[Closed] It hurts. It really bloody hurts.

TBH until you posted this i had no idea.

**** em.
You have been true to yourself and that's all that matters.

I couldn’t agree more Rachel.

This place is becoming increasingly toxic and we’ve lost a load of good people as a result.

It’s not just gender issues either.

I also had no idea - I'm selective in the threads I read, but perhaps I shouldn't be. I'm sorry that you have had a shit time and for not having tried to help. I just want to let you know that I think you are awesome and you have my full support and sympathy, for what it's worth!

It is very difficult without speaking face-to-face to really understand the implications of what you're saying on an internet forum, which is why there is so much nastiness online. But we can do better if we really try.

I have noticed there seems to have been a downward trend in standards this past year or so. But it doesn’t just apply on this website.
All i can say is, my standards haven’t changed, I suspect people rarely change their standards through life, so i can only assume that relatively newer users are making their presence felt.
I will also add, if anyone is under the (mistaken) impression that it’s ok to judge another human because their life is different to someone else, that says a lot about them but nothing about the person they are judging.
Life rule #1 should always apply, Don’t be a dick.
#liveandletlive.

Are the comments directed at yourself?, if not then I guess it’s freedom of expression and my advice would be to ignore stuff you don’t like

I am like molgrips nowadays, I am very selective with the threads I look at.
certain topics seem to attract the same people, either up for a argument or just because.
keep your chin up love. there are still loads of nice folk on here.
and you seem like on of em.

Whilst I may not be trans, I have several friends riding and otherwise who are and they
too get shit like this. It's uncalled for, unthinking, selfish and offensive.

There have been many occasions where I've wanted to "vent off" but they've all asked me
not to.

I'd go along with somafunk and say try to ignore it (not that it's going to be easy)

Please, I don't need advice for what I should do. I'm perfectly capable of working that out myself.

What this forum needs to do is work out what *it* needs to do.

What this forum needs to do is work out what *it* needs to do.

We should all piss off over to Mumsnet?

I think back to those rides you came out on. Then those rides you didn't. Then those rides you came out on again. And how bloody brilliant it was to share your laughs, worries and your openness with people's curiosity. You were and are a brave, and admirable individual that I feel genuinely richer for knowing.
More importantly, it was just nice to get out on the bike with a lovely bunch of people and share the trails.

That group of people are still about. They're still here. And they're still here with you. If anyone I know has the strength to call out the idiocy which is displayed at times on here, it's you. And you'll always have back up.

Just to echo some of the comments above, this place had gotten a little more negative recently. People being rude to other posters just because they have a different opinion. Little effort made to see the other person's point of view. Shame really as it's generally good and positive. I also tend to skip those threads as it's clear where they are heading. Maybe a few more of us need to step in and call out some of the more bigoted posts. That said I'm pretty sure some of the users mentioned in the op are getting called out fairly regularly. Hope things improve. It would be a shame if the idiots push out the good members.

Does the extension still work that blocks certain users?

There seems to be two approaches for the forum as a whole to take

1) Engage - not surprisingly this just seems to provoke the people who are trying to get a reaction to further activity of the same sort.

2) Ignore it - I think the most powerful thing we as a group can do is not respond.

After a few attempts at 1) I'm fairly firmly in the 2) camp now - if we as a community make it clear we're not going to take the bait the people doing this will go elsewhere to try their fishing skills.

We can't rely on the mods to manage this - we all need to show where we stand.

Rachel is a barometer of STW's approach on this issue, imo, and if she's calling us out then we need to change what we do as a community - not expect her to change what she does or 'just ignore it'.

Does the extension still work that blocks certain users?

I think so. I haven’t seen any posts from that Tom1987W  guy for ages

Why should it be upon the forum to work out what it needs to do? , have comments been made directly to yourself ?  Or are you upset because certain thoughts and personal opinions have been expressed. Not a crime nor against forum rules as far as I know however misguided they may be

I'll admit to having read threads and posts by the usual suspects you list in your post (rene59, technicallyinept and geetee in particular) and thought "what does Rachel think about this?". I doubt they realise that ther are trans people using the forum, but more scarily I don't think they care. They are absolute in their opinions and because they don't realise that they're deemed to be, at the least, dubious by wider society (or, possibly, they know they are but think wider society is wrong), they don't see why they should be quiet about them.

