[Closed] ISIS: Why we hate you.

I always thought it was because the bearings we're badly sealed.

bookmarks for later

I'm sure it's useful to know from a tactical and strategic viewpoint in the project to wipe the mother****ers out but, to be perfectly honest - what "jihadists" think?

Dont give a shit.

Next.

I always thought it was because the bearings we're badly sealed.

I like the picture of the people queuing up to vote - the women have been pixelated out of the shot.

But yeah, its all religious superstition that belongs in the dark ages.

Mods, can you move this to the bike forum?

Woppit if you don't understand them how are you meant to stop the conflict?

I found this quite an insight into their origins

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p02gyz6b/adam-curtis-bitter-lake

I keep meaning to rewatch it.

The world would be a better place if we all moved back to square taper.

OP thanks, will listen later

Woppit if you don't understand them how are you meant to stop the conflict?

I agree its better to understand your enemy than not. We understood Hitler wanted to dominate the world (sound familiar ?) so the appropriate action was to crush Germany militarily and ensure they could not re-arm.

but by crushing hitler we opened a whole new can of worms, kind of like when we crushed the Taliban?

but by crushing hitler we opened a whole new can of worms

It was better than what was in Hitlers can surely?

I liked them better when they were the plucky mujaheddin.

but by crushing hitler we opened a whole new can of worms

Brexit worms

but by crushing hitler we opened a whole new can of worms

The European Union ?
Them making much better cars than us ?
East German althetics doping ?
The Hoff singing "Freedom" on the Berlin Wall ?

All this Isis stuff does make Boat Race day a bit awkward. 😐

It just goes to show how the power of brainwashing people can have drastic consequences. Members of ISIS are all narcissists - an egocentrical grandiose attitude that they are better than everyone else

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-35695648 ]This is a great article[/url] by Jim Muir, well worth a read.

The Hoff singing "Freedom" on the Berlin Wall ?

Nope, Baywatch.

Interesting piece and well worth the 50 minutes. Funnily enough when Insay similar things to the this I get all sorts of "Islamphobe / racist" taunts. He's pretty scathing about this cult/branch of Islam and he makes very clear there is no possible negotiated solution, only a military defeat which makes the notion of a caliphate preposterous in reality, it cannot exist. There can be no "cease-fire" or "live and let live" as the only acceptable outcome to IS is the calpihate covering the entire world.

zippykona - Member

I liked them better when they were the plucky mujaheddin.

There's always one, bragging that they were a fan before they were famous and how they don't like their later work.

At the risk of being branded a supremacist, I've spent 30 years travelling around the Middle East and Africa and I've come slowly to the conclusion that all religion feeds on ignorance and lack of education. Even intelligent Arabs I've met are un-worldly and ill-experienced in life. ISIS appeals to young men who have little culture in their lives beyond vacuous MTV and the internet yet their bodies are flooded with testosterone and energy, so Jihadist Islam gives them a goal and a common purpose. The really extreme jihadists are actually pathalogically unbalanced.

I remember hearing about a young Britsh guy who embraced Islam because the purity of the religion appealed to him. But he said that his biggest disappointment was the low intellect of the Imans; at Friday prayers he said there was no attempt to get to grips with the place of Muslims in modern Britain and instead, the Iman rambled on for an hour about the length of the beard, how much ankle a woman could show, fasting and other trivia.

I have brought up the issue of daylight hours in the north during Ramadan with intelligent Muslim customers, a nice lightweight subject, which I understand the British Council of Mosques is trying to discuss with Mecca. But my fiends just block me and quote the Koran at me as they are incapable of seeing any point of view outside what they have been taught.

Extreme vetting, it's the only way...

Even intelligent Arabs I've met are un-worldly and ill-experienced in life. ISIS appeals to young men who have little culture in their lives beyond vacuous MTV and the internet yet their bodies are flooded with testosterone and energy,

Having worked around a fair few lovely people from the Middle East, I'd say some of this rings true. But remove 'ISIS' from the above statement and much the same could be said for our 'Merican cousins, or anyone else for that matter who comes from a largely inward looking culture. Not sure religion or specifically Middle Eastern religion has much to do with it.

