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Well spotted, to late to edit 🤷♂️
I’m sorry to hear you were upset by the forum, Rachel.
To respond to the various comments on here about whether the community is going downhill or not, in some ways at least, things are improving. Ages ago there was a discussion about gender and sport, and I was in a tiny minority of people standing up for Caster Semenya. A similar thread more recently had more balance, I felt.
Should you then “unread it” and pretend it didn’t happen ?
Obviously you can't unread it. But yeah, it's just the opinion of some pillock on the internet. So forget it.
(said the middle-aged-white-bloke)
"Discrimination is not just hate. It's apathy. It's indifference. It's ignorance. It's power. It's privilege..."
To paraphrase Scott Woods lists on racism.
@allthegear I am sorry about last night, I also found some of the comments to be ignorant at best and highly inflammatory, bigoted and extremely insensitive at their worst. I understand that @cougar was trying to point that out to @alpin, although the example chosen is a protected characteristic under the Equality Act 2010 as are you. I was appalled that the comments were allowed to stand despite being previously challenged by other members of the forum, it took the threat of emailing cycling UK and other organisations to have it removed. Even then I was subjected vilification for pointing it out. I did report as many of alpin's posts as I could bear reading, with the hope that STW would read through the rest.
It is obvious that the majority of the members who comment on these threads have highly ignorant and bigoted views, which is sadly a reflection of the society we live in. It is not one I wish to be part of and in challenging it I have been ostracised from my community and by people whom I thought were friends. I joined this forum in the hope of at least learning how to maintain my bike and perhaps meet up with a few of you for a ride. Last night I was close to deleting my account, however there was a few brave souls who were also prepared to challenge and 2 kind people pm'd me.
@allthegear I'm sorry I did not challenge @alpin and others on their views on gender, I opened the thread to see N* and jumped on it. I thought I'd strayed on to 4chan.
It's obvious that people need clearer guidance on what is and isn't acceptable on a public forum, this is not your selected friends on fb and is open to everyone. People's insensitive, ignorant and vile comments not only reflects badly on themselves but on cycling, STW and those who are members of it.
I have decided to email cycling organisations and the Equality and Human Rights Commission to raise awareness and for guidance and support on these issues
To have it suggested that I have upset you Rachel by being trans phobic is not something I can accept.
The thing is, it is not up to you to accept it. It happened. Time to be reflective, not defensive.
The problem with rule #1 is that the people who break it just can't see what they are doing. You have evidenced this beautifully.
Oh and also - send them a PM if it bugs you that much. Report it, don't bump the thread and send them a PM (like Woppit did me when I hurt his lickle feelings with a misdirected joke. But yeah, I got the message (literally and figuratively))
How about showing a little respect and stop posting your misogynistic nonsense all the time.
OK, what have I ever said that was 'misogynistic'? I accept that there is this general view that I am, but refusing to accept that we live in a patriarchy doesn't make me misogynistic. Similarly, articulating the empirically demonstrated fact that women tend to be more prone to trait neuroticism while men tend to be less agreeable in nature is also pretty far from misogynistic. I know I've also been critical of the way misleading statistics have been used to vastly inflate the problems of sexual harrasment and assualt. I've never said these things don't happen, but I have said that I think a political agenda is being waged to artificially inflate these data.
These are the three things I believe have led to my being labelled a 'misogynist'. If you think these statements constitute misogny then that's your opinion; I don't agree with it but I respect your view.
It is obvious that the majority of the members who comment on these threads have highly ignorant and bigoted views,
“The majority”
Really?
The thing is, it is not up to you to accept it. It happened. Time to be reflective, not defensive.
Except it didn't; I have not been transphobic under any circumstances.
My closest and most dear friend is trans and I've been on a pretty challenging journey supporting her at every point in her transition from male to female.
I've spent a good deal of time working with trans individuals to tell their story photographically
I've spoken up for trans individuals in many instances and situations including this forum.
So don't give me this 'it's not your lived experience, it's not up to you' repetoire; the accusation is just not true.
Except it didn’t; I have not been transphobic under any circumstances.
Is that the only way a trans person could possibly be offended do you reckon ?
