Is it time to leave the UK?

If i didnt have aging parents in Scotland I would have gone years ago

Netherlands or France would ne my choice

I think that despite the state of the country we're generally still a pretty well off and safe place to live compared to most places.

Also, I don't know if you have family, but people I know who've moved to Oz and NZ are enjoying life there, but can't afford to come back to visit family and family here can afford to go and visit them.

Yes, it is the time for Scotland to leave the UK.

I’ve fancied New Zealand but don’t know how the situation compares.

I have a friend who moved there over 15 years ago, and struggles to this day with affordability. They said it is so expensive comparatively, although, with the way things are going here that may be changing. Her sister emigrated to Oz with her German husband and loves it; they are fortunate that, again, although expensive, they are both in well paid professions so affordability is less of an issue.
Edit: the grass may seem greener, but if I could (Mrs fazzini will not consider the idea even if it was possible ;)), I'd be off to the French Pyrenees like a shot...or Canada...or Spanish Pyrenees...or Andorra...or 😂

I think you have to choose carefully and realise everywhere has pros and cons. I would say as a bus mechanic, go to Germany for work!

And the pound is a total stinker right now if you have to buy in kiwi dollars!

I think that despite the state of the country we’re generally still a pretty well off and safe place to live compared to most places.

I was reading something the other day that suggested Slovenian's would have a better standard of living and more disposable income than Brits by 2025...

And let's not think that places like NZ are any better. My brother and family live in Auckland, a good friend in Nelson. Silly house prices, rising costs of everything, not as clean, green, safe and healthy as you might imagine. And access laws/land ownership laws which make the US look generous...

 I’ve fancied New Zealand but don’t know how the situation compares.

I've a friend who immigrated and while he found work, all his problems (his marriage, money, family) went with him. He still wasn't content and it ruined his marriage. Each country has it's own pros and cons, and I think you'd be foolish to think that some idealised life can be found by just changing the country you live in.

Regardless of how we cynically view it, the UK is still overall a good place to live and work.

If i didnt have aging parents in Scotland I would have gone years ago

Same with us too - parents at the age where almost all conversations with them involves their latest procedures/appointments/etc.

If we did go it'd likely be Aus/NZ for ease of Mrs a11y's job, other countries a bit more complicated. Spent Christmas at a friend's house in Brisbane a few years ago - swimming pool, jacuzzi, and wood-fired pizzas for Christmas dinner. It wouldn't take much encouragement to get us out there permanently.

Also, I don’t know if you have family, but people I know who’ve moved to Oz and NZ are enjoying life there, but can’t afford to come back to visit family and family here can afford to go and visit them.

We have family in Australia - they like it but are so disconnected from the rest of the world, the price of food/drink is shocking, energy costs were bad when we were there (although I assume things may be leveling up now) and housing unaffordable (they live near Surfer's Paradise). And the worst bit - in the middle of summer it is dark at 6.30pm WTF!!! (I know Oz is a big place and it's not the same everywhere). I would never live there.

I’m not looking for a ‘nice life’ I have that in Cornwall just affordability is rapidly becoming a problem due to current political choices. So I’m wondering if other countries offer better value for money for the working week

In countries like the Netherlands you exchange higher taxes for good public services

Choose your flavour of shit. There are problems and comprises everywhere. Find the ones that work for you. If you have no commitments and can get a visa give NZ a go, or Canada or wherever.

 just affordability is rapidly becoming a problem

Forget places like Canada and New Zealand then. If you think it's expensive in the UK...

affordability is rapidly becoming a problem due to current political choices. So I’m wondering if other countries offer better value for money for the working week

Dispite what people say this is pretty global. Yes there is variation but where one bit is cheaper another is more expensive. If you can combine a relocation with a change in lifestyle or situation then life can be cheaper. With your skill set I would look into working on heavy machinery on the mines or oil sands. Very different work life balance but you will be away on expenses a lot and have some good money.

It's better to go FOR something than FROM something. That said, we started looking at emigrating on the 19th of September 2014 and ended up having a move to Europe sorted in June 2016, and then had a panicked few months wondering if it would actually happen. Initially we were only supposed to be in the Netherlands for two years, and our reasoning was 'yep, two years while we still can and before we're deported, let's do it', and we threw ourselves into it. Put the kids into a local school, tried to learn as much Dutch as possible, cycled EVERYWHERE. Now you're expecting me to say that it fell apart and we came back, tails between legs? No. It's nearly six years now. Our kids are more Dutch than Scottish. I've been back across the north sea twice and every time feels worse, more alien, more cruel. I'd happily never go back. I don't regret leaving. Not one bit.

