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No, it's not pandering, it's a sensible change to help students.
You dislike Islam enough to deny children the opportunity to be at their best when taking exams?
What next ?
School terms scheduled to accommodate major religious festivals?
1 in 12 children in our schools are Muslim, it seems sensible and appropriate to have exams when they are more alert and likely to get a better result. As it's a movable festival, this isn't going to be a permanent thing, just something we'll need to pay attention to occasionally .
how/why is that pandering?
We live in a multi cultural society, get over it.
No it's not it's a sensible approach to an issue which effects thousands. Moving the date has no real effect on the exams.
Pandering? Stop being dramatic.
School terms scheduled to accommodate major religious festivals?
😀 Spot on!
Our (supposedly) secular schooling is currently heavily timetabled around Christianity.
What's wrong with also trying to accommodate other major religions?
blimey ufg, you do post a lot of this sort of guff 😆
Seems very sensible and reasonable to me. It would appear it will have a positive benefit to Muslim students and no negative effects to others. So no, not pandering, just sensible.
We have holidays for the two major Christian events (which are mainly just for eating more crap), so there is clearly a precedent to be followed, this one is just about not eating in the day.
The kids knock off half way through the afternoon anyway, so it's not as if people are that fussed about them being in school...
Iirc, the Islamic faith allows people to ignore or postpone the Ramadan fast in certain circumstances, I would have thought that this could be an option?
We have holidays for the [b]two major Christian events[/b] (which are mainly just for eating more crap), so there is clearly a precedent to be followed, this one is just about not eating in the day.
Because we are a Christian country !
If they can't do exams are they safe to drive a car , safe to administer medicine etc?
The sooner they tie it in with sunrise at mecca the better. Currently it's bloody stupid. One of our staff had the nurse taking her blood faint due to fasting .
You'd have an argument if the change was at the detriment to non-Muslim students but it's not, so it's a no brainier really.
unfitgeezer - Member
Because we are a Christian country !
But we're not, we're an irreligous country. [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_Kingdom ]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_Kingdom[/url]
Can. Of. Worms.
I couldn't do it. Good luck to ya. See ya around yeh?!
Beep beep.
[url= 
]beep beep[/url]
this did make me wonder.
if you adhere to the daylight fasting bit for ramadan, why dont you just use the daylight hours for mecca, or equivalent.
muslims at the top of scotland must really suffer.
those muslims who have refugeed to sweden will soon move south
there is no muslim father christmas as the constant daylight at his house in the north pole caused him to starve.
What next ?
Exclusion of cartoon chatacters with any relation to food as well.
That's ramadanbananamanandpopeyepandemonium.
But we're not, we're an irreligous country. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_Kingdom
Our head of state is head of CofE, so we are a christian country, I would accept that. But I think it's more a technicality, very few actually follow religion as you pointed out. Certainly I don't remember anyone knocking off works a few works ago stating they are looking forward to getting some proper church time in
From 2011 census:
[img] 
[/img]
Slightly OT but what to Muslims living the far north of Europe do when daylight can be 20 hours of the day in the summer?
Lose weight..
Our (supposedly) secular schooling is currently heavily timetabled around Christianity.
We don't have secular schooling. Each school is required by law to undertake a daily act of collective worship of a broadly Christian nature, and a huge number of our schools are run by the Anglican and Roman Catholic churches.
That's all the oldies ticking the Christian box on the census and they don't go to school anyway, most of them don't even bother going to church, out major religious festival is celebrated by gorging on food, booze and TV, and has nothing to do with any gods
Each school is required by law to undertake a daily act of collective worship of a broadly Christian nature, and a huge number of our schools are run by the Anglican and Roman Catholic churches.
That really is depressing
[quote=kimbers ]That's all the oldies ticking the Christian box on the census and they don't go to school anyway, most of them don't even bother going to church, out major religious festival is celebrated by gorging on food, booze and TV, and has nothing to do with any gods
And it would be even fewer if it wasn't for all those damn immigrants 😆
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/03/church-attendance-propped-immigrants-study
Yes, it is pandering. In the Muslim countries I have visited (i.e. the Gulf nations) the old, ill and children don't have to and generally don't observe Ramadan (i'm sure there are exceptions as there always are). There are a number of alleviations to Ramadan too, such as travel (though I think this means traveling across deserts on camels rather than a first class seat on an airplane whcih some interpret it as). It seems UK muslims are taking a more hardline/severe interpretation than those in alot of the ME countries. In this country any parents denying their kids food and starving them should be considered as child abuse in my opnion - religion is not an excuse. We are a multicultural country, but that is a whole other debate.
