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I was very anti independence during the last referendum. I thought the Yes argument was weak, based on flimsy economic assumptions, silly auld enemy hang-ups and an idealistic view of self governance (tinged with a hint of racism). However, one of the main arguments from Westminster was that staying part of UK was the only way to remain within the EU.
Given that this basic promise has now been broken quite catastrophically, even I find myself asking why we would want to remain part of the UK. If EU membership was on the cards I would strongly consider supporting independence.
Does the current Brexit position mean a Independence referendum and leave vote is inevitable?
A move overseas has never felt quite so tempting as it does right now......
Bit premature.
Brexit isn’t even an inevitable outcome at this point
Nope, still need the agreement of Westminster to enable it. That'll be tough to achieve cause they'll just be stone faced about it for the foreseeable.
If the snp are thinking of udi or the concept of tearing up treaties, well I hope they enjoy their time in Belgium or barlinnie.
Far point, as much as I would like the whole thing to collapse into stains of history lets assume we do leave EU with some sort of deal which is probably the most likely outcome. What then for Scotland?
Having seen some of the reporting on Ireland in the MSM, and indeed some of the inane questions posed to calm, knowledgeable Irish politicians by BBC interviewers, I very much “get” the idea of Scottish Independence more than I did before.
I’d say the best chance of it is for the snp to do a dup and hold the balance of power at Westminster, until then I think it’s all just bluster.
Personally I don’t think it’s the right time (amazingly i agree with may there 😆 ). I think a 50%+1 scenario would be a shit show. I’d rather wait ten/twenty years and aim for at least 65%. That way it’s then indisputable.
The concept of a supermajority for something like this is the most wise route I think.
Bit premature.
Brexit isn’t even an inevitable outcome at this point
This.
With Westminster refusing it, then not a chance. The SNP can ask all they like, but with the current knock on issues of a referendum on independence from Europe, I cannot imagine any Westminster government agreeing to another referendum for Scotland.
I think a 50%+1
I wonder though if that super majority could be found now? People like me, very firm No voters now thinking again..
The people are best served by a power/democracy as close to them as possible. London may be physically closer but Europe is closer in attitudes and aspirations, as per the regional referendum differences.
Bit premature.
Brexit isn’t even an inevitable outcome at this point
There seems to be a lot paranoid views at the moment.
If you want to become Scottish, then that’s a choice that should be made irrespective of any Brexit deal decisions that aren’t even mooted or any evidence to support them.
If you want to be Scottish today, go ahead sure they’ll welcome you with open arms.
There is a real conundrum in this
A significant % yes vote also want out of the EU. A significant number of SNP voters voted NO. Some NO voters have now moved to YES to remain in the EU. A similar number have moved the other way. Polls have moved a little towards yes and in a campaign I am sure it would move further to YES but would it be enough? I am far from certain but I think it likely and itss obvious that after brexit then iScotland would be welcomed into the EU.
As for holding a poll. Westminster assent makes it much easier but its by no means essential as international law covers this. What would be essential tho is the support of other parties in scotland to holding a referendum if Westminster plays hardball as if the other parties boycott a poll then it would not be seen as legitimate under international law
All IMO
Scottish independence has been inevitable for the last 20 years. It just takes a while for people to realise this.
Personally I'm in favour of breaking the whole UK up post Brexit and making it into a series of small Fiefdoms and Principalities based on county boundaries...
If we're going to do division and in-fighting lets do it properly!
Living in Berkshire I'm actively looking forward to simultaneously negotiating a customs union with Hampshire whilst declaring war on Oxfordshire...
franksinatra
Subscriber
I think a 50%+1I wonder though if that super majority could be found now? People like me, very firm No voters now thinking again..
I'd think even with that it's still sitting 50:50. Those 2 camps will be more entrenched than ever I think. So much less room for movement than the last time it went from 25 to 45% over the campaign. Probably room for a 5% shift at best this time(in either direction)
You'd imagine time a vote would be held too brexit will be sorted to some degree, and there will be a direction of travel of some sort they can promote.
