is my macbook dead?

google reseting PRAM, though you might have trouble finding instructions for a vintage laptop. It sounds like it's had a good run though!

If you have all your stuff backed up to dropbox / gdrive or something, could you flatten it with a fresh OS install and go from there?
Done the PRam and SMC reset?

The backup is most important though or you'll lose your stuff....

Done the PRam and SMC reset?

just done those by following the video thanks.  slightly different in that i do get the 'chimes' that it says to wait for, but then all roads lead to that web address and flashing question mark again, it never boots into safe mode or does anything else at all.

thanks

EDIT:  just found https://support.apple.com/en-gb/102655

before i delve any further i think ill wait til i get home and try backing up to an external drive first.

Potentially a knackered HDD.

not sure why it would want me to connect to wifi first anyway, id have thought a safe mode would just boot up and then i keep connecting/opening things until theres a problem?

Command+R isn’t safe mode, it’s Recovery Mode where it tries to re-install the OS for you, possibly needs to connect to the internet to download files for this?
https://support.apple.com/en-gb/102655

The question mark means the OS can't be found or can't be loaded. Might be a faulty OS or knackered HD.

https://support.apple.com/en-gb/102601

https://support.apple.com/en-gb/guide/mac-help/mh21245/mac

https://support.apple.com/en-gb/116946

Oh and you can find the model of your Mac from the serial number which is on the underside.

https://support.apple.com/en-gb/103257

Target Mode is another option to access the HD (or check if it's operational) but you need another Mac for that

https://support.apple.com/en-gb/guide/mac-help/mchlp1443/mac

I can't remember what generation of Macs started encrypting the HDD with your Apple ID (possibly 2016 onwards so maybe later than yours) but I know on mine it won't let you access anything without the correct password. Anyway, that's why it wants a wifi connection.

If it boots to that wifi selection screen there's a reasonable chance it's fixable, though. Hopefully just a new hard drive, and if it's 10+ years old that actually might be possible without too much difficulty. IIRC there's an option on that screen to boot from a USB drive so you could plausibly do an OS install on an external drive to test that theory.

This is why computer fixing shops exist, though.

That's the "off you pop and buy a new M3 Macbook Air screen"! 🙂

That’s the “off you pop and buy a new M3 Macbook Air screen”!

Yes that's what I did this year (well M2) to replace my 2014 MacBook.

it's going to be a disc failure if it's a spinning disc and that age.  design life of most HD's is only about 5 years.

That’s the “off you pop and buy a new [s]M3 Macbook Air[/s] Chromebook screen”! 😀

FTFMe.

Thanks, yes it looks like a trip to the Apple shop (after backing up), but i wont be buying a new Apple, i only used this one cos it was free. hashtag cheapskate 😀

cheers

other than take it into a shop, can anyone suggest anything else to try?

Yes, I have a vintage MacBook Pro from 2012 or so. They have a known issue with the ribbon cable that connects the HD to the master board. It basically deteriorates with use and fails so that the Mac can no longer read the hard drive. If that's the issue, it's a cheap and simple fix - lots of info via google, part available on amazon and eBay.

You can always remove the hard drive, mount it in an external enclosure and see if the Mac will boot from that, which would tend to confirm that it's the ribbon cable, but for the price of a cable, you might as well just swap it and see if that fixes it.

Fwiw - sat here in a mid-2012 MBP with lots of RAM and an SSD - they seem remarkably resilient still for most day-to-day use. Hope that's maybe some help.

if there's another Mac you can use to create a bootable USB drive you can try that, to determine whether it is a HDD problem or not!

https://support.apple.com/en-gb/101578

I have a much older MBP which I upgraded to SSD years ago, still works (although no longer updatable obviously!)

One other thing to add - it's not that long ago we replaced a 2013? MacBook.  The hardware was solid and they were much more repairable than modern Macs.  You need a really good quality screwdriver of the right tiny size to remove all the base screws, but after that replacing the spinning disc with a solid state drive wasn't that difficult and it ran really well

Issue now might be finding and installing an appropriate old operating system but if the hardware is still good it's at least worth considering if you're on a budget.

Probably worth investigating wether any ‘fresh’ install of operating system for that hardware would still be in support.

Probably worth investigating wether any ‘fresh’ install of operating system for that hardware would still be in support.

