You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
You lot seem good at this sort of thing, and I'm shite at it.
I have an investment split between two funds with The Big Exchange, £10k in each. One's lost £750 since 2023, one's gained £200. Prior to that they were in another fund with Triodos, which lost about £200 between 2020 and 2023. In all that time, the value of any of the funds has never exceeded what I originally put in and the general trend has been downwards. The was a point when the Big Exchange funds dropped £3k at one point but it seemed to be a month long blip related to Trump's original tariff announcement and went back up to just below the original amount two weeks later and then flatlined again.
This is really money for later in life - I don't need it now, and I've only withdrawn money once - when I switched from Triodos to The Big Exchange. So, I'd like to see it go up in value. Meanwhile, I have an Ecology Building Society account that'll pay 5% guaranteed interest.
The key thing here is that I want my money to be invested ethically - I won't compromise with a fund that isn't ethical. My pension is in an ethical fund and that's doing fine. With this parameter, does it mean that I'm better off just sacking off investing and using an ethical savings account that I can't touch without 6 months notice with a high interest rate?
Invest the Big Exchange money into the same fund your pension is invested in?
blackhat - that's with Nest, and they invest directly in companies by the look of it, so I can't put it in there.
The key thing here is that I want my money to be invested ethically
Admirable sentiments. ( Genuinely)
My investments are mainly an amalgam of various flavours of Big Evil: BP, BA, Cruise lines etc. It's pretty shameful really.
I have a few non Evil holdings, which have done sod all:
Docs and Norsk Hydro are up a bit, but not much more than a decent cash ISA.
My main sop to green is Vestas, which has pretty much halved in value. My guess is that loads of companies got inflated valuations 10-15 years ago in anticipation of a sea change in thinking. That never really happened and I was just too late to the table.
If someone has since decent suggestions of profitable green funds then I'm also keen to hear....
If you need (or might need) access before you draw your pension whack it the BS. Or you could look at investing on a platform/shares ISA with ethical funds but higher risk. Am amazed at the shite performance of your funds though. Very poor.
The key thing here is that I want my money to be invested ethically
Admirable sentiments. ( Genuinely)
My main sop to green is Vestas, which has pretty much halved in value. My guess is that loads of companies got inflated valuations 10-15 years ago in anticipation of a sea change in thinking. That never really happened and I was just too late to the table.
If someone has since decent suggestions of profitable green funds then I'm also keen to hear....
That makes sense I guess - I'd hoped that the Green Revolution would mean things like wind power firms were more valuable but I guess if they started high before I even got into this game then I'd be onto a loser. I'd hoped that you'd have the answer to your last question as you seem keenest on this sort of thing when I dip into these threads to see how badly I'm doing compared to everyone investing in BP/BA etc!
From a utilitarian perspective, if this ethical investment strategy continues to be ineffective you could park it and invest seriously. Then use the profits to directly support ethical activities or businesses that you value.
I'd hoped that you'd have the answer to your last question as you seem keenest on this sort of thing when I dip into these threads to see how badly I'm doing compared to everyone investing in BP/BA
Alas what gains I made were solely done by backing various dinosaurs that got the shit kicked out of them during COVID lockdown. As the population of the world ( myself obviously included) got back into our shitty ways those shares recovered and flourished.
With the glaring exception of Cineworld, which went thoroughly bust 🙂
I'm genuinely curious how any fund could be losing money right now. If you put £10k into an S&P500 tracker fund anytime in 2023 you would now have somewhere between £14k and £17K. If you invested £10k anytime in 2020 you'd have somewhere between £17K and £29K.
Ethical investing is a very slippery definition, obviously. If you invest in an S&P500 tracker fund some of your money would be going to unethical companies. But then would an ethical investing company consider Tesla ethical? I wouldn't but then the answer to that question would depend on your definition.
I got out of the stock market a year ago to do upgrades to the house. I thought the timing was pretty good because I was fairly sure a crash was coming. Obviously that's not been the case so perhaps I'm not a financial sage.