Something worth considering.
TJ I think you are probably one of the last people who should be throwing stones.
Geetee - you were named "I have been reduced to tears on multiple occasions reading the comments of some users who seem to be prolific recently, people like rene59, technicallyinept and geetee1972."
You have caused offence and upset. Accept that you have. Stop denying it and saying you are not transphobic or misogynistic. Whether you think you are or not you have been named as one of the people who have caused upset and distress.
Reflect on why this is and why so many of us call you out on your misogyny
Geetee has (not unreasonably) asked for evidence/examples of transphobia in his postings. If it's that prolific it should only take a minute or so to find a few examples, and then this can be put to bed.
This is my second post on this thread. I have continued to read since my first and I am trying to decide if the wolf pack hounding of certain individuals, leading to one of them at least feeling they should leave the forum for good, is tantamount to bullying. It certainly seems like it. While they may have offended people they have not broken any laws or any forum rules that I am aware of, and if they had then surely it's for the mods to deal with and not a group of users with pitchforks?
Is that the only way a trans person could possibly be offended do you reckon ?
No of course not but it is what was suggested and I will not let that suggestion stand. That would be like me accusing TJ of being a despotic right wing facist.
If someone is going to be reduced to tears by my challenging the idea that there is such a thing as 'patriarchy' well then seriously that is there problem and I will not apologise for it nor feel remorse for saying it. But we all know that that's not what reduced the OP to tears.
Sorry, it was a mistake to identify individuals as part of my OP. All it did was cause them to feel the need to (incorrectly) jump on the defence.
For the record, geetee1972, it wasn’t your comments on trans people I was upset by but your continual drip, drip issues with women in general. Can you not see how that might make the small number of women we do get on this forum feel excluded and unwelcome? Really?
The irony that a number of people have said I should report posts I don’t like is high right now, especially as on Mobile Safari the report link doesn’t actually do anything...
Whether or not upset has been caused is not in question; it has. Repeatedly and to the point where it leaves a feeling of “why bother”.
Thank you to those that have reached out personally. I know there are some amazing forum members in here.
Rachel
Sorry, it was a mistake to identify individuals as part of my OP
No it wasn't. They only would've been named later by others.
Those 2 idiots are wrong to make this into a bickering thread, but you weren't wrong.
Is that the only way a trans person could possibly be offended do you reckon ?
No of course not but it is what was suggested and I will not let that suggestion stand
Not suggested by the op at all actually.
Just “comments” no specifics at all.
The fact that you can’t accept that you have caused offence is pretty sad really, considering you were named specifically.
Edit- crosses posts with the op above.
it took the threat of emailing cycling UK and other organisations to have it removed
Well, no, it took me raising the issue with the rest of the team and asking them to review the thread and make a judgement in the context of my position as a user to have it removed. The owners of STW then intervened and made the call on our behalf. Threats had nothing to do with it, and indeed, most probably have had the opposite effect. People make threats quite often, it very rarely has the result they intended.
It is obvious that the majority of the members who comment on these threads have highly ignorant and bigoted views,
Yeah, no. It's a very small but very vocal minority. We have a couple of bellends on the forum (who frankly after discussions today are on borrowed time).
especially as on Mobile Safari the report link doesn’t actually do anything
Hopefully if this isn't already fixed it will be soon. If not you can always fire an email to moderator@, as I said earlier on this(?) thread it's a useful yardstick as to whether something is problematic or not outside of our own opinions. Every reported post gets reviewed, usually by multiple people.
The decision to close this thread is in the balance right now as it is descending into typical argument. Think wisely about what you post please.
Please know that I really appreciate the difficult job of moderating the issues I am seeing - I am thankful for everything you and the other moderators do, @cougar.
Rachel x
Let's start the Friday Kylie thread back up. Don't like it? Don't look at it.
Let's start a mildly racist jokes thread. Don't like it? Don't look at it.
Let's start a mildly homophobic jokes thread. Don't like it? Don't look at it.
Let's start a mildly xenophobic joke thread. Don't like it? Don't look at it.
I'm guessing there is wiggle room between caring whether anyone is offended and exploding into moral outrage so lets just go for it!
