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Just saw this in the Guardian.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2024/nov/10/new-national-park-wales-local-opposition
What does STW think?
It's thought provoking.
I thought that too.
People go to these places already so I don't see what the issue is.
Seems like another typical PC view of North Wales.
I think it needs some thought.
I don't think, would it be okay if i cogitate?
Pondering might be more acceptable?
I'll mull it over, if it's ok with you?
From the article, most of the concerns might be addressed if you could encourage most people to get there by public transport, cycling or on foot.
I think the general answer is that you can't please all of the people. I was puzzled by the idea that a butcher would close at the weekend because it was so full of visitors that the locals couldn't get in. Surely customers are customers?
All National Parks are play areas for townies. We have to decide if we want them to be viable self sustaining communities or theme parks.
That requires rules around affordable local housing, second homes, access/parking, and what businesses and commercial activity is to be allowed. Having lived and worked on the edge of the Peak for nearly 25 years now, I'm pretty sure we haven't got it right yet.
I was puzzled by the idea that a butcher would close at the weekend because it was so full of visitors that the locals couldn’t get in.
If their pies are up to scratch, it would be worth them opening on a Sunday if the visitor numbers swell.
I was puzzled by the idea that a butcher would close at the weekend because it was so full of visitors that the locals couldn’t get in. Surely customers are customers
I think they were suggesting that the people visiting the area brought their own food so didn’t go into the butcher, they just caused congestion preventing locals from getting in.
I was puzzled by the idea that a butcher would close at the weekend because it was so full of visitors that the locals couldn’t get in. Surely customers are customers?
How many weekend visitors are buying meat from a butcher?
Have you been to Llangollen? Lovely but hardly a secret is it.
I don’t think being a National Park attracts more visitors. In theory it’s a mechanism for planning control. So it’s unlikely to be popular with local farmers etc.
“Play ground for townies”. I think that covers most of us here 😉
We have to decide if we want them to be viable self sustaining communities or theme parks.
That’s a weird either/or choice. It will be increasing difficult to make a living out of hill farming, and diversification and adding value will be easier if there’s more attention on the area.
With the current lack of funding available for outdoor recreation in Wales, see NRW's closure of trail centre facilities and redundancies, how will this be staffed/funded? Just drawing a line around a piece of Wales and giving it a label, or actually creating a properly resourced, staffed, funded national park? It feels like a marketing exercise on the cheap.
That requires rules around affordable local housing, second homes, access/parking, and what businesses and commercial activity is to be allowed.
While the area isn’t a national park, what rules are there? If you’re loaded, it’s far easier to move into the area now and have a go at playing ponies* than it’s likely to be after NP designation.
[ * apologies to any of an equestrian bent ]
"Townies"
Disgusting, hypocritical term. Country folk often have to live in urban areas, plenty of farm workers commute from towns because of all the well off who have inflated rural house prices have changed the social set up in villages* - for good or for ill. Does this mean towns are dumping places for "yokels"? They are certainly "playgrounds" for country folk. A lot of these comments will be from folk pulling the ladder up behind them.
Oh and the area is not national park material.
*If the village is still there - there was one beneath the water in the photograph.
Lots of people come here but we don't do anything to take advantage of that to our benefit doesn't feel like a great argument against things.
Tourists are already coming to the area, you've already got tourist attractions through the larger towns in the area (Bala, Llangollen, etc) and places like Vyrnwy, Degla, etc that are already attracting people to the area.
My bigger concern with the proposal is the lack of focus, the other national parks have a consistency, this area covers quite a variety of area what is the thread that ties this together?
All National Parks are play areas for townies. We have to decide if we want them to be viable self sustaining communities or theme parks.
That requires rules around affordable local housing, second homes, access/parking, and what businesses and commercial activity is to be allowed. Having lived and worked on the edge of the Peak for nearly 25 years now, I’m pretty sure we haven’t got it right yet.
this
Lol at reeksy!
I'm always intrigued as to how many people national park status actually brings in, vs it being a lovely area with cool mountains etc.
If you want investment in a rural area then park status is probably a good way to achieve that. But that potentially has downsides like increased property prices.
Same thing is happening in Dumfries and Galloway with loads of no posters up on land when I was there last week. It gave the vibe that a particular sector was objecting that is generally quite vocal, so it would be interesting to hear what other sections of society think
These changes bring opportunities, plenty will take them and be successful. Others will continue to be left behind, but it's important that public services continue to support those communities that don't benefit.
