You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
What is the appropriate karma for an uppity black these days? Same as it was in the seventies?
It's not about him being black..basically if someone of any colour snitches on a colleague of mine about something, without taking a reasonable amount of effort to resolve it without hr involvement I'd be thinking they were a bit of xxx, and probably not have much time for them thereafter.
Its not even close to constructive dismissal. Nowhere near. Not even in the same room
Tbf given the ops rather rash move of leaving then probably not. But we had a case whereby hr raised a grievance against an employee in face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, the employee won, employee then left as his position was untenable and won a case for constructive dismissal.
Admittedly it went through the whole process first. So you are probably correct..should have stuck around and fought the case the assessed options.
And yes..a union rep is your friend in these situations
Sorry to hear this OP. Rotten luck.
used a well known phrase to describe something, that’s it.
Well thanks to the glorious powers of the internet, the meaning of that phrase has now probably changed since a few days ago.
Only the actual racists out there ‘won’ today. They normally have a field day with this stuff.
He wasn’t a victim of racism though was he Edukator?
He felt he was a victim, he made a complaint as he is perfectly entitled to. Who am I to judge? Or you for that matter.
We have a few paragraphs to go on, the complainant has days, months or years of experience of the corporate culture of whichever FTSE company it is. The HR of that company too. They are far better placed to judge if a complaint should be taken seriously than us. With enough unreserved apologising and some union involvement the situation was maybe saveable; I'd have let it run, but then I'm quite happy eating humble pie.
Madame's union membership costs 120e a year.
That’s quite different from your last very judgemental post where you asserted that the complainant had been a victim of racism. OP innocent of any wrongdoing until proven otherwise.
Either way it’s immaterial now any way
Fine, let’s take race out of it. You still haven’t said what an appropriate level of karma would be.
Shunning? Workplace ‘accident’? ‘Random’ attack in the street? ‘Random’ attack on his family?
I’m curious what level of cosmic revenge you think would be appropriate.
I can see youre all emotional and looking for an argument with these wild ramblings so i'm going to refrain from engaging further as you sound a bit of an unhinged tit.
He felt he was a victim
So not the same as your original assertion that he *was* a victim of racism then. I am ready for my sincere and unreserved apology😉
I'm saying that people of adult age, who haven't developed the necessary skills to negotiate a world of other adults as an adult is not, ipso facto, an adult.
<mod>
Right, OK.
I'm going to close this thread for an hour or so, in order to allow posters time to calm the **** down. Please come back as grown-ups when I reopen it.
Love & kisses,
</mod>
I can see youre all emotional and looking for an argument with these wild ramblings so i’m going to refrain from engaging further as you sound a bit of an unhinged tit.
And I can see that see that we scratched your surface and a little bit of your prejudice came oozing out and now you want to pretend it never happened.
You say this has nothing to do with race. This situation would not been possible without race. There is no way to draw an equivalent to a conflict between two white people.
You wish for some harm to come to this black person but now you won't say exactly what kind of harm.
He is going to come to some harm. Most likely it will take the form of a hostile work environment but who knows, maybe it'll be worse. I'd like to know what level of harm you think will redress the balance.
If you really don't want to say that's fine. If you want to stick to innuendo then I can't do anything about that but I think it's very cowardly.
As far as me being an emotional unhinged tit goes, it's a fair assessment. I feel emotions far more strongly than most but I also have a strong ability to see situations from points of view that aren't entirely defined by my own experiences.
So if it comes to a choice between being an emotional unhinged tit and someone who would wish harm on another person who, let's face it, is not going to be having an easy time of it in the future, I know which one I'd choose any day of the week.
Sounds like you made right choice Op. Good luck going forward.
So much misunderstanding of what racism is and making racist comments does not require any intent nor is intent inferred.
I normally agree with your points of view TJ, but not in this instance. As far as we know no racist comments were made ergo no racism intended or otherwise. OP used a well known phrase to describe something, that’s it. Doesn’t matter either way now any way as it is resolved. I feel sorry for all parties involved.