Or, as an alternative, how about searching for some empathy in there instead, recognising when wrong has been done and doing something positive about it.
The amount of people jumping on the "it's your problem deal with it or don't read it" bandwagon is astonishing. Truly. As I said, I never saw anyone telling Aweeshoe not to be offended.
You have been called out as upsetting and offending people many times but you continue to do it. You have been asked to stop making such contentious( at best) statements but you insist you will continue. Racheal mentioned you by name as one of the people posting stuff that upset her but you continue to insist that you have done nothing wrong and that you will continue to post your viewpoint even when you know it upsets people.
I'm with TJ on this. I cant see what you get from this or how you think this is changing things. It is a bike, music, woodburner, photo and a million other things forum folk like to visit and read. You seem to be ready to drag it down to your personal agenda shouting from your moral high ground through the loadhailer of your prophet JP.
Give it a rest.
You are winning over nobody and destroying at least one persons comfortable place.
And by that a place to relax away from grief, I deliberately didn't say safe place to avoid diminishing that concept.
I'm neither a bloke, nor straight. I am however, white, middle-aged and work in I.T.
I probably fall under Stonewall's very wide 'trans' umbrella.
If I'd been offered the chance to take puberty blockers to prevent unwanted breasts and the chance to become a boy, would I have gone down that route? Probably. I am not alone in this opinion amongst female friends.
Like many of you, I was born in the 70s where kids clothes were brown, not blue and pink, I grew up in the 80s, where androgenous women and guys with eyeliner in pretty blouses were normal. Children today are under so more pressure these days to conform to gender norms, i.e sex stereotypes.
Girls are encouraged to think they are boys if they reject clothing and activities which are labelled 'for girls' (and vice versa for boys).
The number of girls seeking gender reassignment has risen by more than 4,000% in less than a decade. I don't for one minute believe all these to be cases of gender dysphoria.
I honestly think most of the people here are completely unaware at the vitriol aimed at women by transactivists, and how things 'that will never happen' are happening.
Let’s start the Friday Kylie thread back up. Don’t like it? Don’t look at it.
Unfortunately, it's the existence of the thread that's the problem. If you want a thread ogling women, create a WhatsApp group or something. I don't think many women want to see a group of boys phwoarring over women on STW.
Aa a general point, is this not an example of where a PM might be appropriate? I know that other folk have either resolved their differences or agreed to differ by taking it off the forum. It wouldn't always work, but maybe worth a try?
geetee- I think you're missing the point. allthegear didn't just say that posts were transphobic, she also said they were offensive to women. And a lot of yours come across that way. While I understand you believe what you say to be right and just, your views on women and feminism aren't socially acceptable and do cause offence. I really would recommend what others have- consider whether a bike forum is a suitable place for you to use as a sounding board for your views on feminism and women. If you were this fired up by Sram drivetrains being shite (I can hear mikewsmith twitching somewhere...) then I don't think anyone would have a problem with it.
Unfortunately, it’s the existence of the thread that’s the problem. If you want a thread ogling women, create a WhatsApp group or something. I don’t think many women want to see a group of boys phwoarring over women on STW.
Oh god no. I bloody hate Whatsapp groups with a passion. I guess this comes down to the increasingly common debate; who is right if one individual's opinion causes a negative effect in another?
Even if you throw stats, data and any other bunch of references, does that make it any less or any more right?
This will continue to be done to death, especially if people believe strongly in their opinion, so what's the remedy?
I just don't get how you don't see that we are living in a patriarchal society
It now feels like Geetee is waving their pro-trans credentials around to avoid having to talk about the other stuff that they post about women that they're also being told are being aired in the wrong place and/or at the wrong frequency.
who is right if one individual’s opinion causes a negative effect in another?
Let's use an analogy. We all like different foods. These are like opinions. In an office, lots of people bring in lots of foods. But some people bring in really smelly foods. Some people like the food and the smell, but most really hate it. So they put up signs saying please be considerate and don't eat anything really smelly in the office. Reasonable, no?
It now feels like Geetee is waving their pro-trans credentials around to avoid having to talk about the other stuff that they post about women that they’re also being told are being aired in the wrong place and/or at the wrong frequency.
