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I know we are supposed to be something like the 6th richest economy in the world. But I was listening to a podcast the other week (New Statesman I think) and they were reporting on somebody who claimed that the UK was actually a relatively poor country by comparison with a lot of our neighbours, just with a few very rich people. Something about the "average" UK family being worse off than the average family in lots of other countries. But they didn't actually provide any links to data for this, so maybe it is just hogwash.
Depends how you define 'a rich country' doesn't it?
Yes, I guess that's my point 🙂
We keep being told we are the 6th richest country in the world so presumably we are by some measure. GDP I guess. But is that a useful measure? How does the average UK family compare with the average in other countries? Is that a more useful measure of how wealthy we are?
I guess I was hoping that somebody might be able to point me to the data that produced the claim I mentioned. I thought it was an interesting concept, but would like more than an unsubstantiated comment on a podcast to go on.
Probably impossible to get a real answer from anywhere.
e.g, if you wanted to find a country where a modest working or middle class job for 35 hours a week can feed and house a family and live comfortably on one income... I wouldn't be looking at northern europe or north america
The place to start is looking at GDP in PPP terms (purchasing power parity), which adjusts countries' wealth to account for the differences in living costs
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.KD?view=map
Inequality is the other thing to bear in mind as you say. The UK is not that much higher than most European countries on this:
rich, dont know.
expendable income, deffo.
i would hazard a bet that the majority of households in the uk have,
a. a good phone and contract
b. sky tv or some other non terrestrial set up
c. eat takeaway food more than freshly cooked food most days
as a bit of proof of my thoughts, i went for a walk on bonfire night.
on the largest council estate in leeds. i would love to know how much money went up in smoke with fireworks.
Yes but its also very unequal and more unequal than most.
When I was in Ireland which is a less rich country I saw less dead high streets and less poverty ( tho I did not go into the big cities. Perhaps they are less unequal
Inequality in the UK has been rising for decades due to deliberate tory policy
So the UK is a rich country but with a lot of poverty due to the inequality with which those riches are dispersed
Thanks @Klunk I'm sure that's where the information I heard came from as it's basically the same headline.
The UK is a rich country, full of poor people.
e.g, if you wanted to find a country where a modest working or middle class job for 35 hours a week can feed and house a family and live comfortably on one income… I wouldn’t be looking at northern europe or north america
Where would you look then?
Dunno, but I guess we're about to be cajoled into giving billions to developing countries. Because climate change
Here is a fun quote from that FT article:
" In 2007, the average UK household was 8 per cent worse off than its peers in north-western Europe, but the deficit has since ballooned to a record 20 per cent. On present trends, the average Slovenian household will be better off than its British counterpart by 2024, and the average Polish family will move ahead before the end of the decade. A country in desperate need of migrant labour may soon have to ask new arrivals to take a pay cut."
We have a rich ruling class, rich politicians(+ getting richer year on year) and their rich donators/supporters. But the average pleb is still looking to live in a frugal manner.
Remember, the £800 billion the country pulls in each year isnt distributed fairly, but every penny comes from the public. So in reality there is plenty of funds for the NHS, the poor, the most vulnerable in society and the rest combined, only they cant do that because they gift their own a large portion of it.
Rich in what? Walk down any street in London and think of the supposed value tied up in those assets surrounding you within a relatively small radius, then multiply across the whole city/ country. Its mind boggling. Next time you're on the motorway think of the value invested in the vehicles that share that road space... in the meantime, what percentage of kids aren't even being fed properly? Someone will be along in a minute to tell you that's fine, that's who we are. It's not. It's nuts. The things we are rich in don't seem to be helping most people all that much.
the majority of households in the uk... eat takeaway food more than freshly cooked food most days
I doubt that.
@legometeorology if I'm reading that map correctly the UK is poorer than Ireland 😮
Country is rich but people are poor (most).
What's the average disposable income and savings?
the majority of households in the uk… eat takeaway food more than freshly cooked food most days
I doubt that.
judging by the growth in food delivery services around the country, like i said, i would chance a bet on it.
