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What would I call my bungalow?
Dunroamin?
I don't have a problem with jungle drums, it's a well used term to describe word getting around. It's not banned in my office and no one has taken offence to it, however, if someone can explain why its racist ill stop using it.
For example, I recently learned the meaning of nitty gritty on a mike Duncan history podcast and subsequently I don't use it. In fact I try to explain to anyone who uses it, where the tern came from.
To me, one refers to a term of communication used in the past. The other refers to the slave trade and the horrific conditions they were transported in which often resulted in death, disease and starvation.
Happy to be educated/corrected.
Doris, just because you've never heard these phrases doesn't mean they don't exist. FFS there are a whole subset of members on here who think because a phrase has the word 'jungle' in it then it's automagically racist.
Its just a phrase that means whatever information has been conveyed was done so ahead of any official word of mouth. Rumour mill, grapevine, bush telegraph, call it what you will but its just a slang term that if it ever had racist roots have been forgotten from memory.
If it had been prejoratively applied to the person in question then yes, without a doubt racist but that's clearly not the case.
Awaiting the court case proving just how tight a nun's chuff isn't.
Mon Repose?
For example, I recently learned the meaning of nitty gritty on a mike Duncan history podcast and subsequently I don’t use it. In fact I try to explain to anyone who uses it, where the tern came from.
You’ll need to unlearn that as it turned out to be made up and simply untrue.
For example, I recently learned the meaning of nitty gritty on a mike Duncan history podcast and subsequently I don’t use it. In fact I try to explain to anyone who uses it, where the tern came from.
You might like to research that a bit further.
FFS there are a whole subset of members on here who think because a phrase has the word ‘jungle’ in it then it’s automagically racist.
Er no.. we're suggesting that you listen to the people that might be affected by this and act with sensitivity, rather than trying to whitesplain racism to black people.
Still not entirely sure how the phrase is racist
Guessing you're white, imnotverygood?
Why would you expect to understand racism fully, if you're white? I know I don't - I listen and try to understand though.
Ok molly. The problem is you actually have to be able to tell me why it is racist though don’t you. Otherwise we will have a situation where I will continue to blunder around making offensive remarks because I have no way of knowing that they are racist by virtue of the fact that I am white. Tricky eh?
I know I don’t – I listen and try to understand though.
Thing is, who are you listening to? Being black does not make you necessarily accurate. There are some ignorant, poorly informed black people too. The bloke taking offence might 'possibly' be basing his offence on a poor understanding of the term. Thought about it all evening and I still can't quite put my finger on specifically why it should be considered racist.
Tricky eh?
It’s really difficult.
Why would you expect to understand racism fully, if you’re white?
You kidding ? We invented it 🙂
... though FWIW, "mansplaining" "whitesplaining" and associated derivatives are IMO (granted, as a white male) the very peak of trite, dismissive, passive-aggressive bollocks - no better than the behaviour they're used to describe. No offence.
Spear chucker = racist
Jungle drummer =
Possibly the term jungle drums evokes black people in a backwards way?
Should I be expecting to find myself in hot water at work?
That’s racist!
And there are some here who come across as patronising and condescending.
Can I watch the new Jumanji? It is set in a jungle and judging by the other two it will also contain drumming.
Can I watch the new Jumanji?
Well, you can. But you really shouldn’t.
Hope that helps.
Doris, just because you’ve never heard these phrases doesn’t mean they don’t exist.
thanks, I appreciate the helpful tip
If it had been prejoratively applied to the person in question then yes, without a doubt racist but that’s clearly not the case.
But the reverse is not true. A racist joke or comment does not become un-racist as soon as any BME people leave the room.
The bloke taking offence might ‘possibly’ be basing his offence on a poor understanding of the term. Thought about it all evening and I still can’t quite put my finger on specifically why it should be considered racist.
