[Closed] Is this pandering yet again...Ramadan

So let's call it that then?

Yep, they should be like good christians and buy their kids lots of chocolate at Christmas and Easter. I wonder which options is worse for their kids health?

Modern RE is essentially a philosophy and ethics course.

"Back in the day", in "normal" state schools, i.e. not RC or C of E, was there much praying and stuff? I always assumed there wasn't much?

I went ot a c of E primary and refused to go to the secondary.

That explains the spelling I suppose 😉

😆

Perhaps atheists have the dispassionate cold perspective of people who think both religions are wrong, so they feel well positioned to call out what they might see as entitlement and hypocrisy, that members of the faiths may not see from their positions?

More likely that their minds are closed, which has no place in science either.

Can i get a sight of the syllabus, as laid down by the examboard that proves that point?

Not read it or have a clue if it supports the point but:

http://www.aqa.org.uk/subjects/religious-studies/gcse

Stoatsbrother- I think it i[i]s relevant to bring Christianity into the discussion, since the question in the OP asked if we are pandering to one religious group in a country that is multicultural and not predominantly muslim. Nor is it unexpected that the thread should take such a direction, since it is a logical follow-on to the OP to debate whether Britain is still a Christian country these days, and whether religion of any kind should or should not influence the running of this country.

In answer to the OP, I have no probem with accomodating Ramadan in such a way.

Can i get a sight of the syllabus, as laid down by the examboard that proves that point?

This is the overview of the A level course taught at our place. We call it "philosophy and ethics" but the certificate says "religious studies":

AS Level
This course consists of two modules, each covering two topics that introduce students to the study of Philosophy:
Module 1: Philosophy of Religion
Ancient Greek influences on philosophy of religion;
Judaeo-Christian influences on philosophy of religion;
Traditional arguments for the existence of God;
Challenges to religious belief.
Module 2 – Religious Ethics
Ethical theories;
Applied ethics topics.
A2 Level
Students who choose to continue their study of Philosophy and Ethics will take two further modules:
Module 3 – Philosophy of Religion
Religious language and the meaning of religious statements;
The nature of religious experiences;
The coherence of the concept of God;
Life after death;
Miracles
Module 4 – Religious Ethics
Meta-ethics;
Free will and determinism;
Conscience;
Virtue ethics
Applied ethics topics.

of course it does not support his view and i could have found it myself

Its clearly religious education - only one option does not mention religion in it-as that is what it is termed
[url= http://www.aqa.org.uk/subjects/religious-studies/gcse/religious-studies-a-8062/specification-at-a-glance ]overview here to save a big paste [/url]

We call it "philosophy and ethics" but the certificate says "religious studies":

Reads more like the philosophy of religion should be the proper title.

More likely that their minds are closed, which has no place in science either.

I like to think I'm at least as open-minded as those of a strongly religious nature...

Looks to me like there's a few on here who can't distinguish between accommodating people's religious practices and promotion of religion in schools.
If you're upset by schools having a perfectly reasonable discussion about moving a couple of exam dates then you must be bloody furious about everything else that happens ever. This is not an issue.

Modern RE is essentially a philosophy and ethics course.

Which is how it is now being taught in some schools here in the East Midlands, made the local TV news a while back.

A quick look at ks3 re resources showed an introduction to James and John Stuart Mill’s ethical theories on happiness and Adam Smith's notion of human sympathy.

Ha!

Summer exams will not be fitted around Ramadan, confirm boards: http://gu.com/p/4ftzk

interesting answers !

Would you be happy if you started hearing prayer calls when out shopping etc ? only asking...

Yawn.

bearnecessities - Member
Yawn.

Yawn all you like...Im only asking a question

Our local mosque is probably too far from the town centre to hear it, especially over the noise of buses, etc. I any see why it would be more bothersome than hearing church bells.

Did a Muslim touch you in a bad way when you were a kid or something? You seen very concerned about very minor Islam-based hypothetical changes.

Did you miss my link on the previous page saying that exam times haven't been changed?

miketually - Member
Our local mosque is probably too far from the town centre to hear it, especially over the noise of buses, etc. I any see why it would be more bothersome than hearing church bells.

Did a Muslim touch you in a bad way when you were a kid or something? You seen very concerned about very minor Islam-based hypothetical changes.

Very strange reply...

Would you be happy if you started hearing prayer calls when out shopping etc ? only asking...

Like Christmas Carols you mean?

Very strange reply...

Do I need to rephrase?

Why are you so concerned about two minor events, both of which are not happening?

I any see why it would be more bothersome than hearing church bells

I dont think having prayer calls is a minor change - actually quite worrying for the future of this country, thats my view and yes its only hypothetical at the moment.

