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I only ask your opinions because an old girl in a bungalow behind our house flies it from a pole in her garden, and whilst it's always struck me as a wee bit odd, I never thought any more about it until one of our friends commented on how 'offensive' the flag was. Now, maybe it was a childhood of watching Dukes of Hazzard, but it holds no sinister connotations for me. I understand that the slavery issue is where the suggestions of racism come from, but I also suspect that it would be simplistic to reduce a complex and huge world event as the American Civil War to a single issue.
Thoughts?
Neil Young seemed to think so, wrote some songs about it. Lynard Skynard wrote this in reply.
Ask her why she flies it perhaps?
It is a symbol of a struggle to retain a racist state.
Much like the South African flag under Apartheid - I can't see flying that as being seen as anything but a provocative act.
Having said that a lot of people seem to just see it as a cosy symbol of country music and good old boys making hooch in the woods, so who am I to say.
I've always viewed it as a status of being proud of being from the southern states, perhaps more proud of being southern than of being American.
In fact, it could maybe be argued that the assumption that it indicates the person flying it is in itself quite racist. Maybe.
It's inherently racist in the US IMO - if a large majority of African Americans find it racially offensive, which they do and for good reason, then it's clearly a racist symbol.
If it's over here you're talking about then I really have no idea. hard to see anyone having any sort of visceral reaction to the confederate flag so it's a symbol bereft of meaning on that level. Quite a few people will know of it's history in the US but translating that over here seems like racial Munchausen's syndrome by proxy.
You could always ask her what her reasons are for flying the flag - it's possible she's not an arsehole (would be rare IME of people who feel compelled to fly a flag on their residence)
It is a symbol of a struggle to retain a racist state.
The whole state was racist? Nah, I think it was a few politicians that bent to pressure from some vocal racists that tarnished the flag. It doesn't mean that every one from that state subscribed to their ideas, and nor should it mean people who previously had been proud to fly their flag should no longer be allowed to without being stereotyped asap redneck racist.
Drive by truckers did a double album on the subject. Southern rock opera.
...slavery issue...
What, that slavery started by races that had never seen or heard of a 'white man'? 😉
"nor should it mean people who previously had been proud to fly their flag should no longer be allowed to without being stereotyped asap redneck racist"
I'll think you'll find it might.
It's like saying the Swastika was devalued by a few nutters in authority so it's ok to fly that outside your house.
Hmmm, good point.
I believe in letting people express their opinions. I don't believe in silencing people who disagree with a gay lifestyle, or who believe a woman should work at home, etc etc. It's their opinion. What's a free speech society meant to mean if people take offence so easily and rally to form what we refer to as a set of PC rules?
It's like saying the Swastika was devalued by a few nutters in authority so it's ok to fly that outside your house.
But only if you're over sensitive.
If the stars n stripes is offensive to many Muslims does that mean anyone flying it is racist?
Over the 16 or so years I've been visiting family in the US I've met a few people who have it on their trucks, jackets, hats, whatever. For a lot of them it's this faux rebel thing and they don't really think about the racist connotations. Some, however, are racists and some are just not really thinking. It's a bit of a strange thing that some people refer to it as a rebel flag like the south was oppressed and rose up rather than one side of a war. As such it holds a romanticism to some people that really doesn't exist except in their heads.
I'd ask the lady. You might find out she's got some odd, but harmless ideas. Or you might find out that she's a bigot (as I found with a flatmate from Arizona once but that's a different story).
no, because being offended isn't being a victim of racism?
there are no doubt inequalities in the US but it's mostly no longer institutionally racist. The stars and stripes is a symbol of equality within the country, not inequality.
the confederate flag was a symbol of retaining a society in which it was legal for one human to own another.
When a black woman in one of the southern states had a baby and didn't want it to live as a slave she killed it. The people in the North wanted her done for murder, she was actually tried for 'theft from her employer' in the south as the baby "wasn't hers".
The confedrate flag is the symbol of the mindset that said a baby was property, not a life.
No I do not think that the flag is inherently racist in the same way that the flags of the UK, Belgium, Portugal, Spain, France etc are not inherently racist despite being associated with racist acts in the past.