Indeed, but many of us can agree that it might fall into a bit of a grey or uncertain area. There is a long tradition of White Europeans using terms similar to this one in dismissive or pejorative fashion, so although the bloke might have got the wrong end of the stick, it's not hard to imagine that he has heard plenty of genuine shit in his time, and may even have just been insulted on the street 5 minutes earlier, putting him in a sensitive frame of mind.
So it's probably easiest if we try and stay off our high horses and be understanding. Though some here would no doubt disagree.
because a phrase has the word ‘jungle’ in it then it’s automatically racist
This was my initial thought, I must admit.
I can see how somebody might take offence at the phrase - particularly if the bloke in question thought he was being directly accused of gossiping. Similar to calling a child a "cheeky monkey" - if my toddler (white) is misbehaving and I call him a cheeky monkey, no issue - monkeys are cheeky. That's different to producing a poster of a black child with the words "cheeky monkey" written underneath.
Either way - at the risk of looking like I'm attacking the victim - I also think it's pretty poor to openly accuse somebody of racism/using racist language in such a marginal case. Overt racism - sure, let em have it in front of everyone. Somebody says something that's in common parlance, in the correct context, which you find offensive? Call them out on it sure, but I don't think that being accused of racism in front of your colleagues is particularly proportional in this case
Ridiculous.
I am offended by the PC brigade and I don't expect an apology from them.
Spear chucker = racist
Jungle drummer =
Good effort.... but no. Nobody called anybody anything.
I cant think of a circumstance where a phrase like jungle drums would even enter my vocab today unless I was watching King Kong or Johnny Weissmuller. Maybe when I was 10 in 1970s
There is a long tradition of White Europeans using terms similar to this one......
Indeed, that's about as close as to why it might be racist as I've got. It will have been previously uttered by a man in a pith helmet and knee length socks who was a dreadful racist who said some unspeakable things so therefore this term is racist too. He also probably said 'who's for a gin and tonic?' but I'm still clear to say that without fear of offence I think.
....in dismissive or pejorative fashion
Thing is I genuinely can't see a dismissive or pejorative angle to this phrase. It's almost a positive one - the efficient dissemination of information and the calling to arms.
The problem is you actually have to be able to tell me why it is racist though don’t you.
No, I don't - I'm white, I'm not a victim of racism, I haven't experienced it. What I am trying to do is prompt you to listen and think, rather than act like you know all about it.
though FWIW, “mansplaining” “whitesplaining” and associated derivatives are IMO (granted, as a white male) the very peak of trite, dismissive, passive-aggressive bollocks
No? You don't think it's a bit rich trying to define what is and isn't racist or racially offensive, when you're white in a historically white country? I used that term very carefully, to make a specific point. I'm not just pulling it out of the generic woke insult bag.
Being black does not make you necessarily accurate. There are some ignorant, poorly informed black people too.
Indeed there are, thank you for pointing this out. Listening to people does not mean automatically accepting everything they say. But you should be aware that there is FAR more to racism than simply 'black people are rubbish', and that if you're white you are simply oblivious to it. So you cannot really assert a strong point of view on a topic about which you probably understand very little.
Thing is I genuinely can’t see a dismissive or pejorative angle to this phrase.
That's to be expected, but maybe the OP's colleague can...
That’s to be expected
I simply don't buy that and find it a little insulting. I may not have had it beaten (physically or emotionally) into me but to say 'you weren't there man' like some Nam vet is just naff. Empathy, decentering and common intellect based on reasonable general knowledge can't be dismissed out hand as irrelevant. How do you think historians and scholars operate? I might not be able to 'feel' the racial element but can deduce. I am also a man but have worked with female rape victims. By your rational I would have no hope of being on the same page but curiously I have apparently been useful to them. How in the world did that happen?
So, I know you are white and therefore dumb as **** like most here, but what's you take on why it is categorically racist (i.e. enough to step into a conversation you were not part of and call it out)?
So the fact that drums are used in the jungle is considered racist ?
https://boingboing.net/2018/04/27/how-amazonian-drums-sound-and.html
It happens ..so why is it deemed so ?
