[Closed] Is the manual gearbox dead?

sounds like you need a track car..

where else is

" (which is the opposite of what you want when trying to do a quick up shift at say 6krpm)."

needed

Nope, plenty of reasons manual gearboxes will be here for sometime yet.

Though do suspect once fully electric cars are commonplace that the experiance of using a manual gearbox becomes, well... boring.

Not yet but yes electric and hybrid may kill them off.

Judging solely by the threads you've started - have you ever considered joining a car forum?

I was wondering how many drivers under 40(?) had ever used a car with a manual choke the other day.

I suspect in 15 years time it'll be the same with manual gearboxes - "You had to choose what gear ratio the car was in? It couldnt; decide what was best for itself? Wierd."

Drove mostly auto's in Oz as they were the norm and nearly eery hire car was auto.

Though when I got back to the uk and my hand gripped the gear stick again I could feel myself grow an inch and the hairs on my chest thicken up as a real driving god... As I sat in traffic crawling along constantly doing annoying gear changes.

Please kill off the manual in most cars.

Thread title should be...

"Man disappointed with expensive car assumes it's because all cars must be shit and not just his one."

or

"When buyers remorse and cognitive dissonance collide"

Apparently autos are better for Larger vehicles and anyone towing.

round me the roads have been so sanitised that manual gearboxes are really not required.

As cars get smarter engine management systems even if you have a stick the computer will control everything so it’s a fake auto anyway...

The fact that a lot of cars come with manual and if auto is an option it is £1000+ extra would suggest manual is far from dead.  I like changing gear myself, I just can't be bothered with a clutch so drive autos but always in manual mode.

I drive minibuses around Harrogate, the auto boxes are a godsend but I'm pretty sure If they were manuals I could get more than 19mpg out of any of them.

My Mondeo manual box is silky smooth & I love it.

I'm spoilt ..I've got an S-tronic gearbox on one car which gives the option of auto , manual & flappy paddle manual ..as well as quickly changing to "sport" mode in auto with a short back shift on the gearstick ..I rarely change out of auto ..

I also have a manual Insignia (160 ) estate when I want a "real " driving experience ..lol..

I like driving both ..

I would love a track car but there are still instances when a 6krpm upshift is needed - 2nd-3rd when overtaking. Also - I think it's good for a car (as long as it's warmed up) to have a good old italian tune up and redline now and again. What's the point in that rev counter going to 7/8krpm if you're going to tickle it for its entire life?

Perchy - I don't assume all cars are shit.. I'm assuming a lot of new manual cars may be shit to drive compared to older ones. I am disappointed though..

I probably should just join Piston Heads and be done with it..

But where would I come to rant about people nearly knocking me off my bike on the way to work?

I recently spent an hour or three in 2 identical cars in a closed road environment. One was manual and the other was auto 'box. The auto was better. I like a manual and everything having a manual gearbox entails, I wanted to like the manual better but I couldn't.

I do believe that the manual box will be consigned to history.

Technology is transforming personal powered transportation and we should embrace the changes that are on the horizon.

Nickewen....On pistonheads ..should get a few choice responses 😁

scotroutes

Judging solely by the threads you’ve started – have you ever considered joining a car forum?

Oh, there's plenty enough petrol heads on the STW to keep this stuff going!

In my recent experience, Auto was awesome, but when there is a problem its an expensive one or terminal.  In a manual again now and miss the auto every now and again when crawling in traffic.

These days a car is simply a tool for getting from A to B.  Whatever you can get to make it easier and more relaxing is a bonus.  I'll never go back to a manual box having had my DSG Focus for two years now.

 but there are still instances when a 6krpm upshift is needed – 2nd-3rd when overtaking.

Maybe you need to look at how you got into those situations ...

An auto will hold revs and drop as needed.

Having owned an Audi A6 3L V6 for 4 years with the 'famed' Audi DSG box, I couldn't wait to get back to a manual. However my latest car is a sedentary Volvo XC60 and whilst the manual box is beautifully smooth, I do think I would be quite happy in the auto version as the car doesn't exactly encourage brisk driving.

but there are still instances when a 6krpm upshift is needed – 2nd-3rd when overtaking.

If I floored my auto BMW it woudl do just this, change down a few gears immediately and then hold a gear to the red line before changing.

Just do clutchless shifts, much faster once you get the hang of it.

With more and more cars going turbo or twin turbo there is less and less need to drop gears due to torque. With hybrid electric engines torque will be king.

piha - may I ask what car it was that you tested please? My car is a ZF8 Auto M135 and after 3 years of ownership was thinking of testing the manual version but after getting my wife's 3 series I'm absolutely certain the auto was the correct choice for that car.