The pride in being a Southerner remains, for sure, but I think attitudes have moved on a lot fortunately.
If the stars n stripes is offensive to many Muslims does that mean anyone flying it is racist?
Ooh, I like that angle... It could certainly be heading that way.
I'm certainly not asking her. She's already revealed herself to be a bit of a plonker from an entirely unrelated interaction...
It was the EDL poster in her front window, wasn't it ?
mostly no longer institutionally racist.
Except the police and judicial systems? And the education system?
They did elect a president who was born in another country though 😉
who's probably a closet muslimist, just like that Brodie chap of off homeland... 😯wwaswas - Member
They did elect a president who was born in another country though
thm +1
Lol, and very nearly impeached him for it. And they have systematically disenfranchised whole swathes of black voters for dubious reasons ahead of elections for at least the last 15 years.
I think it is a flag that was used by racist organisations in the past of the Us of A. It was stolen/used by the KKK and personally associate it with red necks who may or may not be racist
Its meaning, like any symbol, has changed over time. I think it is representative of a slavery loving racist south [ which has other attributes and that is a simplification]so I would tend towards it being racist - in that i would think about it but not know for sure- a similar attitude was when seeing the England flag flying, which is a shame. It is good to see attempts, via sports,being made to reclaim it from the racists. I worked n a racially divided area and the England flag and the Star and crescent [Islam symbol] tended to indicate the most extreme views in either community.
For me , without knowing the person I would wonder but not know.
More importantly why would anyone in the UK fly it?
Not remotely relevant to the debate, but an interesting fact from Wikipedia: the "first legally recognised slave in Colonial America" was owned by a "free black colonist".
I spent a long time in the deep south (New Orleans) and was told that those who sport the "rebel" flag are considered good old boys, they're part of a mind set; look out for each other and yes support racism but not necessarily the KKK. they don't consider them selves racist but are not open to equal rights, inter race marriages etc.
Infact given my mixed race appearance i was amazed to be accepted so readily when working with them (they thought i was Creole!!!).
No I do not think that the flag is inherently racist in the same way that the flags of the UK, Belgium, Portugal, Spain, France etc are not inherently racist despite being associated with racist acts in the past.The pride in being a Southerner remains, for sure, but I think attitudes have moved on a lot fortunately.
How do you feel about the use of a Swastika, just out of interest? I mean, it's just a 3000 year old symbol, right?
I believe in letting people express their opinions. I don't believe in silencing people who disagree with a gay lifestyle, or who believe a woman should work at home, etc etc. It's their opinion. What's a free speech society meant to mean if people take offence so easily and rally to form what we refer to as a set of PC rules?
No-one has ever suggested she shouldn't be allowed to fly the flag, so I guess your 'PC gone mad' alarm went off by mistake.
V8ninety, I [i]think[/i] you'll find that Hawaii is an American state, not another country. Or are you a Truther, who actually believes Obama was born in Kenya?
It's like saying the Swastika was devalued by a few nutters in authority so it's ok to fly that outside your house.
Sadly true; the Swastika is a holy symbol still, to a great many faiths around the world, like Buddhist, Hindu, Shinto, it is an ancient creation symbol to First Nations people in America, and was an early Christian cross as well. It's a real shame that a symbol of peace and faith, that's thousands of years old, should become effectively unusable because one racist political organisation hijacked it because of its 'Aryan' association sixty years ago.
The Aryan thing is ironic, as Aryans are from the Indian sub-continent.
FWIW, because of its use by many different faiths all over the world, and my own personal beliefs, which are a sort of Buddhist/Pantheistic mixture, I wear a small gold swastika, and have done for over thirty years, but, for very obvious reasons, nobody ever sees it. The possibilities of a serious miss-understanding are clearly very very likely! 😆
I just had a thought (and not often THAT happens)...
Surely nothing is
there has to be intent.inherently racist
You can see inherent racism in many objects if you're of that mindset and try really really hard 🙄
[quote=CountZero ]V8ninety, I think you'll find that Hawaii is an American state, not another country. Or are you a Truther, who actually believes Obama was born in Kenya?