But still, like I said, how could any fund not at least have shown some profit in the last 5 years?
You were unlucky if you started with Triodos in 2020, they should have recovered by now though. They appear to have some funds that do well and some that suck though. 5% guaranteed seems good for an ethical fund though but that might come with strings attached such as you actually lose money on it if you extract it before term so if that is backup funds you might want to stick with Triodos but maybe change the fund if being ethical is the most important thing
We saved with ISA's in Big Exchange - utterly woeful performance. We left after 2.5 years of negative returns.
I have pension with Standard Life and use only 'ethical' or 'green' funds*, and all but one are OK for returns. Yes I could pile into their US fund and get twice as much...but I won't.
*yes I am aware that the 'ethical' and 'green' rating of some of these funds is not as good as others, but I am balancing that with returns. I don't invest in arms or oil, but beyond that....
From a utilitarian perspective, if this ethical investment strategy continues to be ineffective you could park it and invest seriously. Then use the profits to directly support ethical activities or businesses that you value.
This is my approach. I have a couple of green funds that have performed pretty indifferently. The rest of my savings are in bland whole market trackers and doing just fine. If it does well I'll be retiring early and doing some volunteering. I also quite like the idea of buying a plot of brown land and massively increasing the biodiversity. There are trillions of dollars in the market, my meagre savings are an insignificant tiny spec
You can invest in an ethical etf (look for esg funds) within an stocks and shares ISA.
Just an example, not a recommendation
https://www.vanguardinvestor.co.uk/investments/vanguard-esg-global-all-cap-ucits-etf-usd-accumulating/overview
Like Matt my ethical pension funds are bubbling along steadily, ~7% pa returns. Shares in panda veal probably outperforming them but meh whatever.
I know nothing about money but given it is losing money just now, surely sticking it in the account that returns 5% is the better idea as it is guaranteed...and is currently more than you are getting now.
Assuming that works, then in a couple of years perhaps remove some of that and stick it in an investment and see how that smaller amount goes.
That all sounds like a sensible idea to me, but I've no idea how to go about that...but 5% sounds far better than what you are getting now.
However, as said, I know nothing about managing money!
Buy some digi gold. Over a few years mine is up 38% (last time I checked )... I only have about £500 though.
But 38%isstill 38%
Buy some digi gold. Over a few years mine is up 38% (last time I checked )... I only have about £500 though.
But 38%isstill 38%
Yup, just coming up to a year for me and made a little over 30%.
Buy some digi gold. Over a few years mine is up 38% (last time I checked ).
Sounds like it might be a while since you last checked 🙂
My gold is up 19% since spring, and I bought high. I'd be amazed if you're only up 38% over a few years.
I'm no expert, but just having a quick Look at ongoing charges "The Big Exchange" options are all running at between 1% and 0.8%. The Vanguard link above is 0.24% so that's a big saving year on year (although eroded slightly by Vanguards minimum annual charge that they recently introduced).
Personally, I would stick it somewhere like the Vanguard fund and walk away for at least five years. If you can't ignore it for five years then a cash ISA may be the better option for you.
As always; have listen to the Meaningful Money Podcast if you get more interested in this tuff. James Shack also gets good support/reviews, but I cant comment on his stuff as I have not seen/listened to much of it.
@munrobiker Don't necessarily give up on Triodos (although I accept you've probably sold up there and moved your money elsewhere.) I have a series of ESG-focussed investments, and in rough terms since Jan 2024, the unit prices of four of them have moved as follows:
Jupiter Ecology - up 16.6%
Triodos Global Impact - up 10.8%
Triodos Pioneer Impact - up 7.1%
Royal London Sustainable Leaders - up 22.5% (it used to be a Co-Op fund, but they sold it off to Royal London a year or so back)
FWIW, my Ecology BS accounts are paying me 2.5% (ISA) and 2.95% (non-ISA) so if you're getting 5% from them, that's a good result.