..or get angry and do something about it.
If one wide mouthed frog man can **** this country ,millions of us can put it right.

Been to Australia (Melbourne) for a holiday and will be going to Adelaide fairly regularly for work from next year.

Whilst i liked it, it felt like a really long way from home - and we were ware that realistically if anything happened at home (family health emergency, etc) it would take us 2-3 days to get back and a lot of £££

I met a mate at a wedding at the weekend, who has just retired from the MET (54ish) and has sold up and bought a place in the Dordogne - house + Gites to rent out - he and his wife speak hardly any French but thought it would be better than here.
So far so good except for the Brexit induced paperwork/Visas/etc.

I was reading something the other day that suggested Slovenian’s would have a better standard of living and more disposable income than Brits by 2025…

There was a lot of this that came out of the Telegraph report. The report (I'm told) said that Slovenians already have a much better standard of living than their UK counterparts with the exception of the highest income brackets.

Based on trade deficit the UK is a VERY poor country.. we haven't consistently made more than we spent in a long time.. (exactly how long depending on how sustained). Every month we spend more than we earn and effectively fall into greater debt..

https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/GBR/united-kingdom/trade-balance-defici t'

You can compare that to a rich country like Germany
https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/DEU/germany/trade-balance-defici t'

or an upcoming country like Slovenia
https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/SVN/slovenia/trade-balance-deficit

I’ve known a lot of people, including family who have done the Australia, New Zealand or Canada route, from what I’ve seen it works well if you have a tidy nest egg and the skills they’re after, I.e. engineers with masters, CEng, etc and years in design and manufacturing. Those who didn’t have that nest egg struggled, and of course there’s always home sickness and isolation.

I do think we are all a bit pessimistic about the UK, we mostly have comfortable lives and just yearn for more, be that money, trinkets or time, but emigrating isn’t cheap and can just add more stress, it’s why I’ve never really looked at it, Australia and the US have been available to me, but just too much stress for the family in the long run.

If affordability is the issue, then moving abroad right now won’t really help… any “means” you have now in GBP (equity in your home for example) won’t get you far once you’ve converted it and taken it out of the UK. Yes, most of us are really feeling poorer right now in the UK, but we’re no better off if we try and take what little we have elsewhere. You can’t escape the slide of the last 15 or so years (for normal Brits) unless you have something lined up big income wise in your country of choice… and the chances are that if you have that opportunity abroad, then you can probably find it here as well. Looking at the responses to the Singletrack survey, most posters to this forum probably have no idea just how trapped the average Brit is in this devaluation of normal incomes and the life you can live on one (or two). We’re making most Brits poorer and poorer with no way out, but that hit isn’t felt by those higher up the income/wealth scale (even if they think of themselves as “average”).

I’ve been back across the north sea twice and every time feels worse, more alien, more cruel. I’d happily never go back. I don’t regret leaving. Not one bit.

On a domestic level I've moved around a lot and get that feeling too. Going back 'home' always feels like it's worse and has gone downhill because what you're really looking for doesn't exist anymore, all the people you knew have moved away etc. I don't think any of those places are actually worse than they were when I left, it's just not possible to that experience.

e.g. I grew up in a pretty idyllic NT estate. Went back a few years ago and it as awful. The place itself was fine, it's just that instead of the place to myself, a fridge full of beer, bikes in the shed to jump on whenever I felt like it, etc. It was busy, £5 to park my car, £4 and a long queue for a cup of tea in a noisy tea room with the tourists and you had to be out by dusk. Same feeling going back to Lancaster/Wales/Sheffield/Middlesbrough/Newcastle/Liverpool/Manchester or anywhere else I've lived.

Except Reading, Reading is just rubbish 😂 although I'm sure with time I'll eventually miss the Chilterns in summer.

Yeh it's not just about wealth/income though if you move, though I know the OP has that as his main query.

For me it's things like policing, health provision, education, accessibility to others and other places. These might not be great in parts of the UK, but I'd take it over the situations in many other countries.