Not really our entire society is built on christian history and values. It important that you understand it. No one is making you believe in a god of any kind.
[b]dragon[/b] as you probably well know that is actually a BS statistic - based on affilliation or identification rather than belief or practice. It can identify people who are "culturally" affiliated but don't actually believe anything. And the figure had dropped from 71% to 59% of the previous 10 years.
[b]ufg[/b] really?! Compared to the confusing moving clusterf*** of Easter and its poorly timed Bank Holidays? I'm happy to see some accommodation of Ramadan.
In this country any parents denying their kids food and starving them should be considered as child abuse in my opinion - religion is not an excuse
^^This.
and what a stupid idea that is. I'd vote for truly secular schooling. It would solve a lot of problems, including [s]indoctrination[/s] prayers after school plays and dodgy hardline Islamist faith schools that may or may not be exaggerated/exist.We don't have secular schooling. Each school is required by law to undertake a daily act of collective worship of a broadly Christian nature, and a huge number of our schools are run by the Anglican and Roman Catholic churches.
Sounds like commonsense, tbh.
From 2011 census:[img]
That very nicely demonstrates how the wording of a survey question can influence the result. The British Social Attitudes survey got quite different results:
[img] 
[/img]
The Census asked: "What is your religion?"
The BSA Survey asked: "Do you regard yourself as belonging to any particular religion?"
We don't have secular schooling.
Indeed - but we [i]should[/i] have (IMO).
(Speaking as an atheist dad regularly listening to his 5 year old spouting Christian doctrine about God creating the world and man as an absolute fact - and rather disregarding our various trips to museums to look at dinosaur bones 🙁 )
We don't have secular schooling. Each school is required by law to undertake a daily act of collective worship of a broadly Christian nature, and a huge number of our schools are run by the Anglican and Roman Catholic churches.
and what a stupid idea that is. I'd vote for truly secular schooling. It would solve a lot of problems, including indoctrination prayers after school plays and dodgy hardline Islamist faith schools that may or may not be exaggerated.
It'll be difficult getting rid of it any time soon, what with the head of state being the head of the church, the 'requirement' for the PM to be a member of the CofE, and Bishops getting automatic seats in the Lords.
unfitgeezer - MemberBecause we are a Christian country !
Is the year 1716? 😆
Because we are a Christian country !
Then forgive.
dont think its great children are made to fast, but no issues with changing timetables if they have to
While the question may have something to do with the differences, the sample size varied vastly, a complete UK census Vs less than 3000 people.
if you adhere to the daylight fasting bit for ramadan, why dont you just use the daylight hours for mecca, or equivalent.
Because they have to di it based on where they are
[quote=dragon ]Not really our entire society is built on christian history and values. It important that you understand it. No one is making you believe in a god of any kind.
Yes that is correct the christians bulit this world to the extent that th ehead of stae [ who used to be personally annointed by god] is the head of the state church and all kids have to worship at least once a week but honestly they are not trying to make you worship their god
As for entirely built that just overstatement CHristianity is without doubt one of the primary movers but it did not build our entire society for that has to ignore science , art, literature, the influence of the greeks with democracy and political /moral philosophy and the age of enlightenment,
Not really our entire society is built on christian history and values. It important that you understand it. No one is making you believe in a god of any kind.
Isn't that what history lessons are for?
In this country any parents [b]denying their kids food and starving them [/b]should be considered as child abuse in my opinion
dont think it's great children are [b]made to fast[/b], but no issues with changing timetables[b] if they have to[/b]
We are talking about A level students here, not nursery kids.
At 17/18 my parents couldn't force me to do anything I didn't want to do while I was out of the house all day not under their direct control.
Do you think these kids might be any different ?
And that they might actually be choosing to fast because they want to.
dragon as you probably well know that is actually a BS statistic - based on affilliation or identification rather than belief or practice. It can identify people who are "culturally" affiliated but don't actually believe anything. And the figure had dropped from 71% to 59% of the previous 10 years.
The society we live in now would be very different if it was the product of centuries/millennia of Islam* rather than Christianity being the dominant religion.
So it's not [i]totally[/i] BS to say it's a Christian country, even if very few of the people living in it are Christians in any meaningful sense any more.