In Dumfries I rode a free community bus which was local authority funded, it was brilliant, linking local villages with the bigger town and also creating a sense of community as people incorporated it into their day, whether it was a trip to a local shop or as part of a dog walk. A little thing that made a big difference
Perhaps the park could offer a “park, ride and meat scheme”. £5 to park, bus into the village and voucher for 3 sausages or a chop.
Pork and ride?
There's lots of local opposition to the proposal for a 3rd Scottish National Park in Dumfries & Galloway too. That's based on what's already been happening in the Loch Lomond & Trossachs and in the Cairngorms. There are also similar tourism pressures being felt in the Scottish Islands and along the coastal NC500 route, so many of the issues are occurring regardless of National Park status.
Being a NP isn't going to make things worse or better just because of a designation.
“people born in industrial or built-up areas don’t deserve the pleasure of enjoying the countryside”.
That's me told ..........
Pork and ride?
Winner 🙂
"This is a local national park, for local people..."
Balancing the needs of the local community with those of the wider Costa card carrying public will only lead to enshittification, I reckon they should go hard and open it as a Lord of the Rings theme park. Llangollem, barely need change the signs. Townies have to dress as Orcs to visit, locals get to be Elves and earn a modest honorarium for telling people to bugger off back to Mordor. Ultimate aim is to produce enough rings that everyone disappears and the Balrog can go fishing in peace.
Play ground for townies
Is exactly why the first national park was created.
has sparked a furious debate over who the countryside is for
As with everything, it's for whoever has the power and money to make it theirs.
There are more townies, and they have more money.
So then @TwirlipoftheMists you’ve had longer than most to digest The Guardian article, what do you think?
Err. That both sides seem to have a good case.
My first thought was Park = Good but reading the article made me think that was a pretty superficial opinion. I genuinely wondered what the STW hive mind would make of it.
I don’t live near to the proposed park but I do live quite close to The New Forest. I’ve always liked going to the forest but I’m not quite sure I’d like to live or work there full time.
It seemed an odd thing to be considering given the closures to other facilities being reported.
I was puzzled by the idea that a butcher would close at the weekend because it was so full of visitors that the locals couldn’t get in. Surely customers are customers?
I live in a small seaside town, a few of our high street shops, Greengrocers etc, will shut for a few weeks during peak summer season for tourists as their business dries up.
From what I can tell theres a three reasons, day trippers tend not to buy, for example, their fish on a day out unless its battered and served with chips, those staying longer tend to stock up in supermarkets before getting here, and a notable number of locals who provide the bulk of business stop visiting the high street to shop as they dont want to walk more than a few minutes or so and they often cant park close enough when its busy.
I genuinely wondered what the STW hive mind would make of it.
Dont bother with an NP and associated fanfare, but instead improve access rights and infrastructure allowing any development to happen organically with plans/funds in place to improve infrastructure if visitor numbers do increase.
I live right bang on the border of where this park would be.
Currently you can go out to the area and not see anyone all day, ride on the roads and they are empty etc
Not sure what benefits this would bring for locals really.
Keep it the quiet secret area it is already
The infrastructure in the area wouldn’t cope either.
All National Parks are play areas for townies. We have to decide if we want them to be viable self sustaining communities or theme parks.
That requires rules around affordable local housing, second homes, access/parking, and what businesses and commercial activity is to be allowed. Having lived and worked on the edge of the Peak for nearly 25 years now, I’m pretty sure we haven’t got it right yet.
While I'd question just how many "self sustaining communities" the UK actually has, I take your points.
In just about every region that pulls the middle-classes in to gawp at the scenery or partake in outdoor activities/sports, property prices get pushed up out of local's reach.
The worries about parking and overwhelmed butchers is just the fluff, thrown about to make locals seem a bit reactionary or a bit 'unsophisticated', but it's fair to say tourism has mixed impacts on a given area.
If it were my area I'd definitely want to see a ban on Air B'n'Bs and some sort of mechanism to keep property prices from hyper-inflating once the chattering classes catch wind...
As someone who lives in the area, the more money that comes into these towns the better in my view.
I know that’s narrow sighted, the incoming money will be mainly in the hotspots that already have a large number footfall. But with my very limited knowledge a lot of the towns around this area need income and jobs.
I don’t pretend to know how money will be filtered down, but I do see a lot of towns that need money.