Personally, I'd ban them. A lot of their posts are toxic to the forum and while I think there is a loss of free speech element to this, it is illegal to show predjudice towards trans people. And, also, this is Singletrack's community and if they don't want people making the place toxic or people made to feel so bad by what users are saying they can do whatever the hell they want.

The extension to block users doesn't work anymore (at least, not the one I'm using).

Some people are dicks through lack of forethought, some people are intentionally dicks.

Question for Rachel - have you actually used the report post button where you've felt something crosses the line?

I assume the moderators have real jobs that means the forum is reactively monitored. If they don't know something is off, they can't do anything about it.

Sadly, this forum is a microcosm of society. As society has become more intolerant, so has the forum.

People feel emboldened by their social media echo chambers and now post comments and opinions that even five years ago wouldn't have been deemed acceptable.

Oh, and this:

A lot of their posts are toxic to the forum and while I think there is a loss of free speech element to this,

There isn't a right to free speech on the forum. It's a privately-hosted platform. STW makes the rules, and what they say goes. Even if we don't like it (c.f. classifieds etc..)

People may be free to say whatever they want about whomever they want - just not here.

The extension to block users doesn’t work anymore

Maybe that’s the answer?

If that functionality was native to the forum then these posts would get filtered out by the majority of people.

" It's so easy to laugh
It's so easy to hate
It takes guts to be gentle and kind "
The man who spoke those words may have changed but I always remember them when dealing with idiots.

There are lots of opinions on here I find offensive but that doesn't mean they should be shut down or closed off. You either end up with the proprietors carrying out censorship and/or promotion of their viewpoints (and we criticise the big media giants for this) or a witch hunt where the user base start on a form of McCarthyism.  Maybe we need a binding referendum on who is allowed to post - or a vote-up/vote-down system where some posts are deleted when they fall below a certain measure. Sounds crap to me.

this place had gotten a little more negative recently. People being rude to other posters just because they have a different opinion. Little effort made to see the other person’s point of view.

Really? I've been around this forum for a while and don't think it has changed much in that respect.

Ignore people who conflate free speech with being an arsehole, regardless of the consequences.

also, people who use the term snowflake tend to be particularly thin skinned.

I disagree with a lot of what GT posts and have warnings for my responses to him. However, I can't recall anything he posted that was about LGBT issues? Did I miss it?

Sadly, this forum is a microcosm of society. As society has become more intolerant, so has the forum.

Do you really think this forum is intolerant?

As society has become more intolerant, so has the forum.

That's just utter nonsense. The reason people are having more of these discussions is because people are becoming more tolerant. As that discussion takes place in relation to something like this gender issue, things will be said that hurt others.

It's just the way of things while people work out their thoughts on the matter.

People can maybe be more selective in what they say, but tbh all that does is hide people's true feelings and doesn't let a discussion happen naturally.

I think there has been a shift in the prominent posters on here. I used to come on here and spend time looking through the chat forum, but now I just tend to stick to the bike stuff as I find myself becoming more and more frustrated with the attitudes of some people (although that's even extending to the bike forum these days).

I don't know what the solution is. I think maybe it's a cyclical thing as I've definitely thought this before and then the forum has seemed to change for the better. I think that such issues tend to be caused by a vocal minority rather than the majority of users on here. Maybe we should all be more proactive in calling people out when they say something that's out of order, but people get sick of calling people up on their idiotic attitudes as it just tends to turn into a pointless argument that detracts from whatever the original post was about.

I do find myself ignoring certain threads as I know they'll be full of the same people pushing their personal agendas, and maybe this is part of the problem. If everyone ignores these threads then the opinions go unchallenged by the masses while someone who is affected by these threads may find it harder to ignore and would feel like they are the only ones who disagree with the idiots.

The problem is that most people just come on here for some light relief and don't want to get involved in heated debates, so it's easier to ignore than to challenge.

All I can say to the OP is that you're not alone. I for one would be sad to see you leave due to the opinions of a few idiots. The forum needs more open-minded, welcoming people that do not judge others for whatever reason, not less.

Do you really think this forum is intolerant?

That’s just utter nonsense.

?