What we know is a borderline comment was made and it was taken as racist. I agree no racism was intended - thats clear. However it does not need intent to be racist. Unfortunately for some folk, racism is in the eye of the recipient. It has to be that way even tho we may not agree.
for what its worth I have also seen a black woman play the race card to avoid being disciplined and weak management allowing her to get away with it.
to me the comment is borderline, a complaint was made, it needed to be investigated, the normal objective process was followed but we do not know what the outcome of the disciplinary would be. My bet / guess is it would have been the very lowest level of sanction. Informal warning, counselling and a note on file ie " be careful with your words in future please, have a think about it, end of story"
Instead the OP has resigned over what is clearly a very minor matter when staying and taking his lumps would have had no detriment to him whatsoever
I’m saying that people of adult age, who haven’t developed the necessary skills to negotiate a world of other adults as an adult is not, ipso facto, an adult.
Seems to me the complainant behaved in a perfectly adult manner. Using the correct procedures to report racism. What would you have had him do? One black can't take on a racist surrounded by a lot of other white and potentially racist colleagues. Once the OP had rebuffed him with an attacking apology a formal complaint was the right way to deal with it.
I presume that the disciplinary investigation can and will continue in my absence and indeed I imagine it will need to in order to conclude the grievance that was raised. Would I be within my rights to be informed in writing of the outcome of this even though I've now left? I suppose it's something should have thought about earlier, but there you go!
Seems to me the complainant behaved in a perfectly adult manner. Using the correct procedures to report racism. What would you have had him do? One black can’t take on a racist surrounded by a lot of other white and potentially racist colleagues. Once the OP had rebuffed him with an attacking apology a formal complaint was the right way to deal with it.
No doubt in your mind, then. Not only is the OP definitely a racist, but all his colleagues are potentially racist merely because of their skin colour? Incredible.
Well done OP.. that took a lot of guts to do that ..in my eyes you have done absolutely nothing wrong ..the world has gone mad ..
Good luck for the future ..
I'd just like to add something from the viewpoint of the complainant. If benv's original response was not acceptable and conceived as on the aggressive side, he may have felt intimidated and unsafe to approach the matter in the normal chat>line manager>HR route.
Just something that has occurred to me since mulling it over last night.
You now have no rights Benv. You are no longer an employee. Depends on the type of investigation but I would expect there to be no further formal action at all and even if there was you would not be told about it.
there can be no disciplinary as the person being disciplined ( you) ( the investigatory part is over) is no longer an employee. There may be a general investigation in overall workplace culture but I doubt it.
anything told to you now would be a breach of confidentiality
No doubt in your mind, then. Not only is the OP definitely a racist, but all his colleagues are potentially racist merely because of their skin colour? Incredible.
Anyone can be racist whatever their ski colour. Everyone is a potential racist. I've worked in one place where everyone, as in everyone I met, was racist. Longbridge car plant 1978. It went from mild casual racism to dangerous attitudes. Check out the Bristol bus boycott in 1963. If you think it's all different now then this thread is all the proof you need that it isn't. And racism is a vote winner as Farrage and his Brexit posters so clearly demonstrate.
However it does not need intent to be racist. Unfortunately for some folk, racism is in the eye of the recipient. It has to be that way even tho we may not agree.
Interesting...
there can be no disciplinary as the person being disciplined ( you) ( the investigatory part is over) is no longer an employee.
As far as I knew, someone resigning during a disciplinary process can still have their record marked with the verdict as being dismissed if the process finished and showed that would have been outcome?
anything told to you now would be a breach of confidentiality
What about freedom of information or GDPR, isn't there something where you have a right to information an organisation holds on you?
there can be no disciplinary as the person being disciplined ( you) ( the investigatory part is over) is no longer an employee.
Can the OP have an adverse reference against his name if that's the case? Im pretty sure if you leave a role prior to being sacked then the reference can say 'left during during ongoing disciplinary'. If that's the case can the op not request the info under the terms of the gdpr. I didn't think a company could hold information about you (adverse or not) without you having the right to access it?
One black can’t take on a racist surrounded by a lot of other white and potentially racist colleagues
How do you know all the other colleagues were white?
Its true. CFH. Same with sexism, bullying, sexual harassment.
That does not mean that all allegations have to be found to be true, what it does mean is people in the OPs position cannot state what is racist or not about that comment.
Imagine a workplace where blokish behaviour and coarse banter is the norm and a new recruit joins who is gay. the blokish banter may be normal to the rest of the workforce and without malice at all. But to that new recruit its highly offensive. In that case its clear.
Benv, I think you've done the right thing and hope it all works out for the best for you.
