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Sensationalist bollocks. Just move the bloody exams to give everyone a fair chance. People have a right to observe their beliefs. Not the end of the world is it?
Exams could be scheduled for the morning when children and relatively well resed and have just eaten ?
Its just not possible to only have morning exams. Its logistically impossible - without doubling the length of time you test for. There are always exams am and PM
Jesus would be fizzing at the clopper
A boy once threw up on me during an exam after eating too many chocolate sweeties - I say they should all be on Ramadam.
Its just not possible to only have morning exams. Its logistically impossible - without doubling the length of time you test for. There are always exams am and PM
But relatively easy to do this for core exams, where a large number of students will be affected, which is what has been done.
Just give everyone an A*, it's not rocket science.
[quote=pjt201 spake unto the masses, saying]unfitgeezer - Member
Because we are a Christian country !
But we're not, we're an irreligous country. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_Kingdom
Well, absurd as it may be, we are - the head of state is also the head of the church (AIUI)
Either the big sky fairy thing did it or they did not. Science has no place at all for a god in its explanations and religion only has a place for god in its explanation.
A mate of mine once said he had more respect for extremists than the rest of the religious populous. At least the extremists take it all and do something with it as opposed to the rest who pick and choose what they want to believe. If you're going to believe it, do it properly.
Well, absurd as it may be, we are - the head of state is also the head of the church (AIUI)
Thank the lord, it's only an English problem.
A mate of mine once said he had more respect for extremists than the rest of the religious populous. At least the extremists take it all and do something with it as opposed to the rest who pick and choose what they want to believe. If you're going to believe it, do it properly.
Your mate sounds awesome. Where did he get his PhD from? Oxford or Cambridge?
London olympics weren't moved to accomodate ramadam.
The entire exam window isn't being moved, just some relatively minor changes.
Exactly a non-story. Capuccino time....?
Badnewz, nails it.
[b]badnews[/b]. No such thing as a PhD from Oxford. Snide remark fail.
Just give everyone an A*, it's not rocket science.
Ok, but a B- for rocket science, obviously.
It would appear that most are in agreement that fasting has a negative impact on peoples abilities and many agree that exams should be scheduled to take this into account. With that in mind, what about all the adults that will be fasting for a month when the days are almost at the longest?
Fasting Surgeons, Train drivers, Air Traffic Controllers etc. If their kids can't concentrate well enough to do exams should the adults be doing their jobs?
If Islam is a global religion then its leaders need to help the faithful in their every day lives by following day light hours at Mecca when it comes to fasting.
Each school is required by law to undertake a daily act of collective worship of a broadly Christian nature
Whilst this is a real law, bought in during the 80's by the Tories I think, no school I have worked in does this.
Its only christians who are free to choose
You've clearly not met many Catholic priests.
If Islam is a global religion then its leaders need to help the faithful in their every day lives by following day light hours at Mecca when it comes to fasting.
The fast is not meant to be easy its meant to remind them of the sufferings of others and bring them closer to god.
Each school is required by law to undertake a daily act of collective worship of a broadly Christian nature
Whilst this is a real law, bought in during the 80's by the Tories I think, no school I have worked in does this.
It predates the 80s:
The most recent legal statement of the requirements for collective worship (as distinct from assembly) are contained in the School Standards and Framework Act 1998. These build on similar requirements in Section 346 of the Education Act 1996, the Education Reform Act 1988, and Section 25 of the 1944 Education Act, where the law on compulsory collective worship began. Section 70 of the 1998 Act states that, subject to the parental right of excusal or other special arrangements, “…each pupil in attendance at a community, foundation or voluntary school shall on each school day take part in an act of collective worship.” - https://humanism.org.uk/education/parents/collective-worship-and-school-assemblies-your-rights/
According to [url= http://www.secularism.org.uk/uploads/ofsted-report-on-re-and-collective-worship-1992-3.pdf ]this 1992/3 Ofsted report[/url], most primaries met the requirement, but few secondaries did.
****ing hell 1992/3. I had only just left school!! Thats some up to date data!!
2015 Ofsted inspection framework ( https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/458866/School_inspection_handbook_section_5_from_September_2015.pdf), page 71.
Linky not worky. Are you trying to suggest all the schools I've worked in have been doing their quick pray everytime I turn my back?