Sadly, this forum is a microcosm of society

And today's "society" is the worldwide web. Where everyone feels they have the right to express their views and opinions, no matter how twisted, ridiculous or pathetic. In most of our lifetimes, we have known a pre-internet age, where the sick, pathetic and mostly just stupid idiots of the world just stayed in and just shouted at their bedroom walls. Now they have "a voice" for [i]everyone[/i] to hear. Opinions on things which don't effect them, their family, anyone they will ever know, spring forth from their bouncing fingers.
What I'm saying is, you've got to ignore them. You won't change them, that is for certain. Some will be here, others on Twitter, Facebook et al. Their words typed on here don't really effect you any more than when they shouted at their bedroom walls. Except now, you hear it.

I think like other social media/networks stw needs to look at the overall arc of a persons contribution - if it's negative, disrespectful and intended to upset/provoke reactions then they need to go.

There is no requirement for stw to provide freedom of speech - it's a commercial company and how it behaves on this illustrates it's ethos. I'd hope Mark etc would go for an approach that denies those out to provoke a voice and to give people who have a positive contribution to make a reason to keep comign here without feeling like they've got to take a deep breath before reading and ignore bits that attack who they are.

Trouble is, in the nicest possible way. The moderators can be overly aggressive or assertive. There have been instances where ‘directors of STW’ have told users to f?!k off on Facebook. All because of differing opinions or misunderstanding. It’s a real shame that someone’s posts on a bicycle forum are so ignorant they make another genuinely feel excluded. I would hate to think that I had allowed myself to be the cause for someone’s upset. But I think the general attitude needs to be led from the top by example. The problem is, as we have been told they don’t really care about the forum. We are all still sat here blue in the face from holding our breath waiting for chips feedback following ‘classified debarcle’

I find it somewhat disappointing that the online community has such little value, as arguably its the back bone and USP for STW!

This place is becoming increasingly toxic and we’ve lost a load of good people as a result.

It’s not just gender issues either.

I think there's a lot of this. I remember when TJ was banned for basically being argumentative although not really personal - I don't see why anyone would stoop to that level.

I guess as others have said, you are clearly the barometer on this issue, bearing in mind how this is making you feel I know I'll be on the lookout and reporting things. There's no reason to exclude anybody from this community, but there are plenty of people in every walk of life willing to dump their problems on others, and you're sometimes on the receiving end of that and it's not right.

Now can we get back to arguing over the correct wheel size (29"), whether ebikes are OK (I'm agnostic on that one) and whether you can ever really be over-biked?

I genuinely struggle to understand what people get out of these kinds of posts.

Why does it matter so much to them to put another human being down?

I’ve been a relentless piss-taker on here and have probably said some things that are pretty near the knuckle but if anyone can show me one of my posts that contains genuine malice then I’d delete my account there and then.

Remember for every arseohle, there is a good person. the arseholes just stand out more.

also recall that some people genuinely don't realise they're being arseholes, they're just too fixated on their own worries.

I know in the past I've posted things which have offended you Rach, and that was never my intention - I genuinely do try not to be offensive to anyone who doesn't deserve it (*puffins like the BNP and UKIppers can * right off though), so for the fact that I offended you I apologise, but please know that I like you

Just to add, I think it’s a wider problem not just within STW. I see so much aggression and hatred nowadays. I have heard of people being verbally and physically assaulted because they voted to leave the EU. I see constant passive aggressive postings on Facebook relating to Brexit. Hell we even get EU leaders talking about ‘special places in hell’. The world is losing respect, respect for each other’s decisions, choices and beliefs and I think it’s a much poorer place because of it.

Very interesting.

Ok I had no idea you were trans, ive noticed that you signed off as Rachel so I guessed you are a girl. It doesn’t matter to me if I’m honest. Now theres a couple of things here. The first is this is the internet with lots of people from many walks of life. While the “don’t be a dick” rule applies im afraid that in life there are always going to be some people that are dicks. You cant get away from this. If these people are abusive then that’s one thing and that should not be tolerated at all. If they are expressing their views then that’s another. I think the advice of ignore them is valid. By saying you don’t need advice and that everything has to change to make you happy it makes you as bad as them imo.

Some people say things for a reaction. I cant even pretend to know what you have, gone, are going through. But I think youll find that everyone on here will defend to the death for people to do what suits them as long as it doesn’t effect others.

Im sorry that your feeling pushed out. That’s not good.

Why should it be upon the forum to work out what it needs to do? , have comments been made directly to yourself ?

I don't see why that matters. If the tone of the forum is making people feel excluded then we should all be having a think about the kind of place we want this to be.

