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Nordic countries are much more equal and happier as a result
They're also much richer due to massive oil and mineral wealth. It's easier to be generous when there's loads of free cash floating around.
Can't be arsed reading the whole thread, but, yes, as a country, the UK is quite wealthy.
Another way of thinking about it is to look at the absolute purchasing power of people at (for example) the 20th percentile. Can they afford enough basic necessities to survive (shelter, food, clothes, etc.)? There may be high inequality in many rich countries, but the poor people are still better off than poor people in really poor countries.
A few things from the above thread.
- the Nordic (= Norway) used their oil and gas windfall wisely. Stashed lots in a Sovereign Fund. Britain meanwhile piished it away and gave most benefits to a few people
- we're on a forum where the average new bike is £6-8k. Eight grand on a push bike. Some are definitely not poor here.
- coffee shops.been around for centuries as social places. Ask Mrs Miggins.
we’re on a forum where the average new bike is £6-8k.
Which forum is this exactly?
we’re on a forum where the average new bike is £6-8k.
There was a poll. It’s <3k, but let’s not let facts get in the way of a rant eh?
Not all the nordic countries have huge oil and mineral wealth. what they do have in common is progressive taxation so their richest folk are not as rich and their poorest folk are not as poor. IE the cake is shared more equally and this leads to a happier population
It leads to a fairer (assumed better) society but saying they are happier is a difficult one as all depends what the measure is. They don't appear any happier from what I can tell, the country is still full of humans and humans are generally arses no matter what country they live in, grass is greener etc,.
Ok, top end iPhones are expensive, but can you actually tell one from a 4 year old mid-range one by sight? I’m not sure I could, they all look like black rectangles now
TBH I'm pretty sure the people who go on about the 'phones' couldn't.
I was working out how long i'd had my iPhone originally got on 2 year contract then onto sim only and its probably coming up to 5 years, so probably a few hundred pounds a year or a few nights out in real terms.
Kerley - there has been research done on this IIRC. More equal countries have happier populations generally
I struggle to reconcile what we see every day to what the numbers tell us.
2021 article of debt vs gdp put us at 9th most in debt country at debt being 107% of gdp, aka slightly worse than Argentina!
And yet, the general standard of living is pretty good here. So are we the household putting it all on credit but we can afford it, or are we the household that looks OK in the surface but are one step off maxing our credit card and it all coming tumbling down?
The UKs issue is that its a rich country but very unequal. so the money is in the country but a few people hoard much of it. so we have poverty for individuals while living in a rich country
On top of that all the main course start at more than £9. FFS! That’s why I refuse to go to anyone of them. I rather get fish and chips or curry buffet.
Fish & Chips takeaway is more than £9.
This thread is an interesting read as it gives an insight into how people gauge the nation's wealth. It doesn't seem to be based on the income or corporation tax take our government makes instead it mostly seems to be based on individual's conspicuous displays of wealth.
Phones, cars, houses, Netflix subs, clothes, etc... All potential indicators I suppose of a single person or a families attained wealth, but it necessarily, doesn't actually tell you if they have a million pounds or a tenner in the bank though...
It also ignores those with far less outward wealth on display, are they skint or just curious savers?
I would rather gauge the nation's wealth on what we take in terms of tax and what we spend on public services for the wider good, surely that's a better indication? As we head into the new austerity...
Well I guess people feel whether we are a rich country, or not based on their standard of living and poverty or wealth, health care and education they see around them, rather than economic statistics which don't really mean a lot to most.
You also need to factor in purchasing power, climate and the presence or absence of a welfare state. Finland has the best education system in the world and no private schools. In the US 500k people a year go bankrupt over medical bills and older couples often divorce to avoid inheriting medical debt.
Pay, we are told, has 'stagnated' for many in this country but in real terms has been cut by inflation. Privatisation of eg opticians, dentistry and health reduces many people's living standards (but is profitable for the few).
Inequality degrades countries and people, poverty is ugly.
Kerley – there has been research done on this IIRC. More equal countries have happier populations generally
I think that's fairly established, but what isn't is whether the happiness causes even-ness (if a country is more culturally happy, they are willing to give more away) vs the even-ness causing happiness.
’21 Lessons for the 21st Century’ by Yuval Noah Harari. Sapiens and Home deus by him were really good too.
Define "Really good". Most of what he says is utter balls from an actual science perspective, especially in Homo Deus when he starts on with the "Hacking Humans" horseshit that the likes of Harari and Cummings go in for I mean he writes well, I'll give you that but like that other "load of old nonsense" Germs Guns and Steel, it's mostly (almost entirely in fact) bollocks [a technical term]
– coffee shops.been around for centuries as social places. Ask Mrs Miggins.
Except Mrs Miggins had one coffee shop and there are now 10,000s...
