You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
The world has gone crazy.
I'm not sure it has, although someone who compares wearing a face covering during an epidemic with adulation for a paramilitary organisation, which was responsible for organising the mass murder of millions of people in death camps, probably has a few issues.
Being pro EU / pro face masks is apparently the other side of a coin that has Nazi insignia. The world has gone crazy.
The annoying thing there is that it's seemingly binary. If you're not anti- face masks or the EU then you must love them, there's no middle ground. The concept of "putting up with it because it's probably for the best" doesn't exist in the heads of these melts.
But (allegations against Corbyn aside) is there a link between the far left and antisemitism?
I mean, if you ignore the whole Soviet Union, and the 40+ years of Communism in Central and Eastern Europe...no.
The daft that about that of course is that the arabic race are semites and most western jews are not if you take the real meaning of the word
"anti-Semitic" means "anti-Jewish" in English, and everyone understands it as such. It's like "Caucasian" or "liberal arts" - its etymology its irrelevant to its current usage.
I mean, if you ignore the whole Soviet Union, and the 40+ years of Communism in Central and Eastern Europe…no.
Those were totalitarian states not left wing 😉
But (allegations against Corbyn aside) is there a link between the far left and antisemitism?
I mean, if you ignore the whole Soviet Union, and the 40+ years of Communism in Central and Eastern Europe…no.
You mean if you ignore history. Jews have historically held leadership roles within communist movements, from the very start of Bolshevism in Russia to more recent times in Apartheid South Africa. And today the Israeli Communist Party has seats in the Knesset.
Jewish involvement in communism has always been disproportionately high, including here in the UK. Indeed the whole ideology owes its existence to one of the most famous Jews the world has ever known.
"anti-Semitic” means “anti-Jewish”
So why not say anti-Jewish then? Because anti-Semitic doesn't mean anti-Semitic. Someone like Rachel Riley is no more Middle-Eastern/Semitic than I am African.
Those were totalitarian states not left wing 😉
Is the winky to signal that you are talking bollocks? You might call them totalitarian but to deny that communist parties are left-wing is absurd in the extreme.
Either the bloke knows full well what that insignia is or he needs helping to understand.
Call me a snowflake or whatever the term is now but that's a strong NO from me.
I've reported racist behavior at work and people said oh it's just him being a dick ect just like the OPs Facebook friends.turns out the guy I reported was a tad more than slightly "off" he was a card carrying bad egg a very bad egg indeed.
Well its obviously a facetious point but I do not see totalitarian states as left wing. They create an elite, there is not the "from each according to their abilities to each according to their needs?
USSR especially - special lanes in the roads that only the elite could use and so on. left wing rhetoric yes but was that really according to Marx's writings to create an elite with special privilege?
Maybe from 1917 - 1939 it was closer
So you were being serious.
Meeting your approval does not define whether a party is left-wing. The CPSU was left-wing. Indeed it was far-left.
Either the bloke knows full well what that insignia is or he needs helping to understand.
If the belt buckle was custom made, as claimed, I think it is reasonable to assume that he fully understands the meaning of the insignia.
NO I was being facetious. But do you really think a society that creates an elite that are given special privilege is in accordance with the writings of Marx and Engels?
I don't remember Das Kapital having a chapter on this. Creating an elite with access to cars, transport, travel and food not available to the masses? I was in russia during the transion a few months after the fall of the berlin wall. There were lanes on the roads reserved for party members only. hardly egalitarian there were bars and shops that you could only spend dollars in - unavailable to the masses.
Creation of a priveleged elite seems hardly left wing to me.
But do you really think .....
It's got bugger all to do with what I think. The CPSU was far-left by the accepted definition of the term. I do not get to define what a term means anymore than you do.
so far left includes the creation of a special class of people with privilege that is not available to the masses?