It's still mentioned in the 2015 Ofsted inspection framework (
, page 71) but [url= http://accordcoalition.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Collective_Worship__Inclusive_Assemblies.pdf ]this letter[/url] states
The law on Collective Worship is largely unenforced. In 2004, Ofsted stopped asking its inspectors to consider it, citing at the time that 76% of secondary schools were noncompliant with the law: either not having worship every day, or in some cases, not having worship at all. A ComRes survey, commissioned by the BBC and published in July 2011 found that only 28% of school pupils in England took part in daily collective worship.
which would explain why your workplaces haven't done it.
It is a totally pointless law.
dragon - MemberFrom 2011 census:
We've done this a few times before, but I like the subject so why not. It's a leading question- "What is your religion". The census people accept that but have kept it the same as previous censuses in order to retain the value for trend analysis- changing the question to get a more meaningful answer would make it impossible to compare with previous years.
The fun part is when you break the statistic down and see what it really means to answer that question with "Yes, I'm Christian". The Humanist Society did another poll and asking the same question and got 61% yes, but then removed the lead and asked "Are you religious"- only 29% of those said yes. So you have 43% of the population being religiously irreligious, or possibly irreligiously religious. Less than half of those that identified as Christian said they believed in Christ, which I think makes them ians really.
Another survey created similiar results- 70% responded positively to "what is your religion" but then only 25% of people said they believed in god.
So basically, the data supports the idea that the UK is a christian country as long as you don't think believing in Christ and God are important in Christianity. But then, this is a cycling forum where nobody ever rides bikes so maybe.
[url= https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/458866/School_inspection_handbook_section_5_from_September_2015.pdf ]Fixed link (PDF)[/url]
Some relevant selected quotes from the link:
[b]Schools with a religious character[/b]..If a voluntary or foundation school is designated as having a denominational religious character ('a school with a religious character'), then denominational religious education, the school ethos an
d the content of collective worship are inspected under section 48 of the Education Act 2005..[b]Schools without a religious character
[/b]
..The RE curriculum should reflect the fact that the religious traditions in Britain are, in the main, Christian while taking account of the teaching and practices of the other principal religions represented in Britain.....Academies without a defined religious character must provide collective worship that is 'wholly or mainly of a broadly Christian
character'.....Alternatively, the family backgrounds of some or all pupils may
lead the headteacher and governing body to conclude that broadly Christian collective worship is not appropriate. The headteacher can apply to the local Standing Advisory Council for Religious Education (SACRE) to have the broadly Christian requirement disapplied and replaced by collective worship distinctive to another faith...
Fasting was pretty common during Lent for Catholics when I was growing up, even for kids.
Reminding yourself that many people in the world don't have enough to eat is no bad thing.
Most of my Muslim colleagues have no issue at all with breaking fast if they think it will impair their ability to care for others or themselves.
It must be the will of Allah that Muslim kids do badly in their exams.
It must be the will of Allah that Muslim kids do badly in their exams.
The exams have been moved, so it must not be Allah's will.
Then it must have been Allah's will that the exams be moved.
If anyone needs any more expert insight, just ask away.
To be clear, I really don't care what time any children will be taking their exams.
If they are moved to help pupils disadvantaged by fasting then fair enough.
Still think the whole Ramadan fasting thing for children is not a good thing, especially as Islam allows exceptions to the fast for a variety of reasons.
What I don't understand is the uber atheists calling racist when Islam is questioned but kick Christianity in the nuts and they come running like a bunch of wolves to join in. I am not talking about this thread in particular but the usual suspects on a numerous threads.
BTW I am not religious.
I am not talking about this thread in particular but the usual suspects on a numerous threads.
Maybe you should have posted in the thread where you thought it was happening?
What I don't understand is the uber atheists calling racist when Islam is questioned but kick Christianity in the nuts and they come running like a bunch of wolves to join in. I am not talking about this thread in particular but the usual suspects on a numerous threads.
There is often a general 'racisty' undertone to much criticism of Islam.
For the record, I think Islam is as incorrect as Christianity but I respect the rights of individuals to choose their religion.
There is an issue of whether 15/16-year-olds are [i]choosing[/i] to fast, which could and should be open to discussion, but that's probably a longer term issue and isn't going to be much help to those taking exams in 5 months time.
Be more specific.
I'm against fundamentalist tossery of any stripe and have said so on many occasions.
If people are being hypocritical in defending Islam whilst decrying the same attitudes expressed by other religions then highlight it.
No one will mind.
I wonder if the way you post the question helps explain why you dont understand?What I don't understand is the uber atheists calling racist when Islam is questioned but kick Christianity in the nuts and they come running like a bunch of wolves to join in. I am not talking about this thread in particular but the usual suspects on a numerous threads.