It's like saying the Swastika was devalued by a few nutters in authority so it's ok to fly that outside your house.
Sadly true; the Swastika is a holy symbol still, to a great many faiths around the world, like Buddhist, Hindu, Shinto, it is an ancient creation symbol to First Nations people in America, and was an early Christian cross as well. It's a real shame that a symbol of peace and faith, that's thousands of years old, should become effectively unusable because one racist political organisation hijacked it because of its 'Aryan' association sixty years ago.
The Aryan thing is ironic, as Aryans are from the Indian sub-continent.
FWIW, because of its use by many different faiths all over the world, and my own personal beliefs, which are a sort of Buddhist/Pantheistic mixture, I wear a small gold swastika, and have done for over thirty years, but, for very obvious reasons, nobody ever sees it. The possibilities of a serious miss-understanding are clearly very very likely! But not all swastikas are black, on a white circle/red background. 🙂 If you were adopting that then some folk might raise more than an eyebrow.
midlifecrashes - Member
Neil Young seemed to think so, wrote some songs about it. Lynard Skynard wrote this in reply.www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwWUOmk7wO0
Went to a Lynard Skynard concert in the Albert Hall once with the bread knife, there emblazoned across the backdrop was the Southern Cross, so we're enjoying the concert when she observes the distinct lack of a single black face in the entire hall, so I guess some folks might think so, or they just don't like Lynard Skynard.
Obviously there can be nothing racist about an inanimate object like a flag, but the intent is clearly there in my view.
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Is this logo inherently racist btw?
Or this polo shirt?
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Since the freedom of slaves was only eventually done as a way of having a potential army of 3-4 million behind your enemies lines,I guess that DOES make the stars and stripes just as racist.Having lived in Georgia the Southern Cross still has racist overtones, despite the fact it was originally the flag of the states who wanted to cede from the union,not all of whom permitted slavery. IMO;any quaint johnny reb angle is outweighed by the fact it is a rallying symbol for white supremists.
Interestingly (for a history geek)the North didn't give a crap about slaves rights,they only wanted a level playing field when it came to labour costs, Lincoln also favoured repatriation of the ex-slaves after the civil war. To me that blurs the line a little as to who were the good guys and the bad in antebellum America.
Oi! Turn up your irony alert device a bit, man!V8ninety, I think you'll find that Hawaii is an American state, not another country. Or are you a Truther, who actually believes Obama was born in Kenya?
look at it from a different perspective, is the butchers apron inherently racist
Maybe the old dear was in 'The dukes of Hazzard' and would like the world to know about it. 💡
i find the union jack quiet offensive, for it has components of the english and scottish flags but over looked the welsh flag.
fortunately i dont think anyone should be bothered about what i find offensive
Inherently, it says "I'm a redneck short of a few chromosomes. Do not try and reproduce with me."
there is a fruit-loop who flies random flags on a daily basis, sometimes countries,some naval, some just bizarre -- maybe he hankers after a routine ....
on the road between abergele and llandulas, mock fort type place..
jonah tonto - Member
i find the union jack quiet offensive, for it has components of the english and scottish flags but over looked the welsh flag.
The Union Jack signifies the union of England, Scotland and Ireland, [b]not[/b] Wales.
If your in the UK and not an american then it's safe to say they are probably a fan of country music and pick ups.
In the end it's a little sad.
Ref the stats and stripes being racist, a couple of years ago in Bath a local counceller preserved that the English St George's flag be taken down from the local police station as ethnic minoreties could find it racially offensive. It's a small step from that...
As for the good old girl, bet she had a fling with a texan cowboy once and still likes to rember being ridden like a wild mustang 😉
jonah tonto - Member
i find the union jack quiet offensive, for it has components of the english and scottish flags but over looked the welsh flag.
The Union Jack signifies the union of England, Scotland and Ireland, not Wales.
interesting. how come Welsh athletes have to stand under it when they win a medal then?
Because Wales was annexed by England in the 1500's and, at that point, ceased to be a country in its own right.
Interesting that you should be "offended" but you don't know your own history.
Now, I find this phrase racist...