I haven't tried it, but the documentation for Recovery Mode suggests you can download the original OS that came with your machine (or the closest available) rather than only being able to use the latest version (which definitely would not be compatible with a 13 year old machine!)

thanks all.

just been to my trusty 'emergency big bag of every cable under the sun for that occasion when you really need it' and wouldnt you know it, no simple usb to usb 😀

i was going to connect the macbook to my work pc and see if the work pc read the macbooks HD.  is that how id 'back up' anything i want to keep?  cant do it now anyway til i find a cable from somewhere, so could be a few days.  once ive backed up what i can (or not as the case may be) ill try and get my hands on the correct screwdriver and have a look inside at replacing the ribbon.

thanks again

If the ribbon cable is the issue, you won't be able to read the hard drive with a USB cable anyway I think, you'd need to remove the hard drive and put it in an external enclosure to do that as it's the cable that connects the drive to the rest of the Mac that could be dead.

This is the ifixit guide for a mid-2012 13" one. It's pretty straighforward. I've done it twice now, both times had the same symptoms as you, so I reckon it could well be the same thing. You can source the parts for a fair bit less than ifixit charge btw, try amazon or eBay:

https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/MacBook+Pro+13-Inch+Unibody+Mid+2012+Hard+Drive+Cable+Replacement/10379

I haven’t tried it, but the documentation for Recovery Mode suggests you can download the original OS that came with your machine (or the closest available) rather than only being able to use the latest version (which definitely would not be compatible with a 13 year old machine!)

I was referring more to an older unsupported operating system being a very bad thing to use.

If you can’t use a supported operating system on this hardware then recycle it. There is just to much pain with security holes.

then put password in but the passwords always wrong. ive tried my account password, the wifi password, my brothers old password, but it just either rejects it or keeps spinning the wheel of doom.

I’d guess that the problem here may be what @superficial suggested. you need the firmware encryption password to first unencrypt the disk. https://support.apple.com/en-us/102384

When the firmware password is turned on, each time you start up from macOS Recovery or from a storage device other than the one selected in Startup Disk settings, you need to enter the firmware password.

https://support.apple.com/en-gb/guide/mac-help/mchl338cf9a8

Do you have an administrator account on your machine? Or have you given your daily user account admin, even root, access rights? Even in a single user setting this is not good practice.

Maybe book a Genius Bar appointment? Those folks are very helpful.

Good luck.

If you can’t use a supported operating system on this hardware then recycle it. There is just to much pain with security holes.

‘…to [sic] much pain’? Really?

is that how id ‘back up’ anything i want to keep?

Not if the disk is encrypted. And the time for backups is before disaster strikes. Not after. PCs don’t usually read APFS or MAC OS extended file formats. There may be utilities available to enable this?

If you can get into recovery mode proper and the hard drive is not toast then using disk utility and fixing the disk or reinstalling the OS does not usually eliminate user files. At least not ime with Intel Macs.

If you’re resistant to going to the Genius Bar then getting someone with an intel Mac to create an external boot disk with a suitable OS like @zilog6128 suggested might give you a usable machine.

Having said that, the advice given earlier to buy a new MacBook Air or similar is good. This machine has had a long life. New Apple silicon machines have much better performance.

thanks for the continued help and advice, much appreciated.

ive been looking to see if i can give a bit more info on the machine, but this site's so frustrating at the minute, cant look back at my old forum posts where i gave all the information on an old 'what charger do i need' post.  google doesnt bring it up either.

the tiny writing on the back suggests its an A1502 (2012-2015) and googling this model rings a bell with 'retina  OS'.

ive never updated it as when i get prompts and try it, it always says not enough room.  and ive always been loathe to remove any of my brothers old stuff on his account in case it syncs with his current account and he loses stuff.  probably wrong, but there you go.  if there IS an administrator then itd be him, but hes given me his passwords and they dont work, but as you say, could be an encryption password needed.

just googled 'genius bar' and looks like thats a 'live chat' type thing yes?  so good idea, ill try them later.

and thanks @BadlyWiredDog for that ifixit link, altho it suggets a phillips screwdriver, think mine looks to need a 5 pointed driver.

and yeah, new pc is probably going to be the end result but itd just be a chromebook, dont want an apple really, i only use this cos it was a gift.  only ever use the internet or the odd excel/ google sheet.

cheers

EDIT:  just seen Genius Bar assistance for hardware is actually a visit to the shop, so ill see about an appointment.

