[Closed] Is obesity really a disease?

As far as I'm concerned, obesity itself isn't a disease, it's a symptom of something else be it thyroid problems, mental health problems or just general laziness and over eating.

This.

As there are several things that can lead to obesity how can the symptom not the cause be the disease?

I think people also need to understand the difference between weight and fat content. At my lightest I weighed a smidgen over 13 stone and looked positively ill for it. Like I had some sort of disease. My brother who is the same height currently weighs 11 stone something and could easily be lighter if he wanted. He looks neither ill or malnourished. When I was at my lightest he was at his 'fattest' which was around the same weight. He looked proper fat, I looked ill.

Body composition scales are a much better measure of your 'weight' than normal scales. Again, the BMI calculation is a joke. Weight/height or whatever it is is a stupid rule. So a weight lifter who has 4% body fat is obese....right....Look at where you carry extra fat rather than worrying about how many kilo's you weigh.

Brakes has a point - its about education. In a land where cheap, plentiful but poor quality food is easily available it's easy to see how people become obese. I've been to the States once (south Carolina) and was stunned at the portion size and cheapness of eating out. People see a good meal as one where the plate is stacked high, not where the quality of food is high.

Obesity is the word used to describe a result, a condition. Not the cause.

Its in the commercial interest of some parties to have Gov or Insurance funded health authorities, class excess body fat as a clinical illness for which the use of drugs may be an appropriate response.

I suspect that some people may suffer from a genetic predisposition to accumulate excessive B/F although the term [i] excessive[/i] has a differing basis for qualification. However, the number of people who are at a truly genetic disadvantage, is extremely small.

I'm sitting next to someone right now, who is 5'7" and 20 stones. He's had one mild heart attach already, yet still persists in eating junk food. Draw your own conclusions in that specific case.

But, I tend to hope that if agreement on a course of action could be reached, then education would be the route to take, in order to see an end to clinical obesity and the drugs used and yet to be created to control it.
*See what I did there*

It really galls to be lectured on being a fat weak minded slob by you lot, when I go to the canteen at work for my unsweetened coffee and there are skinny people who do less exercise than me popping muffins and crisps.

Yep the lottery of life sucks. Its probably equally anoying how some people seem to be able to do maths without trying or others can draw a perfect circle freehand (and draw a horse, those are hard), some have perfect skin and other go bald early.

It just means some people have to try harder in some areas and other people try hard in other areas. Some things we just have to accept and deal with or else we just become a victim of our own circumstances.

Solo - Member

Obesity is the word used to describe a result, a condition. Not the cause.

Sure. But then, so is work related stress- a condition caused by external nonmedical circumstances, but still a medical condition in its own right. Obesity's hardly unique in this.

But then, so is work related stress- a condition caused by external nonmedical circumstances, but still a medical condition in its own right.

Condition is not necessarily disease.

DAMN THAT WORK I NEED A PRECISE OF MY OWN THREAD

Goes for Dinner
Cous cous salad, Orange and a banana [ fruit not in couscous] and a shed load of biscuits [ carb loading for night ride whilst eating usual ish dinner]

High fructose corn syrup should be made illegal, it's the devil's food and is becoming ubiquitous.
Fizzy drinks, whether made with high-fructose corn syrup or artificial sweeteners should also be made illegal, they are nothing but utterly unhealthy.

Body composition scales are a much better measure of your 'weight' than normal scales. Again, the BMI calculation is a joke. Weight/height or whatever it is is a stupid rule. So a weight lifter who has 4% body fat is obese....right....Look at where you carry extra fat rather than worrying about how many kilo's you weigh.

BMI is a good measure at a population level. Sure there will be some outliers but generally if you have a high BMI you will be fat. Very few people will use solely BMI to assess an individual, as a min a GP will also measure you waist as look at other pointers.

Did you and your brother ever have you body fat measured? It may be that you are the same and one of you is overweight/underweight but your minds have been conditioned to expect you to look a certain way. When that changes the results look strange. A bit like seeing someone who always wears glasses without them. They still look the same but the lack of glasses makes them look very unfamiliar and strange.