As I said before access to family can be a big thing. We moved from Shetland (after 12 years there) down to mainland Scotland last year due to the time and cost of visiting family, and the fact that family had stopped visiting us up there for the same reasons. We could get the points for Canada, Oz or NZ with mine and wife's work and qualifications, but I'm not prepared to be further away from my Mam in her remaining years, or my daughter and grandkids.

Despite recent history and a bleak future in the UK at present I think emigrating could very easily be jumping from the frying pan into the fire. The world is pretty ****ed up just now.

I’m not looking for a ‘nice life’ I have that in Cornwall just affordability is rapidly becoming a problem due to current political choices. So I’m wondering if other countries offer better value for money for the working week

I use to run global teams, done it for a few companies. Staff were paid the market rate (or near enough) for doing the same jobs, but in different countries. UK, Europe (both North & South), North America and AsiaPac. Even with radically different salaries (both gross & net), pretty much they all had the same kinda lifestyle.

As a mechanic, the only way you'll make really good money is owning the business - otherwise there's a full-on ceiling to what you can earn.

Go for it you can always come back!

I left the UK a few years ago and echo the comments above, every time I go back it feels more run down, dirty, overcrowded, faded, failing, sad and full of hate/regret. Wish I'd left sooner but will probably have to go back some time as parents age. There are downsides, you will probably not make friends like you do at home, if you move to a non english speaking country you will have to learn the language to work unless you work for a multinational, and if moving to Europe brexit has made it a LOT harder, but still possible.

Forgot to add, a few folk also had to come back due to downturns in their industries in NZ and Australia, there were other issues, but remember most industries are pretty similar worldwide, personally I see emigration having lost a lot of its benefits over the years in our industry (defence and aerospace), the big wages are less and cost of living kind of equals itself across the board, so cheap petrol and groceries outweighed by medical and do on.

My brother emigrated to Oz (Tempe, Sydney) ~15years ago, was hands on maintenance engineer in UK got a managers job in Oz. Done well and has a good standard of living.
But; his wife is a primary teacher on decent salary and they bought when houses were 'cheap' they have skyrocketed to the extent they can't afford to move even though the family has massively outgrown their starter home.

MrsRNP and I have links to Perpignan region of France (MIL has an apartment there) we don't have children, and no mortgage on our house so nothing really stopping us apart from Brexit shite and there is no employment in the area and we'd be competing with the locals for jobs so not so easy.

Plus aging parents. Lost FIL a few years ago so know what effect eventually losing MIL is going to have on MrsRNP. I feel like I have to be here for my parents because of my brother leaving.

Otherwise I'd happily leave this litter strewn/dog shit filled/ DailyMail reading shithole for Germany/Norway/Finland/France

Having lived in Australia for 6 years and having the passport now this is always an option for us ( wife's Australian which makes it easier on some easy). Would definitely agree with feeling a long long way from things - especially if you live in WA...
I really love where we live now (South Downs) but for me at least Australia would be a very significant jump in pay (although comes with some industry specific lifestyle changes).
The UK is still pretty damned good, easy to dwell on the bad bits but globally we are doing ok. Though the current government doesn't make me optimistic, Australia is politically a bit of a mess as well (current bunch are an improvement mind)

From the little I’ve looked when musing leaving the UK, housing in Sweden looks incredibly cheap.

Better the devil you know !

Sweden is both cheap and expensive. The house I am in right now was cheap (about 100k UKP for a two bed house with 3500kvm land), but it had no water, sewerage, old electrics, no broadband, etc, etc.

We’ve changed a lot of that, so now it is worth more, but there were years we were taking water from a dunk and sleeping/living in a single room in winter with no heating while we fixed stuff.

In town, apartments are most common and, in Stockholm at least, really, really expensive. All the work is in the bigger cities and towns and you really have to be here to understand how far apart some places are. Kalix is, quite literally, a day’s drive from Stockholm. And I mean 18 hours of solid driving. Malmö to there is 24 hours.

Also, the right wing government thing. Yeah, but no. SD are in government and Moderaterna might be in charge, but it is a razor thin majority and their ability to do stuff is limited. If they change public services too much, people will get upset.

Not that easy any more.

But like TJ if I didn't have ageing parents I'd have bailed straight after the Brexit vote. I wish I'd never left Finland as that was long enough ago that I'd have had n excuse.