Good point about problems with autos. I do wonder when my 1 series gets a bit long in the tooth will it bite me with a several £1,000 repair bill for the complicated gearbox..

Aye - plenty of petrol heads / driving gods on here I reckon..

Mike - what situations? There's no situation - if I'm overtaking I'm not going to leave it in 6th and crawl past someone. Just as I'm not going to leave it in 2nd and smash into the limiter.. therefore a swift and smooth upshift from 2nd to 3rd is required (without a horrible lurch).

Good point about problems with autos. I do wonder when my 1 series gets a bit long in the tooth will it bite me with a several £1,000 repair bill for the complicated gearbox..

I would expect that the gearbox on a modern auto should do 150k without servicing and will be well above 200k before there are any issues. Last three I had were 320k, 180k and 140k without any major issues. I do suspect that how it is driven would also have an impact.

i would say when they need fixing it is expensive... might get cheaper as more cars switch

Having read tales of woe regarding Dual Mass Flywheels, clutches etc on modern cars I can't see an auto box having any 'wear and tear' items that will cause as much predictable expense.

Good points re the longevity of the autos vs some of the expensive wear and tear items in a manual. There are stories of manual golf R's chewing through clutches in 20 odd k miles.. Maybe the extra £1-1500 on the auto pays off in the long run.

Wear depends on the type of auto box.  DSG ones have clutches just like regular boxes and they need much more frequent (and expensive) fluid changes.

I think it's certainly circling the drain.

Old school auto boxes were heavy, slow, ponderous things with limited ratios - they made the auto version of cars slower and more thirsty.

But now, they all seem to have a silly amount of gears, more than even Jenson Hamilton wannabes could twiddle about whilst they're using a 'dab of oppo' ( think Porsche have got a 7sp manual though). They're more efficient which means they're better on emissions and actually a bit quicker usually which is all-important for Golf Club bragging rights.

People might be surprised how many manuals got chopped recently because of the latest round of emissions regs - I don't think you can buy a Golf R manual any more.

I would expect that the gearbox on a modern auto should do 150k without servicing and will be well above 200k before there are any issues. Last three I had were 320k, 180k and 140k without any major issues. I do suspect that how it is driven would also have an impact.

Indeed.

I owned 2 530d touring sports that both had a couple of hundred ‘000 miles on them, the auto box on both was as good as the day I drove em’ out of the showroom..

I would expect that the gearbox on a modern auto should do 150k

That's what I thought.

Until the electrics pack failed on the wife's 320CLK (7 speed) at 68K miles & you can't just stick an electrics pack in, you have to match it to a new valve body as well.

£1800 later.......

Mind you it was an 06 so not modern (anymore)

Anyone’s DSG (Audi) mechtronic switcher  failed yet ???

 There are stories of drivers of manual golf R’s chewing through clutches in 20 odd k miles..

FTFY 🙂

I have a 1972 Airportable Land Rover which purports to have a manual box.  In reality you stir the stick around (a bit like stirring porridge) to see what comes up.  If you’re lucky you get the gear you wanted....😊

I was wondering how many drivers under 40(?) had ever used a car with a manual choke the other day.

I retro-fit as manual choke to all my modern cars. I find it really makes the first few minutes of each journey come alive. It also gives me something to hang a take-away curry from.

I find it really makes the first few minutes of each journey come alive.

It'll be a 29" choke then. 🙂

The fact that a lot of cars come with manual and if auto is an option it is £1000+ extra would suggest manual is far from dead.

Seems have to have an impact on emissions, too.  When I was last looking for a new car the manual was always the greener (and less spendy on tax) option.

My BMW dealer that the next gen 3 series will only offer 1 model with a manual box.

Hardley suprising as the ZF 8sp box is so compelling.

Not yet but yes electric and hybrid may kill them off

this, but not may, will

"There are stories of drivers of manual golf R’s chewing through clutches in 20 odd k miles.."

isnt that because they are using the launch control at every zebra crossing ?

Manual Golf R's don't have a electronic launch control in the same way as the DSG ones do. If you go on line to see a video of DSG equipped R against a manual you might be surprised how much slower they are as a result-getting the cluch slip right is a nack most people don't want to practice if they have any mechanical sympathy and it's their own car. The manuals also tend to bog down between first and second

i still would have the manual every time

I’ve got a DSG Golf and I like it.  What do I win?

also, re expensive fluid changes, they’re £80 every 40k Miles.  Not that bad really.