Its just my opinion, but Obesity is the result of the body accumulating too much body fat. Obvious you may say. But its when the processes that regulate body fat are either broken down or confused, that then allows the body to accumulate way more body fat than is required or even [i]healthy[/i].

Metabolic syndrome is the term I've encountered, which is used by some to describe the break down of normal body fat regulation.
Which kinda makes me think that if we're talking about a disease, then its whatever causes a person's metabolism to go haywire.

Can everyone claiming obesity not to be a disease please edit there posts to indicate which peer-reviewed sources they are using to make their statements?

Obesity is a disease resulting from between genetic and environmental factors

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1550413112004986

phil.w - Member

Condition is not necessarily disease.

Someone helpfully posted the definition earlier, but here's another... I think a lot of people are working on an assumption that a disease has to have some medical cause, like an infection or genetics or similiar.

"a disorder of structure or function in a human, animal, or plant, especially one that produces specific symptoms or that affects a specific location and is not simply a direct result of physical injury

a particular quality or disposition regarded as adversely affecting a person or group of people

Origin:

Middle English (in the sense 'lack of ease; inconvenience'): from Old French desaise 'lack of ease', from des- (expressing reversal) + aise 'ease'"

[i]High fructose corn syrup should be made illegal, it's the devil's food and is becoming ubiquitous.
Fizzy drinks, whether made with high-fructose corn syrup or artificial sweeteners should also be made illegal, they are nothing but utterly unhealthy. [/i]

I agree and I've noticed lately the increase of the inclusion in ingredients lists of [i][b]Glucose fructose syrup[/b][/i] which, for example, is listed on the packet of mini Jaffa cakes on the desk next to me.

artificial sweeteners should also be made illegal

What's wrong with artificial sweeteners? They're some of the most tested foodstuffs in history. They offend those that read the Guardian and make things taste sweet without loading them full of sugar. Win/win.

If you ban artificial sweeteners then more people will consume sugar. It's a bit like banning airbags because it winds a few people when they go off.

Does every post you make have a pop at Guardian lefties?
The last few threads I have been on you are doing the same meme

I dont like sweeteners FWIW as at least sugar is natural so i try to avoid - that said I dont do much sugar either

It just means some people have to try harder in some areas and other people try hard in other areas. Some things we just have to accept and deal with or else we just become a victim of our own circumstances.

Absolutely.

If you ban artificial sweeteners then more people will consume sugar.

Hmm.. maybe, maybe not. It could be that drinking sugar free stuff all day in the belief that it's not bad for you conditions your brain and pallette to seek out sweetness all the time, which would clearly have bad consequences.

You adapt to sweetness just as you adapt to lots of salt, you start considering it normal.

[i]Can everyone claiming obesity not to be a disease please edit there posts to indicate which peer-reviewed sources they are using to make their statements? [/i]

Ah, that utopian world where the field of research is a fair, open and level field. I bet theres more funding [cough]GSK[/cough] provided to prove obesity [b]is[/b] a disease than the opposite. But hey-ho, that's just another problem with this particular ball of string.

If obesity is a disease, what's metabolic syndrome.
I'm off.

Oh and don't think that being classified as a diesease is going to make any difference to drug companies. They've been trying to make thin pills for decades.

I'm back !

[i]Oh and don't think that being classified as a diesease is going to make any difference to drug companies. They've been trying to make thin pills for decades. [/i]

Grips, you're way smarter than that and we know it......
😐

EDIT.
Getting your thin pill onto the buying list of NICE or the FDA is a gravy train too good for any company to resist.

As others have said, obesity is the end result not a disease in itself.

An under active thyroid is the disease, obesity is the result.
Depression is the disease, over eating/comfort eating the result.

etc etc....

Medical causes for obesity are few and far between, most people simply eat too much and move too little.

Ah, that utopian world where the field of research is a fair, open and level field

I have concluded from extensive research that it is easier to make snidey comments than provide scientific evidence or data.