Why are you so concerned about two minor events, both of which are not happening?

One is actually happening...

From your post-starting history, I also see that your worried about Halal meat in schools, and Syrian refugees.

miketually - Member
From your post-starting history, I also see that your worried about Halal meat in schools, and Syrian refugees

And your point is ? Its all relevent at the moment or do you not listen to news ? (apart from my hypothetical bit about prayer calls)

You're boring?

(And edit a lot 🙂 )

Would you be happy if you started hearing prayer calls when out shopping etc ?

I have lived in the middle east and some places play it from speakers on lampposts so my threshold to it is probably set higher than most. That said i dont need to be woken at sunrise

[url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_bell ]

[b]A church bell is a bell which is rung in a church either to signify[/b] the hour or [b]the time for worshippers to go to church, perhaps to attend a [/b]wedding, funeral, or other [b]service[/b]

I dont think having prayer calls is a minor change

no ones asking you to read or comment but being as egotistical as you is probably quite hard...

😀

Do you even know the meanings of the words you use?!

And your point is ? Its all relevent at the moment or do you not listen to news ?

There's been a lot in the news recently, but your threads seem to revolve around Muslims rather a lot.

I guess you're saying that because I'm Muslim?

his point is clear there is lots of chat on a various issues and yet he thinks you fixate on muslims

Would you be happy if you started hearing prayer calls when out shopping etc ?

I have lived and still work in Leicester, where the call to prayer can be heard from many a local mosque.
As far as I know, Leicester is still standing and war has not yet broken out...
Get over it dude, people are different, if it bothers you, it's because it bothers YOU, as in, maybe it's not a problem for 99% of us and maybe you should have a word with yourself about why it's a problem for you.

I come from a country where the majority is Muslamic ...

You lot want my answer? They don't have to fast during the exam if fasting put them at a disadvantage. Simple.

Not because they are not religious but circumstances might not allow them to fast so they have no sin.

You lot change to accommodate them?

Do you believe in their God ruling over you?

😆

We spent a few nights in a hotel in Shah Alam that looked onto the Masjid Sultan Salahuddin Abdul Aziz Shah (one of the largest mosques in Southeast Asia). They played the hourly prayer calls through massive speakers on the minarets so they could be heard for miles.

Can't say I was a massive fan, especially with jetlag 😀

But that's the only reason I'd be against them in this country: the noise pollution. The world is noisy enough for me.

Well they only ring the bells on a Friday evening (practice) and Sunday morning (plus the odd wedding) round here.

I live directly opposite a Christian church. They ring the bells every 15 minutes (presumably in case their God loses track of time and forgets to move the sun or something?)

They used to go on right through the night too, but a couple of years ago they sent a nice letter to all the residents saying they could fix that if we all donated money to pay for a special timer, which was terribly nice of them.

Oddly I don't remember hearing a single call to payer in Doha, the rush hour car horns was a different matter.

Like Christmas Carols you mean?

As a Liturgical matter, Christmas Carols aren't strictly sung until Christmas Day itself (which includes midnight mass) although this only applies to formal Church services. Before Christmas, i.e Advent, Advent Carols are sung which are more interesting musically.

I live directly opposite a Christian church. They ring the bells every 15 minutes (presumably in case their God loses track of time and forgets to move the sun or something?)

I think you will find that is the chiming of the clock, like the one in Elizabeth Tower, historically people didn't have watches so relied on clocks in public buildings to tell the time.

well hey! i'm a christian (born-again bible basher type) and i have no great issues with accomodating other faiths. we as christians have got caught up with a lot of stuff that isnt important and it's refreshing (in my church at least) to see a change in the way we do things. as something of a traditionalist, change has not been an easy road for me but i can see the difference in the way in which we relate to our local community. anyway, carry on...

PS isnt the launchpad in the FoD brilliant!!

GrahamS - Member
We spent a few nights in a hotel in Shah Alam that looked onto the Masjid Sultan Salahuddin Abdul Aziz Shah (one of the largest mosques in Southeast Asia). They played the hourly prayer calls through massive speakers on the minarets so they could be heard for miles.

😆 That's the norm or as we called it ... "alarm clock".

That is a region near the capital where they have claimed to be more religious than others ... 😆

Can't say I was a massive fan, especially with jetlag

But that's the only reason I'd be against them in this country: the noise pollution. The world is noisy enough for me.

In that case you have no chance surviving the fanatic region of the country where competing to become more religious is the norm. i.e. my loud speakers is louder than yours! I have more people coming to my mosque.

