[Closed] Is there such a thing called Road Tax?

No it's Vehicle Excise Duty. Road tax was abolished ages ago. 1920's I think

EDIT: Ahh 1930's

started reading, blood boiling already

Good to see stuff like this hitting the mainstream media. The BBC's had a few bits and bobs on lately which try to promote more sensible attitudes towards cyclists.

I wonder if Singletrack and other cycling magazines could club together and print a load of in-car stickers saying "I pay Vehicle Excise Duty not Road Tax" (or some such)?

Ideally these might be disseminated for free in-magazine, but I'd happily pay and display.

Great to see this. I am pleased.

To those drivers who still believe Road Tax exists : I don't see you shouting at, and driving at, the cars which pay zero VED. So you can't even follow your own faulty logic!

Many government agencies have now started calling VED "car tax"............... The Post Office calls it car tax. So does gov.uk, the government website formed to communicate simply. So does the Campaign for Clear English. And the AA.

Many a cycle commuter in the UK has confronted a dangerous driver,

Even in an article like this, cyclists are still the ones being confrontational I see.

The best argument to respond to "I pay road tax..." goes like this:

It's vehicle tax not road tax - roads are paid for out of income tax. I paid xx grand last year. How much income tax do you pay?

This is on radio4 now

I regularly try and run those stupid electric cars off the road in my big diesel car, putting their drivers lives at risk whenever possible. They don't pay road tax and have no right to be on the roads! 😉

Seriously though, is this still being discussed? Are people that uninformed? Maybe the VED web site and literature needs to make it a lot more explicit what's being paid for.

Should be called vehicle omissions tax or something which makes it clearer what/why you're paying

+1 for this. Pollution tax gets my vote. Simple to understand.

Yes, people are that uninformed. Incidentally, I noticed a car advert a few months back which stated that "Road Tax" for a year was included...

i had a knob shout it at me on Monday night as he cut me up... just before the lights went red and i then had about 1 1/2 mins to explain to him how much of an ignorant twunt he was because i also paid for the roads through all the taxes i paid.
He didn't have a reasoned response, more of a grunt and a crude gesture

Maybe the VED web site and literature needs to make it a lot more explicit what's being paid for.

You're assuming these people can read

Maybe the VED web site and literature needs to make it a lot more explicit what's being paid for.
You're assuming these people can read

They can apparently fill in the form. Maybe they get a responsible adult to help them. Assuming of course that they've actually bothered to pay it at all.

I for one would welcome a taxation priority scheme on roads...as a 40% taxpayer most motorists would have to get out of may way as I ride past on my bike, and no doubt so would most lorries that are working for major companies like Amazon etc.

Folk only seem to pay attention when there's a cost involved. I've thought for a while now that if the VED reminder from DVLA included something like this:

[img] [/img]

Say with the 'potential' column replaced by a list of the costs for each category then maybe, just maybe, a proportion of the great uninformed might understand the reality of it all.

Just google 'Road Tax' and you'll see how commonly used it is.

eg Parkers "Road Tax" rates:
http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/advice/road-tax-guide/

NHS:
http://www.nhs.uk/CarersDirect/guide/transport/Pages/road-tax-exemptions.aspx

My other bicycle is a tank. What were you saying about this Road Tax thing?

Good feature on this on R4 Today at ~08:55 today.

And what about those damned Radio 4 listeners able to listen to their beloved Woman's Hour because I pay a TV license fee - makes my blood boil!

Actually the argument for both is pretty much the same. most radio listeners by a TV license also and a good deal of cyclists own a car and thus pay VED.

Yes, heard the [brief] Home Service broadcast.

Good luck to the chap setting up that website, but he's going to have to do a lot of converting amongst the general public and politicians ("Car Tax" sounds like a bad thing, so people will always use that wording) to get people on side.

What are the odds that this makes it on to Jeremy Vine's show today? I'm sure that would make for blood boiling listening!