African Americans
There are "African Americans", "Native Americans" and "Hispanic Americans", but no "European Americans".
Why should one ethnic group, in one country, have a monopoly on the simple term "American" when it should apply to the entire population of two continents ?
Oh, and as for the flag woman, she's probably a Line Dancer. Best avoided.
neighbour is annoying, get over it or stroke yer chin hmmn. Or live on planet Zod!
Does she wear a T-shirt like this?
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or have a CB radio in her car?
neighbour is annoying, get over it or stroke yer chin hmmn. Or live on planet Zod!
Eh? Who said she was annoying? Flag doesn't bother me, I loved the dukes of hazzard as a boy.
Unless there's a burning cross in her back garden, I wouldn't be too bothered about a Confederate flag.
Flag-flying of all types tends to tell you a bit about the person concerned, like the retired UKIP types who have a flagpole and a Union Flag on their lawn, but it doesn't automatically put them in the lowest group.
It's like saying the Swastika was devalued by a few nutters in authority
Well, it actually was. For many thousands of years it meant many things to many peoples and religions.
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007453
There are "African Americans", "Native Americans" and "Hispanic Americans", but no "European Americans".
I'm sure I've heard of Italian Americans and Irish Americans
deadlydarcy - Member
Inherently, it says "I'm a redneck short of a few chromosomes. Do not try and reproduce with me."
the best so far !
As for the good old girl, bet she had a fling with a texan cowboy once and still likes to rember being ridden like a wild mustang
Were this the case she would be much more likely to fly the 'lone star' state flag of Texas.
Texas was a somewhat reluctant member of the confederacy - it's probably fair to sya that it wanted [i]out[/i] of the Union more than it wanted [i]in[/i] to the Confederacy.
Is the confederate flag inherently racist?
I asked the same question several years ago on an American motorcycle forum.
The response was that in some parts of the South, displaying a confederate flag even as a car sticker was an act of provocation
All down to context I think. Doing a monkey impression at the zoo to get a laugh from the kids isn't a racist act. Doing it at a football match when a black player has the ball, is.
I've never thought of it a racist, more nostalgic in a Dukes of Hazard way - I'll join the camp that think she probably just likes line dancing or something
It is a flag flown by racists...but not necessarily a racist flag
There used to be a guy who had a volvo estate car in glasgow done up like the general lee with confederate flags on it...he also had a personal reg with KKK on it so i suspect it wasnt just a shit tribute to the dukes of hazzard!
I asked the same question several years ago on an American motorcycle forum.The response was that in some parts of the South, displaying a confederate flag even as a car sticker was an act of provocation.
I worked for a short while about 20miles outside Atlanta, GA. The 'good ole boys' there all had rifles crossed in the back window of their trucks in the same shape as the flag of the confederacy. I was told that:
a) this was because it was an offence to display the flag itself
b) they all had the flag tacked up as a roof lining in their trucks anyway.
I'm sure I've heard of Italian Americans and Irish Americans
I wasn't trying to write an exhaustive list.
I just wondered how many generations of a family have to live in the USA before they are entitled to simply be called "American" without having attention drawn to the ethnicity of their ascendants.
Assuming Anglo Saxon is the default ethnic group for Americans, unless otherwise specified, seems more racist to me than describing a black person as black.
Is Anglo Saxon not the most common group anyway?
And there are also Americans whose families have been there for 300 odd years, as opposed to people who consider themselves Irish American who might have been there for 'only' 80 or 100 years.
Re the flag, it means nothing in itself. Some people have used it as a symbol for certain things. You cannot fly it without risking other people assuming that you are supporting those things. You have to be aware of what associations other people might conclude if you don't want to be seriously misunderstood. As per the gold swastika mentioned previously. So it's safest to just leave it.
transapp - Member
Ref the stats and stripes being racist, a couple of years ago in Bath a local counceller preserved that the English St George's flag be taken down from the local police station as ethnic minoreties could find it racially offensive. It's a small step from that...
I'm not sure what you mean by this - can you clarify pls?
I was told that:
a) this was because it was an offence to display the flag itself
b) they all had the flag tacked up as a roof lining in their trucks anyway.