You might not need a new PC yet. Per above, the question mark just means the hard drive is not available. Could be the drive, could be the ribbon, could be the motherboard (but since you boot this far it's more likely to be ribbon or drive I would say). The last Mac I worked on was about 2010 I think, but they are pretty easy to replace things like hard drive. I would suggest buying something like this (check it's for the right model):

https://www.ifixit.com/en-gb/products/macbook-and-macbook-pro-non-retina-ssd-upgrade-kit

and put in a new, larger, hard drive. Then install a fresh OS and away you go. I think that kit comes with an external caddy so you can put your old drive into that and use it as an external drive to try to recover data.

Course, at some point you're going to bump up against OS support issues, but you prob have a few years before it becomes too much of an issue depending how you use the laptop.

thanks mate.  not sure i want to spunk half the price of a new chromebook on keeping this ancient beast going, but i'll see how it goes.

im booked in for a quick inspection in town this morning, i'll let you know how it goes.

cheers

@sadexpunk - carry on the sobriety and you’ll have more money available to spend on things you actually need!

@sadexpunk – carry on the sobriety and you’ll have more money available to spend on things you actually need!

haha thanks mate.  granddaughters got us booked in for one of those bottomless brunches early november for her birthday, so i'll have a drink then, but certainly cutting right back on it.

A1502 would be this.  Says something about quality and usability that they're still selling for £200

https://www.ndc.co.uk/laptops/others/apple-macbook-pro-13-a1502-late-2013-i5-2-6ghz-8gb-256gb-b-grade.html

Given how long they're properly usable for and how well they hold their value Apple laptops really are better value than anything else and are going to give a way better espeirnce that a Chromebook

Backmarket  £5-600 for a 2020 M1 Air

Apple - £900 for the same but new (I've never seen or heard of an apple refurb that had any signs of use.  they're open box effectively)

Ah nice one, I'll consider that one if this dies thanks.

Just in town now waiting for them to 'fix it' hopefully. They reckon it's definitely software and they can just wipe everything and start again. £50 for the privilege so if they do then that's a fair price.

It was funny really....."what's your apple ID?"  "I don't know" "ah no worries, it'll be on your iPhone" "I don't have one" "ah ok, do you have any other apple products at all?" "No" "oh, so you've nothing in the cloud?" "No"..... Looked at me like I was from another planet ?

So I think they're just going to create a fresh ID for me and I start from scratch. I'll be happy with that if so for £50.

Just hanging about town for an hour on the off chance it's a quick fix, they said it may need to go away but it won't cost extra, so.....fingers crossed.

Cheers

£900 for the same but new (I’ve never seen or heard of an apple refurb that had any signs of use.  they’re open box effectively)

100% – I've bought several for our business from the refurb store and every single one has been 100% perfect.

‘…to [sic] much pain’? Really?

@prettygreenparrot

Yes really, how many cyber incidents have you had to mop up?

Course, at some point you’re going to bump up against OS support issues, but you prob have a few years before it becomes too much of an issue depending how you use the laptop.

OS support on that one has effectively already ended. Doubly so as the drive is almost full.

update.  after around 24 hrs of an 'ENR update', apparently its just above halfway through.  "we'll keep you informed throughout the day".

mean anything to anyone?  i struggle to understand why a software update could take that long but what do i know.....

Yes really, how many cyber incidents have you had to mop up?

On our home Macs since starting with Apple machines since ~2004? 0. Though to your point only a couple of those got to the point of being beyond updates and then only for a year or so each before replacement.

Not denying the general problems of hacks, cracks, and malware @peterno51 and to your point I'd err on the side of encouraging home users to be more 'on it' with updates and the like - given the common 'I stored all my data on this external hard drive - that's a backup isn't it' confusion. But, aside from the potential loss of irreplaceable memories and vital personal data, and as long as it works, using outdated tech without much of a safety net is to be expected for casual users. A risk-based approach I suppose.

mean anything to anyone?

never heard of an “ENR update”. Maybe it’s code for “we need more time to figure it out before we give up & have to refund you”

Still updating so they're sending it off to be looked at.  They say no extra cost so they'll hopefully stand by that.

well, not impressed with apple at all.  a week or so of chasing it up and being told no news, no news, they finally told me today that "ah yes, ive just clicked a diagnostics tab that only we can see.  your SSD (i think) and battery are kaput, so itll be on its way back to us as we dont have the parts."

"ah ok so do i get my £50 refunded then?"