[b]gobuchul[/b] That's a rather defensive strawman argument. Show me [i]where [/i]people have been called racist in this thread. And to do so would show a poor understanding of Race, which is not the same as Religion.
There are some - including perhaps the OP - who might be accused of being inconsiderate of others views, or narrow minded, or full of complacent assumptions based on a sense of Christian Entitilement,but that isn't racism.
If it doesn't do harm to the majority, why shouldn't helping the performace of the minority by making small changes like this be done? That's politeness... no? or even Christian Charity? 😉
What I don't understand is the uber atheists calling racist when Islam is questioned but kick Christianity in the nuts and they come running like a bunch of wolves to join in. I am not talking about this thread in particular but the usual suspects on a numerous threads.
What mike said basically ^
Perhaps atheists have the dispassionate cold perspective of people who think both religions are wrong, so they feel well positioned to call out what they might see as entitlement and hypocrisy, that members of the faiths may not see from their positions?
(Or maybe the godless heathens are just bitter and resentful)
Possibly what Gobuchul is alluding to is that the majority of posters criticising the op would seem to be atheist in leaning, and against any form of christianity taught in schools, but support the moving of exams to aid those strictly following another religion.
Having been educated at a Catholic school in the 80's that was run by nuns, priests, and had it's own weekly mass and confessional (try telling the man who is about to teach you history that you have had wicked thoughts about the needlework teacher Miss Vickers) 😀 i am against any form of religious influence in our education system, plus children fasting.
langylad - Member
Possibly what Gobuchul is alluding to is that the majority of posters criticising the op would seem to be atheist in leaning, and against any form of christianity taught in schools.
Just Christianity?
but support the moving of exams to aid those strictly following another religion.
We can't stop people believing what they like, even if we don't agree with it.
We CAN stop their children being penalised as a result.
Ithe majority of posters criticising the op would seem to be atheist in leaning, and against any form of christianity taught in schools, but support the moving of exams to aid those strictly following another religion.
one can dislike religion and still do somethign practical so that its adherents, daft as they are, are not harmed
It not like they are making us all do ramadan like the christians make us pray.
I am happy to be tolerant/make allowances I am not happy to be compelled to join in,
like the christians make us pray.
When and how would a Christian make you pray?
Are you incredibly feeble minded or something?
Another example of kicking Christians in the nuts. 🙄
Semantics Rusty, but you are right, should have said any form of religion, it is just that the majority of posters are complaining that their kids are taught christian beliefs.
Again JY, I agree the children shouldn't be penalised for their beliefs, I just don't think religion should have any sway over education. Just as the excellent catholic school in my area should not give priority to children who can prove they go to mass, it is publicly funded
Where does this 'anti Christan' thing come from gobuchul?
Serious question, BTW.
I can't recall anyone having a pop at aspects of Christianity that don't equally apply to Judaism or Islam.
[i] Junkyard - lazarus
I am happy to be tolerant/make allowances I am not happy to be compelled to join in, [/i]
And for those who are not Muslim, but who are having their exam dates adjusted. They're not being compelled to join in either. No, of course not.
When and how would a Christian make you pray
Gobuchul, you obviously didn't go to a catholic school, plus it would appear to happen in most junior schools
...the majority of posters criticising the op would seem to be atheist in leaning, and against any form of christianity taught in schools, but support the moving of exams to aid those strictly following another religion.
atheist here.
it's not that i'm 'against Christianity being taught in schools', i'm against any preaching in schools.
(see, there's a difference between teaching about religions, and preaching that one religion is the one true way)
because:
partly A) it's all a load of nonsense anyway.
but mostly B) dividing kids on religious grounds is an effective way of dividing kids on racial grounds, and that's clearly a very bad idea.
so, i think secular schools that make allowances for kids of all religions, are probably the most inclusive, healthy way to go.
When and how would a Christian make you pray?
See the above references to compulsory acts of collective worship in schools.
it is just that the majority of posters are complaining that their kids are taught christian beliefs
Trust me, I'd be complaining exactly the same if my kids were being taught any other religion as absolute fact.
I just don't think religion should have any sway over education
Neither do I, but I don't think that trying to be accommodating of other beliefs is quite the same as "holding sway".
And for those who are not Muslim, but who are having their exam dates adjusted. They're not being compelled to join in either. No, of course not.
Clearly they will take some of their exam on a different date/time, but how will this negatively affect them?
When and how would a Christian make you pray?
Are you reading the thread properly or do you just have a short attention span?Please recall the need for collective worship mainly christian in nature in all schools ?