I would suggest that you read VS Naipaul "Among the believers" as an insight to the scale of the cultural challenge

The really extreme jihadists are actually pathalogically unbalanced.

Extreme person is unbalanced, shock.

But remove 'ISIS' from the above statement and much the same could be said for our 'Merican cousins,

Ahem.. SOME of our American cousins...

Backward and inward looking people exist in every country and culture... Including ours...

"I agree its better to understand your enemy than not. We understood Hitler wanted to dominate the world (sound familiar ?) so the appropriate action was to crush Germany militarily and ensure they could not re-arm."

The Nazis were defeated, but the ideology of far-right fascist extremism wasn't. And it's rapidly on the rise again in Europe and elsewhere. Which is why militarily 'defeating' ISIS/Daesh won't solve the problem, as the ideology will remain in the minds of some. And even if ISIS in their current form are crushed, the same extremist ideology will only pop up later, somewhere else.

The key to peace is to work to understand what creates such an ideology in the first place, and what factors feed it's rise in popularity. It's this, which the West is currently failing to do. And unless a radical change in the way we think and deal with such issues comes about, we won't see the end of such forms of extremist behaviour.

It is extremely thought provoking. As are all of Harris's podcasts (and books) are.

For some time he has been arguing with what he calls "regressive" liberals who refuse to believe that Jihadists hate us for the reasons that they claim, and constantly blaming their behaviour on other factors, In spite of Jihadists making these reasons clear. This document outlines in detail specifically what Harris has been claiming.

The Nazis were defeated, but the ideology of far-right fascist extremism wasn't. And it's rapidly on the rise again in Europe and elsewhere. Which is why militarily 'defeating' ISIS/Daesh won't solve the problem, as the ideology will remain in the minds of some. And even if ISIS in their current form are crushed, the same extremist ideology will only pop up later, somewhere else.

peoples ideologies will always be on a spectrum, there will always be the far left and the far right, the issue is the numbers following and the cultural acceptability. The key advantage of military defeat is that the genocide on the ground stops and the money stops flowing as easily

The key to peace is to work to understand what creates such an ideology in the first place, and what factors feed it's rise in popularity. It's this, which the West is currently failing to do. And unless a radical change in the way we think and deal with such issues comes about, we won't see the end of such forms of extremist behaviour.

Islam is mimicking the Christian journey, currently they are in the 16th Century in 500 hundred years time they will have empty mosques and an aging congregation. At the moment they are killing heretics and fighting to establish the power of their religion displacing secular power and the unbelievers

I suppose we can stand back to get an understanding of their perspective whilst letting slavery and genocide go unchallenged lest we feed the popularity of the ideology

"Islam is mimicking the Christian journey, currently they are in the 16th Century"

And this is a perfect example of the kind of blinkered Western attitudes which are part of the problem; seeing 'Islam', an entire religion and all it's many derivative cultures, as 'backwards', feeds into an ideology of moral and intellectual superiority which in turn, feeds xenophobia and fear.

I too have been travelling in Middle East for business and holidays for 30 years also in North Africa and in Malaysia and Indonesia. There certainly is a lack of "wordliness" amongst many and that is partly of their chosing as many reject our view of worldliness and our view of progress including secularism and tolerance. Its very complicated as Islam has many factions and its wrong to see Arabs, North Africans (Maghreb), sub -Saharan Africans, South Asian and Far Eastern Muslims as the same as there are huge differences. Its also wrong to say they all see themselevs as brothers, there are many divisions within the Middle East never mind more broadly.

