[Closed] Is this on....Estate Agent content

If I was a vendor I'd be furious.

i'd be dropping a letter through the vendors door.

I am tempted to contact the vendors direct....

I would. Imagine the vendors might insert a rocket somewhere.

Surely breaches EU anti competition rules and would mean any losses could be recouped through the court if you can prove your loss

It's not on at all but sounds like there's not much you can do about it. Annoying but see if they can get you a better offer - nothing lost if they do.

Absolutely disgusting practice.

I had this, it's total BS. I saw a whiteboard in the EA office with 'priority customers' written on it. I asked how I become a priority customer, "take out a mortgage with us" was the answer. It was quiet in the office so I walked straight over to the mortgage adviser, he couldn't beat my co-op mortgage offer and accused me of being a liar and wasting his time even though the rate was advertised in the paper... 🙄

And from 2013

https://www.theguardian.com/money/blog/2013/jun/15/estate-agent-mortgage-brokers-lousy

We had this in Sheffield - a wheeze to get you to take out mortgage with them.

Just one of the multitude of ways they try to get more money out of you.

[I]If I was a vendor I'd be furious. [/I]

But presumably the 'deal' they signed up to?

As said above, contact the vendor directly with your offer and explain that the agent is withholding offers from them.

I would be telling them to do one and just show them a letter/email from your mortgage lender.

I could have sworn that that was illegal for the EA to put a condition on the offer being passed on. It's certainly a legal requirement for the EA to pass on "all" offers. Not sure how the two come together.

Of course it could act in your favour, if others are put off making offers too. Less interest, usually means lower prices.

I'd be onto the vendor.

we had something similar and the agent was 'filtering' offers to the vendor. We only found out a year or so later when by accident got chatting to the vendor's son. The agent had actually been shut down by then, I believe after being slapped on the wrist one too many times for similarly shonky practices.

we also had similar where a different agent insisted that we speak to their mortgage chap directly. I'm sure it wasn't wholly accidental that the properties that the agent kept sending across suddenly jumped a price bracket ("I know your budget was X but I really think it's worth you seeing this, even at X+50K...)

You can report if they signed up to a professional body

http://www.nfopp-regulation.co.uk/complaints/

Pretty sure this would fall under one of these:

12 General duty to uphold high standards of ethical and professional
behaviour
12.1. No member shall do any act (whether in business or otherwise) which:
12.1.1. Involves dishonesty, deceitful behaviour, or misrepresentation; or
12.1.2. Involves unprofessional practice or practice that is unfair to members of the public; or
12.1.3. In any other way brings the NFoPP or any of its divisions or subsidiaries into disrepute.

NFOPP-REGULATION.CO.UK "http://www.nfopp-regulation.co.uk/media/952372/nfopp-conduct-and-membership-rules.pdf"

If they give you bad advice, you can have them under (I think) the financial ombudsman.

Yep I was more or less interegated over the phone and had to argue my point forward even though we owned our home outright. It wasn't until I had given him my brokers number and told him to talk to him. They wouldn't accept my offer and that was the asking price and the deal would be done within 2 months. Anyway looking forward to moving in 3 days time. I wish you luck, but be strong is all I can say.

Two estate agents in the last month asked to see a copy of my bank statement, despite the fact I'd exchanged on my current place and had a decision in principle.

They were invited to do one and I asked my solicitor to give them a call to confirm that I had the cash. But I got a really hard sell on the in-house mortgage; you'd be mad to use an estate-agent brokered mortgage.

Flaperon, I agree when we bought our first house in 2007 the estate agent mortgage advisor told us we'd be lucky to get a mortgage even with our deposit. We went to a couple of banks and a building society who told us we could have almost double the amount we needed. The guy was clueless and very patronising, we where in our early twenties with good jobs and savings, but he spoke to us like we where 10 years old, stupid and wasting everyone's time. Safe to say we'd never go back to them and when we come to sell our property we won't be using that agency.

Massively dodgy. They'll know exactly what your highest offer could be. Pretty certain its against the rules - letter through vendors door.

The estate agent has to be sure you have the finances in place before they can formally confirm the offer acceptance.

It would be a bit shit if vendors are having properties taken off the market only to find out later the purchaser has no way of actually buying the house.

But you are absolutely free to use whoever you want to arrange the finance-the EA only needs to see a copy of the mortgage offer or proof of other funds.