I also thought that your 'I didn't give offence' was oddly phrased. Words came out of your mouth which offended someone, so you did whether you wanted to or not.
Maybe 'no offence was intended' would be more diplomatic if/when you're summoned for a chat.
Anyway, best of luck. I can see both sides but it really shouldn't become a big thing if both parties just acknowledge the other's perspective and move on.
and move on
And avoid using it in future because from a bit of Googling and this thread I've learned that it's becoma a contentious expression to the point it's best avoided, like many others. Moving with the times is a social skill.
Jesus, you suggest to white people they might not be able to use a phrase that they probably use a couple of times a year at most and they lose their shit.
'I refuse to stop using this phrase until you explain to me why exactly it is racist!'
You offended someone. Apologise profusely. It's what you do if you bump into someone in the street even if it wasn't your fault. You don't stop and have a debate about pedestrian right of way and then have start a 63 page forum post about it.
Nobody is saying you are racist for using this phrase. Nobody is even saying you are ignorant. It's just a phrase that some people are now finding offensive. There are a lot of them. It's impossible to be 100% sure what could cause offense these days. If someone gets offended by a throw away phrase apologise profusely (ie. 'I'm so sorry, I had no idea it was offensive. It's something I never even considered but now you say it it's obvious. I'm sorry, I'll pay more attention in future.' as opposed to 'I'm sorry if you took offense but in my opinion it's not racist and there is really nothing you should be getting upset about.') and move on with your life free from the harassment and discrimination faced by many minorities.
One of the downsides of being white is you don't get to explain to black people what they can and can't be offended by. No matter many how many of your black friends tell you it's fine.
For example, I recently learned the meaning of nitty gritty on a mike Duncan history podcast and subsequently I don’t use it. In fact I try to explain to anyone who uses it, where the tern came from.
Do they correct you or just nod and smile?
Do they correct you or just nod and smile?
And
You’ll need to unlearn that as it turned out to be made up and simply untrue.
There is more evidence that nitty gritty is racist than jungle drums.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1988776.stm
The fundamentals, realities or basic facts of a situation or subject. <b>The heart of the matter</b>.
<b>ORIGIN: </b>according to the Oxford English Dictionary Online, the term started as <b>US slang</b> but its origin is unknown. Editor of the Dictionary of Slang, Jonathon Green, speculates it is merely a reduplication of the standard English word gritty.
<b>ORIGIN 2: </b>one theory is that "nitty-gritty" refers to the debris left in the bottom of a <b>slave ships</b> at the end of a voyage. Hence, use of the term is highly contentious and has been banned by the police.
Debunked.
https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/nitty-gritty.html
Even in your link.
<b>DISPUTED: </b>some <b>wordsmiths are sceptical</b>that the word has such a long history. Dr Jonathan Lighter, editor of the Historical Dictionary of American Slang, records the first example from 1956: "You'll find nobody comes down to the nitty-gritty when it calls for namin' things for what they are."
<b>DISPUTED 2: </b>the view that "nitty-gritty" has slave connotations "may belong in the same line of folklore which holds that a picnic was a slave lynching party," writes lexicographer Michael Quinion in his World Wide Words website. "Its origins are elusive," writes Mr Quinion, but it is <b>"inconceivable</b> that it should have been around since slave-ship days without somebody writing it down [until the mid-20th Century]."
So the fact that drums are used in the jungle is considered racist ?
No, no, no, it really isn't. Try to learn here - instead of trying to defend your current position which appears to be one of ignorance. But don't worry, it's ok to admit to yourself that you did't understand something.
Yes, these terms are vague and loose connotations. But that's the nature of racism - ignorant attitudes are baked into society, still, and this is why we need to pick it all apart. Because the everyday language we use can be quite oppressive still when you are on the wrong side of it.
Debunked
But isn't that the whole point of this argument?
If one person is offended by a phrase, a statement etc then it is possibly racist and shouldn't be used.