*Other religions are available.
Then forgive.
No forgiveness without repentance in Christianity, that's the deal as I understand it.
You can't convert to Catholicism from Islam without repenting, for example.
Speaking as an atheist dad regularly listening to his 5 year old spouting Christian doctrine about God creating the world and man as an absolute fact - and rather disregarding our various trips to museums to looks at dinosaur bones
From my experience, I'm happy to say, they get a lot more questioning and open-minded by the time they're 6 or 7 and can actually spot the silly bits. I had the same worries when they were younger.
It still annoys me that they are taken to church services by default. Wouldn't mind so much if they went to different religions' services as well as a learning experience - rather seems to be a lazy assumption that everyone should be a christian.
As stated above, there are plenty of exemptions allowed for Ramadan fasting.
I am amazed at the number of radical atheists on here that are supporting starving a child for the sake of your imaginary friend.
they might actually be choosing to fast because they want to.
Can they not also choose to eat sensibly while taking exams?
The society we live in now would be very different if it was the product of centuries/millennia of Islam* rather than Christianity being the dominant religion.So it's not totally BS to say it's a Christian country, even if very few of the people living in it are Christians in any meaningful sense any more.
We are a partly product of our history, some of which was Christian, but there are pretty big differences in the cultures of different historically Christian countries, so there is more to it than that.
We're a western European post-colonial post-Christian country.
No one is making you believe in a god of any kind.
Hmmm... well my daughter is getting religion from [i]somewhere[/i] and it isn't me or her mum.
Maybe the school's daily act of worship, bible stories, harvest festival, nativity play and carol singing has some influence on her young mind?
It's kind of hard to say to a 5 year old [i]"You go to school to learn so listen to what your teachers tell you. Unless they talk about God and stuff obviously"[/i]
Can they not also choose to eat sensibly while taking exams?
They could have made that choice yes.
But they don't need to now do they, because someone sensible has made a decision and made it easier for them.
Speaking as an atheist dad regularly listening to his 5 year old spouting Christian doctrine about God creating the world and man as an absolute fact - and rather disregarding our various trips to museums to looks at dinosaur bones
From my experience, I'm happy to say, they get a lot more questioning and open-minded by the time they're 6 or 7 and can actually spot the silly bits. I had the same worries when they were younger.
My two have an atheist dad and a (wooly, liberal, Anglican) Christian mum. We went to church as a family most Sundays and they went to Sunday school, etc. and had the in-school indoctrination too (though not in a Church school). I was very careful to remain neutral.
The twelve-year-old has been a vocal atheist for years, and the ten-year-old told my dad last year that she's "not a proper Christian" because she doesn't believe in God, she believes in science.
The society we live in now would be very different if [b]we hadn't had slavery.[/b]So it's not totally BS to say it's a [b]slave-owning[/b] country, even if very few of the people living in it [b]have slaves[/b] any more.
Does that still work?
Sometimes the past that your country is built on is just that: the past
We are a partly product of our history, some of which was Christian, but there are pretty big differences in the cultures of different historically Christian countries, so there is more to it than that.We're a western European post-colonial post-Christian country.
Surely we are totally a product of our history? Which, yeah, does include more than Christianity- I did say it's not [i]total[/i] BS!
But I think the point stands- Christianity has played a large part in shaping the society we have now. I don't think you have to be a 'real' Christian to acknowledge it. I'm certainly not!
Let's try some others:
The society we live in now would be very different if we hadn't had a largely rural agrarian population.
So it's not totally BS to say it's a largely rural agrarian population country, even if very few of the people living in it work in fields any more.
Surely we are totally a product of our history? Which, yeah, does include more than Christianity- I did say it's not total BS!
But I think the point stands- Christianity has played a large part in shaping the society we have now. I don't think you have to be a 'real' Christian to acknowledge it. I'm certainly not!
It's a bit of a leap from "Christianity played a part in shaping our society" to "we're a Christian country" to "make the Muslim kids do their exams hungry".
No forgiveness without repentance in Christianity
That raises an interesting question - how do you repent when you've done nothing wrong?
The current timing of the exams is based on the school calendar, which is based on the legal calendar's long summer break, which is based on the Thames getting smelly in the summer. The historical smelliness of the Thames has more influence on the timing of the exams than our Christian heritage.
I live opposite a standard, modern Christian church..
The sparkly eyed, fresh faced teens that attend the youth group there are ****ing weirdos, every last one of them..