If you look at the national estate agents rules I think I'm right in saying you'll see that financial qualification is a requirement before an offer can be formally put forward.

Edit: note I insure estate agents against dodgy behaviour so have good working knowledge of them...

Impossible for an agent to see an offer. You only get an offer from a lender when the property you are buying has had a mortgage valuation done by the lender. The agent might ask to see your agreement in principle.

Apologies-yes it is the AiP they need. Was just getting off the train when I was typing.

But they do need to see it...

When i've bought places (admittedly only two) i've only shown the AIP after the offer has been accepted. They asked before, I pointed out that negotiating was not about showing your hand, and they accepted that.

If you look at the national estate agents rules I think I'm right in saying you'll see that financial qualification is a requirement before an offer can be formally put forward.

Edit: note I insure estate agents against dodgy behaviour so have good working knowledge of them...

Clearly not that good a working knowledge! Have a look at the estate agents act 1979 and related regulations (e.g. The Estate Agents (Undesirable Practices) (No. 2) Order 1991 SI 1991 No. 1302). Rather than quote the act or regulation, here's the OFT guidance with a handy look up table at the back ( http://www.cimaglobal.com/Documents/ImportedDocuments/The_estate_agency_guide_jan06.pdf).

You must not discriminate against potential buyers because they don’t want, or
might refuse, to take services from you or a connected person, or someone
from whom you or a connected person may receive financial benefits.

For example, you must not:
* refuse to provide information about property to these buyers
* take longer to forward property particulars to these buyers than to others
* make additional requirements of these buyers as a condition of passing on
an offer - for example, make them have a mortgage survey before you will
pass on their offers.

So OP - i'd a) tell the estate agent to do one and quote the act b) post your offer through the door c) report the agent for unfair practices

OK. Scenario for you.

You accept an offer and take the house off the market.

Two weeks later the EA calls you and says terribly sorry, your buyer can't actually buy the house-we never checked their financials.

You then have to re-market and potentially have to accept a lower offer.

Simply can't work like that-the buyer must be financially qualified before an offer can be 'formally' put forward.

The EA can advise of offers and you can say yes to them but before they put the sale to STC they need to FQ the buyer.

Trust me, if a seller lost money because the EA didn't FQ the buyer then that would be a professional negligence claim. I know I've seen them (14 years reasonably senior professional negligence underwriter).

Bear in mind either party can pull out or renegotiate until exchange...

But no, the EA cannot make you use their advisers other than to FQ you.

Simply can't work like that-the buyer must be financially qualified before an offer can be 'formally' put forward.

The EA can advise of offers and you can say yes to them but before they put the sale to STC they need to FQ the buyer.

Bullshit. It's not up to the EA to decide who and who can't offer on a property, unless the vendor has given them that authority. It [i]is[/i] up to them to advise the vendor of all and any offers recieved and the status of the buyer. It is then up to the vendor to decide whether they wish to accept offers from buyers yet to have a MIP, having a MIP, Cash buyers or whatever.
I'd be pretty pissed off if my agent took it on themselves to filter offers in this way, and as a buyer I'd be very pissed off if an agent demanded I speak to their mortgage fella before forwarding my offer.

Showing the AiP to the agent; yeah I can get that. There is no way whatsoever I would be spending an hour in there though. It would literally be showing the AiP, not even sitting down and leaving straight after.

@wrecker-that's all you have to do. No appointments etc with their adviser though - that's not OK.

We managed to buy a house without the EA seeing anything. In fact we exchanged without the solicitor seeing proof that we'd actually got the full 20% deposit.

The agent acts for the seller and this could be an arrangement between the seller and agent that all offers will be checked as financially viable. Who cares!!!! Show them your AIP and tell them to update you on your offer ASAP or by close of business. Why bother getting all worked up about? By the way an AIP agreement in principle ain't really worth a lot as it does confirm your credit worthiness but until all info credit search, credit score, payslips or accounts for self employed, maybe 3 months statements, full ID, maybe proof of child benefit / tax credits, mortgage valuation etc etc you have not got an offer. So even with an AIP things still get declined.

Ebygomm did you complete without proof of deposit to the solicitor????

No we exchanged with 10% deposit, the remaining 10% was transferred prior to completion but we nobody had ever asked for proof that we had the full 20% prior to exchange

But you showed the proof of deposit to your solicitor before completion though!?!? All though strange your solicitor commits you to purchase(by exchanging) without crossing all T's dotting all i's

The solicitor of course had the full deposit prior to completion. I just found it odd that they would allow exchange without being 100% sure that we could actually complete. So the idea that it is some sort of legal requirement for the EA to see proof of funds sounds incredibly unlikely.