So none of those has been spectacular in the period, but I'm not complaining about any of them either. Obviously they all had something of a wobble when Orange Shitgibbon started throwing his tariffs around in April-ish, but have generally recovered well enough.
All invested directly with the provider in question, I don't have anything going through Vanguard or HargreavesLansdown or other such brokers.
If someone has since decent suggestions of profitable green funds then I'm also keen to hear....
@thegeneralist Of the above, I've been putting 100 quid a month into the Jupiter Ecology fund the longest, and it's just plugged away steadily for many years, growing little by little, to become 6 figures now (sorry, not meant as a humblebrag, just a statement of fact). Anyway that'd be my suggestion for looking at. As ever of course, past performance is no guarantee of future returns, etc.
Meaningful money podcast is a good listen, in fact, you could email a question in and get it answered on their current listener question feature.
It's always difficult crystalising a loss, but the do nothing option is more poor performance.
Bruce makes a good point. Just because something calls itself 'ethical' does that mean it is? Or at least does it align with your idea of ethics? Tesla being a good example - assuming electric cars are less bad than fossil fuel ones it's good, giving my money to support Mr Musk is bad. A lot of 'ethical' funds refuse to invest in arms companies, when the war in Ukraine kicked off they struggling to find investment to increase production to supply Ukraine. I would find BAE or Rhinemetal more ethical than Tesla in these circumstances but the ethical funds would probably be the other way around.
Just looked it's 40.8% or £168, maybe enough to buy a hope Evo lever.
I put abit in. Then it tanked. I have since sporadically topped it up....it's not been a super serious saver, wish I had stuck a lot more in.
So none of those has been spectacular in the period
Royal London Sustainable Leaders - up 22.5%
Seems pretty good to me, maybe unsustainable s&p 500 gains have distorted what good looks like.
I don't see how these really fit with Ecological, Social and Governance - Banks, data centres and drugs.
I have had a fair bit of professional exposure to ethical investing. There are many shades of “ethical” from “don’t do bad” to “must only do positive” married to the fact that in the end the providers of the funds are in the business of managing money and want to attract as much of it as possible, which can lead to some tying themselves into horrible knots as they justify positions which contradict their own mandate. For example, avoiding defence companies because they make things that kill people was a pretty consensual view until Ukraine was invaded when most ethical funds underperformed as shares in defence (and oil companies, another common exclusion) rose sharply. Next thing, defence companies are deemed acceptable because they are preserving national sovereignty, even if they still make things which kill people. And then there are one’s own red lines - many people declare themselves as not ethical investors, and then add “except tobacco”. I remember talking about a fund which happened to own Tesco, but in the audience was someone who said they wouldn’t own a fund which owned Tesco because they were building a superstore on the edge of town and that would decimate the local shops.
Ethical funds run by some pretty diligent ethical-first investors performed quite well for a long period, with one factor being that they tended to have a bias to smaller companies which generally did better than larger companies. And then about 5 years ago there was a flood of new interest in the concept of ethical investing which piqued the interest of the fund manager marketing departments who could see the potential of getting their hands on more money, plus there were some government-led initiatives to increase the focus on responsible investing. So, we had a general lowering of ethical investing standards and a flood of new money which pushed up share prices to silly levels, which means the shares and funds bought along these lines 5 years ago have basically been paying the price ever since. That Royal London fund noted above is one of the more long lasting genuine ethical funds out there if you want to own UK shares. The Vanguard fund is only as good as its screen and i’m sure there will be something to offend in there. As a global fund it has a big skew to the US.
Owning gold is a questionable investment for some, ethics-wise. Firstly, the extraction methods are pretty mucky in many cases (cyanide), and, secondly, a lot of gold expatriated and looted by the nazis has been incorporated into gold in circulation.
That Royal London fund noted above is one of the more long lasting genuine ethical funds out there if you want to own UK shares.