I see we still have the usual suspects using the term 'racist'; wrong.
This is alleged or perceived racism; nothing proven.
As for references back to Longbridge in 1978 and the even earlier Bristol bus boycott, they are absolutely pointless other than being an attempt to justify one individual's view - an individual who believes they are always right and invariably adopts a condescending attitude as evidenced by their posts to multiple threads.
If it relates to him then yes he may have rights under GDPR . But nothing about anyone else including what the complainant does or says
As far as I am aware ( and I am now reaching the end of my knowledge) there can be no further disciplinary action here and your file cannot be marked as dismissed as you were not dismissed.
Not at all sure on the "left during disciplinary" reference but I doubt it. the reference you get should simply be " worked here from this date to this date"
Edit
A reference saying " left during disciplinary action" would actually be factually correct
This is alleged or perceived racism; nothing proven.
Correct. the investigation and disciplinary could have exonerated the OP and might well have done
Unfortunately by quitting the process ends and he will never know
OP, I'm really sorry to hear of this outcome - but (assuming that your jobs market is healthy) I do think you have done the right thing.
My wife manages a fairly large department in the public sector, and has been through a few diciplinaries - it seems like even when the complaints are completely outrageous/obviously malicious, the subject of the investigations are always put through the wringer and come out the other side feeling utterly depressed, exhausted and bitter - even if you win, you lose.
Can't blame you for feeling like you do, and applaud you for taking a positive step in an otherwise lose/lose situation for everyone involved - including the complainant.
Using the correct procedures to report racism
You've changed your mind again. First it was, then he felt it was, now you are back to it was. If you picked a position and stuck with it, this would be much easier.
What would you have had him do
If only there was some way you could know that.
he could have had a quiet word with the OP, explained what bothered him and why, OP could have explained his side and they could have parted friends, with a greater understanding of each other.
Note that doesn't require him to do it in front of all the other white and potentially racist people. Hence quiet word. You, know, like an reasonable adult would. If someone steps on your foot do you make a formal complaint to the nearest gendarme, or do you ask them to get off your foot?
Everyone is a potential racist.
And murderer, and, gasp, cyclist. Thank god for the need to actually commit the act and the presumption of innocence.
Just to clarify, racism requires both prejudice and power. So not everyone can be a potential racist.
Now you owe the OP, his colleagues and everyone you worked with at Longbridge an apology for the statements you've made about them without any proof. Sincere and unambiguous I think you said.
the investigation and disciplinary could have exonerated the OP and might well have done
An almost textbook definition of a pyrrhic victory.
Best of luck OP ! I can't imagine the stress levels this would cause, so sometimes better off out.
For all the digs on this thread about me and even my (now ex)colleagues being racist, I'm pretty sure (and I'm not going back to check) I've never even once mentioned anyones skin colour in this whole thread. I never once mentioned anyones skin colour during this mornings meeting either. Yet those making assertions seem a bit too comfortable themselves making generalisations based on it.
FYI at this mornings meeting, myself and umpteen colleagues were casually referred to by the investigator as being people that 'can be seen as pale, male and stale by BAME people, especially young ones coming in to work for us'.
Now I'm far from an expert, but I have since discovered that the use of the acronym BAME has been called into question on numerous occasions as being unacceptable. More so by the looks of the results on google than my original comment that started this whole thing. I never knew this at the time or I would have raised it then and there, but I did raise the prospect that they were somewhat hypocritical by using the pale, male and stale trope. Apparently 'that is different though, and you know it'. Disregarding the fact that we are male, and somewhat pale in complexion, which is contentious enough, to assume that somehow we were stale due to these two traits, and I presume also our ages, could be seen as particulary insulting given the fact that the contract win announced at the start of the week (the breaking news of which triggered this whole episode) was awarded largely in part due to the innovations that this same group of people had themselves came up with!
I honestly don't know what chance anyone has these days, I find it completely bizarre.
Thanks to all expressing good wishes, I really appreciate it!
What an utterly silly thing to lose your job over. If the OP had just acknowledged that he'd offended someone in the first place and offered a genuine apology, it wouldn't have come to this. (That doesn't mean he's a racist, it just means acknowledging that something he'd said inadvertently upset someone else and he was sorry they felt upset).
