got a few parental complaints, quite proud of that, wasn't asked to do it again!!!

I remember our sex ed teacher saying semen was basically like sugary paste and then blushing furiously when one of the 14 year old girls asked why it tasted bitter and not sweet.

I think we might have already ruined what started out as such a lovely positive thread. Sorry for my part in that.

It’s a bit shit isn’t it, I read that and think “yeah, obviously, doesn’t need saying”.

Yes, sadly a lot of things that don't need saying need saying.

Let's get the thread back on the rails. Here are some peoples quotes

It takes no compromise to give people their rights ... it takes no money to respect the individual. It takes no political deal to give people freedom. It takes no survey to remove repression.

So let me be clear: I'm proud to be gay, and I consider being gay among the greatest gifts God has given me.

I've been embraced by a new community. That's what happens when you’re finally honest about who you are; you find others like you.

This world would be a whole lot better if we just made an effort to be less horrible to one another.

I want to do the right thing and not hide anymore. I want to march for tolerance, acceptance and understanding. I want to take a stand and say, “Me, too."

if we just made an effort to be less horrible to one another

This.

“yeah, obviously, doesn’t need saying”

I've been contemplating this...

source

Whilst I fully agree with what the board says I don’t understand why a group that want to be accepted, and this can be any group, and treated as a normal part of society then want to have a whole event celebrating why they are different!

Let me guess, International Women’s Day rattles your cage as well.

I think it's more about celebrating individuality and the freedom to be who they want to be unconstrained by others, rather than specifically trying to be 'different'

Yeah, I’ve always thought of it as more of a celebration of how far we’ve come in concentrating on what’s really important about people, rather than the daft inconsequential stuff.

So should we judge people for their sexuality? Of course not

Voting Tory, on the other hand...

I don’t understand why a group that want to be accepted, and this can be any group, and treated as a normal part of society then want to have a whole event celebrating why they are different!

I don’t understand why you get to redefine PRIDE month and then have a whole post saying that you don’t understand it!

TL;DR

Yeah, I’ve always thought of it as more of a celebration of how far we’ve come in concentrating on what’s really important about people, rather than the daft inconsequential stuff.

That's a lovely sentiment and one I shall embrace. Makes lots of sense to me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pride_parade

Pride parades (also known as pride marches, pride events, and pride festivals) are outdoor events celebrating lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, non-binary and queer (LGBTQ) social and self acceptance, achievements, legal rights, and pride. The events also at times serve as demonstrations for legal rights such as same-sex marriage.

@chrismac

Please accept my apologies if my reply read/s as snippy, it wasn’t intended. Missing a wink 😉

#struggleswitheditwindows

Never been to a Pride event but was all set to go to Brighton this year with the fam
Bit gutted that it's now off but at least I won't get to see Mariah Carey

Voting Tory, on the other hand…

It's the new "gay" and they need accepting by society.

They’re going to get sued by Skittles for that taste the rainbow bit at the end.

https://www.un.org/en/observances/international-days-and-weeks

It seems that it’s international someone’s day more days than it’s not now. This is just the ones the in recognises

It seems that it’s international someone’s day more days than it’s not now. This is just the ones the in recognises

And not a single day set aside to recognise the struggles white cis-gender heterosexual males face just for being who they are.

Blimey our RE (Revd) teacher told us forever about building his own church and shooting ducks (and his dog when it stopped obeying) but we never got on to bashing the bishop, Sodom or Gomorrah. Quite relieved really.

It seems that it’s international someone’s day more days than it’s not now.

And that is a good thing, isn't it. What problem do you have with them?

It seems that it’s international someone’s day more days than it’s not now.

Every year it pops up on faceache that its international siblings day, on the anniversary of my brother's death, I think he did that on purpose!!!

And that is a good thing, isn’t it. What problem do you have with them?

It causes resentment. Last month we had international nurses day and odp day (operating theatre staff). The result is I now have all the non clinical staff saying no body cares about them and why isn’t anything done to recognise their contribution to the working of the hospital

I must have missed ODP day and not sure if it is on the UN list. The UN list is clearly a bit silly (international asteroid day) and not really in the same discussion as the likes of PRIDE so not really sure why you brought that up unless you are saying PRIDE causes resentment because straight people don't get recognised?