We all know you can find an argument for or against on the Internet.
The fact its been banned by the police suggests there is enough reason to stop using it.
At least there is some evidence behind this phrase. I've still not seen any evidence for why jungle drums is racist.
‘Sending up smoke signals’ would be a close equivalent I guess. Nothing derogatory about using either term as long as you weren’t using it to describe a particular colleague or group.
BIGOT! You better watch out for the legions of offended Catholics (they'll think you're mocking the papal election process). If they don't get you the Native Americans will.
Listen / read what molgrips has to say. He has explained it well.
Someone mentioned above that racists have started using the term to refer to thumping music coming out of cars driven by black people.
It's possible that, while it doesn't have racist roots, racists have adopted it recently and made it racist. In which case your beef is with racists, and not 'overly sensitive' black people. Maybe the black person in question has experienced it being used as a racist term first hand. The fact is he is far more likely to know what is and isn't racist than you are.
I don't think that **** was a racist term when it was first used, anymore than calling someone from Scotland a Scot. However, racists kept on shouting '****ing ****s!' until it became a racist term.
Edit: The swear filter has made a bit of a mess of my final paragraph but I'm sure you get the jist.
Can I request that the OP (diplomatically) asks the offended colleague how he'd heard "jungle drums" used in a racist way before? Or if he'd even heard it before?
Purely in the spirit of mutual understanding, obvs.
Is it wrong that this comment made me chuckle because someone called banana posted it , runs and hides
I cant think of a circumstance where a phrase like jungle drums would even enter my vocab today unless I was watching King Kong or Johnny Weissmuller. Maybe when I was 10 in 1970s
Someone mentioned above that racists have started using the term to refer to thumping music coming out of cars driven by black people.
It’s possible that, while it doesn’t have racist roots, racists have adopted it recently and made it racist. In which case your beef is with racists, and not ‘overly sensitive’ black people. Maybe the black person in question has experienced it being used as a racist term first hand. The fact is he is far more likely to know what is and isn’t racist than you are.
This is a very valid point.
The bigger crime is it sounds like something David Brent would say
Doris I agree on being understanding but that comes with the caveat of understanding the why of the situation and not just accepting anything is a pejorative term based solely on one person's say so.
Your point about the reverse not being true holds no water here. Its not like he called him a [insert pejorative term] which then became acceptable when he left the room. The comment was not directed at him, was not used in a derogatory fashion and thus far whilst people have a couple of links to one other sole case where it caused offence nobody has managed to provide any evidence that it is racist in any way shape or form. This isnt a case of people deciding what's not demonstrably racist as opposed to folk arbitrarily deciding something is racist with no proof whatsoever.
If we can just decide what's a pejorative term with no reasonable proof needed then as a Scot I expect the next person to use the terms 'Edinburgh defence' and 'Scot free' to feel the ban hammer. If anyone objects to this then how dare you decide what is and isn't offensive.
Im with the "not racist" brigade on this. Its ridiculous to even think it is, its a popular colloquial term for disseminating information. Someone early mentioned about smoke signals, well these could just as easily be racist to Indigenous Americans, or anywhere else smoke was used in the world – im certain no-one will find it offensive though.
To the OP, I think you’ve done yourself, and even the offendee a disservice by acknowledging his “offence”. There is no right in life to be “offended” just because you feel that way, sometimes you have to accept your just plain wrong and to get over it. I’d go as far to say, you need to go back to him and in a more polite way, say – “im not sorry actually, you’re just being a ****, and if you want to take it further, bring on a tribunal (or whatever)
There's a Stephen fry snippet somewhere that says it better..
Oh good, the 'Black people, get over it!' brigade have arrived.
Blimey! Its all gone a bit Jim Davidson on here, hasn't it?