I have been thru disciplinary as a manager, as a witness, as the disciplined person and as a shop steward. Yes they are horrible - especially in the case where I was disciplined. I'd love to hear a better solution. At least you have a reasonably objective process.
Whats the alternative? Ignore all complaints and wrongdoing? Just dismiss anyone who is complained about or who makes a mistake?
In my case it was horrible to go thru when I was disciplined but I simply cannot see an alternative process. The process must seem fair when viewed from the outside and must be objective on the facts. Its simply unavoidable that its a horrible process to have to go thru
OMG, to use "Pale, male and stale" - WTF are they on.
If the OP had just acknowledged that he’d offended someone in the first place and offered a genuine apology, it wouldn’t have come to this.
I thought he had done in the OP but the complainant hadn’t accepted it and walked out?
This is a fascinating thread. What a cluster ****.
All the best for the future benv.
Good luck benv
Johndoh - no - he made a passive /aggressive non apology
On pale male and stale - the critical bit is "can be seen as" ie he is explaining why they have to take this seriously and pointing out why the comment could be seen as racist.
I’ve never even once mentioned anyones skin colour in this whole thread
So the complainant was a white African?
casually referred to by the investigator as being people that ‘can be seen as pale, male and stale by BAME people
That sounds racist to me, you should take offence and lodge a complaint with HR.
(and sexist and ageist)
I was of course joking just then. ^^
But seriously, "jungle drums" referring to a method of communication is career-ending, but saying "pale, male and stale" by the adjudicator is fine?
They're essentially saying, "you have to understand that the people complaining are racist and you have to make allowances for that." Wow.
You've not done yourself any favours, but it sounds an awful lot like they want rid of you and you've given them an excuse.
I’ve never even once mentioned anyones skin colour in this whole thread
Maybe you should. Someone else did, Tpbiker, nothing to do with the person being black according to him. I've avoided talking directly to you OP and discussed in generalities with others. If you want to get personal there's some really interesting stuff in your posting history.
The last time we exchanged forum posts was on a thread about a week ago benv, yours was the first post, mine was the second. Unrelated but your sexist sense of humour is not appreciated by all:
benv
Member
Isn’t it also marking the day in the year where the gender paygap effectively means women are working for free until the new year now?
Great! I will stop paying the cleaners until January then. Except the male ones of course – Happy Men’s Day lads! More beer money for you.
Posted 1 week ago
Its simply unavoidable that its a horrible process to have to go thru
Not really. Look at the OPs account of the very first meeting of his disciplinary - very easily could have been handled less "horribly" imo, even while achieving objectivity. It just sounds like HR were particularly officious and, in a very marginal case, caused somebody to feel like they had no option but to leave.
Cougar
NOpe
"Jungle drums" is not career ending. I was never going to be a dismissal and unlikely even to be a formal warning ( unless there is more in the OPs history we do not know. Easy unfair dismissal case if dismissed for that.
Nor is your interpretation of pale male and stale right because you miss the "can be seen as" Nor is that person the adjudicator - he is the investigator and from the way I see it trying to help Benv understand the others point of view.
Batfink
From my own fairly extensive experience of disciplinary and investigation it was the usual and normal investigation. If the OP had had union support to help him understand the process it might well have been much less stressful for him. that to me is the real shame in all this. That with the right support the OP could have been in a much better place to deal with this.
The OP had not even got to the disciplinary - he was in the investigative stage and resigned after than. No disciplinary ever started
I take it you have never been involved in one.
But seriously, “jungle drums” referring to a method of communication is career-ending
No, that's just a thoughtless expression that could have been resolved right at the beginning. What's career ending is the behaviour afterwards - the clearly non-genuine apology followed by complaining about the complainant to other employees, etc. If the company didn't hold a disciplinary hearing on that follow-up behaviour, they would be opening themselves up to charges that they implicitly condoned harassment.
So the complainant was a white African?
I used African as a description because the guy was born in Africa to African parents although he moved here when he was young. I used African descent rather than just African because that's how he described himself - ie African Scottish. How do I know this? Because we have previously had several civil conversations (I thought pleasant ones).
I thought mentioning he was of African descent rather than he was black was more appropriate in the context of my OP and the words I used to which he took offence to. At the time of my post, I was sure that Africa was central to the origin of the phrase and had I referred to him as black only, well he could be from any number of backgrounds. From reading contributions to this thread, I learned that the phrase could also be attributed to parts of Asia and South America.