Being a NP isn’t going to make things worse or better just because of a designation.
While that's true, people lack imagination and so National Park = a lot more visitors than not a national park...
It is a vehicle to attract tourism. Nothing else really.
As others have said, we haven't got the protection right for national parks. But I would balance that with there's a lot of people who run businesses and life (retired!) who don't like the change as much as anything, despite the long term economic benefits a national park brings to the communities, as it doesn't benefit them.
Cutlet chaos.
Since the South Downs has been a National Park, you can’t move for townies. Especially in the towns! its murder ah tell thee.
Currently you can go out to the area and not see anyone all day, ride on the roads and they are empty etc
Not sure what benefits this would bring for locals really.
We were out on the downs yesterday… saw about 6 other people. Back in the day it probably would have been about 5!
There’s lots of local opposition to the proposal for a 3rd Scottish National Park in Dumfries & Galloway too. That’s based on what’s already been happening in the Loch Lomond & Trossachs and in the Cairngorms. There are also similar tourism pressures being felt in the Scottish Islands and along the coastal NC500 route, so many of the issues are occurring regardless of National Park status.
While D&G is lovely and I visit every year, it does seem that somewhere like the NW Highlands might be the more obvious choice for a new NP.
Or yeah, think laterally and have a long thin NP covering the NC500 route.
It is a vehicle to attract tourism. Nothing else really.
Other vehicles are available though - like the whole NC500 thing.
Cards on the table - I live in the UKs largest national park. I'm not convinced of the benefits, but then it's also difficult to imagine whether things would be better or worse if it hadn't been created. I think there are so many competing ideas of what the NP should be trying to achieve and at the same time the organisation is toothless as regards actual legislation.
Sounds like a typical nationalist rant. Don’t want tourists coming and spending time and money round here, we just want grants to provide us an income instead because we are special. I have some sympathy for the Airbnb/ holiday home argument but that can be controlled via planning. At the moment you dont need change of use consent to use a home as an Airbnb. That could easily be changed if politicians wanted to.
Visited D&G the other week - notably Kirkcudbright which had a splendid pub absolutely chock full of gin, Castle Douglas - which wasn't as interesting as I had hoped - and Gatehouse of Fleet (no, I don't really get the name) which has a lovely dog friendly cafe.
As per others have mentioned, lots of folk saying no to a new NP there - mostly because the infra to sustain it isn't in place - hospitals closed, schools rammed, bus services being infrequent and unreliable etc - folk living there don't want more pressure on services that are already having issues.
The dog liked the place - lots of locals carried dog biscuits with them... she was on a winner
Sounds like a typical nationalist rant. Don’t want tourists coming and spending time and money round here, we just want grants to provide us an income instead because we are special.
It's a regional thing, not a nationalist thing. North Wales is virtually a separate country to us in the south, inhabited by about 12 actually Welsh Gogs - not enough to make a decent rugby team - and then filled up with Scousers, Brummies and Mancs. Every summer, on Welsh news, there will be reports about how to increase tourist numbers to North Wales, and the next day there'll be reports about keeping tourists away because you can't move in North Wales because of the tourists. At the same time as trying to get more tourists they do nothing to encourage them - tell tourists about Snowdon and then tow their car away when they aren't watching! 😀
As per others have mentioned, lots of folk saying no to a new NP there – mostly because the infra to sustain it isn’t in place – hospitals closed, schools rammed, bus services being infrequent and unreliable etc – folk living there don’t want more pressure on services that are already having issues.
Perfect chicken and egg scenario....
Live in Kirkcudbright and have seen a lot of opposition to the NP proposal. Its been mobilised very quickly and seems very well funded, but I cant see who is funding it? Maybe the NFU or the local shooting fraternity which is very active?
There are huge issues with local infrastructure as it is. The main A75 which is also a main freight route to NI via Cairnryan is dreadful in places. The local community hospital is closed except for the Drs surgery & some limited services. The wards are closed. Water quality in the Dee estuary and Brighouse bay is consistently poor due to sewage outflow (one of the few measured places in Scotland). Elderly care facilities are massively understaffed. D&G Council have withdrawn a lot of funding for local facilities. I haven't seen a proposal on how National Park status will address this?
That said the town businesses rely on tourists in the summer, but locals work hard to create a buzz which brings people in. I personally don't have a view on whether its a good idea or not at the moment.
Seems like another typical PC view of North Wales.
PC = Plaid Cymru or Political Correctness?