Slovenia has so so surpassed the UK for quality of life.

Both sisters emigrated over 30yrs ago, both miss the changing seasons we get in the UK, both missed the chance to have a passable conversation with our mum before she died. It was always interesting comparing our lives as our respective kids grew up (each had 3 kids of similar ages), now 30yrs later & they are both happy where they are but there will come a time when we will be too old/frail for long haul flights to visit one another which will be especially sad for one sister whos 3 kids have all settled in different continents.

Despite all the problems, I still think the UK is a decent place to live.

The cost of living issues are all over now. The whole ideological, economic, and social systems that our Western democracies are built on are starting to show their failings, and its not just in the UK. We moved to Spain three years ago and the economy is a state here. Tons of unemployment compared to the UK, especially youth unemployment, and wages are poor unless you are lucky to have a decent job with a multinational. If it wasn't due to the fact that my wife has one of these decent jobs then we'd be back in the UK pronto.

Throw in the daily challenges with cultural differences, language etc, and I do sometimes find myself questioning our decision to move here. Don't underestimate feelings of homesickness either. You will miss family and friends.

The cost of living issues are all over now.

Que?

I'm sure he means all over the place. Not all over and done with.

Ahhhh....

As you were.

I lived in Oz for a year but it was never going to be permanent. Loved it but as mentioned above I did miss the changing seasons which I love about the UK. Something to look forward to at every time of the year.

I’ve had two close mates emigrate around 10-15 years ago. Apart from WhatsApp group we’ve seen them maybe twice. This is sad and I do think they miss home but they have a life out there and I doubt we’ll see them again.

I like the UK it does have its issues but I think things could be a whole lot worse.

I’ve known a lot of people, including family who have done the Australia, New Zealand or Canada route, from what I’ve seen it works well if you have a tidy nest egg and the skills they’re after, I.e. engineers with masters, CEng, etc and years in design and manufacturing. Those who didn’t have that nest egg struggled, and of course there’s always home sickness and isolation.

I do think we are all a bit pessimistic about the UK, we mostly have comfortable lives and just yearn for more, be that money, trinkets or time, but emigrating isn’t cheap and can just add more stress, it’s why I’ve never really looked at it, Australia and the US have been available to me, but just too much stress for the family in the long run.

This, we did a proper examination of moving to Barbados a few years ago, and the summary was as above. We aren't able to hold on to a property here, so we'd struggle to come back to the UK on Barbados wages - e.g at current prices 2 weeks UK salary for a plane ticket out, 1 year BDS salary to get back . On the plus side, they very much make the most of what they have and large telly's are of the cheap Chinese kinds as are cars... etc.

I've been entertaining NZ work dignitary for ages and his overriding comment was "**** me you've a lot of rules here, no wonder you all stay at home and watch TV - its got to be cheaper!".

I'll retire to Ireland, seeing how well old people are treated, such as my dad, it's definitely more desirable than the UK.
I'll spend winters in Spain/Portugal though.

I’m sure he means all over the place. Not all over and done with.

This, was typing on the phone before and it looks like it deleted the end of the sentence.

I do think we are all a bit pessimistic about the UK

Compared to many places in Europe the UK is sit. Crap publuc services. Corrupt government. Angry unhappy people.

Its become utterly obvious to me how far we have fallen behind after decades of Tory rule. Yes you pay more tax i other countries but its obvious that tax is spent on the wellbeing of the people

Compared to many places in Europe the UK is sit. Crap publuc services. Corrupt government. Angry unhappy people.

Its become utterly obvious to me how far we have fallen behind after decades of Tory rule. Yes you pay more tax i other countries but its obvious that tax is spent on the wellbeing of the people

Again, not hugely different to the rest, we just like to bemoan our lot, same as the French do theirs, the Germans as well and so on.

I've yet to see these lands of milk and honey where they have great public services, less taxation, higher paying jobs and so on, politically most similar nations are in the similar sway between soft left and soft right, and as for angry unhappy people, we definitely don't have a lion share of that compared to other countries!

I agree the UK is having a shit phase at the moment, but as they say you don't always know what you've got. When I was in Germany most businesses and services did not actually care about their customers at all. It was very business-like but not much empathy or caring about the people with problems, which is something I see more in the UK (outside government services, in the current climate).

I’ve yet to see these lands of milk and honey where they have great public services, less taxation

Who said anything about lower taxation?