"no, thats non-refundable.  its a fee for us sending it away"

"yes but i didnt pay for you to send it away.  i said i didnt want to pay any money as i suspected it was a hardware failure, and you talked me into paying £50 to fix it as it was 'definitely software that could be wiped and reinstalled'".

"yes but thats what the charge is for sending it away"

"i wasnt bothered about it going away. you said it was definitely software and youd update it for me, maybe take about an hour.  then when it kept taking too long you told me it may need sending away to be sorted but there wouldnt be any extra charge, so i said ok.  but you havent fixed it"

"we dont have those parts as its obsolete now, but a local pc shop may be able to fix it"

"im not too bothered about that, id assumed it was dead anyway, i just thought nothing to lose by you telling me that for my peace of mind.  however, you said it was definitely software and youd fix it for £50"

"you signed a sheet to say you were happy with it going away"

"i WAS happy for it to go away, and be fixed for £50.  but you havent done that, youve mis-diagnosed it in the shop and taken £50 off me.  even if youd said it might be hardware and is probably dead id have walked away and scrapped it"

aaaaaaand going round in circles.

Is that from a proper Apple shop? Crap if so. (Though I’ve never actually used one, so could be par for the course!)

Is that from a proper Apple shop?

its 'Select Lincoln', the Apple experts that i think i contacted through the 'genius bar' links in google.  not sure how apple support works, maybe a franchise?

EDIT:  just looked, says 'authorised service provider'.  https://uk.selectonline.com/

Ok, not Apple then. Their reviews are pretty crap if you google. We have one similar locally (Stormfront). They are just salespeople, don’t know much technically & have to send everything away. Wouldn’t use personally! (Not much help now obvs)

hmmmm thats a shame.   just been researching  what i could have done if id gone down the official apple route.  went to apple site as tho i needed a repair, followed the links to sending it away to them and found myself on a page that prompted me to find out if a shop was an 'independent repair provider' or 'apple authorised service provider'.  my shop appear to be the latter, and reading the bumph at the bottom then i really would have expected a better service as the techs receive apple training and are 'backed by apple'.  not sure i could have done much else besides use this shop really, as it was the apple site that led me to them.

While it's a bit disappointing that the messaging was off and it's £50 wasted, it's not outrageous.  It's a laptop that's over 10 years old - way outside any warranty - and someone's spent quite a bit of time fiddling with it, and shipping it somewhere, for £50 - the labour you've had on it was worth more than that.

Apple themselves, if you go into an actual Apple Store - would probably have meant you didn't have to pay the £50

ah yes, ive just clicked a diagnostics tab that only we can see. your SSD (i think) and battery are kaput,

I wonder whether only the actual Apple Store has access to that diagnostic. It's always seemed 'off' that theres are diagnostics like this that aren't available to the end user.  But I had the same when the Fusion Drive failed on an old iMac.  I couldn't get any useful messages out of it, but the Apple Store were able to say that the spinning disc part of the drive had failed but the rest was OK.

Select are the absolute worst I would these days always travel to a proper Apple store worth the pain for the proper service.

Since Stormfront were mentioned, I’ll just pipe up that the Bristol Stormfront fixed Mrs Lex’s MBP at a fair price, with reasonable speed (it was during late 2020) when Apple quoted a price around 2/3 of the replacement cost.

it’s not outrageous.  It’s a laptop that’s over 10 years old – way outside any warranty – and someone’s spent quite a bit of time fiddling with it, and shipping it somewhere, for £50 – the labour you’ve had on it was worth more than that.

yeah not arguing with that, the issue is i suspected it was knackered (from advice on here) so didnt want to spend a single penny on diagnosing.  it was only the fact that they were certain it was software and they could fix it that made me part with £50 thinking thats not bad for a fix.  if theyd even hinted at possible hardware itd have gone straight in the bin.