But how are banks, big tech and pharmaceuticals ethical?
I work for a major high street bank - 3 or 4 years ago all our senior leaders were banging on about was climate transition financing. It has all been quietly shelved. TBH the only reason they were doing it is because they were worried the younger generation was going to boycott companies with an O & G footprint. We are right back to big profits being the only thing they give a toss about.
All the ethical funds I've invested in have lost value since 2021. I've now got it split across a generic "moderately adventurous" passive fund, a "cautious" fund, and some cash in an ISA.
Looking at the overvaluation of big US companies makes me quite worried about having anything invested there at this point.
All the ethical funds I've invested in have lost value since 2021. I've now got it split across a generic "moderately adventurous" passive fund, a "cautious" fund, and some cash in an ISA.
Looking at the overvaluation of big US companies makes me quite worried about having anything invested there at this point.
I guess thats a question for anyone who invests really - how ethical can you really be if you want to make good gains, and how/where do you draw the line?
I'm a bit concerned about about the Magnificent 7 being overvalued so I've got 2 ETFs - an all world which is very US & Tech centric as thats what's doing well at the moment but I've hedged against it slightly by having about 75% in 'all world' and about 25% in VEUA, which is a little bit like S&P500 but only Europe and UK companies.
But I'm not hugley concerned as I know the tech industry more than any other due to my job and my interests - google is not going anywhere, Nvidia is not going anywhere etc.. there may be slumps but thats investing 101 i guess- you need to be able to afford to leave your money in during slumps and wait for recovery.
Theres a little bit of duplication of shares across the two funds but nothing huge and I bought VEUA for more exposure to Europe anyway.
robola - I have absolutely no affiliation with Royal London, I just think they are one of those whose choices of what is ethical will offend fewer people than many others, but the fact that it is a subjective matter means that we’re all going to have our own view as to what is and isn’t ethical. One provider I would steer away from. but it’s a great example of dumb screening is the FTSE4good index - a greenwash index created by the stock exchange - as the UK centric version includes both Shell and Rio Tinto as top holdings. I have absolutely no idea how their inclusion is justified but it illustrates the nonsense which can surround the whole ethical investing concept. You highlight certain sectors which you don’t like and it’s back to what you think is good/bad vs what others think is good/bad, and the balance between good and bad. The general consensus is that pharmaceutical stocks do quite a bit more improving health than the high profile harms when it has gone wrong. Banks do still lend to things some of us might find dubious, but in the end we need banks for a money based economy to function. Others will have problems with some companies you might find acceptable.
We could extend the argument as to whether buying shares in any company is ethical in any way as capitalism is about exploiting something at the wrong price to make a profit - whether there is a wider public cost of extracting raw materials or manufacturing product, exploiting a workforce, gaming regulations or exploiting customers for addictive or branded products etc..
I get that Royal London are a good company and it is one of the least worst options if you want to go down that route.
They aren't sectors that I don't like, I just don't really see them as being that ethical.
I made a decision that there was too much bullshit in ethical investing (and high fees) when I looked and ended up with index trackers. I know some of my money is in places i'd rather it wasn't but our whole society is so intertwined with this stuff that I felt it was a losing battle.
👍 agreed
2 daft questions -
- What is digi gold?
- How do you go about getting some?
And a bonus question - for those who have made money on it - assuming that is just down to value of the shares you own - so is it easy to sell on?
2 daft questions -
- What is digi gold?
- How do you go about getting some?
And a bonus question - for those who have made money on it - assuming that is just down to value of the shares you own - so is it easy to sell on?
Just like buying into an ETF fund really, as opposed to buying actual gold bars and stashing them under your bed.
For example:
https://www.justetf.com/uk/etf-profile.html?isin=IE000Q2P3ZQ3
EDIT - I tell a lie, its this, which is similar but different..
https://www.royalmint.com/digital-investments/digigold/
But if you already have a stocks and shares ISA, I'd just buy gold within that like any other commodities or shares as the gains are CGT tax free.
https://www.royalmint.com/digital-investments/digigold/digi-gold/
I think someone else does it.