You get the standard of service you pay for.

Yes, it is the time for Scotland to leave the UK.

Let’s see how well that works out for you. Probably about as well as the U.K. leaving Europe.

Let me say that for a person from North Borneo now living in the Toon (Tyne side), the only complaints I have are the winter, expensive restaurants (poor noodles) and perhaps people shouting for no reasons (you Brits(a term my Japanese friend used) like to shout a lot ...LOL!). If North Borneo my home town is that brilliant I won't be here but again I wanted to see the "world" but now stuck as I aged.

Few of my childhood friends have asking me to move to NZ/Oz but I told them I didn't want to be beaten up by the Islanders. LOL! No, the Islanders are friendly but they just don't like "foreigners" that much put it this way. I sense some sort of under current.

My view is that they are all just same shite different place but so long as you can cope with them you should be fine.

Given me the choice I would prefer Scandinavia but since I don't speak their language and some of them are slowly turning into a dump, I think UK is still the best for me ... sorry folks you just have to use me as fertiliser when my time is up. I ain't going back to North Borneo as the place is getting much more difficult for me to associate with and full of people that are just simply hostile towards each others.

OP, I don't know how your mental health is but if you cannot cope any longer than just go try it out but make sure you have backup plan. You don't try you don't know. Also, watch out it can be lonely at times. Yes, you can make friends but they are just friends.

Anyway, good luck with you decision.

I’m in Sydney, left the UK in 2005. Property is expensive here but not sure it’s significantly more unaffordable than London, and I earn more than I would doing the same job in the UK.

Cost of living is definitely getting more expensive with inflation higher than wages growth, but manageable for us earning slightly above average money. Quality of life is the thing for me here though, I live a 10min walk from the beach with decent riding close by and a 40min train from the city.

I didn’t have aging parents when I left but I do now which is going to make for some difficult times in the future.

Cost of living in NZ is significantly more expensive than Aus and wages are significantly lower. There’s lots of Kiwis here but not so many go the other way for good reason.

More equal countries are happier. Even the richest are happier in a more equal society. The UK has become more unequal and thus is a less happy place.

Our public services are shit compared to most other developed countries. Our infrastructure is shit. We have far more poverty. All as a result of deliberate tory policy since the 70s and only slightly ameliorated by a timid blair government

If you are not well paid you will probably be better off in other European countries with access to good secure rented property and decent public services. Well off middle class you will be less well off in purely monetary terms but so much better off in quality of life.

As above having spent months in western europe its become so obvious what a shithole the uk has ecome with the deliberate cruel policies towards the poor, the gutting of public services and the rampant corporate greed and profiteeering.

Compared to the rest of western Europe we look like a third world failed state

Its utterly disgusting

Moved to Vancouver in January and, on balance, it's probably more expensive. Groceries are more or less the same, petrol is much less, car insurance is ridiculous, housing is borderline unbelievable. BUT, this is moving from darkest Lincolnshire to a big city, so I think that probably compounds on the more expensive stuff. Not quite a fair swap in that regard.

I miss my family and friends so much, but going back to visit this summer really solidified that we'd probably made the right choice. Christ, the sun was shining, the birds were tweeting and Doncaster/Sheffield were still grim as owt....owt being a word which I can no longer use.

We also miss being able to travel Europe easily. We definitely took it for granted while we were there. A couple of hours on a plane and we could be in a completely different culture. 2 hours here and we're in, what, Calgary?!.... which I suppose is a somewhat different culture. Yeehaww.

Still, the biking is unbelievable. As is the hiking. Also there's skiing...and climbing...and kayaking...and Reuben sandwiches.

We moved to Spain three years ago and the economy is a state here. Tons of unemployment compared to the UK, especially youth unemployment, and wages are poor unless you are lucky to have a decent job with a multinational.

Yep,but it’s no different than the U.K.,If you’ve the coin it’s all fine and dandy it’s being poor that’s the problem.

I don’t think you can escape the U.K. that easy if you are struggling there as money is required for everything and you will have unexpected stuff to pay for (entry requirement to Spain are way higher as 3rd country status is crap.)

Although I’d say being poor in a country with a warmer climate and good riding is better than being in one that’s cold with bad riding and I’d also say the the Spanish are less fun suckers than the U.K.,they do like to party and shutting the roads for a bike race/party is the norm.