I don’t think it’s an inevitable outcome of brexit, but it’s certainly more possible than it was..
Well, they better start negotiating the border now then!
IF UK leaves EC and IF Scotland vote for independence and IF Scotland subsequently apply and rejoin the EC then they'll have to sort out a Hard or Soft border - the first 3 ponderables may take 10 years or so but the border negotiations may take even longer so best start now...
With Westminster refusing it, then not a chance. The SNP can ask all they like, but with the current knock on issues of a referendum on independence from Europe, I cannot imagine any Westminster government agreeing to another referendum for Scotland.
in 1916 Irish independence was a minority opinion, WM screwed that one up, will they have learnt anything, going by how the devolved assemblies are being consulted, no.
Well, they better start negotiating the border now then!
it's easy, the same method the Brexiteers claim will prevent a hard border in NI is perfectly applicable to England/Scotland.
it’s easy, the same method the Brexiteers claim will prevent a hard border in NI is perfectly applicable to England/Scotland.
Yes, all we need is "technology". I'm sure we can order some of that from someone
in 1916 Irish independence was a minority opinion, WM screwed that one up, will they have learnt anything, going by how the devolved assemblies are being consulted, no.
I doubt there is much appetite in Scotland for using the 1916 to 1923 template! 😆
I'm with the op on this one. Was strongly against during the Indy ref. Following brexit should it happen then the economic argument goes out the window, which was the key driver in my previous decision.
Couple that with Westminster showing just how incompetent they are, I'd probably vote for independence should there be any guarantees Scotland could join the eu following independence. I'd rather follow the rules of the eu than the rules set by the Tories after all.
We've had our own referendum and decided that post Brexit, we're declaring our house an independent nation state. We've been stockpiling semi-automatic weapons, hand grenades, Beans and spam.
Yes, all we need is “technology”. I’m sure we can order some of that from someone
Last time someone tried to enforce the England/Scotland border the solution was a bit "Tumpian" and the same "technology" is still hanging about...
Truth be told if scotland voted out of the UK in Indy ref2 I'd be sad to lose them from the country, but as we're so fond of "respecting" referenda in this country we'd be hypocrites not to let them leave...
Of course just to be on the safe side should they maybe define a minimum turnout and margin, just to make sure it's properly representative of the will of the scotish people?
tjagain
but its by no means essential as international law covers this.
linkage?
I’d rather wait ten/twenty years and aim for at least 65%. That way it’s then indisputable.
Yep, me anaw Joe.
And to this end Declares that:
1. The subjection of peoples to alien subjugation, domination and exploitation constitutes a denial of fundamental human rights, is contrary to the Charter of the United Nations and is an impediment to the promotion of world peace and co-operation.
2. All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.
3. Inadequacy of political, economic, social or educational preparedness should never serve as a pretext for delaying independence.
4. All armed action or repressive measures of all kinds directed against dependent peoples shall cease in order to enable them to exercise peacefully and freely their right to complete independence, and the integrity of their national territory shall be respected.
5. Immediate steps shall be taken, in Trust and Non-Self-Governing Territories or all other territories which have not yet attained independence, to transfer all powers to the peoples of those territories, without any conditions or reservations, in accordance with their freely expressed will and desire, without any distinction as to race, creed or colour, in order to enable them to enjoy complete independence and freedom.
6. Any attempt aimed at the partial or total disruption of the national unity and the territorial integrity of a country is incompatible with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations.
7. All States shall observe faithfully and strictly the provisions of the Charter of the United Nations, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the present Declaration on the basis of equality, non-interference in the internal affairs of all States, and respect for the sovereign rights of all peoples and their territorial integrity.
Is Scottish Independence an inevitable outcome following Brexit?