The real issue I have and I think the West has is second and third generation immigrants (and coverts) who reject the Western values of their citizenship / land of birth and are drawn to extreme ideas which off a fantasy

I have brought up the issue of daylight hours in the north during Ramadan with intelligent Muslim customers, a nice lightweight subject, which I understand the British Council of Mosques is trying to discuss with Mecca. But my fiends just block me and quote the Koran at me as they are incapable of seeing any point of view outside what they have been taught.

Because they are narcissists. Seriously, google it. You can't tell a narcissist anything that contradicts their own opinion.

Wish particular worms are you referring to?

Let me guess

[img] [/img]

🙄

The poster probably thinks that if we'd have let Hitler get on with it, there would be world peace now - without any of those pesky Jooos ruining it for everyone. Probably the same kind of person who opposed our intervention in Kosovo as well.

Isn't this situation what stockpiles of megaatons and all out thermonuclear obliteration were created for...

oh and trident

Just listened to the pod cast and his view is pretty chilling.

And this is a perfect example of the kind of blinkered Western attitudes which are part of the problem; seeing 'Islam', an entire religion and all it's many derivative cultures, as 'backwards', feeds into an ideology of moral and intellectual superiority which in turn, feeds xenophobia and fear.

This is a perfect example of a load of tripe

The point of the post is that the Christian nations had a power struggle between church and state and a religious leadership which led Christians into killing Christians in defence of the one true version of their faith. The parallels are there and remove any cultural superiority in this context as they even gifted us the ancestors of Nigel Farage

The only people who demonstrate moral and intellectual superiority are the secular left who despise their own history

It was Doug Stanhope that suggested a very easy solution.

Take the jihadists to Vegas for the weekend. Comp them at the belagio and ply them with drugs, strippers and booze.

See how quickly they want to go back to their old life.

As much as that^ is a joke, it's basically right. The way to solve this problem is massive investment in the Middle East. Import western education, which brings with it western, secular culture. Couple that with investment to improve the quality of life in the region up to European levels, and watch religion and radicalisation melt away.

Yeah, like that totally worked in ****stan. They couldn't even carry out basic vaccination programs without being accused of being the CIA.

Secularism will happen on its own when everyone realises how shit the theists have made their lives. Meanwhile we just need to keep playing whack a mole with Reapers, to keep the terrorist cells on their toes. God, imagine the outrage over here if we start supporting non veil wearing middle eastern women (eg lots of Iranians) from certain leftists and our homebred conservative Muslim social justice warriors......oh the cultural imperialism of universal values...

Just listened to the pod cast and his view is pretty chilling.

but it is not exactly old news is it - I can't believe people are surprised, talk to any strongly religious person and see how intolerant they are of anyone elses view.

Add in material in their 'good books' that can easily be twisted by clever people into invoking hate, just think if there wasn't a new testament and people followed the teachings in the old testament?

The blog says that the wests meddling in the middle east is not a factor but it surely is, it provides a foothold for people to start the indoctrination into that way of thinking.

Yeah, like that totally worked in ****stan. They couldn't even carry out basic vaccination programs without being accused of being the CIA.

****stan still has a large number of disenfranchised, poor and uneducated people. I think those are ideal conditions to promote radical religion and violent struggle, so Stanhope's satirical analysis is probably closest to the mark.

"This is a perfect example of a load of tripe"

It's not. You claimed that:

"Islam is mimicking the Christian journey, currently they are in the 16th Century"

Which is naiive and ignorant at best, and displays a woeful lack of understanding of Islam and it's followers.

For example, this is the mayor of one of the world's leading capital cities. He is a Muslim. Is he part of the 16th century?

[img] [/img]

No, he's not. And neither are the vast majority of the world's 1.6 billion Muslims. Some of whom have even done things like become astronauts!

And I do hope you realise the irony of claiming Islam is in the 16th century, whilst sat at a computer which owes at least part of it's ability to operate, to algebra. 😆

Yeah, like that totally worked in ****stan. They couldn't even carry out basic vaccination programs without being accused of being the CIA.