Stepford wives for the 21st century, they stick out like a sore thumb in their squeaky clean clothes and maniacal grins..
20 odd brainwashed fruitloops in a town of 80 000
Christian country my hairy brown arse
Surely everyone knows that everyone is Islam is forced to do it by someone else probably a bullying man and no one freely chooses to do anything. Its only christians who are free to choose. Muslims are oppressed into it.Do you think these kids might be any different ?And that they might actually be choosing to fast because they want to.
Does that still work?Sometimes the past that your country is built on is just that: the past
It [i]would[/i] be different if there hadn't been slavery, wouldn't it?
But I'm not sure your substitution quite works. It's obviously rubbish to claim that this is a country of god-fearing church-goers, but I think saying it's a Christian country is a bit more nuanced than that. And I did qualify it pretty heavily, to acknowledge it's an important part of where we are now. I could say the same for slavery.
It's a bit of a leap from "Christianity played a part in shaping our society" to "we're a Christian country" to "make the Muslim kids do their exams hungry".
It sure is. Can you point out where I made it?
she doesn't believe in God, she believes in science.
But they aren't mutually exclusive, plenty of top scientists believe in a God.
I feel your pain. How are you dealing with it? My best tactic so far seems to be to just say, "that's a great story isn't it? Although I definitely prefer the Cat in the Hat/Gruffalo/Planes Fire and Rescue*" which hopefully puts the God stories on a literary footing in miniV8s brain where they should be, rather than a factual footing. The teaching of religion as fact does drive me mad though.Hmmm... well my daughter is getting religion from somewhere and it isn't me or her mum.
It sure is. Can you point out where I made it?
I'm not saying you did, but it has been made during this thread as a reason for not 'pandering'.
she doesn't believe in God, she believes in science.
But they aren't mutually exclusive, plenty of top scientists believe in a God.
I didn't say they were mutually exclusive, but in her nine-year-old mind there's clearly a link.
I'd also dispute 'plenty', and say that probably 'some' would be a better description.
I feel your pain. How are you dealing with it? My best tactic so far seems to be to just say, "that's a great story isn't it? Although I definitely prefer the Cat in the Hat/Gruffalo/Planes Fire and Rescue*" which hopefully puts the God stories on a literary footing in miniV8s brain where they should be, rather than a factual footing. It does make me mad though.
I go for "that's what some people believe, but other people believe [i]x[/i], and I believe [i]y[/i]".
unfitgeezer - Memberhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-35244444
Perhaps children ought not to fast !
What next ?
I don't know but I'll take a guess at yet another moronic, trolling post from you.
Do you write into the Daily Mail signing yourself "Outraged of Tunbridge Wells"?
That's because; a) 'radical atheists' tend to be far more tolerant of the religious than vice versa, right up until the point at which the religious start trying to impose their cult upon others, and b) 'starving children for an imaginary friend' is sensationalist BS, and demonstrates either a remarkably poor understanding of the religion in question, or a Daily Mailesque level of prejudice.I am amazed at the number of radical atheists on here that are supporting starving a child for the sake of your imaginary friend.
I feel your pain. How are you dealing with it? My best tactic so far seems to be to just say, "that's a great story isn't it? Although I definitely prefer the Cat in the Hat/Gruffalo/Planes Fire and Rescue*" which hopefully puts the God stories on a literary footing in miniV8s brain where they should be, rather than a factual footing. It does make me mad though.
I don't have kids but if/when I do then I will be stealing that idea, that's awesome.
I don't dislike religion per-se, I just hate how it is forced upon people, kids or otherwise.
plenty of top scientists believe in a God
I'd also dispute 'plenty', and say that probably 'some' would be a better description.
Because I like evidence:
A survey of scientists who are members of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, conducted by the Pew Research Center for the People & the Press in May and June 2009, finds that members of this group are, on the whole, much less religious than the general public.1 Indeed, the survey shows that scientists are roughly half as likely as the general public to believe in God or a higher power. According to the poll, just over half of scientists (51%) believe in some form of deity or higher power; specifically, 33% of scientists say they believe in God, while 18% believe in a universal spirit or higher power. By contrast, 95% of Americans believe in some form of deity or higher power, according to a survey of the general public conducted by the Pew Research Center in July 2006. Specifically, more than eight-in-ten Americans (83%) say they believe in God and 12% believe in a universal spirit or higher power. Finally, the poll of scientists finds that four-in-ten scientists (41%) say they do not believe in God or a higher power, while the poll of the public finds that only 4% of Americans share this view. - http://www.pewforum.org/2009/11/05/scientists-and-belief/
tldr: 33% of American scientists believe in God, compared to 83% of Americans. 40% of American scientists are atheists, compared to 4% of Americans.