Ah, that utopian world where the field of research is a fair, open and level field. I bet theres more funding [cough]GSK[/cough] provided to prove obesity is a disease than the opposite. But hey-ho, that's just another problem with this particular ball of string.

Didn't you know all double blind placebo controlled studies are foolproof? This is science we are talking about! Fact!

*Anyone who actually believes this is living in Lala land.

Does every post you make have a pop at Guardian lefties?

Nope, less than 1% of my posts at a guess.

at least sugar is natural

Some of them are, some of them not.

It could be that drinking sugar free stuff all day in the belief that it's not bad for you conditions your brain and pallette to seek out sweetness all the time, which would clearly have bad consequences.

Definitely an issue worth looking at! Then you enter a whole thing of weaning yourself off anythign sweet and treating them like nicotine patches. Or if they're unharmful, cheap and plentiful, then where's the harm?

I eat very little sugar but quite a lot of artificial sweeteners. Extremely happy with my body composition so not complaining. On balance though I wish I didn't drink so much asparthame - given the choice...

[i]I have concluded from extensive research that it is easier to make snidey comments [/i]

Yeap, some have turned it almost into an art, in between bans, that is.
😉

bigrich - Member
Can everyone claiming obesity not to be a disease please edit there posts to indicate which peer-reviewed sources they are using to make their statements?
Obesity is a disease resulting from between genetic and environmental factors
> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1550413112004986
br />
Po

See, I'd call it a syndrome but then my credentials in the field are questionable ( 😳 )

[i]On balance though I wish I didn't drink so much asparthame[/i]

on balance the world might be a skinnier place if more people did

This thread needs a picture.

[img] [/img]

on balance the world might be a skinnier place if more people did

I'm not so sure. I see a lot of fat people drinking diet coke. There could be something interesting in that.. maybe not.

With all due respect, as I know you've bad huge problems but why on earth do you have to self-medicate

Hypothyroidism is a lot easier to measure than it is to treat. Some cases are treatable with drug A, whilst other cases will respond to a combination of drugs B and C. It can also take a long time to find a treatment that works. We are talking about a chronic condition that requires regular monitoring for the rest of your life.

I think what c_g is alluding to is that some doctors do not have the time or inclination to properly address thyroid conditions, and so just look up the "Dummy's Guide To Thyroid Conditions" for instructions.

I've seen the figure of 2% of the population having a thyroid disorder. Many people are fine with the right meds. I have an uncommon type and self-medicate with drugs I buy from outside the UK. Despite a family history, I was not listened to by GPs.

DrP

Dr p. forgive me but are you a real doctor?

If so. Any opinions on the herbalife products?

The reason I ask is that they are not available through retail outlets. Only distributors. Reminds me of the way Avon do things.

Cheers
Gary

I think what c_g is alluding to is that some doctors do not have the time or inclination to properly address thyroid conditions, and so just look up the "Dummy's Guide To Thyroid Conditions" for instructions.

Dr P is a real doctor.

solo, do you know what 'peer review' means? and first hand, not some bullshit internet man in pub version?

Cheers junkyard

Sounded like he was from his post but thought it safer to ask anyway so as not to offend.

My 2p's worth, I think we all have addictive personalities when it comes to eating / not eating.

Some go down the route of eating too much, and once your on that slope its a slippery one, some go down the route only eating certain carrots whilst standing on one leg (because thats the healthy thing to do)

The reality is probably some where in between, but in STW you have to be the one eating the carrot whilst standing on one leg (Im not convinced thats any better for you in the long run!)

Surely if people have medical reason for being over weight (ie Thyroid) then once diagnosed and treated the weight comes off?? Certainly thats what happened in my Fathers case.

Its all in the mind..

[i]some have perfect skin and other go bald early.[/i]

Yes! What's really unfair is if you're slim and attractive like me, *then* all your hair falls out. Is god having a laugh? I could be cavorting with supermodels if it was down to my physique but then he makes me go slaphead and gives me eyes so crap I need some telescopes to see across the room.