What we should do is do away with the stupid thing altogether. It's just 'a' tax and has no bearing whatsoever on cars, lorries, bikes or anything else that uses the roads.

if you want to tax vehicles fairly then stick (more) tax on fuel. That way people who use their vehicles more, pay more tax. It still needs to come with the highlights that it doesn't pay for the roads but it means that the tax for joe bobbins who uses his car all the time, is more than the tax I pay because I help the environment/congestion/parking/life etc by using my bike while both my cars are sat at home doing nothing.

this approach will also encourage safer driving, more economical cars, visiting foreigners will pay more into our tax pots and dickheads on the roads will have far less of an argument.

That article also suggests that cyclists go around constantly cutting poor car drivers up and running red lights. What a load of tosh. No mention of all the car drivers who cut up cyclists (often injuring or killing them) nor of the hundreds of thousands of car drivers who jump red lights. One almost killed me this morning when he went through red that had been there for at least 5 seconds. but I still don't think all car drivers jump red lights.

Yeah put it all on fuel. Will upset many people though as price will jump up a lot and people complain at the price as it is - they won't appreciate the VED saving. But I don't care about that, just the politicians do. Would mean efficiency counts for more and that's a good thing - help us hit our pollution targets too.

As a bunch of cyclists, well thats why we're here, we're talking to the converted on here.

I trolled a few comments on UKClimbing where there are actually some non-cycling car drivers and sure enough they dont all agree. Sigh.

Antipathy of motorists toward cyclists is jealousy plain and simple.
Drivers feel persecuted by rules, fines and high taxation (they aren't really though)

The experience of most people driving also differs vastly from the ideal of open roads and freedom that they were no doubt sold at some point. This cognitive dissonance is another source of frustration for them.

Cyclists in comparison get a free ride.

And look there goes a cyclist going through a RED LIGHT!!

BLOODY CYCLISTS!!!!

&@#!!! %$£@!!!!

DON'T EVEN PAY ROAD TAX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

if you want to tax vehicles fairly then stick (more) tax on fuel.

Is the amount of tax collected from VED significant compared to tax from fuel anyway? Looks like at least half of fuel cost is tax so every time I fill up that's about 50 quid in tax. My tax disc cost me £125 so that's a little more than two visits to the pump. Not that much really.

I'd guess that you wouldn't have to raise tax on fuel much to cover the cost of removing VED. Not exactly a vote winner though!

[quote=mrblobby ]if you want to tax vehicles fairly then stick (more) tax on fuel.
Is the amount of tax collected from VED significant compared to tax from fuel anyway? Looks like at least half of fuel cost is tax so every time I fill up that's about 50 quid in tax. My tax disc cost me £125 so that's a little more than two visits to the pump. Not that much really.
I'd guess that you wouldn't have to raise tax on fuel much to cover the cost of removing VED. Not exactly a vote winner though!
You'd also make savings on the cost of collecting & enforcing VED though. Mind you, VED could also be rolled into the MOT cost.

Rough back of a fag packet, you'd need an extra 10p tax a litre to cover the cost of VED (assuming averages of 12k a year milage, 40mpg, 137.5 pence per litre.) And that's not taking into account all the VED collection saving.

Currently VED means you get a nice little 'Tax' disc to put in your car/truck/tractor window, which is also supposed to help identify the legitimacy of a motorised vehicle on the road. If it was scrapped this disc would be lost....

....unless it was included on your MOT certificate and when your vehicle passed it's MOT you got something to stick in the window.

That way it should also be easier to identify whether it should be on the road or not - no MOT, no disc.

I've said it before and I'll say it again...

'Road tax' is a colloquialism, and a perfectly accurate one at that. If one buys three identical cars producing identical emissions, races one on race tracks, rallies one in private grounds, and drives one on the public roads, guess what, only the car driven on the public roads is required to pay a tax..hence 'road tax'. Simple.

