[Closed] Is outdoor kit from the 90's better quality than today?

It's cost cutting but not Chinese production. My Gore shorts are made in China and are excellent quality.

A friend of mine did textile technology at Leicester in the 80s. His career has been spent travelling around the world getting clothing manufacturers up to the standard high end shops want. When he started, UK could meet the standard. Over the years, Sri Lanka, Hong Kong, China and Vietnam came up to the same or a better standard provided they were paid a good price.

If you but Sports Direct brands from China, they'll be crap.

If you buy Patagonia from China, it'll be good.

Beg to differ on Patagonia these days. 🙁

In general, good brand today is much better IMO today.

No, even kit you get now looks clean after you wash it and doesn't require a metal frame.

Weight has become more important and that means kit that is less robust but significantly lighter. Whether that is a positive is up to you to decide.

So what we can deduce from this is that washing something makes it clean? 😆

"Chinese Production" gets blamed for all sorts of shortfalls, but truth is there is some of the most cutting edge factories in the world in China, give them a design and a budget and they'll bang out anything you fancy - iPhones, MTB frames and lots of bits of 'German' cars.

If theirs been a downturn in quality it's a result of the never ending move to disposable cheap goods in favour of long lasting ones.

My Dad's old Jansport rucksack with aluminium exteranl frame from the 70s was crazy light- about half the weight of modern rucksacks. Not as comfortable though!

Are we getting sub standard kit now?

your (ahem) "research" isn't exactly exhaustive 😆

All.my Arc'teryx stuff is now made in China. Quality is top notch and by all accounts didn't drop off when they moved from Canada.

I think there's more cheap kit about now of variable quality. In the 90s there was less choice. Im sure you get better kit now for the same money.

Kit is much lighter generally now. Fabric technology has come on a lot e.g. more breathable fabrics, DWR, hydrophobic down etc.

I've sold all my 90s mountaineering kit on Ebay over the last few months - well made but heavy. Much prefer modern stuff.

I think things are better now (as in most areas). Fabric technology is better, more ideas have been had, and more time has been spent on developing kit. Take bikes as an example. 20 years ago you had 'a mountain bike' that was rigid, 26, had V brakes. Your biggest choice was what groupset you could afford and whether you had 1.7, 1.9 or 2.1s for tyres.

I first started buying outdoor gear in the mid 90s. Some things I remember:

1) Duofold base layer - rubbish at wicking, had a polo neck and elasticated cuffs which stayed tight whilst the rest of it got baggy.

2) North Face Westwind tent (the grey one not the orange one). Still quite light for a four season tent, still in great condition, you'd barely know it was 20 years old.

3) Rab down sleeping bags - again you wouldn't know apart from the colours and the fact the fabric is heavier than modern bags.

4) MSR Whisperlite - same as they make now, but they've brought out better ones like the one with the valve on the burner rather than the bottle. Still use this.

5) Thermarest - paid £45 in 1994 for one of the brown 3/4 length ones. Someone realised that they'd be better coffin shaped rather than oblong - doesn't cost any more but is just a better idea. Still use it though on car camping, but the modern ones are thicker, lighter, more comfy and similar in price in relative terms.

6) Camelbak - my first one circa 1993 was an oblong pocket of foam backed fabric with thin webbing straps that dug into your shoulders. It had no pockets so you had to stuff your tools and pump in with the bladder, which only lasted about 3 months before leaking somewhere. The valve on the end would also fall off regularly. No comparison to today's range.

7) Buffalo. Nuff said. Anyone want to buy one? Very retro!

8. Blue Goretex TNF jacket. Broadly the same as today's jackets but less breathable.

9) Baggy MTB shorts hadn't been invented

10) Fleeces - basically the same as they are today, except you can get much cheaper ones that are the same as the expensive ones from back then.

11) Buffalo windproof - this was decent enough for a pull-on but modern ones are cut closer with stretch panels to make for a better fit with comfort and less flapping.

Blue Goretex TNF jacket. Broadly the same as today's jackets but less breathable.

Very impressed with modern GTX, walked for hours in driving rain on Monday in the Lakes - absolutely lashing down and finally made it back to Ambleside pretty much bone dry underneath it all - bit of dampness around collar where rain had driven in, but other than that, all insulation / base layers were bone dry.

Kit was TNF GTX Pro shell, Arcteryx Atom AR mid layer, HH base layer. I took off the GTX to put on the Atom mid walk and got pretty wet doing it, but it dried out completely under the GTX.

some stuffs better now as I'm a huge fan of light packable stuff. But also im not surprised that a light pertex shield shell has a short life span.

Some stuff just won't die ive got old trangia stove since I was about 14 years old and it still works fine of a little battered.

Also have an original petzel zoom that still works but it's do poor compared to modern stuff

My 30 yr old Karrimor hot route sac is still doing duty hauling climbing gear to the crags, admittedly not as often as it used to. 30 yr old trangia obviously still going as there really is nothing to wear out.