I tell you what he's getting a ruddy good punch in the chuff when I see him.

[i]solo, do you know what 'peer review' means? and first hand, not some bullshit internet man in pub version? [/i]

Firstly, calm down.

Secondly, ask yourself if your time might be better spent proving me right, rather than trying to hassle me. After all, any proof you can find, that stands up to your personal scrutiny, will serve you better than anything you'll get from me.

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

Yes why waste all those years of study when they can just google for answers..the internet is always right etc.

Junkyard, before this digresses too much, I'm speaking from personal experience. At the practice I attend, only one of the GPs who I have seen for my hypothyroidism has ever done anything other than throw more of the generic treatment at me.

[url= http://rt.com/usa/obesity-homeless-study-rise-025/ ]One in three homeless people in Boston are clinically obese[/url]

Thought I'd throw that one out there for the wealthy/not wealthy protagonists.

Firstly, calm down.

You do seem to get somewhat agitated on diet threads ..do any foods have a calming effect?

SLATFATF

There's a lot more to artificial sweeteners than simply tasting sweet without the calories of sugar. There is growing evidence that artificial sweeteners can cause craving for real sugar.
Also, next time you look at the ingredients on full sugar fizzy drinks, note that a lot of them use 'glucose-fructose syrup' which has other names, including 'modified corn syrup'. Unlike glucose, it is not a natural sugar and again, there is a growing body of evidence that it is partly responsible for causing obesity.

Also, aside from the weight issue, certain fizzy drinks (eg, diet coke) are associated with increased risk of osteoporosis. And they are hellish bad for your teeth!

I see a lot of fat people drinking diet coke.

+1 to Vickypea. There is a strong argument that diet coke still conditions your brain to want sweet things. Evidence that consumption leads to weight gain is patchy, but most diet diary type studies produce weak results.

Continuing my crusade against glucose-fructose syrup....
It's used as a cheap sweetener in loads of foods, much like corn starch is used as a cheap bulking agent. They tend to be in cheaper foods, so people who don't have a lot of money are potentially more exposed to them.
At best, they have no nutritional value, at worst they may do harm.

I see a lot of fat people drinking diet coke. There could be something interesting in that.. maybe not.

Keep up molly. Diet coke dissolves calories. Everyone know that, silly! Which is why this capacity is so often utlised for washing down all-you-can-eat lunchtime Pizza Hut binges and Supersized Big Mac Meals

Its how I maintain my rippling torso, despite my pie intake. like so....

[img] [/img]

Binners.
I thought you weren't allowed to post pictures of yourself, and cavorting with a soft drink too !
😯

Anyway, forget the obese. Wont anyone think of the share holders ?

The problem is that school's have gone soft and stopped bullying.

Loads less fat kids when you could pick on them, and now they've grown up thinking it's acceptable to be fat, bred, and encouraged their kids to be porkers.

It's not acceptable to get cancer from smoking, liver disease from drinking, so why is pointing out pie-itis against their human rights?

Probably PC gone mad.

[u]One in three homeless people in Boston are clinically obese[/u]

Thought I'd throw that one out there for the wealthy/not wealthy protagonists.

Fast food is dirt cheap (in the US), and the sugar content very quickly makes you feel good (sugar high?). I can see the appeal, if you've been begging on the streets for hours.

It's not like the hobos have a full kitchen at their disposal to cook fresh meals?

Binners - is that a tattoo of a young Judy Garland on your bicep?

Thought I'd throw that one out there for the wealthy/not wealthy protagonists.

Also, next time you look at the ingredients on full sugar fizzy drinks, note that a lot of them use 'glucose-fructose syrup'

Mostly in the US I think. There almost all 'soda' is made with HFCC, which tastes a bit yucky unless you drink it in a big cup with loads of ice, where it's actually pretty refreshing. That's why Diet Coke etc are so popular for home drinking from cans, because it tastes sweeter. They make some kind of retro Pepsi and another lemonadey thing with real sugar and this is marketed as a big deal.