Compared to many places in Europe the UK is sit. Crap publuc services. Corrupt government. Angry unhappy people

Every country I have worked in people had similar complaints. With slight variation

More equal countries are happier. Even the richest are happier in a more equal society. The UK has become more unequal and thus is a less happy place.

I think you spend to much time reading reports, stats, studies, news etc these always give a very negative view of the world. Step away and you will be happier. Happiness is not achieved by comparison that is a sure way to be miserable

I've commented previously on other threads but any time I've been riding in rural Spain I've found the locals to be universally dour. Folk I've met when out and about in Scotland tend to be cheery - a wave, a smile, some small talk, sometimes breaking into long conversations. In Spain I've been ignored, had folk turn their backs or simply scowl. I'm miserable when I'm too warm so I just assumed they were too.

If the shit in the sea water is the biggest problem, move to Scotland where the state owned water company doesn't pay dividends to shareholders.

I can echo Caher's mention of parental support; mine in Co Waterford are very well looked after there by their community, both formally by the healthcare system and informally by the people around them. They settled very happily there some years back after spending several years extensively physically exploring the options, including N America and most of continental Europe. They had tired of cold rain and summer midges after a lifetime in the West Highlands.

Anyway, back in Scotland, I think we're fortunate to have a local Government that is trying to do more to support a decent way of life for a high proportion of the population. Not perfect, by any means but issues like land reform, access and affordable housing are going (slowly) in the right directions. Once we're away from Westmonster and back in Europe, we can look forward to a better future.

I left the UK about a decade and a half ago for Sweden.
Bought a fairly sizeable house (4 bed, 2 bath, massive kitchen/living rooms, massive garage) on a sizeable plot in the middle of a forest on the side of a river valley, 40 minutes drive from the centre of Göteborg.
That cost me about £110k (It was about 12-13 sek/gbp at the time). It's worth about £250k now, so not too bad as far as affordability goes. Done a lot of work on it though, which is expensive. Tradesmen get paid properly.

The right wing government isn't really that right wing TBH, just a lot more right than we're used to, the coalition also have SD who are racist, homophobic and sexist though. So it's going to be a weird few years.

I’ve yet to see these lands of milk and honey where they have great public services, less taxation, higher paying jobs and so on,

*My* total tax burden is a bit less here than in the UK, because i don't pay an additional grand and a half or whatever it is now in council tax, and there's no NI, which a lot of places use to skew the numbers, i've even seen some articles using our highest marginal rate as the rate on all salary...
I get paid well enough for what i do (and have a reasonable standard of living, which is more important). I also have good schools in striking distance (both primary and secondary) the roads are generally in good condition (better than where i used to live in the UK anyway!) Also got parks, playing fields, swimming pools, running tracks etc etc. All within reasonable cycling distance distance.
There is an additional tax burden that rests on the employer. About 20% i think.

You mention Sweden swinging to the right. A local friend's impression is that this is mostly about immigration and their far superior public investment is unlikely to change.

I lived there for 6 months and it was obvious even in that short time what the benefits are. The huge public safety net lets people take more risks with their jobs and so progress further, whilst maintaining a standard of life for those at the bottom. Public transport in the cities is excellent and cheap. There is much more equality, which mainly meant I had a much more diverse experience of work. And far from what the internet will tell you, they aren't all grumpy and shy, in fact far more people would chat on the bus than the miserable sods that live here.

I'm not convinced tax is wildly different than here. A friend in an equivalent job at Volvo gets paid a good whack more than me, with much better pension contributions (as good as UK public sector!). When he was on a similar amount to me, our gross and net salaries were both very similar.

I strongly contemplated moving back permanently but circumstances got in the way.

Edit - probably the biggest downside is the low availability of rentals in cities

More equal countries are happier. Even the richest are happier in a more equal society. The UK has become more unequal and thus is a less happy place.

Anyway, back in Scotland, I think we’re fortunate to have a local Government that is trying to do more to support a decent way of life for a high proportion of the population. Not perfect, by any means but issues like land reform, access and affordable housing are going (slowly) in the right directions.

I think this sums up where I am on a lot of it.
It's the inequality I am struggling with.
And I do appreciate that Scotland is trying, not perfect, but trying to make changes.
I wouldn't move south of the border again.

probably the biggest downside is the low availability of rentals in cities

Yeah, unless you have budget to buy, you could end up at the wrong end of a 5 year queue. Living in a series of second hand rentals.