I've repeatedly asked anyone to identify specifically what I have said that they regard offensive with regarding to women and feminism. I even offered a summary of the points above that I felt are the ones that triggered much of the backlash I experienced about a year ago. I'm not remotely shy about this.
Can you not see how that might make the small number of women we do get on this forum feel excluded and unwelcome?
It's not for me to decide how others feel; if you tell me you feel excluded because of my challenges to the orthodoxy then I have to accept that (and I do) but that in itself isn't a reason to not challenge the ideas.
FWIW the 'drip drip drip' experience is one I absolutely can empathise with as it is exactly how it feels to me, being a man, and over the last 18 months being bombarded with messages that aim to reinforce the oppressive nature of my gender and it's contribution to all the things feminists think are ills done to them.
consider whether a bike forum is a suitable place for you to use as a sounding board for your views on feminism and women.
Well it's far from the only sounding board, but surely my decision to inlcude it reflects the high regard I hold the forum in?
I just don’t get how you don’t see that we are living in a patriarchal society
Because there's no evidence for it other than circumstance.
But not its participants
Let’s use an analogy. We all like different foods. These are like opinions. In an office, lots of people bring in lots of foods. But some people bring in really smelly foods. Some people like the food and the smell, but most really hate it. So they put up signs saying please be considerate and don’t eat anything really smelly in the office. Reasonable, no?
Most? Do you mean a few forum members who like to rag on specific individuals? Because that's what this thread has become now, personal. People should just come out and say it. Call for those individuals to be perma-banned for having an opinion they find distasteful. Just be honest.
Because there’s no evidence for it other than circumstance
Ok, so we have lots of that and we can't draw the inference?
This place is becoming increasingly toxic and we’ve lost a load of good people as a result.
It’s not just gender issues either.
Totally. And it's become a negative loop with more people drifting away as the overall tone of the forum becomes more middle-aged, grumpy and joyless.
Some on this thread don't recognise that, saying it's the same it's always been. They are the ones who've given this forum a bad name elsewhere for years by greeting newcomers with negativity and mockery (probably from their own insecurity).
Rachel - I absolutely get why you don't like it here any mnore. I don't really either. But the members you've named are very atypical and are almost always roundly and forcefully condemned by a vocal majority here. Does that not lessen the hurt?
Actually, Rachel, I suggest you leave. You will only continue to face abuse and offence here. The gains are too small to put up with that crap. Leave them to it until it becomes a few kids shouting in an empty room.
clockbait threads
Ok, so we have lots of that and we can’t draw the inference?
It's probably important to say that the term patriarchy is used by feminism to describe a society run by men, for the specific benefit of men and the opression of women.
However, if by patriarchy you simply mean 'the majority of position of power are ocupied by men' then yeah, sure, we live in a patriarchy. My contention (and that of a great deal of others) is that there simply being more men in positions of power (and by the way it's a vanishingly small number of men relative to the population) is not remotely suggestive that a) the subsequent society opresses women and b) it benefits men.
@allthegear - I don't give a shit about many things but this situation annoys me. I do enjoy your posts, especially the eastern Europe bike tour. I definitely think your perspective is very welcome. I do think that if this forum is hurting you then that is a sad reflection of <span style="text-decoration: underline;">this</span> online community. I had no idea about your situation/history. I've just thought that Rachel is a nice person, the sort of person that I'd like to ride a bike with. I guessed that you'd forgive my lack of fitness, lack of skill and overall shitness and would heartily laugh about it. Isn't that why we're all here? To talk bollocks about bikes and have fun with like-minded souls.....
I wandered back in here recently after some time away and the bile and bollocks being spouted on some threads was really disappointing to see. If it's affecting long time members to the degree that allthegear talks of, and I can see why it would, then I think the forum, and by default it's owners, have really lost their way, which is a terrible shame.
Fwiw, I have seen the mods do a great job cleaning up some threads and barring the habitual offenders.
Totally. And it’s become a negative loop with more people drifting away as the overall tone of the forum becomes more middle-aged, grumpy and joyless.