Select are the absolute worst I would these days always travel to a proper Apple store worth the pain for the proper service.

dont think theres a proper apple shop in town, the apple site itself led me to these, so i think this was the best i could get for a quick confirmation of a fubarred macbook.

cheers

well ive picked it up from store.  whereas i previously mentioned they said they were doing an ENR, id misheard on the phone and it was actually E&R if that means anything to anyone.  obviously didnt work tho, and they still wouldnt refund me 😀

so.... its a scrapper.  or is it?  i thought id ring up a small local shop that do a bit of IT for us at work and ask their advice.  ive left it with them, theyre going to price up a SSD and battery and get back to me.  im interested to see how it compares to fix it vs that refurbed A1502 @b33k34 linked to on first page.

i get that the quality of a refurbed/fixed ancient macbook will still be better quality than a new chromebook say, but would i just be spending money on something that cant be updated or kept secure cos software/OS is obsolete?  not that ive struggled so far i suppose.

cheers

Rather than splashing on a large SSD, I put 250GB SSD to replace the old HD having the same message some years ago, now you can pick one up for less than £20. My intention was if it worked then I'd splash out on a larger SSD. I never got around to it as it only gets used to watch Netflix etc. Last year I had issues with unsupported browsers as they were too old to run Netflix. Then I found OSLegacy Patcher and put the last OS that was running on Intel Macs. It works well enough to watch videos, but I know I'm on borrowed time before all the browsers become unsupported.

 Last year I had issues with unsupported browsers as they were too old to run Netflix. Then I found OSLegacy Patcher and put the last OS that was running on Intel Macs. It works well enough to watch videos, but I know I’m on borrowed time before all the browsers become unsupported.

hmmm i actually hadnt considered that.  its ok a small IT shop putting in a new SSD maybe, but what do i load onto it, and will it support chrome/firefox etc?

i'll wait to see what they can do, and if they reckon they can sort it fairly cheaply i'll ask the question.

well theyve just rang me and confirmed apples diagnosis, dead battery (ballooning cells) and dead SSD.

theyve told me that usually theyd charge £140ish for a new battery, and around £75 for an SSD, but as we use them for work professionally, theyll just charge me for the battery and stick an SSD in from one of their refurbed machines or somethings, so total cost to get it back working would be £140.

sounds reasonable, but he did explain that it may only just last another 18 months or so before apple make the software unusable (monterey i think he said?).  he did explain how and why that happened but i didnt really understand it.  he was honest enough to tell me that its a fairly short term fix to give me time to sort another machine out.

he also said that he'd stick me a few free programmes on too, and that it may actually work in my favour not having an apple ID, id just be using basic software, not needing to sync anything.

the macbook lives on!  for now 😀

FWIW, I had a 2012 MBP running Chrome and a 250gb ssd it was perfect. I only updated as I needed a stable and reliable MS TEams as that wasnt being supported on the old OS.

250gb was plenty with GDrive / Dropbox..

but he did explain that it may only just last another 18 months or so before apple make the software unusable (monterey i think he said?).  he did explain how and why that happened but i didnt really understand it.

it won't suddenly stop working, but the software has already been discontinued in the sense that there won't be any more updates for it (so some newer apps might not work, and some websites fail to load - probably not now, but at some point in the future), and crucially no more security updates, so they'd be no protection from new malware/viruses/exploits etc.

Whether any of this is a big deal or not really depends on what you're using it for!

he did explain that it may only just last another 18 months or so before apple make the software unusable (monterey i think he said?).

Not a brilliant explanation. Apple are not going to make anything unusable. Security update for Monterey are ceasing Nov 2024. The world will not end. Eventually (like in several years) Safari will likely stop supporting the latest security that might stop you accessing your banks website. 99% of websites will work fine. You can probably extend a bit further by using Chrome or Firefox.

he also said that he’d stick me a few free programmes on too, and that it may actually work in my favour not having an apple ID, id just be using basic software, not needing to sync anything.

Sounds legit.

Stupid forum duplicate post issues - deleted.

Whether any of this is a big deal or not really depends on what you’re using it for!

99% of websites will work fine. You can probably extend a bit further by using Chrome or Firefox.

yep, pretty much just be using these.  i never updated the mac all the years i had it as it always said there wasnt room to do so, so im happy enough to just see how long it lasts.

Sounds legit.

haha ill check what they are, but i think he just meant stuff like chrome/firefox etc.

thanks

it lives!!

just picked it up and am currently typing this on it.  £145 has got me up and running again with new SSD and battery,  for how long who knows.....

and just for my reference if i need the details again, OS is monterey and the macbook is apparently a 'retina 13 inch early 2015'.

its taken an hour or so to find my passwords to log in to my email accounts and find out how to reverse the scrolling etc but its good to have it back.  the almost new touchscreen windows work laptop i was using just doesnt cut it 😉

i dont have an apple ID, i shant be using any of their apps, just browsing on chrome with firefox as a back up.  im a man of simple needs 🙂

thanks for all of your advice on the way to getting here.