Well they only ring the bells on a Friday evening (practice) and Sunday morning (plus the odd wedding) round here.

That's nothing compare to the 5 times louder speaker alarm clock call to prayer ... 😆

I live directly opposite a Christian church. They ring the bells every 15 minutes (presumably in case their God loses track of time and forgets to move the sun or something?)

Crikey ... in a rhythmic way or simply Dong! Dong! Dong!? Do they have quality bell(s)?

They used to go on right through the night too, but a couple of years ago they sent a nice letter to all the residents saying they could fix that if we all donated money to pay for a special timer, which was terribly nice of them.

They hold you to noise ransom? Pay or else ... ring my bellllllll! Ring my bell! (the song) 😆

historically people didn't have watches so relied on clocks in public buildings

And all lovely and traditional - but do these people [i]still[/i] need quarterly chimes, especially at 4am?

And all lovely and traditional - but do these people still need quarterly chimes, especially at 4am?

Presumably not if they were prepared to put a stop to them, they just need the money to install the mechanism.

Comparing bells pealing with the islamic call to prayer is lazy and stupid.

so we are in your areas of expertise then

They hold you to noise ransom? Pay or else ...

They tried to! I don't know if anyone paid or not but the bells overnight are now much shorter and more muffled, so they did something.

(Can you imagine a nightclub trying the same thing? "We'll keep the noise down after midnight if you lot will pay for the soundproofing")

Crikey ... in a rhythmic way or simply Dong! Dong! Dong!?

There is probably a name for it but fairly standard thing that does a "Ding-Dong Ding-Dong" for each 15 minute period past the hour and on the hour the tune finishes with a series of Bong! to indicate the hour (Big Ben style).

Comparing bells pealing with the islamic call to prayer is lazy and stupid.

How so? Both are melodic and loud calls to prayer aren't they? Seems a reasonable comparison to a heathen like me.

you dont mean to cause offence but you use the word spiteful?

Well, how would you describe it objectively? Probably not the best word I guess, only had two hours sleep last night so not at my best, bitter is perhaps more appropriate?

No offence was intended but it does seem quite obvious that you're bitter about the whole thing or apsects of it when you talk about religion. I was just curious as to your thoughts on it was all.

I have no axe to grind here, religion isn't for me beyond looking at a lot of the teachings in the same way as Aesop's fables and bearing in mind the context in which they were set (don't keep pork, in fact let's just be safe and not eat it at all - you live in the desert so best case you'll be shitting yourself silly the next day).

There is probably a name

Yes a chime, it is a clock, which happens to be installed in a Church tower, there is no religious significance to it whatsoever. To suggest it is some sort of equivalent to a call to prayer is moronic There are thousands of chiming clocks all over the country.

The church has to find the money from somewhere to change it, the people who want the change seems to be a pretty sensible first port of call.

EDIT:

How so? Both are melodic and loud calls to prayer aren't they?

No not when you are talking about a ****ing clock, not the church bells which will be rung before certain services (and during practice).

To suggest it is some sort of equivalent to a call to prayer is moronic There are thousands of chiming clocks all over the country.

There's on in my hallway.

You mean I don't have to pray every time it chimes!

Bloody hell that's a relief, it's been very tiring getting up every hour all night and getting my rosary beads out 🙂

Woah chill out mefty. There are several crossing conversations happening here.

I commented on the quarterly chimes in response to mitusmonkey's comment about his church bells only ring occasionally.

We [b]also[/b] get the religious peals for various services, weddings, funerals etc which are the much longer and more melodic "calls to prayer" I referred to.

(And of course bell practise, which is rather less melodic 🙂 )

Yes a chime, it is a clock

I meant I'm sure there is a proper name for the particular recognisable coded sequence of strikes used to indicate the time.

The church has to find the money from somewhere to change it, the people who want the change seems to be a pretty sensible first port of call.

So as per my example, would you think it acceptable for a nightclub to ask for money from the people who want it to be quieter at night?

bitter is perhaps more appropriate?

I just dislike the way we are forced [in education] to engage in some of their archaic practices and beliefs and the tolerant approach is for them to leave us alone to do as we see fit whilst they do the same.

Also worth seeing a catholic school application form , where they dont discriminate, but they do ask for a reference from your local priest.

I also find it very odd that otherwise sensible , articulate and bright folk still believe ;its like meeting a grown up who believes in santa.

I am perfectly calm, I am just having great fun pointing out the utter stupidity of your position.