My solicitor got really arsy when i didnt want to take my nationwide agreement in principal forward with his inhouse team,

Nowt to do with his in house team being half a % more for same product.

He did infer this would slow things down.

We still completed on time (to miss stamp duty)

Solicitors are about the worst professional negligence risk you can insure-they make so many mistakes and cut so many corners it's untrue.

Conveyancing solicitors find it very hard and very expensive to find cover as they are about the worst.

Don't belive me-find a friendly underwriter who will happily confirm.

We managed to buy a house without the EA seeing anything. In fact we exchanged without the solicitor seeing proof that we'd actually got the full 20% deposit.

Likewise, the solicitor got in writing from me (email) that I had the funds and that was enough. As I was employing them, i guess they decided to take my word for it.

Last time I got an AIP it was for way more than I ended up paying. No way would I show that to someone acting for the vendor, that's stupid - "Don't worry Mr Buyer - hold out for another 20 grand, I know he's good for it".

Either estate agent thinks you're serious or you're not.

Solicitors have to confirm deposit and deposit source for money laundering purposes.

Simply can't work like that-the buyer must be financially qualified before an offer can be 'formally' put forward.

The EA can advise of offers and you can say yes to them but before they put the sale to STC they need to FQ the buyer.

Trust me, if a seller lost money because the EA didn't FQ the buyer then that would be a professional negligence claim. I know I've seen them (14 years reasonably senior professional negligence underwriter).

Bear in mind either party can pull out or renegotiate until exchange...

But no, the EA cannot make you use their advisers other than to FQ you.

Did you read the OFT guidance I posted? They can ask, and the seller might make it a condition of accepting the offer, but there is no legal requirement to do this.

Solicitors have to confirm deposit and deposit source for money laundering purposes.

Pretty certain, mine just asked for the account it'd come from and I said my savings account and the account numbers. Don't recall any bank statements flying about.

I have been told I must be FQ by the independent advisor before they will place the offer. I'll be taking in the MiP which states we can borrow more than the offer is. They have also asked for the full works as if applying for a mortgage, ID, 3 months payslips etc... Which I won't be doing. I'll sit down have a polite 15min conversation about the best 5 year deal they can offer but I won't be doing any more. Whether they tell me they are independent or not as far as I am concerned it is a conflict of interest. No way I could ever prove they disclosed my details even if there are laws about it.

Apparently they have also contacted my EA we have sold with asking for our solicitors details.

Last offer we made, that EA contacted our EA to check we were under offer and that was enough along with out verbal conformation we have a MiP.

Hang on-a solicitor let you exchange without seeing actual proof of funding?! Unbelievable (figuratively, I'm not disputing your claim).

Look, just because people haven't had to doesn't mean it's the right way to do things.

The solicitor funding bollocks is all after the offer is agreed (subject to contract). No agent ever had any knowledge of our funds when we bought a couple of years ago.

Does anyone know if this stuff happens in Scotland?

Accept that all EAs are duplicitous, and out for their own interests, it's far easier then you don't expect better. I congratulate my cats when they don't steal chicken if I leave it out, my Mrs would be offended if I did say the same to her, but I judge them by different standards.

Don't expect estate agents to operate in your best interests, they operate in theirs first, and by extension their clients. Most EAs will have in their contracts they will check buyers viability, if they combine this obligation with a chance to sell to the gullable then happy days all round.

It's pointless anyway, because at best they can go for their own DIP, which as already said is a waste of time as there are no credit checks, no valuation etc, if you have the time then go, otherwise refuse and make it clear that you will never buy their products and you are can pass any credit check or affordability check they throw at you.

EAs do not have to satisfy the same regulations as solicitors as they don't handle your cash, and as a result have to fulfill money laundering so will normally give in if you push it. If they insist they think you are borderline, and you can't convince them, then you have to decide if the house is worth a visit to the EA.

And if you think that your credit worthiness (as in having a big DIP), will mean that you will pay more, you probably shouldn't be negotiationing without your Mum present. Best deals are won by rich tighwads, not people on the edge of their borrowing limit.

Scotland is different because acceptance of offer is the equivalent of exchanging here so you'd be mad not to have funding in lave because once your offer is accepted-no going back.