No, you will Not see Scottish Independence in your life time.
The day you see Scottish Independence is also perhaps the day you see the first President of UK, if you are still alive that is...
Anyone pointed the Spanish at that?
See how far it gets you.
Del
Anyone pointed the Spanish at that?
See how far it gets you.
Or the Indonesians.
It's hard to see how this could come about without acquiescence from our Westminster Overlords (guess which side I'm on...). The Tories in Scotland are on a very shoogly nail; my WMP is a Tory with a majority of 149 out 16,000, he and SNP got 33% of the vote each. Yet he is regularly out and about on TV spouting his pro Brexit stance when in the Euro Ref his constituents voted 68% Remain.
At the next GE I could easily see a Labour/SNP coalition in WM or Supply and Demand on the basis that in Y4 of the Parliament Scotland gets another Referendum. Problem up here is SNP are getting key local decisions wrong and that's the main reason why the Tory see nut got in, in the first place. I can't see the people of Scotland taking to the streets Catalan style to demand a IndyRef2.
Living in Berkshire I’m actively looking forward to simultaneously negotiating a customs union with Hampshire whilst declaring war on Oxfordshire…
The Battle of the Vale of White Horse. I lived in an Oxon village that used to be in Berkshire, then moved to a Berkshire village that used to be in Buckinghamshire.
I can see another eventual independence referendum too, but a super-majority will be needed, none of this 50%+1 nonsense. I think if they promised independence with re-entry into EU, it would pass too. Then I'd emigate.
Oop, there goes opressedicyclo! 😆 The first of the belgian exiles!
One of the main reasons I voted Yes in the last referendum was seeing the rise of insular, Farage-style populism in UK politics. I think there's a better chance of representative government with a variety of viewpoints in an independent Scotland.
I'm not sure independence is more likely, however. Brexit has been such a mess (and it will get worse) that I suspect it will deter people from voting for further change, even if they sympathise with the objective.
I also noticed the electoral commission warning last week against holding further referendums until the law is updated to impose appropriate penalties against the sort of skulduggery that went on during the EU vote.
I’m not sure the polls are moving that far towards yes. One thing the Brexit shambles has shown is that just because it’s called Project Fear doesn’t mean it’s a lie. I think the desire for stability will have a counterbalancing effect on the EU issue.
seosamh77
Oop, there goes opressedicyclo!
You wanted linkage. I gave it.
However as Del points out, the UN's reaction to Spain (and Indonesia) means it's window dressing really.
I think if the Yes campaign promised a push towards EU membership I might be tempted to vote for them. If I were Scottish that is.
Not a chance under the current Government.
I reckon if we leave with the current deal we'll probably avoid a recession (just) which will likely mean the difference felt by the 'man on the street' will be tollerable, yeah you'll wince come holiday time and you won't be able to buy toasters for £3 in ASDA any more, but the papers will blame the EU for that, or May for not leaving under this fictional WTO rules.
As sure as eggs is eggs though if we see a recession the scale of the last one then the current government will lose the next election, they always do whoever is to blame really, but if we get a Labour / SNP coalition after the next GE then you might get another vote. I would imagine the EU will offer immediate entry, just to piss of England.
Of course, Labour could just appoint a less useless shitbag as a leader and they'd win in a landslide.
I also noticed the electoral commission warning last week against holding further referendums until the law is updated to impose appropriate penalties against the sort of skulduggery that went on during the EU vote
For when we vote on leaving/remaining in the EU again? That'll be useful
epicyclo
Subscriber
seosamh77
Oop, there goes opressedicyclo!You wanted linkage. I gave it.
yip and it falls flat on it's face at the first sentence.
The subjection of peoples to alien subjugation, domination and exploitation constitutes a denial of fundamental human rights,
Explain the case for that?