Irelands economy has been performing very well recently, much better than the Uk. Anyone care to hazard a wild guess as to why?
The 1,000 BHP supercharged economic engine that is London massively skews the numbers.
They found a four leaf clover? or a pot of gold?
Dunno, but I guess we’re about to be cajoled into giving billions to developing countries. Because climate change
Would you rather we did **** all and wait a few years till the climate is not conducive to sustainable life in such countries?, how d’ya fancy dealing with hundreds of millions of people moving just to survive?, you’ll need more than your little edc prepper toolkit to save your way of existence if that happens
They harvest green Unicorns, have seen fields full of them.
I guess we’re about to be cajoled into giving billions to developing countries. Because climate change
Well if we don't, we'll be very poor within the next two generations. If not directly from climate change, then from the droughts and famines and resulting wars and displaced populations with an axe to grind.
Yes is the short answer and no is the long answer.
Its complex but the gap between young working class, poorly educated and middle aged well educated is absolutely huge.
Education and opportunity is woeful for many kids.
We have virtually no social responsibility, i doubt we ever did.
I’ll believe the UK is poor/in a recession/struggling with the cost of living when I see even slightly fewer coffee shops/cafes. They’re everywhere and still more open. Even mobile ones in the park now. Is it that lucrative? What’s so amazing about buying coffee?
Even mobile ones in the park now. Is it that lucrative? What’s so amazing about buying coffee?
People are trying to earn a living to provide for themselves rather than relying on handouts.
Do you notice in Asia/Far East street stalls are everywhere? Why make it so hard for people who are willing to work for a living?
I’ll believe the UK is poor/in a recession/struggling with the cost of living when I see even slightly fewer coffee shops/cafes.
Here comes the lazy.... "if you can buy a coffee, what are you complaining about" right wing old codger winger shit.
See also...
Avocado on toast.
Flat screen TVs.
Mobile phones.
Anything that wasn't mainstream "when I were a lad".
We keep being told we are the 6th richest country in the world so presumably we are by some measure. GDP I guess. But is that a useful measure?
Yes, if you either import NOTHING or have a positive balance of trade (something the UK hasn't had for 2 decades)
I read in a book (so it must be true) that the Queen (so I expect stands for the King) could give everyone over the age of 18 in the UK £1million and still be in the Forbes Rich list
I read in a book (so it must be true) that the Queen (so I expect stands for the King) could give everyone over the age of 18 in the UK £1million and still be in the Forbes Rich list
For billionaire what is £68 millions?
How many billionaires do we have in the UK? I mean their penny is the size of bullock cart wheel.
Try asking any of the billionaires to give you £1k and see what happen.
I read in a book (so it must be true) that the Queen (so I expect stands for the King) could give everyone over the age of 18 in the UK £1million and still be in the Forbes Rich list
Chewkw:
For billionaire what is £68 millions?
That’d be the cost of giving everyone £1 each. Not a million each.
Not even many billionaires can payout £68 thousand billion.
Hard to say if the Crown has £68 trillion - depends on land values I guess, but you’d have to sell it all, which might affect prices a little.
Not saying it’s a bad plan, btw, just pointing out the maths.
Edit: seems the royal family is short by a factor of about 2000. Land included!!
Discard the top and bottom 5% of the population, average that and apply the PPP (purchasing power parity) and then compare. This gets rid of the worst extremes of skew and dramatically alters the UK position and gives a result more in tune with peoples 'feel'. I think it was on the Radio 4 statistics program (More or Less?) a few years back when the Tories were claiming how rich we all were but I can't find it on Google.
Not even many billionaires can payout £68 thousand billion.
Probably those are just on paper value but not cash rich and in which case they borrow to live and spend by paying minimum tax if any. (not referring to he crown but those so called millionaires and billionaires)
I learned all this from one of the world renowned investor.