[url= https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jul/11/cia-fake-vaccinations-osama-bin-ladens-dna ]They may have had a point.[/url]

For example, this is the mayor of one of the world's leading capital cities. He is a Muslim. Is he part of the 16th century?

He is not a muslim according to the doctrine that ISIS follow, in fact I think he is regarded as worse than an aetheist as he is subverting their version of Islam.

We need a test that clearly identifies someone with sympathy to their view - show them a couple involved in sodomy for example - if they react they execute them - won't matter to them or their relatives as they have been martyred, in fact they will be glad of it. Win-win all round.

He is a Muslim. Is he part of the 16th century?

for the purposes of your argument you are conflating "Islam" with "Muslim"

And I do hope you realise the irony of claiming Islam is in the 16th century, whilst sat at a computer which owes at least part of it's ability to operate, to algebra.

No irony and lets move forward a bit from the 16th Century. Staying with Harris who states:

"Consider: According to the United Nations’ Arab Human Development Reports, less than 2% of Arabs have access to the Internet. Arabs represent 5% of the world’s population and yet produce only 1% of the world’s books, most of them religious. In fact, Spain translates more books into Spanish each year than the entire Arab world has translated into Arabic since the ninth century"

The Muslim guy that was attending our table in the overwater restaurant in the Maldives had this justification for believing in his God - "the sun comes up in the morning and it goes down at night, who else but Allah could cause that"

The piece certainly wasn't a surprise to me, it was absolutely consistent with my view.

ISIS are not motivated by Western intervention in the Middle East. They are motivated to impose their version of Islam on everyone including other Muslims, Christians, Jews and Atheiests. As the piece says whilst they opposed to Jews they do not care for the plight of the Palestinians as they are not true Muslims in their view. They do wish to incite Jihad against the West as it's their religious duty to do so and to die in the course of Jihad guanatees paradise.

The Muslim guy that was attending our table in the overwater restaurant in the Maldives had this justification for believing in his God - "the sun comes up in the morning and it goes down at night, who else but Allah could cause that"

TurnerGuy - Member

The Muslim guy that was attending our table in the overwater restaurant in the Maldives had this justification for believing in his God - "the sun comes up in the morning and it goes down at night, who else but Allah could cause that"

A belief in God to explain the existence of the universe and all that exists within it is fairly widespread. In fact I would say that it was central to all religions, and over 90% of the world's population claim to have some sort of religion.

So what else did you learn during your trip to the Maldives, apart from the fact that people who are religious believe in a God who created things ?

So what else did you learn during your trip to the Maldives, apart from the fact that people with religious believe in a God who created things ?

That he had a pretty simplistic view of life which wasn't helped by a lack of any education that might cause him to question it.

The Muslim guy who cleaned our room expressed a somewhat veiled delight that Islam was taking over the western world, which somewhat shocked me in the way he expressed it. He was watching some religious nut shouting the odds in their parliament on the TV news at the time.

Did you piss yourself laughing?

he was also complaining about being tired from having to get up so early to pray before preparing the restuarant, then serve breakfast, then pray again, then serve lunch, then pray again, etc - 5 times a day.

I did ask him how he kew he had chosen the right god and how he would feel if it turned out that it was the wrong god and he had wasted all that time.

I also pointed out that the two young guys on the table next to us were on their honeymoon, which shocked him.

That he had a pretty simplistic view of life which wasn't helped by a lack of any education that might cause him to question it.

And yet you must be aware that some highly educated people are Muslims. They share exactly the same religious beliefs, including stuff about the sun/universe, as those who lack any education.

****stan still has a large number of disenfranchised, poor and uneducated people. I think those are ideal conditions to promote radical religion and violent struggle, so Stanhope's satirical analysis is probably closest to the mark.

Most of the world is poor, the only ones that have an issue with religious terrorism are the Islamic ones. People don't blow themselves and other civilians up, or gun down school children because they are poor. To suggest that they do is quite frankly offensive to anyone from a third world country that hasn't seen that kind of violence. Again this is like the 6th time I've posted this on here......