Or buy a coin or bar, then look disappointed at the size. A £260 1/10th Oz is smaller than a 5p
I used Royal Mint too mainly because I knew they’re absolutely genuine. You buy the gold and pay a storage fee of a few pound per month. Buying was just like ordering something on Amazon, paid for it and it was mine but obviously no delivery. Selling it I’m not sure as it will sit there just increasing, the kids know I have it and it will be there’s to do as when I croak. Unless of course I really need to cash it in.
Pay for storage and it's subject to capital gains tax?
Doesn't seen like the best option...
Pay for storage and it's subject to capital gains tax?
Doesn't seen like the best option...
about 30p per month for storage and like most investments it can be subject to tax.
I think I would buy sovereigns, put them under the floorboards, sell them when necessary and not say a word to anyone.
2 daft questions -
What is digi gold?
How do you go about getting some?
And a bonus question - for those who have made money on it - assuming that is just down to value of the shares you own - so is it easy to sell on?
Here ye go Dick. The thread I opened on that very subject 5 months ago.....
https://singletrackmag.com/forum/off-topic/worth-a-punt-on-gold/
think I would buy sovereigns, put them under the floorboards, sell them when necessary and not say a word to anyone.
Gold coins hidden in the thatch, a la Uhtred of Bebbanburg.
Braw, thanks for the pointers.
I don't know why, but when I clicked on the image in your post it bought up something completely different with no mention of gold. It could be your financial summary, but luckily with no actual figures or personal data. Either way you might want to check/edit/delete the image?I used Royal Mint too mainly because I knew they’re absolutely genuine. You buy the gold and pay a storage fee of a few pound per month. Buying was just like ordering something on Amazon, paid for it and it was mine but obviously no delivery. Selling it I’m not sure as it will sit there just increasing, the kids know I have it and it will be there’s to do as when I croak. Unless of course I really need to cash it in.
Do you mean that list of sectors that I posted further up the thread starting with banks? For some reason the forum now allows you to click backwards and forwards through all images in a thread regardless of who posted them.
I have money in RL Sustainable leaders, Fundsmith Stewardship, L&G ESG tilted and Vanguard climate aware. They're all doing well but as above, completely depends on your own definition of sustainable.
I used to work with the ESG department of a major investment company and they'd get requests from customers for a 100% carbon free fund. Well, that's just impossible.
So pick your battles and go with least worst.
Gold coins hidden in the thatch, a la Uhtred of Bebbanburg.
Or in a wooden chest buried in the garden, a la Captain Flint 🏴☠️
I don't know why, but when I clicked on the image in your post it bought up something completely different with no mention of gold. It could be your financial summary, but luckily with no actual figures or personal data. Either way you might want to check/edit/delete the image?
It doesn’t open anything, it is a pasted image and has no access to my summary. Cheers though.
Pay for storage and it's subject to capital gains tax?
Doesn't seen like the best option...
Coins produced by the mint are legal tender and CGT free. So just the storage cost and I'm not sure what fees you'll be paying on your ETF but it won't be £0.
Edit - ah if it's that DigiGold then this is not buying coins & having them stored by the mint, but fractions of bars so isn't CGT free. Definitely not tax efficient in that case. But you can buy coins & have them store it instead.
Thanks for the input all.
My standards for an ethical account have been very high, which is why I started with Triodos. And I'd still say not investing in arms is the right thing - they make their money by selling the arms, not through trading stocks and shares.
I'll explore the other options you've all suggested and see if any of them suit.
It doesn’t open anything, it is a pasted image and has no access to my summary. Cheers though.
There's an arrow on the left to go to another image/screenshot. Looks like a % summary of expenditure
That isn't Drac's image, that is the image that was posted by robola earlier in the thread...think Drac and someone else said the same earlier as well.