Those numbers would be very different for British scientists and general public, in a non-religious direction.
I am amazed at the number of radical atheists on here that are supporting starving a child for the sake of your imaginary friend.
That's because; a) 'radical atheists' tend to be far more tolerant of the religious than vice versa, right up until the point at which the religious start trying to impose their cult upon others, and b) 'starving children for an imaginary friend' is sensationalist BS, and demonstrates either a remarkably poor understanding of the religion in question, or a Daily Mailesque level of prejudice.
And because there's a difference between "atheist" and "dick".
We are a Christian country and the majority (?) of our schools are Catholic or CoE that's why our holidays and term dates reflect those festivals. I have mixed feelings about rescheduling exams in order to accomodate just 8% of the students. Ramadan lasts for a month, it's not like we are speaking about moving the exams a day or two. Exams could be scheduled for the morning when children and relatively well resed and have just eaten ?
Complex subject
EDIT: On further relfection I have no issue with schools electing to take a seperate exam at a differemt time, I imagine that would hae to be earlier in fhe year prior to Ramadan and not after as that allows extra revsion time. I do not believe exam times for 92% of the school population should be moved to accomodate 8%
What next ?
You making a useful contribution to this forum?
OK, maybe not.
School terms scheduled to accommodate major religious festivals?
This was up for debate last year in Denmark, one of the politicians actually wanted the opposite.
They they had to reschedule their religious festival so it did not occur when they had exams.
Can you define plenty as a numerical value?But they aren't mutually exclusive, plenty of top scientists believe in a God.
As for mutually exclusive they are
Either the big sky fairy thing did it or they did not. Science has no place at all for a god in its explanations and religion only has a place for god in its explanation.
All you have done is show that some people are able to hold mutually incompatible /inconsistent views but that is not news.
the 'requirement' for the PM to be a member of the CofE
Whew! Bet Gordon Brown's glad that he got away with that one...
School holidays in Scotland used to be arranged so kids could work at the tattie picking. Mucking around with the timetable to facilitate child labour. Outrageous.
Ramadan lasts for a month, it's not like we are speaking about moving the exams a day or two. Exams could be scheduled for the morning when children and relatively well resed and have just eaten ?
According to [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-35244444 ]this BBC article[/url] " many core exams had been set for before Ramadan starts on 6 June, but there had been no large scale changes".
Pupils in England, Wales and Northern Ireland will sit GCSEs and A-levels between May 16 and June 29 this year and Ramadan runs from 6 June to 5 July.
"Where possible, large-entry GCSE and GCE subjects are timetabled prior to the commencement of Ramadan and consideration given to whether they are timetabled in the morning or afternoon."
This could mean that subjects taken by large numbers of students, such as GCSE English and maths, may be timetabled early in the exams season before Ramadan, or taken at a time of day to lessen the effect on students who might be fasting.
The entire exam window isn't being moved, just some relatively minor changes.
the 'requirement' for the PM to be a member of the CofEWhew! Bet Gordon Brown's glad that he got away with that one...
For Scots, apparently, the Church of Scotland is acceptable.
Edit: a quick search gave http://ask.metafilter.com/190254/In-practice-could-a-Catholic-be-British-Prime-Minister where it looks more like a prohibition on Catholics, though I don't think there's ever been an openly non-protestant PM?
[img] 
[/img]
Ramadan lasts for a month, it's not like we are speaking about moving the exams a day or two.
From the article:
"Ramadan shifts slightly each year in relation to the Western calendar.
It follows the Muslim calendar and, this year, runs from 6 June to 5 July.
Pupils in England, Wales and Northern Ireland will sit GCSEs and A-levels between May 16 and June 29 this year."
Exams could be scheduled for the morning when children and relatively well resed and have just eaten ?
Also from the article:
"This could mean that subjects taken by large numbers of students, such as GCSE English and maths, may be timetabled early in the exams season before Ramadan, [b]or taken at a time of day to lessen the effect on students who might be fasting.[/b]"
Edit: Mike quotes articles faster than me 😉