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2015/s4327230.htm

nothing....to.... do.... with.... being.... poor.

"for the purposes of your argument you are conflating "Islam" with "Muslim""

😆

Well, seeing as how a Muslim is someone who follows/practices Islam, then yes. Why, do you have an alternative interpretation of this?

Sam Harris is interesting, but seems to appeal very much to those who seek validation of their own bigotry. He concentrates on carefully selecting pieces of information that support his own views, and conveniently ignores other stuff which may contradict them. His critique, whilst at times reasonable and valid, is also flawed, narrow-minded and simplistic in it's view. But he's entitled to his opinion, as is anyone else. He talks from the position of an outsider, without having a broad empirical experience of Islam, it's followers and cultural practices.

Research has shown that the vast majority of the world's 1.6 billion Muslims don't support ISIS. Sensationalist gutter press headlines such as '1 in 5 UK Muslims support ISIS' are just Islamophobic bile. Yes, 'Islam' has to face issues within itself, amongst a very small minority of it's own followers (as does pretty much every major religion), but to suggest somehow that Islam is 'backwards', in the '16th century' or other such rhetoric, is just blinkered nonsense.

Turner guy that sounds like some sort of Fawlty Towers reimagining. Did you really go on holiday to bait Muslims? Very strange conversation to be having with a stranger in a foreign land, not least when they busy serving you (the rich westerner).

Did you really go on holiday to bait Muslims?

As a good STW Uber Atheist he has to show his dedication to his Faith. 🙂

Very strange conversation to be having with a stranger in a foreign land, not least when they busy serving you (the rich westerner).

he was the one complaining about how tired he was from all that praying, so I was just having some banter with him.

Perhaps I was treating him as just a person who happened to be serving my meals.

He concentrates on carefully selecting pieces of information that support his own views

there wasn't really any information in that ISIS brochure that supoprted any other view.

And yet you must be aware that some highly educated people are Muslims. They share exactly the same religious beliefs, including stuff about the sun/universe, as those who lack any education.

Mass hysteria...

"there wasn't really any information in that ISIS brochure that supoprted any other view."

He's offering a critique of Islam, by using ISIS propaganda. A bit like doing a critique of UK politics by only reading a Britain First leaflet.

He's offering a critique of Islam, by using ISIS propaganda. A bit like doing a critique of UK politics by only reading a Britain First leaflet.

If Britain first had it's own army and controled it's own state then sure, it would be a bit like that. But it doesn't, so it's nothing like that. It's more like offering a critique of one of the interpretations of Islam. A pretty popular one which attracts like minded people from all over the world.

Why, do you have an alternative interpretation of this?

I'll try to help. Islam is a belief system. Muslims tend to be people.

without having a broad empirical experience of Islam, it's followers and cultural practices.

I suspect he is something of an expert. I dont think you are.

He concentrates on carefully selecting pieces of information that support his own views, and conveniently ignores other stuff which may contradict them

You mean like your comment about Algebra? Or your introduction of Sadiq Khan to infer that if he is Muslim he must see the world in the same way as a Isis Jihadist. You mean that type of stuff?

Research has shown that the vast majority of the world's 1.6 billion Muslims don't support ISIS

Harris cites his, can you do the same?

He's offering a critique of Islam, by using ISIS propaganda

Have you read any other work by Harris or listened to any other podcasts?

TurnerGuy - Member

"And yet you must be aware that some highly educated people are Muslims. They share exactly the same religious beliefs, including stuff about the sun/universe, as those who lack any education".

Mass hysteria...

Well since it is clear that you like baiting Muslim waiters who allegedly lack education whilst you are on foreign trips would you show that same sort of attitude towards, say, a Muslim consultant who was examining you during a hospital appointment......would you engage in idle chitchat about their religion?

Or do reserve your sanctimonious and contemptuous attitude for the less educated ?