You may be confusing largest (total GDP - US, China, Japan, Germany and then very close between UK and France IIRC with India catching up) with richest (per capita, where little places like Luxembourg and Singapore tend to come out on top, not much totalwealth but each of the smaller number of individualsis quite well off, China does quote badly on this measure but is a much bigger economy than us)
ton
rich, dont know.
expendable income, deffo.
i would hazard a bet that the majority of households in the uk have,
a. a good phone and contract
b. sky tv or some other non terrestrial set up
c. eat takeaway food more than freshly cooked food most daysas a bit of proof of my thoughts, i went for a walk on bonfire night.
on the largest council estate in leeds. i would love to know how much money went up in smoke with fireworks.
Tony I'm obviously an outlier here:
No income since May
SIM only on a 5 year old Samsung
Freeview TV
Over a year since I've had a takeaway
Never lit a firework in my life.
Yet I'm probably considered rich compared to much of the UK. I think the main problem is where the real bulk of the UK wealth resides. Compared to them I'm a pauper.
Oh and as for the Coffee shop thing. I've never been in one never mind bought a coffee from them. I'm told our local independant one is really good but I seem to have absorbed my mothers Yorkshire ways with not paying for something I can make myself!
Golly, there are some touchy coffee-wallers on the forum 😆
Nobody’s bemoaning one’s right to buy coffee, or the right to trade and earn a crust. When it comes to free-enterprise I’m true-blue Thatcherite. Sell drugs, sell your body, sell your children! I don’t care.
My point was that I’m surprised there is so much money sloshing around that everyone seems to be falling over themselves to open coffee shops, in an area chock full of coffee shops. Often developing all kinds of buildings at considerable expense from their various previous uses into… coffee shops. Employing staff that must live somewhere so will be earning enough money from coffee to pay their massive rents/mortgages etc etc…
Just trying to work it out, and whether I should start selling coffee from the back of my car.
Slight distraction ... I am trying to figure this out after the world renowned investor spoke about it.
Let's say on paper you are a billionaire or run a company with that value. Therefore, on paper you are rich. But you pay yourself average salary and pay the tax for that.
Then you borrow millions to spend on luxury lifestyle and pay the interest rate for the borrowing in time accordingly. Surely the interest rate will be lower than paying income tax? Yes? Accountant in the house?
Golly, there are some touchy coffee-wallers on the forum 😆
LOL! I just want to see more affordable street food rather paying for sky rocket average taste food. I mean look at the street food in Asia/Far East. I mean some of them have Michelle stars I kid you not!
What cheese me off is recently I went to restaurant here that sell food from my region. I mean we ordered many dishes and I was thinking that at least the standard should be good. FFS! 4/10 is my rating for all the dishes and guess what the restaurant is busy all the time. FFS! Street food in Asia/Far East can easily beat them hand down. On top of that all the main course start at more than £9. FFS! That's why I refuse to go to anyone of them. I rather get fish and chips or curry buffet.
Saw some stats a while back that used something closer to the Human Development Index, or namely what chance the inhabitant has of getting on in life using various broad quality of life metrics. Surprisingly (or not) most of the top ten worst performing regions of Europe resided in the UK. Only our best performing areas of the Capital and limited areas of the South East were on par with the European average. While in contrast and importantly, both the cities and the rural regions of France manage to meet those averages. We do not look so healthy or wealthy in comparison, it would be good if the Little Englandshire exceptional flag shaggers acknowledged those facts.
I know we are supposed to be something like the 6th richest economy in the world.
Prior to the Brexit referendum, we were 4th... Then we were 5th for a while before we left the EU, and now we are 6th...
But I was listening to a podcast the other week (New Statesman I think) and they were reporting on somebody who claimed that the UK was actually a relatively poor country by comparison with a lot of our neighbours, just with a few very rich people. Something about the “average” UK family being worse off than the average family in lots of other countries.
Why do you think the right wing wanted Brexit so much, and the Tories have run away with it and made it as tough on the average person as they can...? It is their raison d'etre to perpetuate the rich/poor divide! The entire world has felt the economic fallout of COVID and to some extent, the war in Ukraine... No other country has felt the fallout of Brexit!
Irelands economy has been performing very well recently, much better than the Uk. Anyone care to hazard a wild guess as to why?