I don’t see why that matters. If the tone of the forum is making people feel excluded then we should all be having a think about the kind of place we want this to be.

Are we excluding the excluders then?

I don't do social media, only web fora on cycling and climbing and the nearest I get is reading the comments under Youtube videos, which I find absolutely shocking. I simply can't believe the trash that people post, the hatred, the venom, the spite. If that's what people feel empowered to post on social media, we are heading in a very dark direction. There is already evidence of social media interfering in elections and inflaming gang wars in London, so what next?

Whilst I would not want to defend any of the more bigoted or spiteful posts that have been made, I do often feel that several people on here are genuinely confused re sex, sexuality, gender,... etc. The whole area is relatively new and whilst some people have been dealing with the issues for all their lives, many are only now beginning to consider them. I have seen posted “go and read about it”, but sometimes I think people need to talk things through with others. It may take time to see the change people want/expect, but things will progress.
(Yesterday there was a hoo-hah about the use of an offensive word. When I was young you would hear that word daily, it has taken decades for that change.)

Are we excluding the excluders then?

What do you think?

Rachel, you’ve mentioned that you are trans in the past and, to be honest, it does not bear any relevance to how I would respond, Internet or f2f. One treats everyone with dignity and respect. Keyboard warriors who want to win the Internet should just be pitied and ignored.

And this is definitely not a microcosm of society! It is a microcosm of middle aged, mainly male ABC1’s with an overly healthy professional interest in IT, who like riding bikes. Sometimes off road.

I always read your insightful comments and can tell the conviction with which you write.

If people are deliberately setting out to discriminate or upset others they should banned for a month. Repeat offenders get a permanent ban.

Gender issues are a minefield and for some, difficult to comprehend. That does not excuse them from being a dick though. Life is simple, treat others they way you want to be treated.

 the nearest I get is reading the comments under Youtube videos, which I find absolutely shocking. I simply can’t believe the trash that people post, the hatred, the venom, the spite.

And this place is a veritable haven of considered and reflective posting by comparison.

FWIW I think the mods and STWers have got it about right. On 'Trans' issues we are 10,000,000 times more woke than Mumsnet.

If people see posts that are personal, abusive or break the rules we all need to hit the report button.

Why should it be upon the forum to work out what it needs to do? , have comments been made directly to yourself ?

The list of excuses and justifications from those who perpetuate these microaggressions, in race, in gender identity , in sexual orientation is long and you can never tie them down. There is always a loophole of some sort which turns the offence back on the the offended or the complainant. Not coincidentally, the perpetrators are often straight white males who enjoy a privileged position sin society, for whom the greatest discrimination experienced is to be called privileged.
I spent a lot of effort on here calling out racism or cultural insensitivity when i saw it, not once do i remember anyone recognising that what they said might not be OK, and only once did someone accept that they might change their behaviour in certain circumstances. The mods have not been supportive on occasion posting racially insensitive material themselves.

If people see posts that are personal, abusive or break the rules we all need to hit the report button.

how about a reconsideration of the rules?

ransos

Subscriber
What do you think?

I think I asked you a question and didn't get an answer

Yesterday there was a hoo-hah about the use of an offensive word. When I was young you would hear that word daily, it has taken decades for that change.

where was that?

Firstly I find your contributions valuable. You have taught me things about trans issues I needed to know. There are complexities in that the needs and rights of different vulnerable people can appear to be mutually exclusive ie woman's refuges. However one thing you showed me was that I do not know enough to have an informed opinion so I tend to stay out of these debates

On moderation there has been a clampdown and one effect of this is it makes it harder to call people out for nasty posts. I was warned for calling someone out recently and because of my history on here I will always be on a shortly peg and this makes me reluctant to call people out as I seem unable to do so without falling foul of the mods

Report the posts Rachel and don't give up on us please

Some people are dicks unfortunately, and recently seem to be abusing freedom of speech, to justify continuing being a dick.
I know it's easy for someone else to say Rachel, but all you can do ignore it (I know you shouldn't have to) and carry on.

Whilst I would not want to defend any of the more bigoted or spiteful posts that have been made, I do often feel that several people on here are genuinely confused re sex, sexuality, gender,… etc. The whole area is relatively new and whilst some people have been dealing with the issues for all their lives, many are only now beginning to consider them.