Hmm - I must read Das kapital again to see where Marx said that 🙂
Maybe from 1917 – 1939 it was closer
You mean the USSR was more authetically left wing during the years of ethnic cleansing (and subsequent mass deaths) of Koreans, Yezhovschina, the Holodomor, purges, and "Trotskyite-Zinovievite" show trials? Kinell, that's the worst No True Scotsman Socialist argument I've ever heard.
Fair enough.
I must read Das kapital again
I struggle to believe that someone who was apparently oblivious to Stalin's pre-World War 2 purges has read Das Kapital. Have you read it just the once?
😉
Aye - and yonks ago Like 40 years ago. got my dates confused over the purges.
If the belt buckle was custom made, as claimed, I think it is reasonable to assume that he fully understands the meaning of the insignia.
Yeah, reading again it's part of a collaboration piece showcasing small volume artisans, like he's some kind of Aryan race influencer... 🙄 He's having a leather belt made to pair with the buckle that "follows the same theme".
I had a look at the Instagram of the guy who made the buckle to see if he was of that type (he appears to be), turns out my mate has also bought a Viking axe necklace pendant and had the double lightning stamped into it too.
Definitely not getting an innocent "that's a catchy design, I like it" vibe about the whole thing. I'll bring it up the next time I see him, find out which of the Schutzstaffel deeds he admires the most.
At this point, if it were me I'd be questioning "mate." I'm not stuck for friends and I'm a higher-functioning sociopath.
Why would anyone put up with this shit? "Yes but he's a fr..." nah, **** him, he's a Nazi sympathiser. Go hang out with people who aren't c**ts.
You let someone like that into your home, professional clean asap.
I'd be referring him to the deradicalisation hotline*.
If he was once "normal" enough to be a mate, something/someone has pushed him down this route, and it might be possible he can turn back again. Or at least he might end up on the security services radar.
*Yes, I know its a much criticised scheme, but pretty much all we've got.
Yeah, reading again it’s part of a collaboration piece...
Not the first time there have been Nazi collaborators...
So 20 minutes ago I read this thread, and just now STW served me an advert for pro-gun clothing.
Coincidence or not?
What did you buy
What on earth is "pro-gun clothing"? A tee-shirt reading "I ❤ guns, me"?
What on earth is “pro-gun clothing”?
Stuff like this?
It's a MAGA tee-shirt. Anyone who wants to make America great again loves America and is therefore is pro-gun. Simples
Perhaps I should have screen-grabbed, but it was basically a T-shirt with what I think were some AK47 rifles and a slogan like "I don't take gun control advice from a government than armed the Taliban".
It’s a MAGA tee-shirt. Anyone who wants to make America great again loves America and is therefore is pro-gun. Simples
We may have seen different adverts? Unless you're trying to be funny?
Stuff like this?
That's actually a Proud Boys tee, so it's not so much pro-gun as pro-fascist...
We may have seen different adverts? Unless you’re trying to be funny?
I'm not seeing any adverts, and no, my comment with regards to loving America equating with being pro-gun wasn't supposed to be taken entirely seriously.
Back in the mid noughties, they did a poll in Austria where 60% of people said they had fascist sympathies.
Hofer nearly was elected with 49.3% of the vote. Then there was Joerg Haider in the ’90s.
Would that stop you buying anything Austrian?
Possibly...bearing in mind the actions of one of Austria's most (in)famous sons?
Back in the mid noughties, they did a poll in Austria where 60% of people said they had fascist sympathies.
Was that a poll of the entire country or the usual subset and extrapolate nonsense?
What motorbike does he ride?
I bet it's early 2000s, noisy 4 into 1,no rear mudguard, highish bars with a brace across it and some high end but shagged rear shocks.
Maybe I saw that T-shirt advert because they'd paid for "fascist closet" and related keywords.
That's a joke for the SEO heads.
I am very glad that I pass judgement on people who might openly display signs of being neo-Nazis.
That has had my Twitter feed suspended twice recently, once was for a post to MTG, after one of her typically vile, and hateful tweets.