Brexit has been such a mess (and it will get worse) that I suspect it will deter people from voting for further change
I was speaking to a Scottish mate of mine yesterday and this was very much his viewpoint. If we thought untangling ourselves from the EU was difficult, imagine how hard it would be for Scotland to untangle itself from the rest of the UK!
IMO the SNP (and/or others) would need an absolute commitment to having a referendum in their manifesto for the next Scottish elections and then get a majorty in that election before Westminster will agree to one. Although it's in the manifesto they stood on last time that if changes were made etc etc, but I don't think that's enough.
I think there is enough unionist votes to allow tactical voting to prevent the above happening next Scottish election.
Tbh before any referendum the SNP need to do a few things for it to start to look like it might be successful.
- Sort out the financial argument/situation, ie put scotland in the black, that way the argument becomes indisputable, there is no argument against it
- Sort out the EU position and get guarantees scotland would be accepted.
- Up support for independence to at least 60% in the polls.
They fail on all 3 accounts. Opportunism on the back of Brexit doesn't really float my boat tbh. If a vote comes up I'll vote yes, but I'll do it thinking it'll get beat, and that it'll kill of independence forever.
For me the arguments haven't moved on yet, and there's just too much uncertainty that I think the polls showing an increase are probably wrong, when it comes to it, they'll change, it's floating voters changing their opinions at the minute, they will change again.
It's just too easy to cast doubt on the future right now. And if you think the EU are hard-nosed about Brexit negotiations, wait till you see what the UK do with a divided Scotland.
Scotland would need to go into negotiations united to some degree.
I would also stipulate a re-vote once the negotiations had finished. If Brexit has told us anything it's that that would only be fair. The first vote is about voting with your heart, the second would be about looking at the reality and deciding whether or not to go for it.
I support Scottish independence, but not at all costs.
Like it or not, Salmond will have an impact too. He turned the "broad church" into an electoral force and to a fair degree it will wither without a figurehead like him. I don't like him, but he acheived a lot.
Seosamh - I'd pretty much agree with all of that (I would vote the other way, but not at all costs). Your first two criteria are unlikely to happen any time soon IMHO. The growth commission report has as good as finished the financial argument in the short-medium term. The problem with a second vote is that it encourages hard play by the other side (EU or rUK) to get a really bad deal to swing a second remain vote. I still want one though!
Epicyclo - you need to read a but more about that right to self-determination. Under international law, as it currently stands, territorial integrity take precendence and it doesn't allow secession by self-determination. Quite a lot has been written on the topic with a few very pointed papers/opinions on Quebec. Internaional law is simply what states agree it is and in some areas the mood is changing, but it hasn't yet. Crimea's dodgy vote is a fairly good example of what might happen globally if you recognise secession by self-determination.
Although it’s in the manifesto they stood on last time
It was in a sidebar, buried in the full text. It wasn't in the summary, short, large print, etc versions. If they really want this, it needs to be front and center as it was previously.
i (very much English) viewed it as a big mistake for Scotland but was actually indifferent to the actual outcome of the independence referendum, now if the U.K. leaves with a rubbish deal or no deal and no customs union then i say good luck to Scotland and i hope they prosper in the E.U.
i mean why would you want to be tied to a country that has shot itself in the foot and is going down the shitter?
I'm with GrahamS on this one. Brexit is like trying to get the milk back out of your coffee. I can't imagine that Scottish independence will be any different. What about:
* North Sea oil.
* Faslane.
* The Army.
* The NHS.
and so on. It would be another total shambles.
little Rob
The oilfeilds are already split between scottish and english so that is no issue
Faslane - subject to negotiations - the obvious deal is a leaseback to rUK for a limited time but if Westminster wants to play hardball its get your subs out now
The army - again we have scottish regiments, assets are split on a population basis. No great issue. Longer term we need a conversation about what sort of army iScotland would need
The NHS - already totally separate.
Can you imagine the billboards... Salmond, not with his hand in your pocket, but up the Queen's knickers!!
tjagain You make it all sound so simple. The cynic in me was concerned that it would be a total cluster-do-dah. Silly me.