The market for coffee shops etc has exploded in the last 20 years. The availability of places for our cafe rides to stop out has massively expanded within my lifetime, 20 years ago there were only a few places available, now we have a massive choice.
As arguments go, "people can't be poor, there are coffee shops" is certainly an interesting one.
Nordic countries are much more equal and happier as a result
Yeah they are sort of, but the days of Nordic countries being Social Democratic are long gone, pretty much all of them have (or have had) centre right leadership , but along with the left (ish) wing economic policies are the pretty conservative social policies, a history of low immigration, and high welfare payments, but there's no minimum wage legislation (for instance) and they have the same Boomer burden that the rest of Europe has (and in fact being made worse by expectations of their citizens). It also means that (like Sweden recently) the far right have used rising rates of immigration and fear of Russia to promote some pretty nasty policies.
And much of their happiness is due to low corruption, high trust in government, and high levels of personal freedoms, alongside more equal wages.
So per capita GDP, the Lorenz curve and the Gini coefficient is to be replaced by the number of coffee shops?
I struggle to reconcile what we see every day to what the numbers tell us.
2021 article of debt vs gdp put us at 9th most in debt country at debt being 107% of gdp, aka slightly worse than Argentina!
A countries national debt doesn't really tell you anything about the standard of living. It's also important to distinguish the currency in which the debt was issued as that makes a massive difference. UK national debt is £ denominated, whereas developing countries mainly have debt in $, which is much more problematic as have no control over it.
As arguments go, “people can’t be poor, there are coffee shops” is certainly an interesting one.
Personally, I don't think there is any correlation between the two...
They’re also much richer due to massive oil and mineral wealth. It’s easier to be generous when there’s loads of free cash floating around.
@5lab you've unwittingly hit on the fundamental issue there
Norway & UK have, since the 70s, extracted the same amount of oil
Now obvs there's big population difference between Norway & UK - >UK has >10x more people
But because Norways very left wing government of the day set up a state oil Co that owns (&invests in) half of all the oil from every well, via Statoil the Norwegian national producer
They have taken a lot more in revenue as a producer as well as tax,
Meanwhile thatcher privatised the British National Oil Corporation that Wilson had set up, with the same 50% stake..
So Norwegian state got a lot more money for the same amount of oil
And then of course Norway took their oil wealth and invested it in a sovereign wealth fund
You can actually see what assets they bought with it, you'd be surprised that they invested quite heavily in the UK, lots of amazon warehouses here etc
http://www.nbim.no/en/the-fund/investments/#/
That has multiplied the wealth many times over the initial amount - well over $1 trillion now!
Because ironically our wealth ended up being pumped into our housing, which raised prices for UK citizens & made many hone owners seem very wealthy on paper but prices millions out of property market.
The uk oil profits allowed the thatcher government to slash taxes & reform the economy, house prices have exploded but if you take that oil money out of the UK then our growth has been flat since the 80s
The market for coffee shops etc has exploded in the last 20 years.
I wonder what the curve for pub closures looks like over the same time frame? I'd be willing to bet money the number of coffee shops that have sprung up almost mirrors the decline in pubs.
The market for coffee shops etc has exploded in the last 20 years. The availability of places for our cafe rides to stop out has massively expanded within my lifetime, 20 years ago there were only a few places available, now we have a massive choice.
Interestingly the 'independent' sector has pretty much stood still.
IME it's pretty difficult, without knowing someone very well, to actually know their financial position.
Shit pay, no pension, hire and fire, crap coffee.
Finland didn't get much oil and yet...
https://worldhappiness.report/ed/2022/happiness-benevolence-and-trust-during-covid-19-and-beyond/
(Link to a happiness index chapter in an academically respectable report, Finland's at the top, UK is still in the top 20 countries internationally for happiness. Anyway, it's not clear that oil buys you happiness.)
Interesting to see Japan down at 54, being a relatively equal, socially cohesive and well ordered society, and still a wealthy country compared to some of those above. A few decades of zero economic growth maybe killing optimism?
Some numbers here then, 22,500 pubs lost. People still want to meet and have a natter, but perhaps would rather not do it over a pint anymore? Most drinking done in homes now isn't it?
The market for coffee shops etc has exploded in the last 20 years.
I wonder what the curve for pub closures looks like over the same time frame? I’d be willing to bet money the number of coffee shops that have sprung up almost mirrors the decline in pubs.
Isn't that what CPI measures? i.e. "Coffee Shop to Pub Index"
I note we've gotten into Charts and Norwegian comparisons. If that's the way we're going is there any Data for the STW-Stato's to look at the concentration of privately held wealth broken down by demographics, as well as per-capita public services spend, for the UK Vs whatever countries we think we should be compared to? (needs looking at over time too, say the last ~50 odd years). Might as well throw housing costs relative to income in there too.