Re nightclub, it depends, obviously this is quite tightly regulated, providing they are within the regulations and planning restrictions, and the neighbours are asking for more than is available through these measures then it wouldn't be unreasonable even though they are a profit making entity. Funnily enough we had a situation like this in my neighbourhood. There is a pub which has been one of the top jazz venue in London for years. Next door, some highish end (£1 million +) apartments were developed and sold. Shortly after purchasing them. the occupants complained about the noise from the jazz and tried to get it shut down. It was resolved but I think the pub had to fork out for sound proofing. I personally think the flatholders should have as they should have known they were buying next to an established jazz venue.

Religion is about ethics and a philosophy of life. It's quite a good description and far more likely to result in pupil engagement than RE, so overall a good thing.

Regarding Ramadan Muslims are allowed to eat and drink if not doing so would be dangerous. AFAIK that extends to people doing physical jobs so it seems to me there is an element of choice which school kids could observe. A friend of mine said the worst part of Ramadan for him was waking before dawn in order to eat a large meal, he found this very tiring.

Anyway, so Muslim school kids are at a disadvantage during Ramadan but employees are perfectly capable of carry out their duties, like Doctors, Surgeons, Dentists, police and school teachers ?

I am perfectly calm, I am just having great fun pointing out the utter stupidity of your position.

Well I'm pleased to have entertained you, though I admit I'm not entirely sure what position it is you think I have taken, hilariously stupid or otherwise.

Re nightclub, it depends, obviously this is quite tightly regulated,

Yep, noise pollution laws are fairly well regulated for licensed venues, but seem much less strict when it comes to churches or clocks.

I don't particularly [i]mind[/i] the church bells (or clock chimes) by the way*
I wouldn't have bought a house by one if I did.

* well, most of the time. Patience was occasionally tested when the start of bell practise always seemed to coincide perfectly with us finally getting a restless baby to sleep, but that's early parenthood for you 🙂

I am immune to both loudspeakers call to prayers and church bells or clock ... 😆

My twopence worth as a Muslim ;

All Muslims have to fast except in certain conditions. Your sick , pregnant, travelling you don't have to in fact for the latter two it's forbidden. If your long term sick ie diabetic or of old age you don't fast. In this scenario you pay a donation to feed the poor and impoverished. Everybody else who misses any fasts has to make them before the next Ramadan so basically you have a year to catch up. Muslims don't just fast in Ramadan you can fast throughout the year these are known as optional fasts and are recommended for Mondays and Thursdays. Again these aren't compulsory but highly recommended for health and wellbeing. So yes they were there well before 5/2 was ever heard of.

So the last Ramadan in 2015 was the longest I've known it since I was a child but the fact is you adapt and you learn. You learn how to manage your time and sleep. You learn that food isn't the be all and end all. You learn which foods are good full of nutrients and you manage with less. If you have the time watch this video

enfht - Member

Comparing bells pealing with the islamic call to prayer is lazy and stupid.

Inasmuch as they're both noisy things done by religious institutions that annoy some people... why?

Our local church stopped doing it- the old bellringers got too old and nobody else wanted the job. Thank ****.

My twopence worth as a Muslim

Coming over here, being reasonable...

Yeap, there seems to be some flexibility in observing the fast.

Isn't there a certain irony about trying to make life during Ramadan especially easier for those who are capable/allowed to participate.
(think about it)

The Muslims I know and have discussed this issue with, give me the impression that while they know how tough it's going to be. That they wouldn't have it any other way.

Solo - Member

Isn't there a certain irony about trying to make life during Ramadan especially easier for those who are capable/allowed to participate.

Not really- it won't make the fast any easier or harder. It's about not making the [i]exams[/i] harder.

It's about not making the exams harder.

Except the exams haven't been moved after all: http://www.theguardian.com/education/2016/jan/07/summer-exams-wont-be-fitted-around-ramadan-confirm-boards

I posted this on page 5, but people may have missed it as it was the last post on the page.

[i] Northwind - Member

Not really- it won't make the fast any easier or harder. It's about not making the exams harder. [/i]

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I believe you may have missed my point.

Ramadan isn't about the act of fasting, itself. Although fasting is a part of Ramadan.

More research wouldn't be a waste of time, imo.

Right, I think that's all I've got to say on this.
Cheers.

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/12087421/Pressure-mounts-to-cancel-exams-on-day-of-Jewish-festival.html ]Plea for GCSEs to be moved from Jewish holiday.[/url]

Today's Telegraph.

Is there much evidence that Muslim children are under performing in exams? My wife teaches at a school with a large Muslim contingent and they seem to do well in comparison to other groups.

Plea for GCSEs to be moved from Jewish holiday.

Today's Telegraph.

It's interesting that article still says exams have been moved for Ramadan, when they haven't.