+1
Leave them to it until it becomes a few kids shouting in an empty room.
+1
Increasingly it just seems to descend into the same perpetual, tedious feedback loop. A depressingly inevitable race to the bottom.
geetee1972
Member
Please someone make it stop
Unfortunately, it’s the existence of the thread that’s the problem. If you want a thread ogling women, create a WhatsApp group or something. I don’t think many women want to see a group of boys phwoarring over women on STW.
@molgrips - er, yeah, that was kinda what my entire point was hinging on.
My contention (and that of a great deal of others) is that there simply being more men in positions of power (and by the way it’s a vanishingly small number of men relative to the population) is not remotely suggestive that a) the subsequent society opresses women and b) it benefits men.
This is probably going to drag the thread further down the road, but I'm just going to say this and then stop:
You think that because you occupy a position of male privilege. You can only say that because you just haven't noticed the disadvantages of being a woman. Because you have never been a woman. There is a ton of literature on this subject. Read it, and keep your mind open - don't just assume that your own experience is universal.
er, yeah, that was kinda what my entire point was hinging on.
I wasn't sure from your post, didn't quite understand it 🙂
Aa a general point, is this not an example of where a PM might be appropriate? I know that other folk have either resolved their differences or agreed to differ by taking it off the forum. It wouldn’t always work, but maybe worth a try?
I dont think I have done anything to offend myself. I was talking generally we as a society need stuff pointing out that others think obvious sometimes, so well done OP.
It’s probably important to say that the term patriarchy is used by feminism to describe a society run by men, for the specific benefit of men and the opression of women.However, if by patriarchy you simply mean ‘the majority of position of power are ocupied by men’ then yeah, sure, we live in a patriarchy. My contention (and that of a great deal of others) is that there simply being more men in positions of power (and by the way it’s a vanishingly small number of men relative to the population) is not remotely suggestive that a) the subsequent society opresses women and b) it benefits men.
So your contention is that society in general doesn’t oppress women.
Yet in a thread specifically about how your (and others) posting has upset a woman, you have flatly refused to believe that your part in this is an issue, dismissed her complaint, and then continued to post the same stuff that was upsetting her in the first place.
Well. You’ve really proved your point there haven’t you 🙄
Yet in a thread specifically about how your (and others) posting has upset a woman, you have flatly refused to believe that your part in this is an issue, dismissed her complaint, and then continued to post the same stuff that was upsetting her in the first place.
Very much this.
I was going to type more about showing empathy as well as exercising freedom of speech within this forum but, frankly, I feel I'd be wasting my breath.
OP, at least a couple of the users you specified in your first post consistently behave like proper bells (sorry, can't be any more constructive than that), as do many of the other users contributing to this thread. Shame it is like that (and it is only getting worse), but honestly, if it is upsetting you I would simply stop using the forum, and try and take the nonsense that people post on internet forums less seriously (because there is nothing you can do about it in the bigger sense). Accept that many users are dicks that will probably revel in the knowledge that they think they are anonymously upsetting you from behind their screens. Unfortunately you will not get a utopian situation where everyone's pet 'trigger' is carefully tip-toed around (or even bluntly acknowledged) - people are just too diverse/ignorant for that.
I’ve considered before whether a forum should have a down-vote function, and whether users could set in their own options the ability to auto-hide comments down-voted by the community, setting x as a personal threshold. Generally, the most negative, bigoted views and trolls could disappear.
I think the average forum user wouldn’t turn it on because the truth is people want to read those views and comment on them, and a minority of people want to be outraged on other people’s behalf.
Similarly an ignore button. I wonder if the forum had one how many people would actually press it, and how many would feel they were missing out on the controversial posts? I’m not sure that’s unhealthy. I’ve probably had more introspect from reading opposing views on this forum than any time spend with friends.
It’s not good that Rachel is hurting, she never put herself forward as a torch-bearer. However, whether she should be proud that her openness (and comments around it on this forum) has undoubtedly positively affected the attitude towards trans of a great many users of the forum (me included).
take the nonsense that people post on internet forums less seriously
The problem is, what these people are saying IS serious. They have made it clear that they strongly believe in what they say, and I don't think they're all delibrately trolling. The fact that geetee is so convinced that there isn't a patriarchy is a genuinely serious problem, as this spreads into his real life and is presumably reflective of a portion of society as a whole that needs to be addressed.