I guess it acts as a channel for resentment among people who already resent the LGBT community.

I'm not sure if we should really pander to these bigots by not acknowledging Pride month.

It causes resentment. Last month we had international nurses day and odp day (operating theatre staff). The result is I now have all the non clinical staff saying no body cares about them and why isn’t anything done to recognise their contribution to the working of the hospital

Really? Or are you just making that up to fuel your argument? When I hear the "Well, I don't have a day named after me" speech I find it usually comes from quite bitter, inward looking individuals.

A number of communities have suffered hideous treatment, suppression, and abuse over the years, PRIDE is a celebration, try seeing it in that light and enjoy it.

I’m not sure there’s an equivalence between people who don’t feel as appreciated at work as their colleagues and people who have been stomped on, both literally and figuratively, for decades and longer.

The last few comments highlight my issue with the picture of the cutesy "poem" in the original post (aside from the fact the simplistic grammar and sentence structure appears to target someone with the intellectual and emotional capacity of an 8 year old). That is - it reads like it's all about universal equality and equal treatment for everyone's issues, but really it's about making a statement for certain historically oppressed minority groups. That's fine, if you think that needs addressing. Just don't pretend otherwise.

On the other hand -

I’m not sure if we should really pander to these bigots by not acknowledging Pride month.

A gay friend hates Pride month. Like me, he doesn't agree that "love is loud", that we all need to "march together" or "lift our voices". Each to their own, I suppose.

Really? Or are you just making that up to fuel your argument?

<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">Yes that really does happen. Non clinical staff often feel under appreciated because all the praise and focus goes to the clinical staff. Just because you haven’t seen it doesn’t mean it’s made up to show a different perspective</span>

I must have missed ODP day and not sure if it is on the UN list

Neither is Pride month so what’s your point? Mine is that there are hundreds of ‘special’ days for all sorts of groups who in the main want to be treated as no different to anyone else.

You and your friend is entitled to their opinion, that's fine.

I don't really get why you had to do the intellectual superiority bit though, what it adds to the point of your post. It's not a poet's work, it's a TFL worker (two actually) just doing their bit to brighten Londoner's lives and spread a message.

https://twitter.com/allontheboard?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

I don’t really get why you had to do the intellectual superiority bit though,

Not to go too far on a tangent, but that wasn't the quite the angle I was going for. I didn't say it was written by an 8 year old, but that the choice of language appealed to one. That choice of language is a skill in its own right - not surprising, as the people who wrote it are apparently publishing a book.

Apart from that - thanks, I think I made a fair point or two.

That's how it came across to me. Just some feedback, for next time, as I think it detracts from your fair point.

Also not to go too far off on a tangent too but an interesting 'fact' I just wondered and looked up.

22% of Londoners do not have English as a first language. They may have partially lost 1/5 of their audience with a more poetic version. Maybe more, once you consider the inclusivity of using language that the full demographic can follow.

Anyway, tangent over.

but really it’s about making a statement for certain historically oppressed minority groups

This assumes that the oppression is over. Which for some people, in some places, in some jobs, it might well be. That experience is far from universal.

These threads always end up here... "I want everyone to be treated the same, because I'm not a bigot, but I refuse to do anything, or recognise any one else's attempts to, or see the benefit in any campaigning seeking to, help us get to that point".

I refuse to do anything, or recognise any one else’s attempts to, or see the benefit in any campaigning seeking to, help us get to that point”.

You're making quite the assumption here.

Also, as I initially said - that's fine, if you want to promote a call to action for certain historically (and indeed, currently) oppressed minority groups. Hiding it as a nice poem about equality and self-expression for all is a little disingenuous, that's all.

Neither is Pride month so what’s your point?

You brought in the UN list and the resentment angle.
Why do you, or why do you think others resent PRIDE and who are they?

Hiding it as a nice poem about equality and self-expression for all is a little disingenuous, that’s all.