I notice he was very dismissive of the view that Dabiq is propaganda, but I don't understand why. It IS propaganda and seems to be working on him at any rate.

vickypea
I notice he was very dismissive of the view that Dabiq is propaganda, but I don't understand why. It IS propaganda and seems to be working on him at any rate.

Harris has spoken at length about western perspectives on Islamism, ie that it's delusion, that it's the product of poverty/environment or the lack of education or modernity or just that radicalised individuals are mentally disturbed etc etc.

He's not dismissing that Dabiq is propaganda, he's simply stating that because it's propaganda doesn't negate it's message.

During WW2 the allies created propaganda to collect metal or to save food to aid the war effort. Positive propaganda is designed to show your side in a good light. ISIS have released this manifesto to show themselves in a good light, to attract people to their cause.

Whilst it reads like the most insane black propaganda designed to besmirch and speak ill of ISIS it is in fact expressing what they believe.

Is this the same Sam Harris who suggested that torture might be ethical in the "war on terror"

why yes, [url= http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sam-harris/in-defense-of-torture_b_8993.html ]yes it is...[/url]

He's offering a critique of Islam, by using ISIS propaganda. A bit like doing a critique of UK politics by only reading a Britain First leaflet.

he's doing a critique of jihadists I think you'll find, it's right there in the title of the blog.

I'll try to help. Islam is a belief system. Muslims tend to be people.

Muslims are people that partake in that belief system...

nickc

Is this the same Sam Harris who suggested that torture might be ethical in the "war on terror"

why yes, yes it is...

By citing the ticking bomb scenario. Yes. He's stated on numerous occaisions that he's against torture except in the most specific and dire circumstance that would mean it was wholly unethical to not torture someone you knew to be guilty to save innocent lives.

Another example where Harris is discussing broad philosophical concepts which get deliberately obscured by his detractors to "Sam Harris is pro torture" or Sam Harris hates muslims".

OK, I'm going to take with a pinch of salt the views of some-one who decides moral issues by watching repeats of 24, or the "By citing the ticking bomb scenario" defence.

nickc
OK, I'm going to take with a pinch of salt the views of some-one who decides moral issues by watching repeats of 24, or the "By citing the ticking bomb scenario" defence.

So nick, you are on holidays in Australia. It's 40 degrees. Your car is stolen from a petrol station, your infant child is still in the car.

A well known criminal is seen on cctv and by witnesses stealing the car. He's 6'4, Samoan, and has a blonde afro.

An hour later police arrest the 6'4 Samoan, but he denies stealing the car. Your child will die if he doesn't tell police the location of the car soon.

Should they beat him up to extract this information in order to save your child's life?

Well since it is clear that you like baiting Muslim waiters

As I said I asked him a question - bit of stretch between that and baiting.

Or do reserve your sanctimonious and contemptuous attitude for the less educated ?

no, I just reserve it for socialists and Corbyn supporters...

Should they beat him up to extract this information in order to save your child's life?

I close my eyes and by the power of fairy-dust turn the Samoan into a unicorn and superman rescues my child....

Should they beat him up to extract this information in order to save your child's life?

if there is a positive id on the cctv, as witnesses cannot be relied on, then the case is a lot stronger.

nickc - Member

I close my eyes and by the power of fairy-dust turn the Samoan into a unicorn and superman rescues my child....

I was looking for a yes or no answer but this is Harris' example of the type of scenario where it would be unethical not to torture.

but this is Harris' example of the type of scenario where it would be unethical not to torture.

indeed, it doesn't make it any less revenge-porn fantasist nonsense just because it's couched in semi-academic mumbo-jumbo though. It's still the plot-line of a half arsed Steven Seagull B movie.

nickc

indeed, it doesn't make it any less revenge-porn fantasist nonsense just because it's couched in semi-academic mumbo-jumbo though. It's still the plot-line of a half arsed Steven Seagull B movie.

Except that it actually happened, and it's referenced by the Stanford encyclopedia of philosophy as an example of the ticking bomb torture scenario.