I let it sit there for a couple of weeks then deleted it. I don’t use Twitter much anyway because I’d be permanently suspended.
Well its obviously a facetious point but I do not see totalitarian states as left wing.
North Korea isn’t Left Wing? Well, that’s a surprise to me. Then there was the Khmer Rouge, I think there might be a clue in the name, somewhere. Oh, and then there was Sendoro Illuminoso…
…Although they weren’t a State, more an extreme Communist group of terrorists.
North Korea isn’t Left Wing? Well, that’s a surprise to me.
You're going to be even more surprised when you discover they have the word 'Democratic' in their official name.
Just because it says it's something does not make it so. It is no more a peoples republic than it is democratic.
I let it sit there for a couple of weeks then deleted it. I don’t use Twitter much anyway because I’d be permanently suspended.
Yeah, I'm on my 4th or 5th account.
Calling out right wingers/fascists/techbros/oligarchs tends to get you deleted/suspended/blocked in very short order.
Pointing out hypocrisy and bad behaviour from yoghurt knitting lefties and green do gooders tends to either get ignored or a response/apology of sorts.
Wonder who the real snowflakes are.
We always knew who the real snowflakes were.
Often those who are most in favour of ‘free speech’ are the thinnest skinned - Alastair Stewart being a prime example.
You’re going to be even more surprised when you discover they have the word ‘Democratic’ in their official name.
Just because it says it’s something does not make it so. It is no more a peoples republic than it is democratic.
CountZero didn't refer to North Korea's official name at all.
Are you, too, denying that North Korea is a left wing regime?
denying that North Korea is a left wing regime?
Once you get a totalitarian state to that point, I don't think conventional political descriptions are of any use
Thats partly my point and also that the creation of an elite with special privilege is a long way from the teachings of Marx and Engels
That’s a joke for the SEO heads.
Lol at the tumbleweed.
I must read Das kapital again to see where Marx said that
I have 2000AD on my book shelves.No Marxism.
Mind you, they both are directed towards totalitarian regimes.
Thats partly my point and also that the creation of an elite with special privilege is a long way from the teachings of Marx and Engels
Which no doubt helps to explain why North Korea removed all references to communism from its constitution many years. Even a regime renowned for its bullshitting and blatant dishonesty couldn't maintain that ridiculous pretence.
It doesn't even maintain the leading role of the working-class in its constitution but instead that of the military.
The terms 'left wing' and 'right wing' only really apply in political systems where more than one wing is permitted. As soon as a purportedly left wing/communist/socialist/democratic government starts putting its political opponents in gulags, they are by default simply totalitarian/fascist.
Aye. Its the old " you can put a cat in a kennel and call it rover but it will never be a dog"
How does it self-identify?
I think of it as a circle rather than a continuum - the far left and far right loop around and meet at the far side
they are by default simply totalitarian/fascist.
Fascism is a right wing ideology. Totalitarianism on the other hand is simply a means of exercising power - it is not an ideology in itself. This is why you can gave both right wing and left wing totalitarian regimes.
Unless of course you also deny that Hitler was right wing, which is self-evidently absurd.
Some of these posts are like reading Animal Farm without the animals. Marxist ideals are great in principle and as a philosophical debate. They fall on their arse when they hit people though because people are generally dicks. Everyone’s equal except for the pigs.
I find it difficult to see the difference in extreme regimes. Dictatorship, facist, totalitarian etc. They all seem to have one thing in common. A ****ing nutter in charge, normally with a moustache and questionable hairstyle.
They all seem to have one thing in common. A **** nutter in charge, normally with a moustache and/or questionable hairstyle.
Are you, too, denying that North Korea is a left wing regime?
Let's see, a totalitarian 3 class state (prole, elite, deity status) where the rich enjoy great privilege and freedoms unavailable to the lower classes. Yes, I am. North Korea has enjoyed communist support but AFAIK went their seperate idealogical ways before the ceasefire was even declared.