At school mainly when they forced me to
FWIW my son has been made to do it twice at a non religious school and at the second time was sent to the head for refusing to bow his head and close his eyes.
not so feeble minded i believe the shit you write or that i find what you say even remotely difficult to counter.Are you incredibly feeble minded or something?
that is correct having your exam on a different date is nothing like having to fast or do ramadanAnd for those who are not Muslim, but who are having their exam dates adjusted. They're not being compelled to join in either. No, of course not.
We can't stop people believing what they like, even if we don't agree with it.
We CAN stop [s]their children [/s] [b]them [/b]being penalised as a result.
And for those who are not Muslim, but who are having their exam dates adjusted. They're not being compelled to join in either. No, of course not.
Correct, they are not.
If they [i]were[/i] being compelled to join in then the exam board's solution would have been to force all children to fast for Ramadan.
Perhaps children ought not to fast !What next ?
I dunno, non-Christian kids being dressed as a donkey for the school Nativity play?
Halal Spotted Dick for dinner?
Halloween showings of 'The Djinnbusters' with all the original Ghostbusters music removed and replaced with Quranic recitation?
Gah! ye got me. Trick question innit?
At school mainly when they forced me to
How is it different from an Islamic school?
JY - Your statement was
It not like they are making us all do ramadan like the christians make us pray.
Do you think children at an Islamic school do not get "forced" to take part?
Junkyard - genuine question, not looking for a rise. Do you think you would be considerably less spiteful about religion had you been brought up in a secular or even more tolerant environment? Just a general observation that those most against it seem to be the ones that were brought up in a less tolerant environment, a lot of backlash going on from what I can see.
I may or may not have asked this question in the baby Jesus thread.
Neither do I, but I don't think that trying to be accommodating of other beliefs is quite the same as "holding sway".
RE is a compulsory gcse at many secondary schools and takes up a huge amount of otherwise useful teaching time. I would rather religion had no influence over this, or when exams should be set.
Just sayin like.
Neal, if you meant that adults take these exams too, then yes, I see the reason for your edit.
I don't particularly care about adults and the consequences of their beliefs - they usually have a choice.
Their kids don't.
Halloween showings of 'The Djinnbusters' with all the original Ghostbusters music removed and replaced with Quranic recitation?
To be fair, that sounds brilliant. 😀
Could we extend the multiculturalism to throw in some Bollywood dances as well?
Gobuchul, you obviously didn't go to a catholic school,
I did.
I no longer follow the religion I was taught in school.
I don't feel particularly bitter, angry and resentful like a lot of others on here about having the whole Catholic thing as a kid.
If people did follow what JC taught, not to the exact letter as this is impossible due to the lack of clarity of the various translations but the underlying principles, then the World would be a better place. You don't have to believe he was God to do that either.
you dont mean to cause offence but you use the word spiteful?Do you think you would be considerably less spiteful about religion had you been brought up in a secular or even more tolerant environment?
if they had left me alone then I probably would care less about what they do/
Undfortunatley they dont want to be left alone to do as they please they feel the need to both preach and make us all join in with the,m Tihis crosses the line for me
One can do and act as one please but one cannot demand others to do the same]
FWIW i dont eat meat were i to make everyone vegan I would expect some "spiteful " reactions to this.
i also deplore that our govt decided all students must study RE - Again if religion left me alone and education alone i would not be as "spiteful" to it.
RE is a compulsory gcse at many secondary schools and takes up a huge amount of otherwise useful teaching time.
How would you suggest kids should be taught about how to live in a multicultural society?
Or don't you think that's important.
RE lessons aren't indoctrination to one religion, they are to educate about all of them.
And I'm saying that as someone who was taught RE in a catholic school by nuns, 30 odd years ago.
Undfortunatley they dont want to be left alone to do as they please they feel the need to both preach and make us all join in with the,m Tihis crosses the line for me
Geniune question.
I only went to religious schools so obviously there was a bit of praying and stuff, so I don't know what happened elsewhere.
"Back in the day", in "normal" state schools, i.e. not RC or C of E, was there much praying and stuff? I always assumed there wasn't much?
I was about to post same as Neal, RE is about understanding different religious beliefs, festivals etc and being understanding of others. It doesn't make you believe in God of any kind.
"Back in the day", in "normal" state schools, i.e. not RC or C of E, was there much praying and stuff? I always assumed there wasn't much?
I left a non-religious state primary in 1988. We had daily worship, including hymns and prayers, and said grace before eating.