No the
BruceWee
Member
Oh good, the ‘Black people, get over it!’ brigade have arrived.
that's not what is being said at all, and your ignorance to suggest it is plays a part in the problem of overly-sensitive views being given creedance. I think through the various posts we've mostly agreed there is nothing inherently worng with the saying, therefore the point about telling anyone who sees offense in something that they should not, irrepsecitve of colour, creed, sex that they do not have a valid point is right.
You literally told the OP to go and find this black person and tell him to 'Get over it, you ****!', you massive massive lunatic.
I have not read all the responses, but my take on this is that if the OP had said the phrase directly to or referencing any person 'of African descent' then it could be considered racist but, if it was said as a term simply to suggest there is idle gossip running through the company then I think it would be quite absurd to suggest it was used in a racist manner.
Aren't "whitesplaining" and "mansplaining" racist and sexist by definition?
Many terms however depend where you are and context... my mate was offended being told he couldn't use the word "black" to describe himself but must use the word African American which he found offensive being Beninese.
Even after he'd explained he was African not in any way American and found the American part inappropriate they refused to back down which is when he started to get offended.
BruceWee
Member
You literally told the OP to go and find this black person and tell him to ‘Get over it, you ****!’, you massive massive lunatic.
No, i said go and find 'the' person who is being unduley sensitive to get over it.. At no point did i, or anyone else say "black people need to get over it".. Context is important, and without leads to injustice or otherwise trial by media snippet like what you are doing.. POint stands - the OP should not have apologised and frankly going back to someone and saying, "do you know what, i've thought about this and actually i've come to some very carefull consideration, that i was not wrong and i believe you having taken a common term, and turned it to to bolster an invlaid view is injust"...
I'm sure that approach would end really, really well
Definitely.
binners
Subscriber
I’m sure that approach would end really, really wellDefinitely.
so are we afraid to put people right for fear of offending their incorrect view? Should we not say, do you know hat mate, that grass clearly isn't blue, it's green... Surely, and i'll wager that at some point in your life someone has had to tell you you are wrong, and you may have considered it and gone, yeah i was. But what if they didnt tell you you were wrong, and you continued to push you [incorrect] view to the detriment of others - would that be good??
I'm not too sure now
Clearly I'm not blessed with your extensive experience in international diplomacy and race relations
No it's not racist. And of course you won't get into trouble from hr. At worst you may be asked to refrain from using the term again.
Just read what Molegrips said. He explained it well.
FFS guys get over yourselves. Its not the 1970s.
"Put people right?" A member of the white majority telling a member of the black minority that considered a statement racist that they are wrong? You cannot see what is wrong t=with that. jeepers. Before you judge a man walk a mile in his shoes
The problem is you actually have to be able to tell me why it is racist though don’t you.
No, I don’t – I’m white, I’m not a victim of racism, I haven’t experienced it. What I am trying to do is prompt you to listen and think, rather than act like you know all about it.
Right molly, but that's the point. I'm all ears. I am listening & you are unable to tell me why it is racist. I can't avoid using racist phrases unless I have an idea why that phrase in particular (& even more importantly why a whole susbset of phrases which some people might think racist) unless I am able to recognise the factors that make the wording problematic.
Before you judge a man walk a mile in his shoes
...then you can say whatever you like, because you're a mile away and you have his shoes.
But if we stop using jungle drums, then we're going to get the bass solo. And that's what we all fear.
I feel sorry for you OP. It is so easy to offend nowadays without intention. I'd be nice to him and ask him why it's offensive so you have more insight and say your sorry.
Init. Whether the language is racist is almost a side issue (albeit it's got a few folk rather het up for some reason...). The main issue is not apologising for causing inadvertent offence.
If I accidentally upset someone, I dunno, swhose granny had died of albumen poisoning, I'd not spend ages trying to justify myself and say really if they see things in a balanced way "teaching your granny to suck eggs" was a perfectly normal thing for me to say.so they should just get over it, especially as it was ten years ago and albumen poisoning isn't a thing. You'd say, "really sorry, I had no idea, i'm really really sorry" wouldn't you? Job done.