Iran has a miniscule national debt.
One of the other things about coffee shops is that they are somewhere to meet friends etc - as more people live in shared houses and smaller flats, the option to meet somewhere that is warm, with space to work and chat etc is an option that many take. This mirrors the place of pubs a few decades ago - somewhere to get out ofthe house, see friends etc.
Coffee shops were quick to jump on the work market as well - buy a fairly cheap drink, sign into the free wifi and plug in your laptop to the free power and work for several hours with no issues. Pubs have been quite slow to adopt the same model, perhaps because they tended to be open in evening rather than the day when most people want to work.
Where pubs have adapted it is in a different way - large screen sports, quizzes, meals etc. As society changes the social spaces we inhabit will change too.
Define “Really good”. Most of what he says is utter balls from an actual science perspective, especially in Homo Deus.
Wow! Good job we all like different stuff eh!? “Really good” as in entertaining and thought provoking, for me at least. Clearly YMMV. My science knowledge is nowhere near the level where I can pick holes it, I genuinely doff my cap if yours is! I recognise a lot of it as 'popular science' though and I know 'proper' scientists tend to look down on that. There is a place IMO for people trying to explain complex issues in a way us mere mortals at least have a chance of understanding.
It wasn't so much the technology and science stuff I enjoyed though, as the interesting takes on anthropology, human behavior, war, civilization, empires etc. I particularly enjoyed Sapiens and 21 lessons. Homo Deus whilst still enjoyable, was my least favourite. Predicting the future is a tough gig and science writers almost never get it right (still waiting for the hover boots I was promised as a kid)!
Might as well throw housing costs relative to income in there too.
Knock yourself out....
https://www.oecd.org/housing/data/affordable-housing-database/
They’re also much richer due to massive oil and mineral wealth.
Norway does, not the rest. I think they have had more equality their entire histories. William the Conqueror has a lot to answer for.
and I know ‘proper’ scientists get very prickly about that. There is a place though for people trying to explain complex issues in a way us mere mortals at least have a chance of understanding.
Because lots of what Harari writes is just flat out nonsense, that's why, if you want to read about evolution or genetics then there are loads of books written by actual scientists that are recognised in their field. Adam Rutherford's A Brief History of Everyone who ever Lived and Rebecca Wragg-Sykes' Kindred together make a replacement for Sapiens - which pretty much misses the point of evolution (of Homo Sapiens) in the first chapter and doesn't really recover. His assertion that evolution bends towards progress is just crackpot stuff really.
The thing is, it's not a badly researched book, it's just that his assertions aren't supportable. Do a search on the book for criticisms, and you'll see what actual academics think about it.
Robert Putnam ('Bowling Alone') argued that the health benefits of being involved in social groups equated with the benefits of giving up smoking. Isolation resulting from poverty (and pub closures/unaffordability etc) damages people.
Do a search on the book for criticisms, and you’ll see what actual academics think about it.
Fair enough, but in all honesty I probably won't. I know it's trite but true nonetheless, 'life is too short'. I simply made a throwaway comment about some books I enjoyed a few years ago. I've moved on, it wasn't a specialist area of interest. I've read a lot more books on a wide range of subjects which have taken my interest since. I'm not an academic and don't have the time or inclination to take a deep dive into any of them. I'm fairly sure a quick Google would find people taking issue with all of them. However, if I ever find myself wanting to reread Harari, I will take your advice 👍
William the Conqueror has a lot to answer for.
He was descended from Vikings too which probably helps explain why our GINI wealth co-efficient is lower (i.e we are more equal) than all the Nordic countries bar Finland.
Sapiens and Home deus by him were really good too.
I started Sapiens but didn't finish it.
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SI.POV.GINI
Uk has a much higher Gini than all the Nordic countries
Agree about Sapiens, wanted to like it but the science was terrible
Uk has a much higher Gini than all the Nordic countries
Higher income, lower wealth and we are discussing wealth
Fish & Chips takeaway is more than £9.
But Fish & Chips or curry is done properly because they are the "specialty" in this part of the world. Therefore, paying slightly more in the current economy climate is not an issue if I don't eat them often. Also I don't mind paying slightly more if they taste good but not when they pretend to be good especially for food from my part of the world. Even the Chinese restaurants (HK predominantly) have certain standards.
As for coffee I must say not all are drinkable especially Costa and even Greggs cheapo coffee is better. The coffee chains are only good for social meet, so being there is merely paying for the place to meet.
Yep, Mefty overlooked that. However by including housing as capital a country like the UK would appear to be more equal than where people are more likely to rent. I would argue that the house you live in is a long-term consumer durable, it is not a capital asset as with a landlord. Things are further complicated by offshoring wealth, something for which the UK is indeed world class.