How so? I mean, it's not supposed to be the only source of information about what PRIDE is about... you can read it and then go and do some googling. As it happens, I thought that in very few words it managed to say an awful lot about what we can all do, and offers encouragement to those who might otherwise be feeling quite alone.

Hiding it as a nice poem about equality and self-expression for all is a little disingenuous, that’s all.

So you would have been cool if they had written a manifesto on that board instead?

They would have had to have written pretty small.

A gay friend hates Pride month. Like me, he doesn’t agree that “love is loud”, that we all need to “march together” or “lift our voices”. Each to their own, I suppose.

Does your friend feel like he owes any kind debt to the 'loud' rights activists?

Or does he believe that the current level of acceptance towards the LGBT community would have evolved naturally over the last 30 years?

Whilst I fully agree with what the board says I don’t understand why a group that want to be accepted, and this can be any group, and treated as a normal part of society then want to have a whole event celebrating why they are different!

Respectfully, I don't think you do "fully agree" do you?

As for the notion that Pride events run contrary to 'normalisation' well I suppose any society that fails to celebrate difference, especially when a history of sanctioned oppression and violence against such groups exists, tacitly gives the nod to oppressive conformism and ultimately not accepting those differences that could easily and innocuously have been celebrated...

These events also serve as a useful way to out people who feel the need to vocally "not understand" as the closet, lightweight bigots they probably are...

I say "lightweight" in the sense that they're now conscious that their distain for various "types" of people is starting to make them potential outliers from polite society, so they've tended to keep their mouths shut, not relishing the idea of having their views examined and challenged. These tentative "not understanding" statements are typically about as brave as it gets...

How so? I mean, it’s not supposed to be the only source of information about what PRIDE is about… you can read it and then go and do some googling.

I didn't really plan to do any textual analysis, but as you ask..

It's not clear who the intended reader of this poem is, as it switches between lines addressing a (presumably) struggling or oppressed LGBTQ+ person (for example, "Don't be afraid to be honest who you are", etc...), and lines addressing the broader population who need to do something (eg, "This world would be better if we made an effort to be more understanding", "Don't pretend that being different is a lifestyle choice"). It might even addressing the select group of appropriately inclusive people ("Those who have no acceptance are the ones with problems").

So, to your point about "googling Pride" - I don't think this poem helps that at all. Which of those potential target audiences would benefit from that? How does this help those who do need to "google Pride", achieve this?

To my original point, there are also lines like "When everyone is treated as equals, we are more free", which would imply that this is also a poem about equal rights and expression for all. But, it's not, it's about correcting historical/ongoing injustices, which is why I called it "disingenuous". Maybe it was a little harsh, but there we go.

It's not a problem, I'm not offended or troubled. Someone just asked why anyone might have an issue with it, and that is the sum total of mine.

Does your friend feel like he owes any kind debt to the ‘loud’ rights activists?

Interesting question, I'll ask next time I see him.

‘Grumpy Old Bastards’ need a half-day allocated. Speaking for and as self, I could feasibly attend both ‘GOB Daylet’ and also Pride Day and yet still disagree and be somehow annoyed with most every individual/group/flag going. And then be annoyed at myself for being annoyed.

<satire>Maybe we should only allow Pride events in countries where they are not allowed.</satire>

These tentative “not understanding” statements are typically about as brave as it gets

Had our town’s first Pride event in 2019. The main road in from the Motorway had a road sign defaced with ‘KILL GAY PRIDE’ graffiti’d across it in large letters. This being the UK we like to think we’re above all of that business.

It’s not clear who the intended reader of this poem is, as it switches between lines addressing a (presumably) struggling or oppressed LGBTQ+ person (for example, “Don’t be afraid to be honest who you are”, etc…), and lines addressing the broader population who need to do something

Yes it does. Which is exactly what I wrote in the post you are replying to. Well, that was my intention anyway. I can see that subtly and subtext are lost on you.