Geetee- it's nice that the you hold the forum in high regard, but if your comments have driven a user to post this thread then maybe the forum doesn't hold you in such high regard.
I dont think I have done anything to offend myself.
Oops. An unfortunate typo of mine. That post was supposed to start "As a general point" not "AA a general point" 🙂
Sorry for any confusion!
Rachel, I am sorry you feel this way, although I can see why you feel this way. I am a bit of a lurker on this forum so I guess I am a bit of the problem. I see these posts but just pass them by as I kinda know who and what will be said. This problem will remain if it is not called out, fair play for doing that. On the other side of the scale I have read many of your posts and find them of more interest than the posters you mention. I will admit that you have a different perspective from my usual thinking (white middle aged male) and I thank you for that, this place is better with you in it, please rise above the few
So your contention is that society in general doesn’t oppress women.
Yet in a thread specifically about how your (and others) posting has upset a woman, you have flatly refused to believe that your part in this is an issue, dismissed her complaint, and then continued to post the same stuff that was upsetting her in the first place.
well said.
This thread is turning into a bit of a “I never liked X, Y, and Z anyway, and they never contribute anything of interest”. Of course we should call out anything truly bigoted, but by discussing difficult topics in an adult way rather than swerving them, we can all learn something. Certain pockets of Facebook, Twitter etc are much more hate-filled and bigoted than STW - although that isn’t an excuse for hurtful remarks on here, I’d like to think that STW is generally a more adult place.
And don’t get me started on mumsnet. I found it to be toxic. Women can be shits to each other too!
a minority of people want to be outraged on other people’s behalf.
Here's part of the problem. Folks are not outraged on someone else's behalf. They are calling out offensive attitudes and language. Just because it does not offend me personally does not mean that I should not object to it.
Just because I'm a bloke does not mean I cannot complain about or object to misogynistic behaviour.
Reading all of the above has made me sad again. Especially the OP's post.
I'm logging out of STW for while.
I wish sometimes I could delete my account... but it cant be done.
PS I sure all my grammar in this post is rubbish. It will almost certainly be corrected by some 😉
I'm going to ride my bike 🙂 wierd hey!
Good luck. Rachel.
Here’s part of the problem. Folks are not outraged on someone else’s behalf.
That’s out of context, Charlie. I was saying in a response to considering a more heavily moderated forum, be it by forum function or mod.
I’m absolutely not suggesting that people call out bigotry only if they are affected.
On further reflection, it's good that others have noticed the forum's slide into negativity and the way it's shedding interesting contributors.
However the names rachel mentions are regularly challenged and regarded with contempt by a large section of us (maybe the majority) so her complaint is fundamentally about a failure of moderation.
I worked for a big moderation agency for a couple of years recently and there are a few users who would have been long gone under most client guidelines. And one moderator, FWIW.
So ST management either....
a) Don't mind their site becoming a platform for minor hate speech and misogyny.
b) Are labouring under the same misapprehension about "free speech" as some contributors here.
c) Don't really care enough to engage.
is that there simply being more men in positions of power (and by the way it’s a vanishingly small number of men relative to the population)
Vanishingly small compared to the population?
What a strange comparison. You mean there are few men as CEOs of top companies than there are men? Or the proportion of men in these positions is very similar to that of women?
I've been lurking through this thread and trying to decide if i should respond or not.
Firstly and of most importance, Rachael is awesome and the world would be a better place for more people like you
Secondly; Too often on here there are users who do not want to take on board other viewpoints or opinions and will shout loudly their own view regardless. That's not a discussion. I enjoying learning and understanding how people tick and what their thoughts are on issues. Even if i don't agree, I enjoy a discussion. That's not to say people can't have strong opinions, I'll call out Ton and TJ as two prominent users who don't sit on the fence and will engage in a discussion, but what's interesting is that if you observe examples like them their position will evolve all the time as they take on board counter-arguments.