Ah, so basically, a list of all images in the thread
All the ethical funds I've invested in have lost value since 2021. I've now got it split across a generic "moderately adventurous" passive fund, a "cautious" fund, and some cash in an ISA.
Looking at the overvaluation of big US companies makes me quite worried about having anything invested there at this point.
I guess thats a question for anyone who invests really - how ethical can you really be if you want to make good gains, and how/where do you draw the line?
I'm a bit concerned about about the Magnificent 7 being overvalued so I've got 2 ETFs - an all world which is very US & Tech centric as thats what's doing well at the moment but I've hedged against it slightly by having about 75% in 'all world' and about 25% in VEUA, which is a little bit like S&P500 but only Europe and UK companies.
But I'm not hugley concerned as I know the tech industry more than any other due to my job and my interests - google is not going anywhere, Nvidia is not going anywhere etc.. there may be slumps but thats investing 101 i guess- you need to be able to afford to leave your money in during slumps and wait for recovery.
Theres a little bit of duplication of shares across the two funds but nothing huge and I bought VEUA for more exposure to Europe anyway.
hmm. re overvalued tech shares, Cory Doctorow on the ai bubble. As someone who has yet to see any real value from ai I can’t help thinking he might be onto something.
This was my first-ever speech about AI and I wasn't sure how it would go over, but thankfully, it went great and sparked a lively Q&A. One of those questions came from a young man who said something like "So, you're saying a third of the stock market is tied up in seven AI companies that have no way to become profitable and that this is a bubble that's going to burst and take the whole economy with it?"
I said, "Yes, that's right."
He said, "OK, but what can we do about that?"
So I re-iterated the book's thesis: that the AI bubble is driven by monopolists who've conquered their markets and have no more growth potential, who are desperate to convince investors that they can continue to grow by moving into some other sector, e.g. "pivot to video," crypto, blockchain, NFTs, AI, and now "super-intelligence." Further: the topline growth that AI companies are selling comes from replacing most workers with AI, and re-tasking the surviving workers as AI babysitters ("humans in the loop"), which won't work. Finally: AI cannot do your job, but an AI salesman can 100% convince your boss to fire you and replace you with an AI that can't do your job, and when the bubble bursts, the money-hemorrhaging "foundation models" will be shut off and we'll lose the AI that can't do your job, and you will be long gone, retrained or retired or "discouraged" and out of the labor market, and no onewill do your job. AI is the asbestos we are shoveling into the walls of our society and our descendants will be digging it out for generations:
https://pluralistic.net/2025/09/27/econopocalypse/#subprime-intelligence
For those who were interested in the digital gold, here’s how it currently stands for me after 11 months.
You guys who own gold, who would you try and sell it to if you wanted out?I,ve heard there's a lot of shysters out there.Dont know if that's true or not mind.
I just click on the sell button on the UI or ajbell UI.
Nvidia is not going anywhere etc
They will probably downside massively in future due to a very large chuck of the market gone. They still hold 54% of the market but that will be quickly eroded in the next few years.
If one had pretty much maxxed out the ISA allowance this year, but wanted to put 5-8k away now, where would you put it? Still in Gold?
History suggests that “time in the market” (riding out the wobbles) works better than “timing the market” (not only selling at market highs but also getting in at market lows) but sometimes things make you think hmmm. The recent deals between OpenAI and AMD (buying chips off AMD and also taking a stake in AMD) and OpenAI and Nvidia (buying chips off Nvidia and Nvidia taking a stake in OpenAI) have a degree of circularity to them which is very reminiscent of the late 90s tech boom and very much associated with previous stock market bubbles. It may turn out to be a false alarm but if things do go pop these deals will be held up as evidence it had all got out of control.
If one had pretty much maxxed out the ISA allowance this year, but wanted to put 5-8k away now, where would you put it? Still in Gold?
In my pension. Investing in the same things as in my ISA.