I don’t even need to use the clutch on my motorbike. Why on earth would anyone still faff around with fully manual changes in a car??

rachel

I was a die hard manual only driver till I spec my 3series with the 8 speed auto.  It’s a joy to drive and with the additional manual mode can be great fun too although I barely every use it now. My only niggle is in trying to get the thing to stay in 2nd or 3rd when driving in snow  I think the only way of doing it is ironically to put the gear box in full sport mode.

I think it is lower in the emissions too compared to the manual.

Lots of big words here and chat about experience.

I like my auto as it makes it easier to drink my travel mug of tea whilst I'm driving to work. That is my primary reason for having an auto.

Autotboxes never change gear when you want, they can't predict your intentions to make progress or if you're wanting to drive economicaly.

I find auto to to be sluggish and frustrating, and quite often over reving when it should be shifting up a gear.

they can’t predict your intentions to make progress or if you’re wanting to drive economicaly

Which is why so many modern cars have a sport/comfort/eco switch that changes how the box (and suspension,. steering, roll bars etc) behave - you signal in advance what sort of operational priority you want the box to use(early change, late change etc) and it does the rest.

Autotboxes never change gear when you want

BMW's adapt.

I like my auto as it makes it easier to drink my travel mug of tea whilst I’m driving to work. That is my primary reason for having an auto.

Very honest, and likewise but also because I find it much more relaxing to waft about the place with an air of nonchalance at my age.

Which is why so many modern cars have a sport/comfort/eco switch

Which is an unessasary distraction to fiddle with a touch screen whilst driving .. Just use a manual gearbox properly.

must say every modern gear box i drove drives fine.

historically they were as mattyfez says.

id have an auto all day long right now BUT they are rare in the car i wanted so ended up with a manual .

Autotboxes never change gear when you want, they can’t predict your intentions to make progress or if you’re wanting to drive economicaly.

Not quite true. The Porsche PDK does all of this very very well. The car will predict your driving style, for example if you brake hard into a corner the engine adjusts itself to harder driving, stamp on the accelerator and again the car sharpens things up. It does this faster than you or I could react too. It's fair to add that this is an expensive & clever gearbox today but the technology will trickle down. Additionally, technology will only make autos quicker and smarter.

bloody touch screens...

Which is why so many modern cars have a sport/comfort/eco switch

Which is an unessasary distraction to fiddle with a touch screen whilst driving ..

My very average Hyundai Santa Fe does with a single button by my right hand. It is not fiddly or a distraction.

Or you could just learn how to drive . .

Until cars are fully automated, automatic gearboxes are nothing more than a horrible annoying distraction.

automatic gearboxes are nothing more than a horrible annoying distraction.

Do elaborate.

Until cars are fully automated, automatic gearboxes are nothing more than a horrible annoying distraction.

How can a gear box with less required user input ever be described as a distraction?

Autotboxes never change gear when you want, they can’t predict your intentions to make progress or if you’re wanting to drive economicaly.

And somewhere in the electronic brain there is a CPU rolling it's eyes every time you drive....

Do elaborate.

I thought I'd already elaborated lol!

They change gear at the wrong revs unless you press a button for short changes or press a button for long changes .. Then you have to press a button again to go back to the previous ... It's just a pain in the ass compared to a proper gear box, not to mention the added complexity and expense.

Don't get me wrong I'm looking forward to fully automated cars, but we're currently at an awkward half way house with human input being retarded by computer control.

They change gear at the wrong revs unless you press a button for short changes or press a button for long changes .. Then you have to press a button again to go back to the previous … It’s just a pain in the ass compared to a proper gear box

So you press a button at the start of a 5 mile drive on country roads and the same button again when you get to town or on a motorway and that;s a pain in the ass compared with changing gear every few hundred metres (country road) or every 10 metres (round town)?

They change gear at the wrong revs unless you press a button for short changes or press a button for long changes .. Then you have to press a button again to go back to the previous

No you do not have to press any buttons, you really have to try Porsche's PDK before you make that claim. It is very very clever and very very good. I've been lucky enough to have tried a PDK and a manual back to back, PDK works very well, it's faster than a manual and it's safer as you can keep both hands on the steering wheel. I think manual can be good fun though and quite engaging.

Autos dont' change gear at the wrong moment in normal driving. If you think you know better than the engineers whose job it is to design these systems then I'd suggest it's you who has the wrong idea of when to change, not them.

Sometimes you get an upshift in a corner, but not very often, and it's not that big of a deal.  If you're boy racering then you've got manual override. If you use that all the time then don't, and drive normally.

As a mild travel sickness sufferer I'm always relieved when someone has to give me a lift and they've got an auto. Most people are far less smooth than the computer.

So pushing a button occasionally is worse than moving a mechanical lever every few minutes.

Yep that arguement works.