There are other users who's heals are so dug in that their contribution can derail any form of discussion and just become a shouting match against any reasoned argument against them.
I'm also one who will avoid certain threads that get started or will stop following a thread as soon as i see certain usernames. It's not particularly any worse on here for that kind of user, what is different at the moment is some major changes in society that have a very real personal impact on people. Arguing about riding with or without a helmet is quite different from a discussion about gender identity or sexual discrimination.
Paddy
(White, middle class, heterosexual male. Member of the patriarchy and doing my best to not be a dick)
The problem is, what these people are saying IS serious. They have made it clear that they strongly believe in what they say, and I don’t think they’re all deliberately trolling
It is serious. Women's right are being affected and you are being wilfully naive if you think this is not the case.
In Canada, a person who identifies as a woman (but uses both a male and female name on various social media accounts) has filed around 16 lawsuits against female beauticians for refusing to wax their balls.
The script goes like this:
Complainant : I'd like a Brazilian wax.
Beautician: Sure
Complainant: I'm a trans women but I still have my penis and testicles
Beautician: Oh, we only do female waxing.
Complainant: I'm female, this breaches my human rights, I'm suing you
Many beauticians are only trained in female waxing, i.e waxing a vulva.
I'd think you'd agree that it's not unreasonable for a women not to want to handle a man's penis. It is common for men to get an erection when have the genitals waxed.
There are plenty of other salons JY could use (if they really wanted a wax), yet they continued to seek out women to sue.
The complainant also appears to have a strange obsession with tampons and if young girls might need help inserting them. They have also made numerous racist comments, referring to local non-whites as dirty and smelly.
I don't for one minute believe this person to be genuinely trans but they are being protected by Canadian law and supported by TRAs. Meanwhile, women risk financial ruin, and people speaking out are banned/suspended from social media.
You are all calling out geetee for alleged misogyny, but I don't for one minute expect anyone here to do anything else other than say I'm making this up or that it transphobic to even mention it.
But it's the way you present that one case as being representative of some greater problem rather than the fringe case it is.
And well done, another fine **** you to the OP as your agenda is more important than her feelings. In her own thread. You need to take a serious look at yourself.
her complaint is fundamentally about a failure of moderation.
I'd agree, and we've already explored that. Nobody can link to any posts that should have been deleted that haven't, and nobody has suggested any practical rule changes.
If someone does I'm sure the mods will happily put things right, but in the absence of that I think it's fair to say the mods are doing a perfectly good job and none of us could do any better.
This thread is turning into a bit of a “I never liked X, Y, and Z anyway, and they never contribute anything of interest”. Of course we should call out anything truly bigoted, but by discussing difficult topics in an adult way rather than swerving them, we can all learn something.
Deffo this. We should be playing the ball, not the man. Also we shouldn't be afraid of discussing controversial topics, which by definition upset people. I try to avoid the controversial threads but if there weren't controversial threads you can bet the footfall on STW would drop and the 'good' threads would get less traffic.
technicallyinept, have you thought about changing user name to sociallyinept?
I don’t for one minute believe this person to be genuinely trans but they are being protected by Canadian law and supported by TRAs. Meanwhile, women risk financial ruin, and people speaking out are banned/suspended from social media.
You are all calling out geetee for alleged misogyny, but I don’t for one minute expect anyone here to do anything else other than say I’m making this up or that it transphobic to even mention it.
So that's one person engineering a situation in order to make a point.
Well, two, including yourself.
Anyone that feels the need to live on a forum for to many hours a day is either an attention seeker,a narcissist,a bully or mentally ill anyway,oh yeah or maybe they are just extremely dull in real life,i'm fantastic though.
I’d agree, and we’ve already explored that. Nobody can link to any posts that should have been deleted that haven’t, and nobody has suggested any practical rule changes.
If someone does I’m sure the mods will happily put things right, but in the absence of that I think it’s fair to say the mods are doing a perfectly good job and none of us could do any better.
A failure of moderation at policy level, not a failure by the moderators.
Moderation doesn't just mean policing the detail of individual posts. It also means removing those seeking to hijack your platform for their own purposes.