It's on the tip of my tongue... 🤔
Here comes the lazy…. “if you can buy a coffee, what are you complaining about” right wing old codger winger shit.
It's the same old shit that keeps the Tories in power... Doubtless the same was said half a century about people who had central heating and running water not knowing they were born... There's always some right wing c**t ready to whip up hatred based upon a perception of even poor people having things that he didn't have half a century ago...
The 1,000 BHP supercharged economic engine that is London massively skews the numbers.
It does, but it too has had its wings clipped somewhat in the last few years... Hence the last Tory mini-budget (that thankfully has been thrown in the sea!) to reduce the top tax bracket, uncap bankers bonuses etc. once again... Tories doing what Tories do best, taxing the poor to give to the rich! 🤦🏻
most of the top ten worst performing regions of Europe resided in the UK
When we were in the EU, we did have some of the most deprived areas in Europe, who benefited from millions in EU funding. Ironically, those areas were pro-leave in the referendum...
We had 9 out of 10 poorest regions in 2014, and had improved slightly to 6 out of 10 by 2016...
https://fullfact.org/economy/does-uk-have-poorest-regions-northern-europe/
People are buying coffee, but are they going out on the lash less and buying less beer?
People are buying coffee, but are they going out on the lash less and buying less beer?
When I used to go to my local CrossFit box (before it folded) all the young people went out for coffee as their main social thing. In my day we just went to the pub and got shit faced and ended up vomiting in the street...
I think they have a better plan.....
There are huge disparities and social inequality for sure. Huge numbers are struggling and definitely nowhere near 'rich' by western standards. It also feels like we are slipping backwards compared to other European countries.
It helps to keep some perspective though. I recall reading somewhere that if you have running water, a solid roof over your head (owned or rented) and a car, you are in the top 1% of the world's wealthiest. If you add free healthcare and education then it's significantly better than that.
I'm not belittling the huge issues many are facing, but there are lots of places in the world where it's far worse.
I've just come back from a month in Southern Spain. We saw more beggars there than we ever did in Goa.
When people stop buying the latest I phone & ditch paid media subscriptions then I'll believe we're a poor nation.
I’m not belittling the huge issues many are facing, but there are lots of places in the world where it’s far worse.
Although a lot of places where you find the really poor are quite warm countries - where freezing to death isn't on the cards....
This is a good read on the subject of how the global poor are getting less poor year on year...
had improved slightly to 6 out of 10 by 2016…
There's various ways to cook up the data, GDP per Capita is not a great one.
What’s your point Molgrips? People are becoming more boring?
You might be on to something actually. There used to be a pub on every street. So buying coffee away from home is a social event? Well you live and learn. They must be doing a roaring turnover of covers then. If one goes to the pub you generally have between three and nine drinks and stay a few hours to the whole night. These coffee shops are generally only open during the day. So millions of small-ticket, coffee and cake orders. 🤔
This is a good read on the subject of how the global poor are getting less poor year on year…
Looks like an interesting read, i will get a copy, thanks 👍
Looks like an interesting read, i will get a copy, thanks 👍
It is a brilliant book!
I was reading something somewhere as few weeks ago about income disparity. I can’t remember the exact numbers but in much of Europe the ratio between the richest X% and the median income was 3:1, in the UK it’s now 1:4 in the US its 1:6. The US may have tbe highest mean incomes but it also has huge wealth inequality. All I see is this government trying to push this country the same way.
It is a brilliant book!
Ordered! 🙂
I’ll believe the UK is poor/in a recession/struggling with the cost of living when I see even slightly fewer coffee shops/cafes.
there's significant lag between people buying less coffee and a cafe running out of money/shutting down. I'd estimate 6 months. So whilst its a reasonable indicator, its a lagging one (as much of the economy is) so its hard to use as an identifier of a problem
All I see is this government trying to push this country the same way.
This will always be the end product of our late stage capitalist dystopia. In the end the world will be burning but they'll still be those around that are pleased they managed to create good value for their shareholders.