No gazumping in Scotland...

Little update for those going through the same situation:

Went into the office was assured of independence and they could loose their job if information was passed to agent, no response to how could I prove it anyway?

Politely refused to provide any financial details other than the MiP details (yes I did give the upper amount which I didn't really want to, but stated I wouldn't be borrowing that much due to LTV). Spent 30mins looking at deals none of which were better. Then very strange conversation where the independent mortgage advisors tells me there are 2 other higher offers on the table, and if I was any increase available as they think I won't get the property. Now, what has this to do with the advisor? Should they not know this information?

Anyways, my wife spoke to the EA to give a best and final offer, and mention she did not approve of the practise of forcing us to see their advisor before passing on our offer as it was against regulation. She was passed to a chap who was said to be the branch manager (*) who then proceeded to have an argument with her saying she was getting 'in a twist' and that I had been unhelpful and obstructive and they had not seen any figures to FQ us.....this did not go down very well with the missus.

She wanders into speak to our current EA (who are very good), who happen to be 3 doors down, who instantly state this is illegal practise, and that infact the person she spoke to was not the branch manager. So she is now complaining and thinking about raising it with the NAofEA.

This is a well known national chain, with 3 highstreet brands, who if I understand it right are actually owned by the 'independent' mortgage company...

What a absolute crock of shit.

Basically no way our offer will be put forward in a good light though after my wife's helpful intervention.

I'll be putting a letter through the vendors door stating the situation and currently only just resisting naming and shaming the EA on here and any other bit of social media I can find....

Thanks, dbg, I appreciate the Scottish system is different, I wondered if this kind of dealing might happen earlier in the process.

there are 2 other higher offers on the table, and if I was any increase available as they think I won't get the property.

Wow!

You have no way of knowing if the other offers even exist, going by the conduct of the EA so far. Definitely contact the vendor in the nicest possible terms to confirm your offer and make sure they've received it.

It amazes me that there is no ombudsman responsible for what is far and away nearly everyone's largest purchase. A voluntary association doesn't really cut it...

The problem is, the Vendor may not care unless they want a fast sale....after all, the EA is trying to achieve the highest sales price possible for them...something that they will want.

Total codswallop. They're just trying to get business from you by any means they can. They know you're serious and want to try any trick in the book to possibly get you to pay thm to get a mortgage offer that you already have. Just explian to them that you have a long term relatuonship with your trusted IFA and would feel bad breaching that bond of trust.

There is an ombudsman. The Property Ombudsman. Also just about every EA is also a member of one of 6 or so trade bodies easily of whom have a code of conduct.

You can complain to them also.

The OfT rules refer to discrimination against purchasers for not taking additional services and not the EA carrying out their professional (used loosely as this is EA's we're talking about) duty.

Checking someone can actually buy the property falls very much under professional duty...

The problem is, the Vendor may not care unless they want a fast sale....after all, the EA is trying to achieve the highest sales price possible for them...something that they will want.

Oh no they're not. The estate agent is paid by commission so they want a sale. Their commission varies so little between offers that they have no interest whatsoever in securing a higher price for the vendor.

The only way to do that is to modify the contract slightly to include a £2k bonus (or whatever you want) conditional on them achieving the asking price.

Flaperon - Member
they have no interest whatsoever in securing a higher price for the vendor.

You DO actually see what gash that is?

Agents regularly selling houses at higher prices get more new clients, they can advertise % sales above home report value, reputation, repeat business and so on. Not to mention the slightly higher commission. If they can make £100 more by making a few more phone calls they'll do it, logically so.

You DO actually see what gash that is?

Agents regularly selling houses at higher prices get more new clients, they can advertise % sales above home report value, reputation, repeat business and so on. Not to mention the slightly higher commission. If they can make £100 more by making a few more phone calls they'll do it, logically so.

Not total gash.

An extra £100 = £10000 rise in sale price (roughly).

On a million quid ish house, that might take minutes - on £100k flat, it'll take a while.

Don't kid yourself that they act for the vendor, they are in it for themselves...

We sold and bought a few months ago, we neither gave any proof of finance nor requested any from our buyer, at the time of making and accepting offers. I had no idea that happened these days.

Why on earth would you take your house off the market not knowing that the buyer could actually afford it?

Genuine question.

Say you found out 6 weeks in that they couldn't and didn't have a mortgage offer. You're back to square one in marketing it and quite possibly losing the house you're buying due to the delays and taking a hit on your sale price because the new offers are lower.