To my original point, there are also lines like “When everyone is treated as equals, we are more free”, which would imply that this is also a poem about equal rights and expression for all. But, it’s not, it’s about correcting historical/ongoing injustices, which is why I called it “disingenuous”. Maybe it was a little harsh, but there we go.

Do you understand what "treated as equals", "equal rights" and "injustices" mean, and how they relate to each other?

Maybe we should only allow Pride events in countries where they are not allowed.

Made me laugh. But also sums many things up nicely.

Which is exactly what I wrote in the post you are replying to.

You said that it would help some people who need to "google Pride", which I assume means those who don't know enough about it and need to read more. As I already said, I'm not sure how this will help. I suppose it might brigthen the day of someone struggling, or maybe help someone already doing good to feel like they are doing some good.

Anyway, that's enough nitpicking from me. I do have a tendency to demand consistency and correctness where it is not necessarily needed.

You said that it would help some people who need to “google Pride”

I did? I doubt it. What I intended to say is that in a short poem, you can only hope to make a few points, you can't explain all the history and context of PRIDE, so to not do so is not "disingenuous", as you put it. People can use google, or ask others, if they feel the need to find out more, they don't have to rely on one short poem on a board to learn everything.

Dang it, @Kelvin, you edited your previous post after I'd already said I was done.

In for a penny, in for a pound...

Do you understand what “treated as equals”, “equal rights” and “injustices” mean, and how they relate to each other?

Yes, I do. "Equal rights" (which we do have, by law) allows there to be a LGBTQ+ Pride, as well as a Hetero Pride (and, I assume, a White Pride, although I'm sure there's some thorny discussion there). "Treated as equals" means "treated the same, regardless of skin colour, orientation, background, nationality and race". "Injustices" are things that can be corrected with the justice system.

in a short poem, you can only hope to make a few points, you can’t explain all the history and context of PRIDE, so to not do so is not “disingenuous”.

That's not, as I explained, why I called it "disingenuous". The reason I called it "disingenuous" is because, I am sure, my definitions of equality are not going to satisfy you. It's a subtle point.

Well, now you've mentioned "Hetero Pride", we get any even better picture of you, and why you've posted in this thread.

Well, now you’ve mentioned “Hetero Pride”, we get any even better picture of you, and why you’ve posted in this thread.

It was an illustrative device, chosen because it's the other side of the LGBTQ+ Pride coin, and is one of the things that would be ok if "equal rights" meant what it literally does. Would it be better if I called it "Non-LGBTQ+ Pride"?

Edit: Your emotional response to the very idea of "Hetero Pride" makes my very point - there would be nothing wrong with that, if it were about the literal idea of equality. As I know very well, "equality" really means "treating some groups different than others to fix historical and current injustices".

If you can't disentangle these things, and take hypotheticals and illustrative devices as literals and use them to slur the person speaking to you, then we can't really go much further.

Wow, I didn’t see this one ending in an argument (despite Kelvin’s attempt with the ‘sea lion’ comment).

Pride is great, there’s something for everyone. I’ve been attending since the first tiny Pride in Brighton in 1991, (not the very first in ‘72?), when it felt genuinely subversive and dangerous.
I’m not interested in the big, brash, commercial party in Preston Park, but I love the parade and the smaller events in Kemp Town.

How anyone can have an argument about this, or about the message on the billboard in the OP, is beyond me.

The sea lion comment? That was in reference to this...

source

(and, I assume, a White Pride, although I’m sure there’s some thorny discussion there)

There is no White identity in which anyone can have pride. Instead, we have national pride - being period of the cultural heritage of your ancestors.

The existence of Black pride only comes about because slavery/colonialism took the knowledge of specific ancestry away from so many Black people.

White pride = white supremacy = racism

Hmmm.

And not a single day set aside to recognise the struggles white cis-gender heterosexual males face just for being who they are.

*Looks out of window - sees dozens of white cis-gender heterosexual males* - if only that community was as accepting as the LGBT+ community then we wouldn't need to celebrate Pride.

It causes resentment

It does? What, because we're not celebrating emergency workers in quite the same way or because, something else?