Factfullness is a magnificent book! I wish everyone would read it, and think about it, and talk about it with their families and friends. And MPs.
It really does help you understand the world.
Factfullness is a magnificent book! I wish everyone would read it, and think about it, and talk about it with their families and friends. And MPs.
It really does help you understand the world.
A ringing endorsement. The last book I read that had that kind of profound impact on me was '21 Lessons for the 21st Century' by Yuval Noah Harari. Sapiens and Home deus by him were really good too. What I particularly liked about 21 Lessons and am hoping for from Factfulness, is a sprinkling of hope and optimism amongst the never ending hopelessness and doom mongering which surrounds us.
We went to Bath a couple months ago, and we're surprised at the disparity between the have's and have-nots, quite shocking to say the least.
In world terms, we're still rich and everyone has a decent standard of living.
The UK (for everybody) is still better than Ethiopia, Eritrea, Afghanistan etc. So it is not a poor country and every one has access to clean drinking water, shelter (of sorts), food (somehow), the basics.
However, nearly all the wealth is generated by financial services/property in London. Areas like Grimsby (for example) are really struggling.
A big wealth pyramid.
The 'middle income' countries arguably have it best eg. Eastern Europe, Peru, Russia
You might be on to something actually. There used to be a pub on every street
Hundreds of pubs close every year. Depending on which stats you believe, something like 25% - 35% of all pubs in the country have closed down since 2000. So an increase in the number of coffee places doesn't necessarily signal an increase in net spend on food & drink.
Nordic countries are much more equal and happier as a result. One of the weird things with inequality is even the richest folk are happier living in a more equal society
IMO the inequality in the UK which is high and getting higher is a driver for the anger and unhappiness that bedevils this country
The ‘middle income’ countries arguably have it best eg. Eastern Europe, Peru, Russia
There is massive inequality in the Russian Federation. Wealth is concentrated in Moscow and St Petersburg and a few other cities. Rural Russia further East, and many of the republics are dirt poor.
. At the same time, the news that a man refuses to use contraceptives although he has already produced eight living children will draw much more attention than the fact that the global total fertility rate (TFR) is declining.
Well not according to the Channel 4 news just now where global population will reach 8 billion next month. The question is who are in decline and who are increasing their production.
When people stop buying the latest I phone & ditch paid media subscriptions then I’ll believe we’re a poor nation.
This old chestnut. Very few people that I know of actually buy phones any more, they rent them. They’ve become something of a necessity in the western world now whether you like it or not. A few folk have them instead of a computer, laptop or tablet.
My Netflix subscription costs less than a TV license and I swap and change services depending on what is on that’s worth watching. Disney at the moment for Andor and The Walking Dead.
What you’re showing is classic backinmydayitis 😉
costa coffee is rubbish.
When people stop buying the latest I phone & ditch paid media subscriptions then I’ll believe we’re a poor nation.
are these people buying shares or building investment portfolios or are they blowing what little cash they have on a sugar hit?
conspicuous consumption masks a lot of poverty - see also BMWs on credit on the driveway.
Very few people that I know of actually buy phones any more, they rent them
This is the opposite of my experience. People have cottoned on that the networks rip you off and the best way to get a phone is sim-free and get a sim-only monthly deal with GiffGaff or your MVNO of choice.
Anyway, to the OPs's question, we are a rich country, but a declining one. We are losing ground compared to most EU countries, and as many have pointed out our wealth is very unevenly distributed.
costa coffee is rubbish.
I agree totally.
Agreed - go ask your mum or gran what they used to pay for their monthly phone bill, a tv and license, and convert that to modern rates. 30 quid on a phone* and 15 on Netflix won’t come anywhere near to what they paid and is infinitely a better service.
*im also of the buy a handset and get a sim only deal persuasion, but money up front when every other expense is monthly is difficult when you are poor.
When people stop buying the latest I phone & ditch paid media subscriptions then I’ll believe we’re a poor nation.
Based on the ‘how much booze do you get through’ thread, A new iphone is 2 months drinking budget to some.