Really? What's to be confused about? Just because someone can't imagine feeling a particular way about their own gender/sexuality/whatever shouldn't prevent them from understanding that someone else does feel that way. Nobody has a problem with people asking questions to try and understand something - the issue is using dismissive/derogatory terms that make people feel bad or excluded.

I'm really sorry that Rachel is upset about all the trans posts on here however being "woke" and accepting everything the TRA's say is not canon. There are debates to be had especially about gender recognition, self id, transgenders in sport etc.

You don't have to accept the "born in the wrong body" mantra to be kind, accepting and understanding of the no doubt invidious position of transgendered people.

I’ll admit to having read threads and posts by the usual suspects you list in your post (rene59, technicallyinept and geetee in particular) and thought “what does Rachel think about this?”. I doubt they realise that ther are trans people using the forum, but more scarily I don’t think they care.

Rachel,

I'm sorry if anything I've posted has upset you.

I am concerned at:
- the level of hatred directed at gender critical women on social media (twitter especially)
- the sports situation (especially in youth sports e.g. Andrea Yardwood),
- real (not literal) violence when women want to meet (bombs threats, masked protesters),
- twitter bans/suspensions for people (including transsexuals) for such wrongthink as quoting the definition of rape in UK law etc etc.
- the 'transing' of confused kids (many of which would grow up to be gay)

I cannot believe you support this either.

Anyone who thinks I'm anti trans, you are deliberately misconstruing what I'm saying.

how about a reconsideration of the rules?

Why not? What new rule would you suggest?

wrongthink

Your duckspeak is ungood.

What some middle aged muppets on a bike forum say is a shit metric by which to measure your worth

you are deliberately misconstruing what I’m saying.

or maybe what you're saying isn't what you think you're saying?

You only have to glance through the thread Rachel refers to in her OP to see that there are some on here as thick as the average Youtube commenter..

Sadly, this forum is a microcosm of society. As society has become more intolerant, so has the forum.

Utter nonsense, this place is incredibly liberal, open and inclusive. If I walk away from my desk and up to the mechy workshop*, within 5 minutes I'll have heard some form of racism, gay jibes or other nonsense, this place is nothing like that.

In general, society is way more tolerant than it's ever been, but you get the odd dick here and there, fact of life I'm afraid.

*Thankfully, these kinda attitudes are dying out, but they're still about.

should we have a sweepstake?

Why not? What new rule would you suggest?

I would suggest the following is more clearly defined as a rule rather than an ethos

The ethos of this forum must be one of mutual respect for everyone who uses it.

and some clearer operationalisaton of

when the argument becomes heated or abuse begins to creep in, then you will have crossed the line. If you don’t step back from it then you will likely be moderated.

which appears to allow abuse, so long you step back. Also, why only 'likely'?

you are deliberately misconstruing what I’m saying.

or maybe what you’re saying isn’t what you think you’re saying?

Such as? Though maybe this thread is not the place, perhaps someone would like to start another personal attack thread.

Whilst I would not want to defend any of the more bigoted or spiteful posts that have been made, I do often feel that several people on here are genuinely confused re sex, sexuality, gender,… etc. The whole area is relatively new and whilst some people have been dealing with the issues for all their lives, many are only now beginning to consider them. I have seen posted “go and read about it”, but sometimes I think people need to talk things through with others. It may take time to see the change people want/expect, but things will progress.

I'm going to out myself here, in more ways than one. My youngest (12yo) is having severe gender identity issues and we are part of the way down the process of a FTM transition. I personally don't really know how I feel about this other than i love them dearly and will do anything to protect them. Rachel has provided some sage advice already and i know I can turn to her again at any time, and I'm saddened if she feels she is not welcome here. I too have read some stuff recently on here and thought whether I need to step away.

I'll also out myself in the sense that even as someone who has inevitably read and spoken to more sources about this than i suspect many on here, I still haven't much of a clue about navigating my way in this area without causing offence, but I also think I can spot someone who 'doesn't know better' and someone whose intent is to stir shit up. And I think some on here fall into that category, I'm afraid.

I would suggest the following is more clearly defined as a rule rather than an ethos The ethos of this forum must be one of mutual respect for everyone who uses it.