I also have manual option on my car. I just shift the auto lever over to the left and I can shift up and down just like a manual. Not groundbreaking tech, is this not pretty much standard? Anyway, I never use it  though as the auto performs this function better than I do.

8sp Autos are becoming de rigeur on small petrol/Diesel engines vehicles from city cars to 5/7seat SUVs.

The future is here.

So pushing a button occasionally is worse than moving a mechanical lever every few minutes.

Yep that arguement works.

Well you'd need to define what you mean by changing gear 'ocasionaly' and how may mins is a 'few'.

Just get a taxi lol!

Mine very very rarely gets a change wrong, infact most of the time the only way I can tell its changed gear is by watching the rev counter move.  I can put it in sport and change gear manually but I never bother as the car always does it better than I can.

Same here - 8 speed auto in a Jag XF and it really is superb

not really mattyfez as i drive both reasonably regularly and am not the one suffering issues.

its either a shit car issue or a shit driver issue - as shown by the number of people saying well my auto works just fine.

ps it was change gearbox mode occasionally - your unlikely to need to press the button every shift the box makes - youll wear it out . but you will certainly be changing gear with the lever more often than your pushing that button.

They change gear at the wrong revs unless....

.... one has flappy paddles.

  I like changing gear myself, I just can’t be bothered with a clutch so drive autos but always in manual mode.

You do know that you don't have to use the clutch with a manual gearbox, don't you?

You do know that you don’t have to use the clutch with a manual gearbox, don’t you?

There will be people under the age of 30 who's heads are spinning right now...

Would this be the right to introduce double-declutching as the predecessor to DSG?  😀

My big bugbear is the lack of a proper handbrake in many modern cars, just some stoopid little button that decides for itself whether you should be using it. No wonder seemingly everyone just holds their cars on the footbrake all the damn time.

Just what the F is wrong with a lever and a cable? I simply do not understand what was so undesirable about such a simple, effective and reliable engineering solution.

So how many manual box lovers know their engines RPM for peak power and peak torque? without looking it up! I bet less than 10%...probably less than 5%. If you don't know those two figures your claims that you can do better than an auto box are false. And before anyone comes up with it the red line is not the point of peak power...that is a safety limit, not a performance limit. And even if you did know then there is nothing more distracting than driving with your eyes spending more time on the rev counter than the road when trying to maximise performance or economy.

Got a lowly Peugeot 308 hire car right now, haven't driven an auto for years - wow flappy paddles, 8gears, sport & eco at the touch of a button, haven't dared try manual mode otherwise the roads of Corsica are likely to see yet another hire car launched off a cliff 🤔

Just what the F is wrong with a lever and a cable?

<p style="text-align: left;">We've done this before, but I'll do it again.</p>
1) People have died accidentally knocking their car into D or forgetting to take it out of D then getting out of their cars.  My wife's aunt saw this happen to some old lady.  Sure it was her fault, but she still got dragged under the wheels and killed.  On my car, if you open the door when it's in drive it puts the handbrake on.

2) I've lived on a hill for 11 years, and in that time three cars have lost their handbrakes and rolled down the hill, once towards my kids playing at the bottom of the road.  This can't happen with the electronic one on my car due to the way it's designed. Yeah, you should leave it in gear and/or turn your wheels towards the kerb, but people don't do they?

3) The electronic brake is always fully on, you can't half put it on.

You do know that you don’t have to use the clutch with a manual gearbox, don’t you?

Just how do you pull away from a standstill then?

Not quite true. The Porsche PDK does all of this very very well. The car will predict your driving style, for example if you brake hard into a corner the engine adjusts itself to harder driving, stamp on the accelerator and again the car sharpens things up. It does this faster than you or I could react too. It’s fair to add that this is an expensive & clever gearbox today but the technology will trickle down. Additionally, technology will only make autos quicker and smarter.

You know its basically a VW DSG right?

J2unfit2ride

Just how do you pull away from a standstill then?

Ah, the skills that have been lost in the modern era... 🙂

Turn the engine off when you stop. To take off, put in 1st gear, start engine in gear.

Or, if you have a passenger, stop in neutral, passenger jumps out and pushes when it's time to go (only need to get it rolling) and crunch into 1st. Passengers jumps back in.

My big bugbear is the lack of a proper handbrake in many modern cars, just some stoopid little button that decides for itself whether you should be using it. No wonder seemingly everyone just holds their cars on the footbrake all the damn time.

Works perfectly for me on the ones I have. Just gives you hill start control to pull away. Not sure what the issue is.

On my Golf, if the auto hold on the electronic handbrake is on, the brakelights are on even when you take your foot off the pedal and only go off as you pull away. So it looks like you have your foot on the brake but it is actually the electronics