Oh there will be huge difficulties - but those particular issues are not that difficult. difficult issues are currency, disentangling UK wide institutions that sort of thing
And also replacing incompetence with incompetence........
– Sort out the financial argument/situation, ie put scotland in the black, that way the argument becomes indisputable, there is no argument against it
– Sort out the EU position and get guarantees scotland would be accepted.
I agree with most of what you say for once! It would have to paint independence for positive reasons, not the epicyclo type reasons of still being bitter about things that happened hundreds of years ago. I think brexit has scuppered it in terms of more upheaval and chaos though.
The oilfeilds are already split between scottish and english so that is no issue
in what way?
In that some are subject to scottish law and some english law due to the different legal systems. Thats my understanding although there was a redrawing of the boundary a few years ago - or a oil grab in snp language
It would be another total shambles.
The difference is that the SNP has been considering this and planning for it for decades. They have a reasonable idea of what they want to do. Of course, there are going to be some or many cock ups, but at least they have a plan for most of it.
EDIT: all AIUI of course but I've only got my impression from the iref to go on. Many of you will be able to correct me I'm sure.
The difference is that the SNP has been considering this and planning for it for decades. They have a reasonable idea of what they want to do.
It would be nice if they could share that with us then! There is no plan, no helpful vision of how things would be set up after independence. Their white paper was nothing more than an unworkable pipe dream which made throwaway statements about some really complex stuff.
It could be done, but it would be more complex than Brexit (and require a more collaborative approach). The current mob appear to have no idea about how to actually do it.
The political case for Independence I see - Brexit has changed a lot of people's minds I am sure and Westminster hasn't inspired additional devotion to a Union that isn't United...
But the big issue for me is financial - the 2014 independence fiscal proposal based on Oil revenues and taxation has sailed. Oil money is not the answer to our prayers. We're an unattractive enough place to do business with higher personal tax already and a Government who openly say they want to increase it. Also - why on earth would companies want to come to Scotland and not London - the financial heart of Europe. That's not going to sell independence for me. HSBC contingency for Scottish Independence for example was to ship out of Scotland entirely (6000? jobs gone in a snap) and move to Birmingham. RBS are already a London bank in all but name so it doesn't require a lot of imaginative extrapolation to foresee a financial catastrophe in an Independent Future Scotland.
Oh and the Pound. That's a major hurdle right there.
I am a very proud Scot. I voted No in 2014. I've been called all sorts of horrible things for it but I would still vote No. One of the interesting things about the 2014 Referendum was it made me more proud to be British - something I thought I'd never say. Some of the tub thumping from Nationalists was cringeworthy and the whole Anti-English thing in my Borders homeland was awful - and from people who should know much better.
I completely understand and am tempted by the sentiment behind the political case for independence now after seeing Brexit unfold but I don't buy into it. The Tories are a Government not a nation and if people aren't happy they need to vote out the Tories. Whether people will is a really interesting question.
I think the idea that the Brexit process has caused unease for people because it's such a disaster is interesting and worth some pondering...
The issue is the nation keeps voting Tory again and again.
Grumpy - did you read it? Or are yoou relying on the unionist press? There was a lot of detail on how things would work but the unionist narrative was the only one that got into the UK wide press.
On the £ for example. the bank of england belongs to the UK. So 9% of it belongs to scotland. 9% of the debt and 9% of the reserves and 9% of the value of the bank of England. How much is that worth? Thats why iScotland would have the right to continue using the £ - its a part owner of it.
The unionist press only reported on 9% odf the debts - not 9% of the assets.
sas - how about the new oilfields? IIRC the latest is larger than Brent. Also oil prices have increased again significantly.