Original Petzl zoom still going, got an LED upgrade a good few years ago, but not is is just so out gunned by even cheap modern stuff, which I probably won't have in 20+ yrs time.

I'd agree with the above points, modern stuff is generally quality lighter weight or more budget options available, both less robust than the 90's stuff.

One area where things have changed dramatically is in down jackets; twenty years ago, about all you could buy were jackets like this:

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But now there are jackets like this:

[img] [/img]

Which are much more appropriate for UK weather, and are much more water resistant due to new down treatment that prevents the feathers from wetting out.
I've got one of these jackets, and having worn it for two hours in wind-driven drizzle around Avebury, the only place that water got in was around the collar stitching.

I've still got one of the old TNF down jackets going strong. Probably as it is too warm to wear most of the time, at least when active. Ok for a 60 quid sale purchase, must be over 15 yrs ago. Montane Prism gets way more use.

I just bought a late 80s/early 90s kimm sack

Back from when karrimor were decent.

It's my go to running bag now. Little heavier than the omm classic 25 but the fabric has a good bit more substance about it.

Also have an original petzel zoom that still works but it's do poor compared to modern stuff

Can you even buy those [s]9V[/s] 4.5V cigarette pack size batteries any more?

More brands offer a sort of fashion outdoor range these days for people who want the look but not the price or technical stuff so if you are comparing that possibly. Good stuff is still good.

Different.
Old stuff is still going as it was made of more substantial materials.
Same with bike kit. Current fad is light, which does have advantages of course. Light won't last, it wears out. That maybe good as it allows us to buy new more often.
However some brands that were top quality are no longer that. Karrimor is the obvious candidate. Berghaus are getting that way. Of course maybe they just make a bigger range and we only notice the crap stuff.
And new stuff hasn't actually had time to prove itself has it. My Scarpa Bronzos are 36 years old and going strong. My Scarpa Cristalos can't be more than 6 so I cannot compare.

I agree matt.

My alpine pans and whisperlite stove have already stood the test of time and i have no reason to think i wont still be using them in 20 more years.

Same for my buffalo mountain shirt

My light weight alu pots melt through in a couple years .

My closed cell foam matt still works yet ive worn out several thermarests (real ones and copies)

How ever they do serve diffeent purposes.

So there will be an element of looking at the stuff thats still about and saying all old kit was longer lasting .... But im sure there is stuff you can buy now that will still be about im 20years .... Most likely te heavier mid range stuff rather than the expensive light weight stuff.

Mean while the early light stuff is long gone and consigned to scrap for more than technological changes.

We won't really know for another 20 years, will we?

No. Modern kit is lighter better cut and warmer. If you are using it for climbing bin all the old gearr. If just mooching about keep the old stuff it'll do for beach duty.

Thats a very general statement marin.

Why does the op need to throw out his ruck sack if he was using it for climbing ?

I get it for actual climbing gear - ropes cams quickdraws etc they dont age well and are safety critical but clothing and bags and stoves as whats been mentioned on this thread so far..... I dont see why they should be binned or consigned to beach use only.

We managed with it then and we manage with it now and i fail to see so long as it works why we wouldnt cope with it in the future.

Er because modern gear is lighter and easier on body in long run for overall weightsaving and in my experience means you get to go faster and recover quicker. I said keep his old pack for the beach if actually climbing a new lighter one would be much more fun.
They used to manage with hobnail boots but Im sure would have loved modern lightweight boots to climb in and keep the hobnails for beach duty.

Ok , i stand corrected im off to throw my old whisperlite in the tip.

Or not ......because i know itll always work unlike some of my mates lightweight stuff ive bailed out with said whisperlite.

Oh and lighter isnt always better - see welded pack failure. Nothing ruins a day on the hills like a split pack.

I've an old karrimor rucksack that is older than me (I'm 31) and has travelled to more places, on 5 continents, covering more miles than most cars do in their lives.

I have no reason to suspect it will not last centuries

Got a Karrimor Jaguar rucksack from the late '80s. Just as good as it ever was, and my son is now using it for his DofE expeditions. Suspect Karrimor will no longer honour the lifetime warranty though 🙁

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It/you won't need it.

It/you won't need it.

I suspect it'll outlast me - easily. It can be my legacy to my kids 🙂

Modern kit is lighter better cut and warmer.

its definitely lighter, and warmer for the weight. But I'm not totally convinced about things being better cut - there's loads of clever things that can be done with minimal seams, bonding etc. But i think outdoor gear is more fashion led now.

Look at general outdoor gear, loads of waterproofs seem to be cut for climbing - short jackets to fit harnesses, massive hoods to fit helmets etc. There's a bit of a fashion element I guess, who wants a rambler jacket, and no doubt fabrics are much better, but design wise I'm not sure the features are necessary.

Even more specialist outdoor stuff seems fashion led, compare a fell runner's bumbag to those fishing vest things with the squeezy bottles - one's about £20 and the other £100 plus.