There's a political background to this too - the US used to get a lot of sugar from Cuba, but they got cut off with the revolution. The corn farmers association is an enormously powerful lobby group. And guess what - sugar has import taxes stuck on it, to make corn syrup look cheap!

hmmmm, wonder if US citizen could sue their favored ( ) fast food outlet for making them ill

[i] I see a lot of fat people drinking diet coke[/i]

play the game grips, you can't have it both ways, you go from people are individual and respond differently to food, or you make generalisations like that one.

Make your mind up.

HFCC has been shown to make rats fat, alterning the amount of food which they eat:

[url= http://www.princeton.edu/main/news/archive/S26/91/22K07/ ]Princeton Uni[/url]

Molgrips- I also thought it was mostly in the US, but was shocked to see it listed on the can of a drink here in the UK recently. I'm going to have a snoop at a few labels when I'm next in the supermarket 🙂

play the game grips, you can't have it both ways, you go from people are individual and respond differently to food, or you make generalisations like that one.

Nono, it's not a generalisation - just an observation. I should have made that clear. I don't know if more fat people drink diet coke than skinny people; I also don't know if it's cause or effect, as in "Oh shit I'm fat, better switch to diet drinks".

I was thinking more of a conversational leader to see if anyone knows of research about sweetners, but given the context I can see how it would come across as the kind of crap logic I detest 🙂

However even if diet drinks do make you fat, it's not at odds with my previous comments about people being different. As a general rule, junk food does make you fat, but the amount of fat from a given amount of junk food ranges from 0 to loads.

What tyre for...

[img] [/img]

Stomm! Is being a comic-reading nerd a disease?

I also thought it was mostly in the US, but was shocked to see it listed on the can of a drink here in the UK recently. I'm going to have a snoop at a few labels when I'm next in the supermarket

HFCS contains glucose and fructose, and it's the high levels of fructose that are controversial. It is metabolised differently to glucose and there is some thought that it is more easily converted to fat, and that it may suppress the feeling of satiety by inhibiting leptin.
Of course this is not totally proven at the moment, but what is apparent is that more sugar is being consumed than before, given that HFCS appears all over the place.

Interestingly, lots of websites defending HFCS are appearing. Probably the food and drink industry?

Recently lost ~12kg and gone from being obese to just plain fat, perhaps being kind, no one I explain my weight loss to believes I was ever obese. I was though and feel much healthier now.

All I have done is stop eating the food I grew up being told was good for me- spuds and pies and stop eating the food they is heavily advertised- chocolate and biscuits etc and stopped eating any food unless I was actually hungry.

I seem to have cured myself of obesity perhaps I can sell it to the NHS.

With all due respect, as I know you've bad huge problems but why on earth do you have to self-medicate. Surely if they have now identified the problem, you should be treated within he NHS. Sorry if I missed part of he saga but I'm genuinely interested as my Mother is borderline under-active thyroid.

I know you've been cagey about it in the past c-g, but I really would be interred to know the name of the drug you are having to buy, as t4 and t3 are both available on the NHS.

OK, I'll try to explain. In the UK the thyroid is tested by means of the TSH (thyroid stimulating hormone)test and a measurement of over 10 is considered to indicate hypothyroidism.

In Europe and the USA, the measurement has been reduced to 2.5.

My TSH was under 10 and was told that I wasn't hypothyroid despite having many of the symptoms. Apparently I was depressed and I strongly disagreed with this. Then I was told I was menopausal to which my reply was 'check my records'.

Now to the science bit ... the TSH test has been questioned by many physicians who claim that this test will not show if you are converting enough T4 into T3, or your thyroid is being attacked by antibodies, or you have T3 receptor resistance, or you are suffering from adrenal insufficiency, or you're deficient in minerals and vitamins that are essential for thyroid health.