Independence is far from inevitable at this point. I think the Brexit chaos and more importantly the shape of the UK in future has caused many people to reconsider independence. The current govt appear to be heading down an authoritarian route and further cuts to benefits and services are in the pipeline. I cant see this UK government agreeing to another indy ref no matter how high support for independence in Scotland. That gives me major cause for concern.
tbh I should put a disclaimer on the arguments I made above they aren't really stipulations I need but what I think will be required for it to be successful.
The financial argument isn't really one I need satisfied for myself, it'll possibly take a hit in the short to medium term. I personal can live with that. But it needs a more definite answer if it's going to sway others. (I personally think scotland needs a 10/15 year programme to put it's self in the black or somewhere approaching it).
Same with the EU question, I think it's a stick on we'll get in, but the uncertainty will put alot of people off. So that needs worked on.
Biggest problem for me is the division, I just don't see how it'll work at the negotiating phase nor in the long term with 2 equal groups at each others throats.
Sort out the financial argument/situation, ie put scotland in the black, that way the argument becomes indisputable, there is no argument against it
It's unlikely this will be possible. In order to remove the issue of the subsidy Scotland currently gets, the ability to set policies required to grow the economy do not all sit with the Scottish Government. There is no appetite in Westminster nor has there been for decades to make investment more even across the whole of the UK. Little sign of this improving either. So how can the Scottish Government put Scotland in the black with one hand tied behind it's back without drastically cutting public spending just to prove a point? They can't. It's not possible currently. There is always going to be a leap of faith in that regards. Once independent then measures can be put in place to grow the economy to make up for the shortfall in losing the subsidy. That's why no matter what they come up with there will always be an argument against it.
The argument for me is if we don't go independent then are we going to be increasingly reliant on that subsidy year on year? Who wants to live in a country like that? Happy with handouts decided by people who can barely hide their contempt for you? Not for me thanks. Does anyone honestly see remaining part of the UK any different to that for the foreseeable future?
Not saying it'll easy, and there possibly is a chicken and egg scenario going on. But I just don't see people agreeing to IS, if the financial argument isn't sorted... so they'll need to get creative on that point.
In that some are subject to scottish law and some english law due to the different legal systems. Thats my understanding although there was a redrawing of the boundary a few years ago – or a oil grab in snp language
I think you've been suckered in by independence campaign material or what would nowadays be called fake news, the vast majority of oil resources are in Scottish waters, with a smaller number of mostly gas fields in English waters. Any so called dispute in the maritime boundary would only affect a small proportion of licence areas but along with the Cameron flying in to secret drilling rigs west of Shetland nonsense it got the punters riled up nice and easily during the referendum.
https://www.ogauthority.co.uk/offshoremap
Some of the tub thumping from Nationalists was cringeworthy and the whole Anti-English thing in my Borders homeland was awful
Perhaps it depends where you lived. I never encountered any anti English sentiment during the campaign. There was lots of very heated argument about the pros and cons of independence, but ethnicity wasn't an issue that I encountered.
WARNING - BITTER IRISH MAN RANT
The biggest problem a indy Scotland or united ireland would have is the english.
The sheer scale of group insanity and lunatic politicial class shows me that separation would be messy, dark, bloody and in no way certain if a ref voted for it.
Genuine LOL at the characterisation of England's politics against the shining light that is NI and Scotland
big_n_daft - there's a difference. NI admits it's a basketcase.
Bigjim - I am not and I think we actually agree on this hence my use of " in snp language"
The major flaw with Scottish independence as a means to stay in the EU is that there's no way the Spanish don't veto it and make an independent Scotland go through the standard application process. I'd imagine they'd get there in the end but the intervening years could be tough and I don't see how Scottish membership gets approved without an agreement on the border with England.
The spanish have said that with brexit they have no objection - as it does not set precedent for catalonia. Brexit makes scotland remaining in the eu / rejoining actually much easier.
'ere we go again.
If Brexit is bad, Scottish independence would be brexit on stilts.