Jungle drums? Nah. I take it back. As I type the phrase it now makes me think of casual use of clearly racist terms for black people with the word 'jungle'in them, and on to bongo bongo land', umbongo umbongo they drink it in the congo - yep that's what's lying round in my head. The 70s eh? What a time for free speech.
But mainly:
The bigger crime is it sounds like something David Brent would say
“Put people right?” A member of the white majority telling a member of the black minority
here we go again - information snippets not used in context - are you "The Sun", or the "Daily Wail"
I have at no point used the term "people" in the perjortive of black vs white (or any other colour for that matter), to the contrary i made it explicityly clear, that any view point, no matter where it is coming from directed at whatever "crowd" (for want of a better term) where that view is not valid, is absolutley correct that people (again, not associating with any specific creed, colour, sex) should be called out and people (see last statement) should not be afraid to correct people (again see previous explanation).
@ Molgrips
I wasnt aware that I was defending any position ..you really must try to stop second guessing what I'm thinking ( you're not that clever ).
It was a rhetorical question ..I was merely posting a link to a video which shows that drums are used in jungles / heavily forested areas as a form of communication ..I hadn't actually given any personal opinion as to whether I thought it was a racist comment ..however for once I'm in complete agreement with your assertion that " no no no it really is not .."
As for the rest of your post ..pure fluff...your veiled insults are water off a ducks back " (apologies to any ducks who might find that comment offensive)..
Again - trumpton has it
Its an easy solution:
"I did not realise that could be seen as racist, help me understand"
It is both hilarious and frustrating watching white folk telling black folk what is racist and what is not.
Of course "jungle drums" is racist. They are words after all and therefore people are perfectly entitled to get offended by them.
Reminds me of the time I saw the word "haggis" used. As a Scot I was utterly shocked. Okay it was on a restaurant menu, in Glasgow, but all the same the sheer racism off it made me almost choke on my deep fried Irn-Bru.
It is both hilarious and frustrating watching white folk telling black folk what is racist and what is not.
As funny as watching an atheist define what is, and isn't anti-semitic?
I have at no point used the term “people” in the perjortive of black vs white (or any other colour for that matter), to the contrary i made it explicityly clear, that any view point, no matter where it is coming from directed at whatever “crowd” (for want of a better term) where that view is not valid, is absolutley correct that people (again, not associating with any specific creed, colour, sex) should be called out and people (see last statement) should not be afraid to correct people (again see previous explanation).
I got lost halfway.
johnx2
Member
I have at no point used the term “people” in the perjortive of black vs white (or any other colour for that matter), to the contrary i made it explicityly clear, that any view point, no matter where it is coming from directed at whatever “crowd” (for want of a better term) where that view is not valid, is absolutley correct that people (again, not associating with any specific creed, colour, sex) should be called out and people (see last statement) should not be afraid to correct people (again see previous explanation).I got lost halfway.
its OK i got lost halfway through writting it
How about 'smoke signals'? Racist?
It is both hilarious and frustrating watching white folk telling black folk what is racist and what is not.
So... Let's take the 'nitty-gritty' example. Let's just assume that it has been convincing demonstrated that the phrase has nothing at all to do with slave ships or derived from a racist French phrase or whatever & instead is just an adaption of the word grit. Humour me on this. Do you think that you shouldn't actually point this out to someone who is accusing you of using a racist phrase?
I wasn't aware that I was defending any position
No I think you are, internally. But yeah just a supposition.
Right molly, but that’s the point. I’m all ears. I am listening & you are unable to tell me why it is racist.
I'm not going to tell you why or even if it's racist - I'm white, it wouldn't really be appropriate even if I thought I knew. I'm suggesting things to think about as to why people might be upset by this use of language.
It's pretty clear the OP was oblivious to the impact of his words and is entirely innocent. But we should take this as an opportunity to think about things from a different point of view. Not have a cock fight about who's right.
As funny as watching an atheist define what is, and isn’t anti-semitic?