Nor is your interpretation of pale male and stale right because you miss the “can be seen as”
So he was asking the OP to accept that he was being judged negatively on the basis of both his race and his age..... and he should accept that and adjust his behavior accordingly? AS PART OF AN INVESTIGATION INTO THE OP USING RACIST LANGUAGE? Really? No hint of irony or hypocracy there?
I take it you have never been involved in one.
No - but as I said, I've seen the impact they have on people, even when you come out "exonerated"
Like those people from the OPs HR department, perhaps you've become desensitized to the impact that this has on people who don't go through this as part of their day job?
“Jungle drums” is not career ending.
Yet directly or indirectly it's cost him his job.
Nor is your interpretation of pale male and stale right because you miss the “can be seen as”
Oh come on. You're splitting hairs between "is racist" and "might be racist"?
Nor is that person the adjudicator – he is the investigator
Potayto, potahto. Find and replace words, it doesn't change the point.
No, that’s just a thoughtless expression that could have been resolved right at the beginning. What’s career ending is the behaviour afterwards
That's a very good point.
Which one was he in a disciplinary for?
cougar - his unwillness to engage with the investigation has cost him his job. he threw his teddys out of the pram and quit. Your interpretation of the pale male and stale is waaaaaaaaaaaay differnt to mine. Its not stating others are racist in any way. Not in the slightest
Batfink - not at all. I am not desensitised if anything my own experience of being disciplined has made me even more sensitive as has the experience of having a false allegations made against me that was investigated and if found to be true would have put me in jail. Now thats stressful
Really? No hint of irony or hypocracy there?
NOpe - just ( IMO) you not understanding this at all
At the time of my post, I was sure that Africa was central to the origin of the phrase and had I referred to him as black only
Which is fair enough, and yes possibly more relevant than merely "black" in that case. But you can't then really argue that you'd never mentioned anyone's skin colour because it's implicit in the OP; why would a white African be objecting to 'jungle drums' any more that Brian from S****horpe?
NOpe – just ( IMO) you not understanding this at all
Ah, I stand corrected then. But it's only about whether somebody was offended, right? The OP felt it was racist - so therefore it was, and the offender should immediately issue a heartfelt apology?
his unwillness to engage with the investigation has cost him his job.
His eagerness to jack in his job cost him his job. Sounds like he was perfectly willing to cooperate until he ran away. Though that raises other questions.
Your interpretation of the pale male and stale is waaaaaaaaaaaay differnt to mine. Its not stating others are racist in any way. Not in the slightest
In the middle of an alleged racism investigation the investigator comes out with "pale male and stale" and you don't see that as even remotely problematic? I want a new union rep.
If I walked past a group of young black women at work and overheard them saying "yeah, that Cougar, he's pale male and stale" I'd be off to HR myself.
Apologies all - this seems to have got me disproportionately annoyed on behalf of the OP - decaf for the rest of the day I think.
(In truth I work from home, so if I walked past a group of young black women at work I'd be going "WTF are you doing in my living room?")
I see it as unwise. He was trying to help the OP understand where the complaint came from . He lost his objectivity and used a phrase unwisely in such a way it was open to misinterpretation
don't worry - If I was in there as union rep I would use your interpretation to hammer him if I thought it appropriate. 😉
right - its been very interesting. I hope my contributions have been helpful. Waaaaaaaaaaay pat my bedtime
edit: deleted (sorry)
I see it as unwise. He was trying to help the OP understand where the complaint came from
... by suggesting that the complainant might be racist?
He lost his objectivity and used a phrase unwisely in such a way it was open to misinterpretation
Much like the OP, then?
If the OP had had union support to help him understand the process it might well have been much less stressful for him. that to me is the real shame in all this. That with the right support the OP could have been in a much better place to deal with this.
Well that is a definite lesson I've taken away. Never in my life have I been the recipient of a grievance or subject to any disciplinary process. I will strive not to in future either, but if I do, I'll be better prepared for sure.
One thing I will say though is that I'll be much more careful about what companies I'll work for in future. There seems to be a direction corporate culture is heading at present that is totally alien to me. I'll be in no rush to be part of it again in future. Life's too short and work takes up too much a chunk of it as it is, without having to spend the rest of it walking on eggshells.