As mentioned, a Netflix sub is less than a TV license.
Different strokes for different folks.
Very few people that I know of actually buy phones any more, they rent them
All three of us here have cheap android we bought and cheap giffgaff packages. Also a 12 year old car and rent our house. We're not rich, but definitely not poor with some cafe and takeaway treats from time to time.
The main problem with typical such analyses of 'wealth', is that they routinely tend to focus on figures alone, and ignore other factors. The UK is declining not only in terms of 'GDP', but also in terms of overall health, educational attainment, literacy, skills, stuff like that. Our NHS is crippled, our educational system is in steep decline, we're not training people to do much beyond what serves financial interests, and ignoring increasing numbers of people who need support.
Very few people that I know of actually buy phones any more, they rent them.
& who pays the rent, the rent fairy?
see also BMWs on credit on the driveway.
That’s where the credit fairy comes in.
I’ll believe the UK is poor/in a recession/struggling with the cost of living when I see even slightly fewer coffee shops/cafes. They’re everywhere and still more open. Even mobile ones in the park now. Is it that lucrative? What’s so amazing about buying coffee?
Most people in the circles I socialise (/work) - very much including myself - would much rather go to a cafe than a pub. It's just society modernising itself. No matter how tough the times, plenty of people still want to socialise and enjoy a really nice drink!
On pubs. round here with rampant gentrification none of the pubs have closed - but they have changed doing good coffee and food as well or really becoming restaurants with a bar. 25 pubs / bistros / gastropubs within 400m and a dozen cafes
Dunno but I think we were pretty good for having a family office at 🙁
I never really got into the coffee thing in the UK as I found it an expensive hobby and I'd rather spend it on bike bits.
In Spain its nice as its very reasonable in my bit, about 3 quid today for a coffee and coke on a beach front bar.
(but working here is hard)
This old chestnut. Very few people that I know of actually buy phones any more, they rent them. They’ve become something of a necessity in the western world now whether you like it or not. A few folk have them instead of a computer, laptop or tablet.
Yep I'd agree with this, we do use them for frivolous stuff but they are still powerful tools.
Probably been said earlier but from a person to person pov GDP is of little value it needs to be divided by capita, really working age capita for it to give comparison in the same way a house with two people and 100k pa income is vastly different to a house of 5 with 100k pa income . And to the op yes we are a lot poorer than most of our neighbors.
To be honest I am amazed anyone falls for the 6th richest country line. Show how poor most peoples numeracy is.
Agreed – go ask your mum or gran what they used to pay for their monthly phone bill, a tv and license, and convert that to modern rates
don’t need to go back that far! I re membered my old phone contract from 2000 - every day 50; 50p a day got you 50 messages & 50 minutes a day. And nothing else. So £15 a month.
I pay less now for 60GB, plus unlimited everything else, plus free calls & data in loads of other countries.
Seems like a steal when you think about it!
The place to start is looking at GDP in PPP terms (purchasing power parity), which adjusts countries’ wealth to account for the differences in living costs
Also look at GDP per capita.
I'm a bit depressed at the thought that because there are lots of coffee shops everything must be OK. There are lots of food banks too.
When people stop buying the latest I phone & ditch paid media subscriptions
Ok, top end iPhones are expensive, but can you actually tell one from a 4 year old mid-range one by sight? I'm not sure I could, they all look like black rectangles now. Given what you can do with a phone, it can be superb value for money. I bet there are plenty of people using their phone to replace the TV, land line, computer, camera and DVD player I used to have as a young person. And you could get all that for £200 on an Android phone.
And the paid media subs are actually an excellent budget option. Back in the day we'd spend a tenner at the cinema just to watch one film, then we went to the pub several nights a week. Now you can binge watch every night for £8.99 whilst drinking booze and eating snacks you bought from the supermarket. I reckon it represents some of the cheapest entertainment available, beyond that which is free.
Along similar lines, coffee is often a social event - almost no-one is alone in the one I go to sometimes during the day. A coffee might be as much as a (cheap) pint but most people are only drinking one!