Now as to 'road tax' not paying for the roads...really? Next your going to tell me 'alcohol tax' (another colloquialism) doesn't pay for alcohol, or that 'tobacco tax' (yet another colloquialism) doesn't pay for tobacco! Taxes are named after what activity invokes the tax, not on the destination of revenue. Again, really really simple stuff.

The police don't have gangs of hawk-eyed officers wandering the streets looking at tax disks. Pretty much everyone who is nicked for car tax evasion is captured by a camera that has access to the VED database.

I don't see why it's necessary anyway. DVLA know all registered cars, they have access to the insurance database and all MOT records are in the system too. They can easily identify cars that have no MOT or insurance and have not been SORN. Or they could just send you a bit of paper to stick in your window when your MOT is filed, there doesn't have to be a cost associated with it.

Edit...

only the car driven on the public roads is required to pay a tax..hence 'road tax'. Simple.

Many cars are exempt even when driven on the public road.... so not that simple 🙂 Emissions tax maybe more accurate.

Road tax is not ring-fenced for the roads, there's a difference. By tying revenue gathered from VED into road expenditure, the drivers complaining would have a point but the two streams aren't linked in any way. Alcohol tax pays for the roads as well. All taxes end up paying for everything, that argument has no basis, there's just a big pot.
No-one is saying the money isn't needed, more that there needs to be some resolution that removes the perception that road tax provides some unalienable right to use the roads, more so than groups who don't pay road tax.

Many cars are exempt even when driven on the public road.... so not that simple

Doesn't alter what I said at all

Emissions tax maybe more accurate.

When I've already shown that of three cars producing identical emissions only a car driven on the public roads would be required to pay? Seriously? Maybe you need to re-read what I wrote?

It's no different to National Insurance really in terms of public perception.

Emissions tax maybe more accurate.
When I've already shown that of three cars producing identical emissions only a car driven on the public roads would be required to pay? Seriously? Maybe you need to re-read what I wrote?

Emissions on public road tax 🙂

Edit: Though that is a good argument for just scrapping VED and putting up fuel duty!

All taxes end up paying for everything...

Agreed

...there needs to be some resolution that removes the perception that road tax provides some unalienable right to use the roads...

Agreed

And the best way forward is always the truth, plain and simple. Trying to suggest that there is no such thing as 'road tax' just doesn't get past even the most cursory of glances. In so far as facts and accuracy are concerned, the BBC once again falls flat on its face whilst bending over backwards trying to appease the great unwashed.

The whole "there's no such thing as road tax" is just totally unhelpful- achieves nothing, just makes you look like a *. Does anyone really think the dialogue will go like this:

"You don't pay road tax you *, get off the road or I'll run you down"
"Actually I think you'll find that road tax was abolished and replaced with vehicle excise duty"
"Oh really? Well I stand corrected, I shall no longer drive into cyclists"

It doesn't matter what it's called. It's just a justification for hate, it's not a reason for it. And "road tax" is just a shorthand for VED anyway- it crops up all the time, even on .gov websites.

The whole "there's no such thing as road tax" is just totally unhelpful- achieves nothing, just makes you look like a ****.

This. In fact, that's probably what I should have just typed!

When I've already shown that of three cars producing identical emissions only a car driven on the public roads would be required to pay? Seriously? Maybe you need to re-read what I wrote?

Its amazing how many people seem to miss this obvious fact. If a car is on the road they have had to pay (a lot) of tax to get it there, its unsurprising they (incorrectly) think they have some rights. The focus on VED/Road tax from both sides is stupid, why cant everyone just get along... 🙄

Any regular commuter in Britain will have at some point come across someone in a vehicle who has told them to get off the road because they don't pay road tax. That's the origin of Carlton's campaign. Yes, it's pointless using the specifics when you have a monkey hanging out of a lorry window shouting at you but if it helps (and I believe it has), change media behaviour which in turn influences stupid people, then it's worthile pursuing.

As I say though, it'll never carry much weight with cyclehaters in general but it will stop them believing there's this huge groundswell of legitimate support for their hatred.