Are you one of those people who claim the Nazis were socialists as well?
Some of these posts are like reading Animal Farm without the animals.
In what way are "some of these posts" like reading Animal Farm?
This thread is about the desirability of allowing someone who proudly flaunts their custom-made belt buckle with a Nazi SS insignia into your home to do some work.
It somehow got sidetracked into whether a communist party is left-wing, despite the self-evident fact that it clearly is - in respect to the accepted definition of the term.
How is this resembling a George Orwell novel? It's not obvious to me.
How is this resembling a George Orwell novel? It’s not obvious to me.
Well the DPRK certainly has more than a whiff of 1984 to it.
In discussing the failings of supposed left wing regimes due to the actions of the few/elite being contradictory to the founding principles of left wing ideology.
They aren’t really left or right. Moustache and/or bad haircut regimes is what they are.
The thread has gone rather off track hasn’t it?
Back to the OP
Well the DPRK certainly has more than a whiff of 1984 to it.
Well maybe it does. However the allegation was "Some of these posts are like reading Animal Farm without the animals".
I am left wondering whose posts have been sounding like Animal Farm without the animals.
It somehow got sidetracked into whether a communist party is left-wing, despite the self-evident fact that it clearly is – in respect to the accepted definition of the term.
Probably needs a different thread but I’d disagree with this. Most communist states have had the power in the hands of the few not the many. That literally goes against the dictionary definition of the word. Communism the ideal versus in practice are miles apart due to the commonly known moustache/haircut principle.
However the allegation was “Some of these posts are like reading Animal Farm without the animals”.
Allegation? It was the start of a post that ended with blaming moustaches for dictatorships. Go make a cup of tea or something ffs
That literally goes against the dictionary definition of the word.
No it doesn't go against the dictionary definition of "left-wing".
It is not about whether you approve or not of a regime that defines if it is left-wing,
It was the start of a post that ended with blaming moustaches
That made it seem like reading Animal Farm?
Yeah you could probably do with a cup of tea. Might help to calm down a tad.
I didn’t say left wing I said communist. Go Google communist ideology versus actuality and behold pages of results defining differences and why it doesn’t work because of the human element. I’ll go make a brew whilst I wait for the obvious to dawn on you.
You know what, I can’t be arsed. I made a light hearted post that at least two other people clearly understood yet it’s become an allegation because you’ve decided it is.
Think I need a break from this place. The seriousness and need to find an argument where there isn’t one is boring.
I didn’t say left wing I said communist
Yeah you decided to discuss whether communism 'works' or not, which was even further away from the thread topic.
The claim was made that the CPSU was not left-wing, that is clearly nonsense.
How's the cup of tea?
The debate was already in place before I entered the thread. I was making a light hearted jibe at ****ing moustaches and why communism doesn’t work in principle due to the few (pigs, people, moustaches, whatever) royally ****ing it up for the many.
The claim was made that the CPSU was not left-wing, that is clearly nonsense.
I’ve not even mentioned the CPSU, that was someone else. Tea is nice thanks. Have you made one, possibly with sedatives added?
Yeah you decided to discuss whether communism ‘works’ or not, which was even further away from the thread topic.
I outlined why it doesn’t work. Threads always go off topic here. It’s like a feature. Have we been visiting a different forum?
How’s the cup of tea? That’s me done, bye!
I was making a light hearted jibe at **** moustaches
Ah, the pigs had moustaches, I didn't know that! I have never read anything by George Orwell.
Goats had beards, so that rules them out.
We are safe with goats.
Are you one of those people who claim the Nazis were socialists as well?
No, as you can see above, I'm one of those people that says Nazis are fascists, which is a right wing ideological position.
@funkmasterp and @scaredypants are the people suggesting that the North Korean regime is not left wing, because something something No True Socialist.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NoTrueScotsman
I'm claiming that as well, we've all explained our working.