We all know what Geetee's about and Technicallyinept appears to have joined just to post about certain controversial issues. I'm not so familiar with Rene's output, but if he's consistently behaving like a bellend - regardless of breaking specific rules - then that could be a case for removal.
I don't think the forum is becoming more negative/toxic as such it's just less volume of posts overall and some of the long-term negative/toxic/troll posters are still around so their posts have slightly more 'significance'.
But it’s the way you present that one case as being representative of some greater problem rather than the fringe case it is.
So that’s one person engineering a situation in order to make a point.
It's not fringe case. It's one example. There are plenty.
The women in New Zealand who had their poster campaign removed, this is exactly the kind of thing they're worried about, i.e. ill though out legislation that affects the existing rights of a protected group.
Oob, as said before it's not single posts that are the problem as opposed to the constant drip feed. Rather than use an old thread people start another one to get the frother working. It's the consistency of their approach that grates as opposed to what they are saying.
Just because you can't see a problem doesn't mean there isn't one. If a handful of people are bringing down a community for one reason or another you can either convince them to act in the interest of the community or they can leave. I'm not saying they shouldn't be allowed an opinion as opposed to the way they present it.
I'm not convinced anything will be done though, I mean it took years before they got sick of Junkyard and he would literally argue the face off people who were agreeing with him.
If anyone needs an illustration of how toxic this forum can be this thread is it. Someone who is fairly respected and an interesting contributor (disclosure: nothing to do with gender) complains that people folk already identify as planks are upsetting them and are told they need to just ignore it. (I see not one of you has taken my invitation to explain why aweeshoe wasn't told to ignore the N word). Rather than sit down, reflect and figure out what needs to happen the just ignore line is repeated, others say there isn't a problem and the rest just want an argument with the offenders who came in to either flounce or restate the positions that offended to OP in the first place.
I take back what I said about technicallyinept.
You ALL need to take a good look at yourselves.
technicallyinpet - ffs this thread of all places to start banging on about trans people and how they're evil. Get a grip.
and if you truly believe this;
I don’t for one minute expect anyone here to do anything else other than say I’m making this up or that it transphobic to even mention it.
don't ****ing say it. you'll change nothing, upset someone who we all like and want to feel welcome here and for what so you can walk away feeling like you've banged your bloody drum *again*.
Just ****ing stop. Please.
I mean it took years before they got sick of Junkyard
I still don't understand what he actually did wrong to get a permanent ban. He was annoying but not really offensive.
Like I said he would argue the face off folk who were agreeing with him even after having it pointed out. Who needs that drama?
@chakaping & @wwaswas yes!
Moderation doesn’t just mean policing the detail of individual posts. It also means removing those seeking to hijack your platform for their own purposes.
That’s me humped then.
I’ve been using the forum for no purpose other than my own puerile amusement for years.
Moderation doesn’t just mean policing the detail of individual posts. It also means removing those seeking to hijack your platform for their own purposes.
Their own purposes? It's a general chat board. They're chatting about general stuff that interests them. The fact these threads seem to run to 6-7 pages suggests the topic interest other people as well. Christ the EU thread has tens of thousands of posts. Is that hijacking?.
We all know what Geetee’s about and Technicallyinept
A bit of a giveaway. The mods are spot on, you can't start deleting posts or banning individuals becuase "We all know what Geetee’s about". They, quite rightly, have to actually break the rules.
Oob, as said before it’s not single posts that are the problem as opposed to the constant drip feed
If something meets the rules, it can be repeated. Clearly repeated duplicate threads at a high frequency are going to get merged/deleted but that's not happening AFAICT.
I'm not hearing anything that makes me think the mods or the site policy is wrong, quite the opposite, they've got it spot on.
I think i am going to stick to the Land Rover, big piles of wood and making things with a big hammer threads...
I came to the conclusion a long time ago, that the world can be a depressing place, and we all need to do what makes us happy as long as it does not hurt or infringe on anyone else. We should stop trying to fit into boxes that make us unhappy. I always enjoy Rachel's post, as they centre mostly around sound advice on motorbikes and some great travel tales, clearly things that make her happy, and me also.
At the end of the day, an idiot is just an idiot.