I taught in a non-religious state primary in 1999-2000. We had daily worship, including hymns and prayers.
My daughter left a non-religious state primary in 2014. She had daily worship, including hymns and prayers.
"Back in the day", in "normal" state schools, i.e. not RC or C of E, was there much praying and stuff?
I went to a "normal" state primary and secondary school in Scotland (circa 1980 to mid-1990s)
As far as I know both were non-denominational (though Scotland being what it was the primary was generally regarded as a proddy one, because all the Catholics went to St Josephs).
My memory is that we had "assembly" once a week (I think.. maybe it was daily), where we all sat on the floor of the gym, a few boring announcements were made ([i]"please stop setting fire to the janitors cat"[/i] etc) then we sang a few hymns and finished with the Lord's Prayer.
How would you suggest kids should be taught about how to live in a multicultural society?Or don't you think that's important.
RE lessons aren't indoctrination to one religion, they are to educate about all of them
I was about to post same as Neal, RE is about understanding different religious beliefs, festivals etc and being understanding of others. It doesn't make you believe in God of any kind.
I think you are missing my point here chaps, I don't think school is a place to learn about any religion. Don't get me wrong, I agree with the teaching of historical events that were religiously motivated (the english reformation for instance). Teaching tolerance of others beliefs can be done at home,
Teaching tolerance of others beliefs can be done at home,
Sadly, my mam knows bot all about Sikhs. Luckily, I was taught about them at school.
Why is teaching facts about dead people acceptable to you, but not facts about living people?
Fancy forcing your children to fast, honestly it's beyond belief, literally.
You learn how to live in a multicultural society by being given the opportunity to live in a multicultural society.
You don't have to be specifically taught not to be a knob to those of other faiths.
Just being taught not to be a knob is enough.
Signalling out religious diffence as something special is unhelpful.
Pointing out the benefits of accepting difference is not.
I don't think school is a place to learn about any religion.
I'm quite happy for my kids to learn about their own and other cultures, and that includes learning about religions which are often a central or formative part of those cultures.
I'm quite pleased when I hear my daughter say [i]"Some people believe..."[/i]. That's all good.
I'm much less happy when she follows it with [i]"But I know it was God because Mrs [X] told us."[/i] 👿
This thread was all about Islaam and Ramadan. And then a few Christians waded into it waving the "it's a Christian Country" flag. And were called on their accuracy and charity.
So rather deploying the knee-jerk lazy "millitant atheist" name-calling, those Christian posters might like to look back and see what actually happened here. The whiff of self-torching martyr is rather strong 😉
[quote=mitsumonkey ]Fancy forcing your children to fast, honestly it's beyond belief, literally.Yep, they should be like good christians and buy their kids lots of chocolate at Christmas and Easter. I wonder which options is worse for their kids health?
Teaching kids about all religions is also a really good way to create atheists.
Out of the mouths of babes, real religious truth: http://gu.com/p/4fdpb
As is not bringing the subject into schools in the first place.
Gives it a prominence it does not deserve.
.
This article seems relevant too:
Schools do not have to teach non-religious world views and should let students know Britain is "in the main Christian", the Government has said.Nicky Morgan, the Education Secretary, has sidestepped a High Court ruling which found she unlawfully excluded atheism from the school curriculum.
A two year commission which found the UK is no longer a Christian country is also absent from the department's new guidance.
The new document says religious education should "reflect the fact that the religious traditions in Great Britain are, in the main, Christian."
-- [url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/schools-must-teach-that-britain-is-mainly-christian-and-need-not-cover-atheism-says-nicky-morgan-a6787951.html ]Independent, 28 Dec 2015[/url]
Why is teaching facts about dead people acceptable to you, but not facts about living people
I think most people agree that teaching facts about dead and living people is ok, not quite sure why you made that sweeping generalisation about my point; which is purely, for the last time tonight folks, I don't think religion has a place in school. History yes, multiculturalism (why does this intrinsically need to be linked to religion??) yes. Just not god of any particular flavour.
Have to love you and leave you as I'm off to cricket practice (now THAT should be taught in schools :D)
I'm not really sure what planet Nicky Morgan is on.
You don't think teaching facts about what religions believe is suitable for in school? Even Dawkins would disagree with that.
No, not as a separate subject Mike.
Incorporate it into sociology, it's at home there.
Giving it a prominence it doesn't deserve legitimises the belief.
We can still acknowledge it's importance and impact without doing that.
Modern RE is essentially a philosophy and ethics course.