Now, can you explain why they are socialist/ left wing?
Fascist regimes can vary significantly in characteristics but the one characteristic which they all tend to share is the elevated role of the military.
In fascist Italy, Germany, Japan, and Spain, civilians could, and were, court-martialed.
So in that respect at least North Korea shares a strong characteristic with fascist regimes. However I think it is too difficult to categorize NK into any specific ideology. Officially NK claims that its ideology is "Juche" as defined by Kim Il-Sung, aka the Great Leader.
However the North Korean people are told that a double rainbow and a glowing new star appeared in the heavens above a mountain range to herald the birth of Kim Jong Il, son of the Great Leader and aka the Dear Leader.
Kim Jong-il's birth was in fact an act of divine providence. There aren't many political ideologies which make that sort of claim. I think a caliphate might be the closest you get to that. And the terms left-wing and right-wing don't usually apply to them.
So just to sum up...
"Communist countries" are left wing because the say they are despite the fact that they clearly do not operate with left wing ideologies.
But the national socialists are right wing because despite the name they do not operate with left wing tendencies.
That's some special logic right there.
they clearly do not operate with left wing ideologies.
You mean small detail like state control of the economy and no private ownership?
It is a special kind of logic which claims that communism isn't left-wing.
I am left wondering whether in this strange world of logic someone like Tony Blair is left-wing. Can in fact the term left-wing be narrowly defined as "anyone I agree with"?
And would it be fair for a Tory embarrassed by the label right-wing given to the Nazis claim that they were obviously left-wing?
The ideal of communism is very much a left wing utopia. The reality is not. Communism works in theory, as a philosophy, but not in real life. It has been attempted and failed miserably every time. It ends with an elite, despotic group clinging to power in most instances. They might call themselves Communists but they’ve simply cherry picked the bits of the philosophy that they want and ignored the rest. I honestly don’t think it could ever work. It’s an old philosophy and times have changed.
You come across as an extremely clever individual on here Ernie, and I genuinely look forward to reading your posts, so I’m genuinely befuddled by the fact you’re not grasping this. Takes about a minute of searching to find a plethora of papers and discussions about this very thing.
Communism works in theory, as a philosophy, but not in real life.
Whether that is true or not is totally irrelevant to whether it is left-wing or not.
Can you really not grasp the fact that the term left-wing doesn't only apply to what you personally approve of?
It’s not something I approve or not. I’m not talking about the term left wing. I’m talking about the reality of communism not being left wing. It clearly isn’t. It’s an extreme in 99% of cases, some form of dictatorship in most.
Like an extremist in religious terms it has some of the same foundations but has been warped to the point where it’s barely recognisable as the original thing. The first definition I find of left wing is this.
the section of a political party or system that advocates greater social and economic equality, and typically favours socially liberal ideas; the socialist or progressive group or section.
Does that sound like China, Russia, North Korea?
We’re never going to agree and I genuinely don’t like arguing. I’ll continue to read the thread but not take part. Apologies if I’ve angered or offended anyone. Clearly just different views and clashing a bit. It never ends well 😕
Apologies if I’ve angered or offended anyone. Clearly just different views and clashing a bit. It never ends well 😕
Why on earth would you have angered or offended anyone? Nothing that you have said sounds offensive to me.
IMO it's a bit weird to claim that Mao's China, for example, wasn't left-wing, it clearly was, far-left in fact, but I can't see how that would make anyone angry or feel offended.
So just to sum up…
“Communist countries” are left wing because the say they are despite the fact that they clearly do not operate with left wing ideologies.
But the national socialists are right wing because despite the name they do not operate with left wing tendencies.
That’s some special logic right there
Have you considered applying a Marxian analysis and looking at who owns the means of production in Nazi Germany and Juche North Korea? It would probably clear up your confusion.
Deleted..... due to confused understanding of the point being made!