Depends on how wide your social circle and experiences are I'd say. Friends just been on a £40000 six week holiday and that's normal routine. Today I'm working on a house with a garden full of dog shit in a depressing council estate where there is no money floating about so yes and no is my answer.
America is a 'rich' country
However, I was astounded by the poverty and shacks that I saw people living in when I visited Florida, which apparently are commonplace throughout America. Literally whole neighbourhoods that are established where people live wooden or metal shacks.
Doesn't every country have extreme examples between the wealthiest and the poorest? The separator is the balance between it or even where the average person is and then where that average person is relative to an average person in another country.
America is a ‘rich’ country
America is a ‘rich’ country full of poor people..., same as the UK.
America is not the same as the UK, there are a lot of people in America without access to basic health care, accommodation or opportunities. For all our complaining that is not the case in the UK, there are people who live in poor conditions but there aren't many living in shacks and despite the current mess the NHS is in people can access basic health care. People are also not as limited in their opportunities by race or background as they are in the states.
The UK has some poor people but most people have a reasonable standard of living compared to much of the world.
America is not the same as the UK, there are a lot of people in America without access to basic health care, accommodation or opportunities.
The USA is 50 third world countries sat on each others shoulders, wearing a trench coat. 😉
America is a ‘rich’ country full of poor people…, same as the UK.
https://www.mtbr.com/threads/surprised-by-so-many-being-priced-out-of-mtb.1210109/page-41
Amusing few comments on this thread, regarding the finaincial state of the US, and then one commenter suggests that Britain is worse, which many of the other Yanks agree with. Thats after they have been discussing 10% inflation, rents doubling, the grand total of $2800 free covid money they have received and other financial pressures they face in the US.
They clearly arent getting the full story, but I can only assume we aren't either.
Doesn’t every country have extreme examples between the wealthiest and the poorest?
Some do, some don't.
The problem comes when you have thousands of examples to choose from, thousands of people on (or below) the poverty line and thousands with more money than they know what to do with.
Rich old people and poor young people.
Note that while the article talks about the increasing importance of inheritance as a means of escaping poverty, in reality inheritance only really recycles significant amounts of money among rich old people (ie, people who receive significant bequests are almost all rich and old already). Virtually no young poor people ever inherit anything anyway.
Those in work in America, in equivalent professional roles to the UK, earn considerably more for doing so - often 30/40/50% more. Yes, you arrange health insurance, but beyond a certain level it's not a huge issue. Yet if you're broke the system will destroy you if you fall ill. It's been like that for a long time. Lived there as a kid, yanks often view the Uk as a quaint anachronistic tourist attraction, like visiting a theme park themed 50 years in the past, and they think it so weird that we live in tiny hobbit like houses. In many ways they're not wrong. Outside of poverty the average comfortable US middle class has considerably more spending power than the UK, and boy do they know how to spend it.
UK can be a strange place. We went to Farm Foods the other day which, if you don't know, is a proper bargain basement supermarket; in Pentwyn in Cardiff which is similarly a pretty low-end suburb. There were several Audis and BMWs in the car park. Ok so they weren't new, but it's still a bit of a paradox.
Outside of poverty the average comfortable US middle class has considerably more spending power than the UK
This is a bit of a complex area not least because the term 'middle class' has a completely different meaning in the US. It apples only to income, and it means the gap between actually poor and actually rich, which is quite big.
In the very typical mid-west small town in which I have spent quite a bit of time, there are lots of people with snowmobiles or quad bikes in their garages, and lots of people have cabins to go to, hot tubs and similar expensive items. But this is just displaced spending in a lot of cases. Most people never travel anywhere, they don't take a family holiday at all, and during the summer they are driving out to a lake for a day a few times. They also aren't spending as much on cars, as far as I can tell, and a fraction of the cost on housing which is very cheap indeed.
Yes, you arrange health insurance, but beyond a certain level it’s not a huge issue
I wouldn't say that. Health insurance is very expensive. You might get it as part of your professional job, but it only goes so far and you still have to pay out a lot even if you're covered. Your $500/mo insurance only gets you say $100k of cover, which in US hospitals does not go far at all. And it doesn't cover having kids either, so if you get pregnant you're down $10k even if nothing goes wrong.
Rich old people and poor young people.
Again, generalisations - we have plenty of pensioners living in poverty.
Poor young people tends to come with being young and not having built up any wealth, be that cash, property, possessions. Our inheritance system though is a mess, and it's driving more wealth into the hands of fewer people. Renting means people pay landlords through out their life concentrating the wealth. We should be actively making home ownership easier and more affordable but instead the government seems to be hell bent on increasing the costs which lock even more people out of being able to hold onto some of their wealth.
The USA is 50 third world countries sat on each others shoulders, wearing a trench coat.
that’s a great description of America. It’s the most third world first world country.