It's not illegal to display the confederate flag in the US. The US is not Germany, where it is illegal to display the swastika (in a non-artistic, academic, historical etc context). The confederate flag forms part of the Mississippi state flag.
I just wondered how many generations of a family have to live in the USA before they are entitled to simply be called "American" without having attention drawn to the ethnicity of their ascendants.
Assuming Anglo Saxon is the default ethnic group for Americans, unless otherwise specified, seems more racist to me than describing a black person as black.
You've got it backwards. "African-American" is a term adopted by African-Americans to preserve identity, not foisted upon them by whites to keep them out. (The terms used by exclusionist whites aren't that euphemistic). The purpose is to reject the idea that "American" is a neutral identity that everyone can or should fit into, and/or to say that assimilation into supposedly neutral "American" is desirable. So when you say:
Assuming Anglo Saxon is the default ethnic group for Americans, unless otherwise specified, seems more racist to me than describing a black person as black.
that's exactly the reason why many people don't feel the "American" cap fits.
A similar position is also true of many others that are hyphenated Americans. It's not a bad thing - the more fluid, subtle, nuanced and complicated identity is, the (generally) the better imho.
And the other good news is, of course, it's not your and my job to decide what other people want to call themselves. It's up to everyone to decide how they identify themselves.
Race is a very nuanced subject in the US but it's a topic that many British people express strong opinions about based on ignorance and prejudice. Which is surprising, because it's a topic that usually people are so keen to approach with an open mind... 😉
I think a lot of you need to go and read some more american history!
especially the build up to the civil war and the aftermath.
Slavery was a tiny part of what the war was about.
The confederate flag as I believe, is a symbol of their struggle against oppression for the people of the south.
They didn't want to be dictated to by the north who they felt had a different view on life that was far too regimented and constrictive.
This I can only assume is where it receives it's rebel connotations, this and the fact that Southerners were known by union troops as "Johnny Rebs".
also, for those believing the north wasn't racist, find out about a man named Quantrill and "the red legs".
Many slaves found themselves worse off after the war too as landowners struggled to make things pay without the slave workforce.
You've got it backwards. "African-American" is a term adopted by African-Americans to preserve identity, not foisted upon them by whites to keep them out.
I was aware it was the preferred term used by those it applies to, which is why I find it ironic.
I'm English and I used to live in Wales with a Welsh grrl.
If I had stayed and we had had a child, I would find it offensive if that child, and that child's descendants, were forever known as "English Welsh".
They didn't want to be dictated to by the north who they felt had a different view on life that was far too regimented and constrictive.
True, but the North were trying to dictate on the issue of slavery, no? So a war of principles, but a war of DIFFERENT principles on each side...
also, for those believing the north wasn't racist
Well, in all fairness, there's being racist and there's being pro-slavery.. a bit different!
Molgrips, the whole south wasn't pro slavery.
In fact most people fought for their own personal reasons.
There were many fueds and vendettas settled during the war.
For most the political unrest was a catalyst to get some revenge on someone.
I know the South wasn't all pro slavery, hence my post. The South was fighting for self determination.
The confederate stars & bars is still part of the Mississippi state flag. Not surprisingly it's controversial. There was a move to change it a few years back, but it was voted out by about a 2/3 majority. IIRC slavery remained on the Mississippi statute book until about the 1990s.
You could claim Barack Obama was born under the Union flag - its part of the Hawaii state flag.
I'll get my anorak.
Swamp boy Huh?
Beauregard malitia Regiment Louisiana by any chance were you? 😉
Nope, but I do have connections down there.
I don't believe you're the real Yoda either, your syntax is too good. 😉
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I was aware it was the preferred term used by those it applies to, which is why I find it ironic.
I'm English and I used to live in Wales with a Welsh grrl.
If I had stayed and we had had a child, I would find it offensive if that child, and that child's descendants, were forever known as "English Welsh".
Why is it ironic? What would be ironic (well, tragic) would be to throw off hundreds of years of oppression and then immediately abandon your identity to be subsumed into the identity of your oppressor.
If you would be offended by it, you'd have to persuade your child to identify themselves in a different way.