Last month we had international nurses day and odp day (operating theatre staff). The result is I now have all the non clinical staff saying no body cares about them and why isn’t anything done to recognise their contribution to the working of the hospital

Here's where you can start to recognise the hard work put in by emergency workers - everyone should write to their MP demanding better pay for NHS staff. I have, have you?

Also, does

It causes resentment

apply or not apply in the case of the above?

@miketually

You make my point perfectly. "Equality" is not about actual equality. White pride = bad, Black pride = good. You can make an argument for that, but calling it "equality" is disingenuous (which is what I said in my very first comment on this thread).

I suppose "equalisation" would be a more accurate word.

Interesting/paradoxical argument from twrch. If only for the the problem it has set in my head! I still can’t make head or tail of the argument but it has amused me by presenting a possible paradox.

Firstly I’d need to understand the exact argument and in the exact context.

I suppose “equalisation” would be a more accurate word.

A more accurate word for “equality” in the context of exactly *what*, though??

If you are making the claim that to use the word ‘equality’ automatically means that someone is being disingenuous (rather than naive/less well-educated than @twrch /out of context etc), then you also need to be clear about:

1. The context that they intended (yet weren’t aware of the correct word to use)

Or

2. The subtextual/hidden context they mean to deceive us with (by having purposely inserted ‘equality’ rather than ‘equalisation’)

I’m not sure there’s an equivalence between people who don’t feel as appreciated at work as their colleagues and people who have been stomped on, both literally and figuratively, for decades and longer.

+1

Certain sections of society have been treated appallingly for decades (well longer) and still are to some extent, hence we need positive actions to try to address the inequality. If people really can't get that (or just quietly ignore it) then there's not much hope for them.

@twrch, also, which definition of ‘equality’ are you working from, please?

*Looks out of window – sees dozens of white cis-gender heterosexual males* – if only that community was as accepting as the LGBT+ community then we wouldn’t need to celebrate Pride.

Well, maybe you need to spend less time looking out the window at 'real life' and spend more time looking at facebook and twitter.

That would show you that the only group in society that is actually marginalised is straight white men.

Nope, not just them. I shall be out there celebrating mother's pride.

@p7eaven The "paradox of equality" is a well-understood issue. To make everyone "equal" (for some definition of that word, for example, every station in life has a truly representative proportion of all genders and minorities), you need to treat some groups unequally.

You are right, I suppose, in that I am obtusely refusing to accept the current defintion of "equality" (that is, some groups need treating unequally to correct past and current wrongs). I especially dislike the idea that historical wrongs, and especially those defined by an innate characteristic, need "fixing". Otherwise, where will that end?

I prefer the word "equalisation", because to me it more accurately describes the active process that is happening.

That would show you that the only group in society that is actually marginalised is straight white men.

Just checking, you do actually believe that?

Just checking, you do actually believe that?

On the Non-binary thread I spent pages arguing with 'scientists' and 'doctors' who somehow didn't understand what binary meant. So no, I don't really believe that.

It's funny how you think something is obviously a parody but then you read it back and realise that, nope, there are still plenty out there saying the exact same thing.

Genuine chuckle at this:

Well, maybe you need to spend less time looking out the window at ‘real life’ and spend more time looking at facebook and twitter.

There was a funny highlighted on you tube last night. Set in the US on a lake, we'd a boat with pride flags, being harassed by another boat, simply it seemed because they had pride flags on it, lots of verbal abuse and hand signals.
Karma took over and the abusers boat burst into flames and they needed rescued. 😆

You are right, I suppose, in that I am obtusely refusing to accept the current defintion of “equality”

@twrch thnks for responding. To be clear - I haven’t (yet 😉) attempted to be ‘right’ about anything, am still trying to nail the details/approve the context (with you, ie your working definition vs the definition you claim they are using in the OP)

This in order to clarify/try and understand your argument/contention and also the context. Only in this way might I be tempted to side with your claim that the author (in the OP) is being ‘disingenuous’.

So first off, what is this ‘the current definition’ of “equality” and where may I find it?

Any particular dictionary? Unfortunately I only have access to an old copy of Oxford Modern English (1992)