So ... despite at my worst sleeping for 12 hours at night and sleeping again during the day, walking up or down stairs exhausting me, having a croaky voice and brain fog being so bad that I couldn't string two words together, giving up riding, it was not due to my thyroid because the TSH test said my bloods were 'normal'. Clinical symptoms were completely ignored.

I knew I was hypothyroid and did persuade a GP to prescribe a month's supply of thyroxine but it was only the lowest dose. I actually felt worse then was informed that it definitely wasn't my thyroid, was pointless increasing the dose and taking it for longer.

Dr P - yes, thyroxine and T3 are available on the NHS but any Endocronologist has to follow NHS guidelines and that includes a maximum dosage level. I understand (from those bloomin' internet forums) that some GPs are not happy to monitor patients taking T3, let alone taking into account the high cost and do indeed refuse. I do buy my own T3.

Going back to the original topic, as can be seen from my comments I do believe that the reason for some of the obesity is undiagnosed thyroid disease.

My brain hurts now but do hope that this makes sense! Happy to answer any questions. 🙂

Can I just make the point that self-medicating was a last resort for me. This was only done following a (private) comprehensive range of blood tests that had been carried out together with considerable research and ongoing self-monitoring.

The estimate is that around 15% of thyroid sufferers do not do well on thyroxine.

Re the thyroid thing. I don't think anyone really doubts there are obesity cases caused by this. I think people are just wondering what percentage of obese people have their weight gain caused by a thyroid problem.

I have no figures, but anecdotal evidence suggests that the percentage is fairly small.

I don't think anyone is looking down on overweight people either. However classifying something as a disease when, for the majority of people, it is a lifestyle choice reduces their chances of ever doing anything about it.

....and a measurement of over 10 is considered to indicate hypothyroidism.

Hmm.... Not strictly true c-g, though.
True it (TSH figure) won't show if you have auto antibodies, hence the TPA test.
T4 and free T3 are also very easily tested levels - I'm forever requesting them...
Plus, the TSH/T4/T3 feedback cycle can be seen as complicated, but a simple understanding of it demystifies it....
TSH can be elevated for a variety of reasons - hypo or hyper thyroid.

I'm not asking you to go into any more details about your health on here, though I really am interested as to the local failings in your management, requiring you to buy a drug prescribed (quite easily) by the NHS, unless the NHS/NICE disagrees with its prescribing in the first place?

DrP

I don't think anyone is looking down on overweight people either.

They are, just read STW!

TSH 10 mU/L or less

How should I manage someone with subclinical hypothyroidism who has a thyroid-stimulating hormone (TSH) level of 10 mU/L or less?

Confirm by repeat testing of thyroid stimulating hormone (TSH) and free thyroxine (FT4) levels, with the addition of measurement of thyroid peroxidase antibodies (TPO-Ab), 3–6 months after the original result.

Levothyroxine treatment is not routinely recommended.

Consider offering levothyroxine treatment if:

The person has a goitre.

Their TSH level is rising.

The woman is pregnant or planning pregnancy (see Scenario : Preconception or pregnant).

Consider offering a trial of treatment if the person has symptoms compatible with hypothyroidism.

Prescribe treatment for a sufficient length of time to be able to judge whether there is symptomatic benefit, see Prescribing information.

Only continue treatment if there is a clear improvement in symptoms.

If treatment is continued, once stable, measure TSH annually and alter the levothyroxine dose to maintain the TSH level within the reference range.

If treatment is not offered, it is still necessary to monitor thyroid function to detect progression to overt hypothyroidism.

If the person has serum TPO-Abs, measure serum TSH and FT4 annually, or earlier if symptoms develop.

Otherwise, measure serum TSH and FT4 approximately every 3 years, or earlier if symptoms develop.

Current NICE guidance.
I'd be testing T3 too.

Bear in mind this guidance ONLY applies if the T4 or T3 are low I.e. all figures need to be considered in relation to one another.
As mentioned, a high TSH and raised T4 indicatd HYPERTHYROID...