Which is fair enough, and yes possibly more relevant than merely “black” in that case. But you can’t then really argue that you’d never mentioned anyone’s skin colour because it’s implicit in the OP; why would a white African be objecting to ‘jungle drums’ any more that Brian from S****horpe?
Well Africa is not a colour. I stand by my point which was more about making sweeping generalisations based on skin colour. I used that description to make it personal to him, deliberately not using a more generic term. Believe it or not, I was trying to be more sensitive in doing so, but seems you're damned if you do, damned if you don't, all on someone elses whim at that.
Personally I think the OP has been poorly treated, some of the language used against him "pale male and stale" is jaw dropping. But he hasn't quite said how the term jungle drums was used ? I mentioned I'd heard it used in a racist manner and this is how it was. It was my first job late 70's, in the sales office there was one manager who'd sometimes ask one of the girls to get some one on the phone. There was one black girl Janice and if he asked her, it was get so and so on the jungle drums, only her everyone else was phone or blower. The term can be used in a racist manner, something I'm aware of. It's a term I've long since stopped using.
Well Africa is not a colour.
It's not, but I doubt very much that anyone contributing to this discussion every remotely considered that you might be talking about someone like Elon Musk.
It's hard to conceive how you might think "African complains about the use of the term 'jungle drums'" could be taken any other way than the complainant being someone who might stereotypically be banging such drums. Surely that's the crux of the complaint.
I was on your side from the outset based on the accounts you've given, I think the charge is spurious, I have every sympathy and I wouldn't wish what's happened to you on anyone. But the more you post, the more I think there's more to all this than you're letting on. There's too much that doesn't add up.
His eagerness to jack in his job cost him his job. Sounds like he was perfectly willing to cooperate until he ran away. Though that raises other questions.
I was willing to cooperate until I realised I was in the fortunate position where I didn't have to put up with being in what I thought was a shitty situation totally blown out of all proportion. If I was in a process where I felt I was being treated fairly then yes I would have seen it through. As it was I felt that it could have ended up going anywhere, so why should I put up with that if I didn't have to? If that 'raises other questions' then raise them and don't make snide digs about me running away either. I made a sincere effort to resolve this both directly and amicably.
But the more you post, the more I think there’s more to all this than you’re letting on. There’s too much that doesn’t add up.
I think I've been fairly open and honest, can't see from my posts any pertinent information I've missed out, but whatever, it's over now and I am happy with my decision and how I've handled myself. That's all that matters to me just now.
But he hasn’t quite said how the term jungle drums was used ?
I was hunched over along with two others on a mobile phone on speaker in the main office area (holds about 10 people) discussing a meeting that finished about 30mins before that I had just returned from. I was asked by the person on the phone if I had passed on the good news yet to the others about a contract we just won to which I said yes, but the jungle drums beat me to it. Said in a lighthearted manner not aimed at anyone in particular. Someone else at the meeting had obviously phoned or messaged ahead of me getting back and word had naturally spread quickly around the small depot.
I touched on this on page one, but should have expanded on it.
Maybe, but in this particular case it was a reference to the fact that the jungle drums beat me to telling some good news. I had travelled back 30mins or so from a meeting and was going to deliver some news in person about a contract win, but by the time I got there they aready knew. I wasn’t complaining about it, or said it in a negative way, I just said that the jungle drums beat me to it.
I was willing to cooperate until I realised I was in the fortunate position where I didn’t have to put up with being in what I thought was a shitty situation totally blown out of all proportion.
That sounds totally reasonable TBH. I'd have fought harder perhaps, but then I'm an obstinate shit.
it’s over now and I am happy with my decision and how I’ve handled myself. That’s all that matters to me just now.
Good.
so if I walked past a group of young black women at work I’d be goin WTF are you doing in my living room?”)
Cos they're young or cos they're women or cos they're black? Just trying to figure out what kind of ist you are.
The pale male and stale Was not "used against him" nor is it racist in that context in any way. Its a clumsy way of trying to show the OP how the workplace culture could be perceived.
I consider STW to be very pale and male. It clearly is. that gives STW a certain culture. Its very noticable .
One thing I will say though is that I’ll be much more careful about what companies I’ll work for in future.