Is there much evidence that Muslim children are under performing in exams? My wife teaches at a school with a large Muslim contingent and they seem to do well in comparison to other groups.

No, but the exams don't normally clash with Ramadan. This year they might under perform, because it does.

The print version isn't sure.

It says they have in the first paragraph, but changes it's mind later on.

Solo - Member

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I believe you may have missed my point.

Ramadan isn't about the act of fasting, itself. Although fasting is a part of Ramadan.

I guess I must be missing your point? Because this doesn't make any difference to the actual discussion (though it is the fast which is causing the most concern, not other areas of observance) Moving exams isn't about making ramadan easier as you suggest.

I thought I was living in the U.K. not Daudi Drabia.

The local community centre is now an Islamic centre and the bars removed as it might offend Muslims.

The staff room at work is now a prayer room.

Muslims at work asked not to be sent Xmas cards yet Jews and Hindus sent cards regardless of religion.

Why do we tolerate a religion that won't tolerate non Muslims?

They have their own courts and law.

Keep all religions at home or faith centres not at work.

Why do we tolerate a religion that won't tolerate non Muslims?

This is an odd sentiment. You think they should be more tolerant, and until they are you don't think we should tolerate them. 😕

The local community centre is now an Islamic centre and the bars removed as it might offend Muslims.

If it is now an Islamic centre then they are not going to have a lot of use for bars are they?

Would you complain about the bars being removed if it had been turned into a nursery?

They have their own courts and law.

So do the Scottish - and what's more the Scottish laws actually legally override the English ones (unlike Sharia laws).

GrahamS - Member

Would you complain about the bars being removed if it had been turned into a nursery?

[img] [/img]

So does the Church of England. What's more, we even give them a say in the laws we ALL have to abide by!

Northwind - Member

GrahamS - Member
Would you complain about the bars being removed if it had been turned into a nursery?

Let me answer ...

No, for turning bars into nursery. This can be used by everyone especially parents who needs to work from home etc ...

Yes, I am deeply offended when bars are turn into religious room. This is only used by the few due to their belief and as we know they can pray from any location they want so long as they face the holy land ...

🙄

I thought I was living in the U.K. not Daudi Drabia.

The local community centre is now an Islamic centre and the bars removed as it might offend Muslims.

The staff room at work is now a prayer room.

Muslims at work asked not to be sent Xmas cards yet Jews and Hindus sent cards regardless of religion.

Why do we tolerate a religion that won't tolerate non Muslims?

They have their own courts and law.

Keep all religions at home or faith centres not at work.

You should spend less time trolling and more time riding in the wet, you're not very good at it.

Also they need to pray five times a day so do you down tool if they wish to pray during the busiest time of the day? ... In Muslamic country we down tool or face prosecution but me mates would go for a smoke or coffee instead ... we like prayer time we do. Also as our public sector is 99% Muslamic, yes you get the job based on your religious belief, we learn not to ask for public service during prayer time. 😆

'Pandering', Hmmm..., depends how one interprets the word. Here's an instance though...
Christmas day was on a Friday this year. What day do Muslims practice their main prayers? Is it Friday (or does Friday have a particular significance?)

They have their own courts and law.
So do the Scottish - and what's more the Scottish laws actually legally override the English ones (unlike Sharia laws).

What day do Muslims practice their main prayers? Is it Friday (or does Friday have a particular significance?

Its not the main prayer just the public one.

Its in the Quran and the hadith to do this.
Friday is also their "holy day"

Friday prayers tend to be the best attended, not least as its not a work day as it is their hoky day as JY says inthe same way Sunday is for Christians. As an aside its quite usual for radicalised preachers to incite violence during Friday prayers and its often a time of great tention in the Middle East. My friends in Saudi wouod frequently find their accomodation surrounded or attacked, sometimes even shot at after Friday prayers.

Poor troll or really that ignorant? Scotland is not in England - the laws don't override English ones.

Perhaps just poor wording on my part?

As I understand it it is a little more nuanced. Scots Law and English Law are separate systems (as is Northern Ireland law) but they share common legislature. Legislation passed in the Westminster Parliament usually changes all of them (except on devolved matters, though even that could be forced).

I should probably have said something like "in Scotland Scots Law can take legal precedence when conflicting with UK-wide laws that would apply in England". Is that any better?

The main thrust of my point however was that that although Frankenstein complains that Muslims [i]"have their own courts and law"[/i], they don't have power to legally overrule UK law.

To take a deliberately extreme example, a Sharia court in the UK doesn't get to sentence someone to death because they are still bound by UK law.

Clearer?

http://fullfact.org/law/uk_sharia_courts-39429