The idea that Scotland can pay its own bills in a situation where there would be am immediate 10% drop in cash available across the board is not even denied by the SNP and was written into their "book of dreams 2" financial paper (the name escapes me).
For reference, the horrible effects of "Austerity" (suicides among the poor and removal of services for those in need etc. etc.) was a result of a 1.5% ish cut in budget, worsened by the larger cuts passed onto councils by the SNP. Independence would be 5 times that and even the SNP had to envisage something like 3% growth over 25 to 50 years to make up the difference.
N.B. Saying "no it wouldn't" is not a counterargument unless you can explain where the money will come from.
N.B. II Not having Trident would save scotland 300M a year (from memory) NOT 13Bn, so look elsewhere.
N.B. III Theres no such thing as Whisky Export Duty.
N.B. IV No we don't pay for Crossrail (or any U.K. project that does not benefit Scotland.)
To give you an idea of the scale, getting rid of NHS Scotland would save the right amount of cash. Or not paying for any pensions and for any social services (don't make me put up the graph!)
So, we've had these arguments before, and on planet reality (barring the zoomers of independence swallowing the same kool aid as the zoomers of brexit) theres not much to be said.
It is as hard to put the argument for "things staying the same" for Scotland in the UK as it was for the UK in Europe.
The "Change" side always has the advantage because they can claim things would be better for _everyone_ and promise _anything_.
All things to all people, with no evidence, until the die is cast.
Zoomers the lot of them.
N.B. Don't mistake my opposition to Scottish independence for a love of tories, brexit or anything else. Its its own subject with its own issues.
The only fun bit is watching the SNP argue that leaving a successful single market, customs and monetary union with whom you do 60% of your business is the best way forward.
And even that is wearing thin after watching the liars of brexit do so with no shame and no consequences.
edit:
P.S. For those who say "its not about money". If thats the case then you can't claim that it IS about social services and NHS and looking after people better than in the UK. Because thats the sort of decision that only money allows you to make.
Guess who's got a set of pre-prepared bits to cut and paste, who exactly are you arguing with here? Didn't you read the thread? 😆
Cut and paste .. I wish :O)
I did read the thread, (and I obviously disagree about inevitability). Not particularly arguing with anyone, I'm just trying to get ahead of the main subject in these threads.
To summarise:
Sooner or later it comes down to economics.
There is no viable economic argument.
The End (for those who aren't flag merchants)
Good for you, you are predicting doom, we kinda get it.
It is interesting how the uk can work itself down from a 10% deficit, to 2.4%. but Scotland is stuck forever with and 8.3% deficit, that will be impossible to shift forever. 😆
It's not an insurmountable challenge.
We’re an unattractive enough place to do business with higher personal tax already and a Government who openly say they want to increase it.
This too is utter bobbins. The higher personal tax is only on those earning more than the natioal averge - those earning less than the national average are taxed less.
doom or fact ? Hard to tell right up until it starts to happen.
Main fact was stated early on "If EU membership was on the cards I would strongly consider supporting independence". Yeah well it's sort of not as it isn't as easy as that. Not to say it's not the right answer but you have to consider the path to get there and the simple fact as a country we are economically unsustainable no matter what any hyperbole says.
And what is the "scottish deficit" looking like now that oil price has recovered from the temporary low? How about the two new fields discovered since the referendum? Fields we were told did not exist?
Seosamh
At least you're not saying it doesn't matter 🙂
Also the SNP say it would take 25 years (of unrealistic made up growth figures) to get back to where we are now.
So no I'm not saying it would last forever. Just a few decades.
But until then ... how does that make things better for the people of Scotland?
Hard to tell right up until it starts to happen.
It's hard to tell until 10/20 years after the fact. The decisions an independent Scotland makes will determine it's viability, not what has historically happened under the banner of the uk.
But yes I still agree the argument needs to basically show Scotland in surplus. It's just what will influence people the most.