As a VED-paying car owner and cyclist, I might have to go in search of some pre-tax classic cars today and shout at the owners.

I've been on the end of the "You don't pay road tax" argument more times than I care to remember - not just angry motorists, but work colleagues, family members and of course [i]every[/i] single public internet conversation about bikes. [i]Ever[/i].

So yeah - I'm [i]very[/i] pleased the BBC are highlighting this - though I doubt it will make much odds.

I've already shown that of three cars producing identical emissions only a car driven on the public roads would be required to pay?

I can brew my own beer, drink it and never pay Alcohol Tax.
So by your logic it's really a tax on using pubs and off licences?

Vehicle Tax is [i]not[/i] a tax to use the public roads because everyone can use the roads for free (try walking, or a bike, or a horse).

And it's not even a tax on using a car on public roads, because millions of cars use public roads every day and don't need to pay it.

'Road tax' is a colloquialism, and a perfectly accurate one at that. If one buys three identical cars producing identical emissions, races one on race tracks, rallies one in private grounds, and drives one on the public roads, guess what, only the car driven on the public roads is required to pay a tax..hence 'road tax'. Simple.

Until you consider all the bicycles, agricultural vehicles, electric cars, horses, mobility scooters, all of which are also road users. If it's a 'road tax', why don't they have to pay it? It's exactly the same argument.

Now as to 'road tax' not paying for the roads...really? Next your going to tell me 'alcohol tax' (another colloquialism) doesn't pay for alcohol...

The mistake you're making here is assuming that the great unwashed aren't bloody ignorant. Unfortunately, history has proved time and again that this simply isn't the case. "Road tax" might be a handy colloquialism of arguable validity, but its use perpetuates the widely believed myth that it does, in fact, pay for road maintenance (as demonstrated by some of the anecdotes here).

Language is a powerful thing, and words often carry meaning beyond their literal definition. "****" is a contraction of "****stani" just as "Scot" is a contraction of Scottish / Scotsman, nothing more; but try using it next time you need to refer to a gentleman of said ethnic persuasion and see how far that gets you.

You can argue all you like about what it should be called and whether or not it's a valid term, but the bottom line is that the "road tax" nomenclature is misleading. [i]That [/i]is the simple bit.

I'd be happy to display a "tax disc" - as a zero-rated vehicle that's fine by me and it'd shut up a lot of this crap from drivers.

I'd accept mandatory 3rd party insurance, too (although it's not really workable is it - what would the penalty be, for a start ?)
If it was forced upon us all, and assuming somebody like CTC or BC ran it at something like non-profit basis it'd be cheap and it could also operate as a transport industry and general advocate speaking on behalf of millions of members.

Licensing/MOT - unworkable and needless since you're very unlikely to hurt other road users regardless of the state of your bike and you'd be insured if you did

Northwind - Member

As a VED-paying car owner and cyclist, I might have to go in search of some pre-tax classic cars today and shout at the owners.

You could find some soldiers driving green (coloured green: their emissions are amongst the worst) vehicles, diplomats staff cars, that bloke who drives the prime minister round, ambulancemen, fire engines, coppers and disabled people and shout at them too. Bleddy spongers. And of course Pruis drivers. 😀 [edit] oh i forgot tractors. Them too.

PS just realised today it was a week since I last drove my car. That's about £4.50 'road tax' Ihave paid this week for just having it parked there and instead my clogging the roads with my bike all week.

I'd be happy to display a "tax disc" ... I'd accept mandatory 3rd party insurance, too

It wouldn't shut the ****ers up though would it? Even if we paid more "road tax" than cars, had full insurance, never jumped reds, always rode single file, never filtered, never rode on pavements, and tugged our forelocks to every overprivileged twonk in a car who blats past giving us no room at all, some drivers would still hate us and still want us off "their" tarmac.

In summary: the sort of people who batter on about 'road tax' will never be happy. Good.