I'm in the process of selling my mums house and whilst we provisionally accepted an offer I wouldn't take it formally off the market until the buyer had an AiP.

I'm in the process of selling my mums house and whilst we provisionally accepted an offer I wouldn't take it formally off the market until the buyer had an AiP.

What would you do with a cash buyer?
There are many reasons why a sale could fall through with lack of finance being just one.
We took ours off the market for a cash buyer. Sometimes you just have to trust people. Old fashioned I know. It took a little longer than anticipated but came good in the end.

I'd want proof still and a cash buyer can still provide that through bank statements etc.

No, I wouldn't trust anyone with that kind of money at stake. Note our purchaser is 80% cash.

I can understand needing to provide evidence of a mortgage in principle after an offer has been accepted. Pretty sure that's how I've done it in the past.

Never heard of an agent demanding to see all your financial details before even passing an offer on though - deeply fishy.

Was it Fox and Sons estate agents?

To pass an offer on-no. To formally recommend it and to take the it off the market - yes

If you lost £10k because you had to re-market and found out that the reason the sale fell through was because your EA didn't even check the purchaser could actually go through with the deal you'd be wanting that £10k off them sharpish.

This happens, I've seen the claims...

Bad news, bring in your own Broker and then report them after you purchased the House.
Good Luck

Why on earth would you take your house off the market not knowing that the buyer could actually afford it?
Genuine question.
Say you found out 6 weeks in that they couldn't and didn't have a mortgage offer

Isn't this where the solicitors come in? The buyers solicitor must have the buyers mortgage details and has professional standards to uphold. Wouldn't be in their interests to continue if offer wasn't in place.

I've not gone through any 'proof of mortgage' process when I've bought anywhere. i've been asked, and given an honest answer, but there is a huge conflict of interest in the estate agent (whose job is to get the highest price for the seller) knowing exactly how much the buyer can afford.

There are all sorts of other ways the buyer can waste time and drop out. As soon as solicitors involved and searches start the buyer has costs so there are lots of incentives NOT to try to buy something they haven't got funding for.

You could be some weeks down the line before solicitors get involved and the other people interested in your property may have found something else. You could be put back a couple of months and lost the house you're buying as a result.

It's absolutely the EA's job to vet (not sell them shit they don't want-that is absolutely wrong) potential purchasers to weed out the time wasters.

Proof of ability to purchase falls well within this. Don't forget their professional duty is to the seller not the buyer.

/flounce

If anyone else on here has underwritten estate agents, studied what exposures there may be to a professional negligence insurer, is aware of what professional duties apply to various trades, seen claims from EA's etc then feel free to discuss if you disagree with this.

I know-experts and who needs them etc.

/flounce over

And note the behaviour of the EA at the OP's meeting is entirely unacceptable but generally speaking even if an EA does know you can afford more they can't force you to make a higher offer.

I thought this was how it worked (at least it was how it worked for us)

- Offer made
- Offer accepted
- Solicitor instructed
- Paperwork sent to EA, house listed as SSC

Doesn't have to be in that order. House can be listed STC as soon as offer is accepted.

Indeed the buyer may stipulate for their offer to stand the house must be taken off the market immediately.

just show them one bank statement of whatever account has the deposit in and the agreement in principle.
just because it adds up to more than the asking price means nothing.

then just play hardball and dont budge from you final offer. i wouldn’t have wasted my time seeing the in house broker. i would have dismissed that straight away and just told them ‘no thanks i have a product in place that i have no intention of changing’.

i’m not a seasoned property buyer but it doesn't take long to work out estate agents are a bunch of lying ****s. mine tried to run me up but i just said ‘no i’m done here now as thats my max and whatever you say has no way of increasing that offer unless you want to stick your hand in your pocket and chip in’

deal done.

I've only ever wanted to buy twice, and have only had to place two offers.

The first time we went through this 'recommended financial adviser' BS. I don't think it necessarily effected our purchase process, but it puts you in a much weaker negotiation point if you hand over all the details on what you can 'afford'.

I'm pretty sure the second time of trying my offer was never passed to the vendor. We were told that our offer had been rejected despite being higher. I don't think it was the vendor who made that choice, it was part of the agents 'selection of suitable purchasers' process - apparently that is legit if the vendor signs up to it. I guess most would assume is standard practice, and don't question it. The house was sold to the agents brother instead :s