Having said that, its no bad thing you can go backpacking with all your gear in a 30L daysack compared to a 70l monster 20-30 years ago. And probably in more comfort too.

shermer75, you can still get those Jansport Rucksacks 🙂
They brought them out again some years ago but have since stopped selling the brand in the UK.

I have got a prototope big Jansport mountaineering pack and its silly light compared to my Lowe Alpine from the 90s but still super strong.
big difference to whether you are using heavy balistic nylon or sailcloth.

Old stuff is still going as it was made of more substantial materials.

Not all of it!

Rose tinted glasses alert. There was still shite being made 20 years ago, and 40, and 100.

Yeah who needs lightweight gear when you spend your spare time bickering on forums. Back to the real world for me.

Yeah who needs lightweight gear when you spend your spare time bickering on forums. Back to the real world for me.

TNF,Berghaus and even Rab (apart from top end stuff) is absolute rubbish now. I had a Rab Endurance that was 12-13yrs old that I replaced 18 months ago, but not with a Rab. The equivalent model was pants, and not cheap, so I got a Alpkit down jacket. The Alpkit won't last 10 yrs (nor would the Rab) but it was at least priced right.

I'm sure it's been said already, but it's simple economics. The share holders don't make their huge dividends on jackets that last 10 years and more.

Look at general outdoor gear, loads of waterproofs seem to be cut for climbing - short jackets to fit harnesses, massive hoods to fit helmets etc. There's a bit of a fashion element I guess, who wants a rambler jacket, and no doubt fabrics are much better, but design wise I'm not sure the features are necessary.

I much prefer to have good priced technical gear for what I want to do in it...

TNF,Berghaus and even Rab (apart from top end stuff) is absolute rubbish now.

You're thinking kit from the 90's is better because you're still using it. You've thrown away the rubbish you bought in the 90's. You'll be using some of the stuff you buy today in 20 years time but will have thrown away the rubbish and be thinking the same thing.

Top end Rab gear is excellent. My primaloft was about £180 6 yearsago. 30 quid a year been used on several long climbing trips abroad and lots of short ones. Plus countless plods and climbs in UK. Overpriced for UK conditions generally I'd say yes. Priceless for actually doing what its designed for. Way better than any jacket I ever owned Iin the past. Same for lightweight waterproof and sacs and boots. IF being used for what the adverts show and not shopping on the high street.

Yeah, I bought a climbing jacket and it's not as good for walking to the pub in...

That's not really what I meant though - if you're going walking in the Lakes/Brecon Beacons/Peak District in Winter you're going to want the fabrics used in mountaineering gear, but not necessarily a jacket designed to work with a harness and bibs, high pockets to clear a harness etc. But there's not a lot of performance/technical gear for this, which is probably a bigger market than winter mountaineers. But that's not a great image to sell though is it.

I guess it's a bit like people buying a great big off road SUV for the couple of weeks a year they think it helps in winter conditions, when a 4 wheel drive estate car might be better suited, but doesn't look as cool.

Which is a bit off the point of the topic, but not totally - I was looking at a 1992 Patagonia catalogue (yes I know how sad it is to keep them) and it's surprising how many different cuts are available from one manufacturer - longer cut "anorak" fleeces and waterproofs for ski mountaineering, hiking stuff, MTB waterproofs with pretty big drop tails. Arguably more specific designs/cuts, but fabric and weights wouldn't be up to much compared to modern gear.

Got a Berghaus pack which I bought 20+ yrs ago. Still going strong and I am sick of the sight of it 🙂 but other than weight there is no reason to replace it.

One major disappointment for me has been the claimed breathability of fabrics. As a runner and generally someone who moves quite quickly when in the hills or outdoors the much promised breathability of Goretex (and I had a Goretex jacket in the 80's) made by Frank Shorter (probably not personally!) and since then have had a few others including a few proprietary brands and Event. None "breathe" particularly well and whilst I dont expect to stay "very" dry I find them all disappointing. Its probably not really possible even when wearing only a Helly Hansen under a shell, they simply shouldn't make the claims.

For running I go with Gore products which are well made, breathable (non waterproof jackets) and comfortable.

Gore Tex and other breathable fabrics will never work well in the UK if you're very active inside them. There's simply just not a large enough temperature and humidity difference between inside and outside. They will be better than non breathable though.

Seems to me that good quality kit from 80s and 90s was very well made but current materials are technically superior to old ones. Bought a TNF Mountain jacket from a mate who had used it for two seasons on the Alps and two expeditions, used it for few years myself and now it still used by my father as a work wear. It does weigh a ton and there is some leakage in the high wear areas but it still works.

Got a Karrimor Jaguar rucksack from the late '80s

Even more specialist outdoor stuff seems fashion led, compare a fell runner's bumbag to those fishing vest things with the squeezy bottles - one's about £20 and the other £100 plus.

I've got both, and the vest backpack is a lot more comfortable for a long (3hr+) run, and you can carry more water + other stuff. Of course, you do get a lot of people that seem to need them for a quick hour in the local park, but that doesn't mean they don't have their place.

If modern stuff is so good, how come it wasn't around 20 years ago?