You probably also need to learn about what is seen as appropriate language. I would never use the term jungle drums as it just immediately sounds inappropriate. Mentioned it to my wife and her sub second reaction was "you can't use that term"
Yes you can try and blame the company for keeping up with the more enlightened times, trying to ensure the workplace is harmonious for all etc,. but in an ideal world all companies should be doing that and you will eventually run out of places to work while you sit at home reading the Daily Mail and shouting to yourself "it's PC gone mad"
You probably also need to learn about what is seen as appropriate language
It may a scewwed opinion but from the responses on here to the situation shows that it is not commonly know as inappropriate language. It may develop into that as a result of this or other events, but at the time it seems the majority would say it's acceptable in the context given.
I have been talked to about using a term that was used by someone else in the conversation 30 secs earlier. I had no power to reverse the 'talking to' even if others in the room were shock at how I was treated (even the person we were referring to).
If someone is blinded by process or what they think is right it is very hard to direct them away from that.
I was asked by the person on the phone if I had passed on the good news yet to the others about a contract we just won to which I said yes, but the jungle drums beat me to it.
Thanks for that OP. In that context definitely not racist. Good luck for the future hope everything works out 👍👍
It may a scewwed opinion but from the responses on here to the situation shows that it is not commonly know as inappropriate language. It may develop into that as a result of this or other events, but at the time it seems the majority would say it’s acceptable in the context given.
To me it seemed immediately wrong, to my wife it seemed immediately wrong. We don't need to know whether it is commonly known as inappropriate language, nobody needs to tell us that.
you will eventually run out of places to work while you sit at home reading the Daily Mail and shouting to yourself “it’s PC gone mad"
Wow. The use of tired old stereotypes to belittle others. A tactic beloved of amongst others, genuine racists. Well done.
To me it seemed immediately wrong, to my wife it seemed immediately wrong.
I asked 3 of my colleagues. Whilst not hr professionals they work in hr (as do i) for a huge organisation that has won numerous awards for diversity.
None thought it particularly racist, albeit one had never even heard of the expression. So no I can't imagine it's that obvious at all, and the fact you are in the minority on here tends to confirm that.
In that context definitely not racist
Even if the person that passed on the good news before he got a chance was the complainant?
Even if the person that passed on the good news before he got a chance was the complainant?
Someone else alluded to that on page 2. Would certainly put a different spin on things if that was the context tbh.
Even if the person that passed on the good news before he got a chance was the complainant?
Goes back to page 2 where benv did respond...
Wasn’t the offended guy who passed on the news was it? In that context I can see how it could be offensive!
That’s a great point actually, I don’t know who found out first but it’s a real possibility, and I’d definitely agree it wouldn’t have been a nice thing to say if it could have been taken as I was calling him jungle drums. I will try and speak with him in the morning.
Was the complainant at the meeting?
it seems the majority would say it’s acceptable in the context given.
It doesn't matter what a handful of people on an internet forum think, what matters is what any HR department in any company would think, which is that it's not an appropriate expression to use.
I'm not saying the OP is racist for using it, that's not the issue. The problem is that "jungle drums" is typical of the expressions that racists do use as dog whistles and it's impossible for your audience to know whether you're a racist trying to be clever or just someone who hasn't really thought about how the expression sounds. In other words, it's not that you are a racist, it's just that using that term is pretty much guaranteed to make some people believe you are a racist. No company is going to want to hire someone who is likely to use problematic expressions, so the smart thing to do is stop using them.
AND don't complain about people objecting to you using problematic expressions. That's worse than using them in the first place, pretty much guaranteed to see you out of a job, this thread being Exhibit A.
None thought it particularly racist,
"Particularly"? So just a tiny bit racist, but not enough to be really offensive then?
To me it seemed immediately wrong, to my wife it seemed immediately wrong.
Do you mean that immediately to you and your wife it seemed wrong? What did you think after you’d given it some consideration? I think your stance is very harsh on the OP. Others above, Cougar (iirc) put more eloquently than I could, my take on how the comment was not racist. In a country where overt racism is still a day to day experience for many, I do not think the way this has been handled by the OP’s company is helpful in an overall aim to reduce racism. Language is very complex and it’s roots are often vague - I wouldn’t be totally confident that there are not other words or phrases that we use, that offend some group. For me intent needs to be taken into account and through education we move forward.
[Apologies for the poor structure of the above, I hope it was moderately intelligible.]