I'm all for that, care to offer an example of something that has been allowed in the (say) the brain thread that would break a 'rule' version of "showing mutual respect". (The deleted stuff already breaks the rules and is gone.) If that became a rule the political threads would go, which would be a good thing IMHO.

which appears to allow abuse, so long you step back. Also, why only ‘likely’?

I'm all in favour of that. Abuse is wrong and should be reported and removed. I think you'd be hard pushed to find instances of reported abuse that haven't been removed. Maybe we're all a bit slow in reporting stuff.

Here was me thinking the thread title was going to be about some of the things Rachael has mentioned in the past.....

There are lots of opinions on here I find offensive but that doesn’t mean they should be shut down or closed off.

It's the same away from the internet too, no matter who you are you're always going to hear things you don't like or upset you at some point in life. It might sound harsh but you just need to learn to deal with that and ignore it.

If you can't do that you're just going to waste your life getting upset about things that are out of your control!

I’m all in favour of that. Abuse is wrong and should be reported and removed. I think you’d be hard pushed to find instances of reported abuse that haven’t been removed. Maybe we’re all a bit slow in reporting stuff.

lots of the racism stuff
abusive terminology, abusive language

lots of the racism stuff
abusive terminology, abusive language

You haven't provided any examples. Find me something racist, I'll report it, I bet it's gone by tomorrow.

If you want rule changes you really need to be specific. It sounds to me like the stuff you'd ban is already banned.

"Adieu, farewell, titty bye etc etc."

Some good has come out of this already .

I'm not really on here enough anymore to suss it, but I'm assuming rene59 used to be on here under a different alias?

Anyway seems like he's flouncing, sincerely feel free to never come back! Your posts have caught my eyes over the last few weeks as bigoted, racist and narrow-minded. You'll not be missed.

You haven’t provided any examples. Find me something racist, I’ll report it, I bet it’s gone by tomorrow.

It's been a while, but it wasn't when i reported it. Perhaps you have more influence

I was not aware you were Trans, and it should not matter, i simply thought you were a cool lady that rode motorbikes and liked Morocco, both things i've been lucky enough to enjoy also.

So just carry on being you, ignore the idiots unless they cross a line, then report them. Unfortunately there will always be fools, and any forum whatever it is based around, from mountain biking to knitting will be a mirror on the world in parts.

I have always enjoyed your posts and you have more than most to contribute, so please keep doing so.

I also think I can spot someone who ‘doesn’t know better’

Who hopefully can be educated

and someone whose intent is to stir shit up.

I know it's hard but they are best ignored.

There are clearly some blinkered views on the thread in question but I suspect it's largely ignorance and a touch of arrogance perhaps, rather than malice.

Utter nonsense

“Adieu, farewell, titty bye etc etc.”

Some good has come out of this already .

Ok look. Can we just leave the casual nastiness please? On a thread condemning casual nastiness?

Saying that a poster's opinion is 'utter nonsense' is caustic, corrosive and unpleasant. Those words are completely dismissive, and they can only be said to dismiss the contribution and belittle the contributor. Which makes people defensive and upset. I don't want to live in a world (or use a forum) where everyone is dismissing each other all the time.

Likewise the snide comments about someone leaving. Not at all helpful, and it just spreads nastiness. If you make comments like this you are being part of the problem.

It’s been a while, but it wasn’t when i reported it. Perhaps you have more influence

Ok, I'll take your word for it. You've still failed to provide an example of anything that needs changing, which suggests to me they've got it right.

I think STW mods have got it about right.

Ok, today STW has made one person on one side of a debate cry, and one person on the other side of a debate flounce. That doesn't mean there's a problem with the site or the modding, that's just forums.

What has surprised me in recent weeks and months, is not just the output of the usual agitators and their crusade against women and lgbt persons, but the amount of 70's style casual bigotry that others have injected into those threads.

Along with a defense of the agitators, by pretending that their bodies of posting history don't exist, and trying to isolate every single post they make as the only one on the subject.

But that is IMO where modding becomes very difficult. There was, for example, one regular poster who expressed deep concerns about sex crimes, each post he made could on the face of it appear quite reasonable, and frankly when taken individually nothing to report to the mods. But, when looking at the body of his posts he only highlighted and railed against sex crimes committed by muslim migrants, he had no interest in the victims or the crimes other than to use them as a weapon against a whole group. Very hard for the mods to pick up on such things though.

is 'flounce' a comment designed to belittle 😉

Yes, it is.