DrP

1. A pathological condition of a part, organ, or system of an organism resulting from various causes, such as infection, genetic defect, or environmental stress, and characterized by an identifiable group of signs or symptoms.
2. A condition or tendency, as of society, regarded as abnormal and harmful.
3. Obsolete Lack of ease; trouble.

2. A condition or tendency, as of society, regarded as abnormal and harmful.

Hmmmm - that one muddys the water a bit.

obesity is sometimes caused by a legitimate, underlying condition, eg underactive thyroid. no argument from me!

obesity is sometimes caused purely by being a coke-drinking, pie-eating lazy-bones.

by saying obesity is a disease, you are saying that the pie-eater has a disease. which they don't.

Therefore obesity is not a disease and if you say it is you are wrong. and an idiot.

notmyrealname and solo are correct. cinammon girl has valid points but is kind of missing the point. I suggest she rereads the question.

Try this one on for size

mickolas - Member

[s]obesity[/s] cancer is sometimes caused by a legitimate, underlying condition!

[s]obesity [/s]cancer is sometimes caused by smoking or other lifestyle choices

by saying [s]obesity[/s] cancer is a disease, you are saying that the smoker has a disease. which they don't.

It's all getting a bit Good AIDS/Bad AIDS this.

glupton - being obese is not a condition or tendecy regarded as abnormal. it is a measurement. overeating is a tendency. underactive thyroid is a condition.

by saying obesity is a condition, you are saying that most of those large, very fit rugy player types have an abnormal condition.

you could argue that being fit IS abnormal....or that being very fat is NOT abnormal, given apparently one third of the US population qualifies...

by saying obesity is a disease, you are saying that the pie-eater has a disease. which they don't.

Alcohol and (other) drug addictions are also classified as diseases, in both cases the solution is obvious: stop taking the drug(s). Somehow reality is a little more complicated.

by saying obesity is a condition, you are saying that most of those large, very fit rugy player types have an abnormal condition.

No, because noone is saying that professional rugby players are obese, it's commonly recognised that BMI scores aren't valid for certain edge cases. (Although their fitness levels are "abnormal", of course).

I used to be massively fat, this was because I drank and ate crap and was lazy and ill disciplined. I realised I was lazy and ill disciplined and sorted it out (I'm still overweight, but I'm still heading in the right direction). If obesity was classified as a disease I may have not been as motivated to find my own solution to the problem I had.

northwind - the pie-eater can fix their situation without recourse to any medication. Can the cancer patient?

anyway, cancer happens when the body is NOT functioning normally. obesity sometimes happens when the bodies systems are functioning perfectly - hence no disease.

unrelated, but there is a theory that cancer is simply a dietary deficiency. look up 'world without cancer'. just remember that it's not MY theory.

you are saying that most of those large, very fit rugy player types have an abnormal condition.

Like arguing a power lifter is normal

not sure either has a disease though

mogrim you are wrong. obesity is one of the classifications on the bmi scale. that is how it is defined!

as for your other point: addiction may or may not be a disease(mental); being drunk or stoned are certainly not diseases. I hope you understand the distinction.

mogrim you are wrong. obesity is one of the classifications on the bmi scale. that is how it is defined!

That's [b]part [/b]of the definition, not the whole definition, and it's widely acknowledged that BMI isn't directly applicable in all cases.

as for your other point: addiction may or may not be a disease(mental); being drunk or stoned are certainly not diseases. I hope you understand the distinction.

Being drunk or stoned every now and then are obviously not diseases, and I have never said they were. But that's not what I was talking about, I was talking about addictions.

(And incidentally, that "world without cancer" thing is a huge pile of quackery, as [i]I'm sure[/i] you knew).

mickolas - Member

addiction may or may not be a disease(mental); being drunk or stoned are certainly not diseases.

Liver disease caused by alcohol is a disease, regardless of whether you're an addict or not. The reason for the disease doesn't signify. Disease doesn't care what caused it.

mickolas - Member

northwind - the pie-eater can fix their situation without recourse to any medication.

Can they? Can the smoker just stop smoking? And why would you think it makes any difference? You can get better from many diseases without treatment.