Oof!
As funny as watching an atheist define what is, and isn’t anti-semitic?
top derail. 4 pages?
The traditional drumming found in Africa is actually of three different types. Firstly, a rhythm can represent an idea (or signal). Secondly it can repeat the accentual profile of a spoken utterance or thirdly it can simply be subject to musical laws.
Drum communication methods are not languages in their own right; they are based on actual natural languages. The sounds produced are conventionalized or idiomatic signals based on speech patterns. The messages are normally very stereotyped and context-dependent. They lack the ability to form new combinations and expressions.
In central and east Africa, drum patterns represent the stresses, syllable lengths and tone of the particular African language. In tone languages, where syllables are associated with a certain tone, some words are distinguished only by their suprasegmental profile. Therefore, syllable drum languages can often transfer a message using the tonal phonemes alone.
In certain languages, the pitch of each syllable is uniquely determined in relation to each adjacent syllable. In these cases, messages can be transmitted as rapid beats at the same speed as speech as the rhythm and melody both match the equivalent spoken utterance.
Misinterpretations can occur due to the highly ambiguous nature of the communication. This is reduced by context effects and the use of stock phrases. For example, in Jabo, most stems are monosyllabic. By using a proverb or honorary title to create expanded versions of an animal, person's name or object, the corresponding single beat can be replaced with a rhythmic and melodic motif representing the subject. In practice not all listeners understand all of the stock phrases; the drum language is understood only to the level of their immediate concern.
http://begin-english.ru/stati-na-angliiskom/drums-in-communication
Some context. But of course, as in all forms of communication - the irony is that the intent and context is interpreted not by the transmitter but the receiver. Am currently enjoying (sarcasm) the fourth consecutive year of familial estrangement owing to the ****ing grapevinedrumwhispers over spouse email to in-law. It was perceived by the receiver as an insult (an inversion of context and meaning, ie it was intended as support through a tough time) and then no amount of explanation would shift the wrong perception. So, the meaning of the communication was perfectly inverted and then used against the sender.
Once someone decides to take ‘offence’, they will often heavily invest in being ‘right’ and never, ever back down, neither have the humility or empathy to see that it is in fact they who are causing the harm and hurt. Or maybe they can see, and think ‘job done’. Who knows?
* Irony writ large! (As per OP)in spoken and written lamguage the misintepretation is often increased by using a stock phrase.
For instance, when I tried to moderate aforementioned family spat by suggesting that that the email in question had been subject to an ‘uncharitable interpretation’ - the response was much crying and an angry ‘I don’t want charity’. So you see, sometimes there is literally no way to escape the permanently offended unless you speak in ‘their language’. But if their ‘language’ is primarily emotional and skewed - then the effort becomes gargantuan and usually fruitless.
Sit tight and stick to your guns.
I’m not going to tell you why or even if it’s racist – I’m white, it wouldn’t really be appropriate even if I thought I knew. I’m suggesting things to think about as to why people might be upset by this use of language.
So the logical outcome of this is that as a white person, I will end up going around using offensive phrases (at least until I am informed about each individual, specific phrase by a black person) because apparently I have no way of knowing what is racist and what isn’t...... really?
Before you judge a man walk a mile in his shoes
Sexist expression that. I suggest using "before you judge a person walk a mile in their shoes".
before you judge a person walk a mile in their shoes”.
Discriminates against people in wheelchairs, that does.
So the logical outcome of this is that as a white person, I will end up going around using offensive phrases (at least until I am informed about each individual, specific phrase by a black person) because apparently I have no way of knowing what is racist and what isn’t…… really?
...and not just racist language - there's all kinds of ways in human interaction you can put your foot in it. I mean common sense and knowledge help a bit, as does being open to learning, but mainly just try being polite and saying sorry when you've got something wrong.
you can put your foot in it.
Amputeeist!
If we're doing it in a non-sexist way, does that mean we all have to potentially walk a mile in a pair of stiletto's?