Now as to 'road tax' not paying for the roads...really?

Except that motorists claim that because we don't pay VED we don't pay for the upkeep of roads. We know that's not true, and we need to get the debate away from the idea that "road tax" is hypothecated.

I'd accept mandatory 3rd party insurance, too (although it's not really workable is it - what would the penalty be, for a start ?)
If it was forced upon us all, and assuming somebody like CTC or BC ran it at something like non-profit basis it'd be cheap

As a CTC member you get 3rd party cover already as standard. £10M worth IIRC. This alone makes the membership fees worthwhile as far as I'm concerned.

Since the great heck train crash there is theoretically no limit to 'liability' payouts for motor insurance, if there was still a limit (iirc the minimum on cheapy third party policies used to be £1m) i wonder how much of the overall cost of motor insurance this would be for a car. (and don't forget the rest of the stuff you get with ctc membership.) This is a nice statistic to trot out in the "cyclists should be insured" debate: if £41 membership [i]includes[/i] £10m cover, the insurance underwriter must be very sure of the actual incidence, risks and consequences of a cyclist-fault accident to offer it that affordably. Out of interest I wonder how much out of that £41 overall membership fee the ctc pay their underwriter/insurer per member?

The simplest response to the "I pay road tax" line is "so do I" - assuming you're part of the car-owning majority of cyclists.

Whilst I think the campaign to get rid of the term road tax is a worthwhile one, a much more useful win would be to get rid of the ludicrous notion that "cyclists" and "motorists" are different people.

If anyone is feeling especially bloody minded, you can point out that the upkeep of the [u][i]local[/i][/u] highways and pavements actually comes from your county council's council/community/poll tax.

So if you're riding on one of your local non trunk roads and some forkwit comes out with the usual cobblers, ask them where they live. If they're not local, tell to them "git orrf moi road".*

* [i]Obviously this argument only works under certain circumstances and is probably only suited to making you feel morally correct/superior[/i]

The simplest response to the "I pay road tax" line is "so do I" - assuming you're part of the car-owning majority of cyclists.

In a startling twist of logic they will then say, without a hint of irony, something about how it is a tax on the individual vehicle not on the road!

🙄

IMO it should be ignored. I don't give a pigs fanny who's paid for what. Just treat people reasonably. Is it really that bloody difficult?

An interesting tactic is agreeing with them:

"You're quite right. I don't understand why we let unemployed folk on the roads either. They haven't paid any income tax have they? In fact I reckon only folk paying top rate income tax should be allowed on the roads. Or at the very least they should be given their own special lanes."

As a CTC member you get 3rd party cover already as standard. £10M worth IIRC. This alone makes the membership fees worthwhile as far as I'm concerned.

Do you not have household insurance then?

...the bottom line is that the "road tax" nomenclature is misleading. That is the simple bit.

How so?

'Alcohol tax' a tax some people pay to purchase alcohol

'Tobacco tax' a tax some people pay to purchase tobacco

'Inheritance tax' a tax some people pay on any inheritance

'Income tax' a tax some people pay on their income

'Road tax' a tax some people pay to use the roads

Exactly which part is misleading, and misleading to who? 😯

Edit: Ah, I see you've already covered this with your

...bloody ignorant...great unwashed...

why do we have to stoop to their level?

Because being right doesn't do you any good when you're under a bus.

Exactly which part is misleading, and misleading to who?

this bit:

'Road tax' a tax some people pay to use the roads

because it isn't. Everybody is entitled to use the roads.

I think it should be a PAYG type tax rolled into the cost of fuel. It's unfair that I have to pay £1065 in the first year then £490 a year subsequently, when people who do many more miles than I do pay less but contribute to polluting the earth far more. It sucks and it's stupid.

However little tax (of whatever nature) someone pays it's still not ok to try to injure or kill them.

Karinofnine - Member

However little tax (of whatever nature) someone pays it's still not ok to try to injure or kill them.

+1