I’ve commented previously on other threads but any time I’ve been riding in rural Spain I’ve found the locals to be universally dour

Really? My wife's from a very rural part of Spain, and I've always found the locals to be fairly cheerful. Always a "buenos días" or "hasta luego" when you run or ride past them.

Anyway, my thoughts FWTW: the UK isn't that bad. I get a lot of negative messages about the state of the country (admittedly a lot of them from here) but when I go back to London to see my daughter and father it's fine. I don't doubt for a second that Brexit is going to make things worse, but I don't think it'll we're talking armageddon here. No idea what the rest of the UK is like, though.

And Spain isn't a panacea, either. It does have serious unemployment problems in large parts of the country (not so much in Madrid or Barcelona), public services aren't great outside the main cities, the cost of housing (particularly rent) has rocketed up over the past few years, there's a far right party (Vox) that is unlikely to ever be voted in as the main party, but has formed part of coalition governments in the provinces, amongst other things. Same as any other country, they all have their issues.

More generally, the advice above about trying to move away from your problems is a good one. It might be sunnier in Spain (at least in the centre, in summer) but I still have to get up to go to work, pay the mortgage, take the dog out for a walk, etc etc.

All the people I care about are here(Tayside) and scattered around the UK,I would miss them too much if I left. I also like the population/traffic levels up here once you are a short distance out from the cities. Access to beautiful places is hassle free,riding is great and the weather on the East Coast is pretty good.I have stopped worrying about national politics and put my efforts in to local community projects(and people) where I can see positive change.There are still plenty of good humans around.

I think about it off and on but on balance I can't think of anywhere else I'd rather be. Luckily I'm rich enough to be insulated from the worst of things here, and old enough to not be worried about how my future career might pan out. There are lots of good people among all the ****ers, and the cycling and general lifestyle round here is great.

One thing I do highly recommend regardless of any permanent emigration plans is living abroad for a period of time. We had 13 years in Japan which was a great experience. But it's not somewhere I would have wanted to spend the rest of my life.

Also, I probably couldn't handle trying to learn a new foreign language again.

I’ve commented previously on other threads but any time I’ve been riding in rural Spain I’ve found the locals to be universally dour.

Really? I've found the opposite living here. As long as you speak a bit of Spanish most people love to have a good chat with you, even in the big cities.

Out and about in Andalucia, you can't get away from people sometimes. They'll tell you their life story.

The only dour people I've met here are British ex-pats and the odd grumpy waiter or shop worker.

Wife and I have been talking about this ever since we got together.

She is French and we live in Leicester, which over the last ten years has become a bit of ****hole.

Our plan was and still is to move to the South of France after our girls have been through university and finally fledged the nest. Due to the financial pressures on youngsters, finding long term secure work & accommodation. So, it looks like the plan may be pushed out a bit. We want out of Leicester, but it looks like we'll have to suck it up for a while longer.

I think you spend to much time reading reports, stats, studies, news etc these always give a very negative view of the world. Step away and you will be happier. Happiness is not achieved by comparison that is a sure way to be miserable

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Its not that at all. Itz walking and cycling round and seeing the reality. Its having friends and family in other coutries and understanding the reality. It not pretending Britain is great and sticking my fingers in my ears going lalalala.

Its not belieing the lies of the media

Its having a social conscience

Its really patonising to try to deny my experience

I use to run global teams, done it for a few companies. Staff were paid the market rate (or near enough) for doing the same jobs, but in different countries. UK, Europe (both North & South), North America and AsiaPac. Even with radically different salaries (both gross & net), pretty much they all had the same kinda lifestyle.

Although that's true to some extent it's probably more true in that/your particular job role and similar.
I'd agree that certain jobs are balanced as for no other reason than major multinationals do so deliberately with quite involved CoL indexes.

Supply and demand aside (which is probably a bad idea to emigrate permanently) countries like Norway a bus driver or checkout, office cleaner etc. will be paid a much higher wage than the UK, mid level tech type jobs will be about the same (all considered) and high level exec jobs much lower certainly on pure financial terms.

However, if you then look deeper or try to live life you realise that it's not simply financial without changing lifestyle. To use Norway as an example ... when I lived there (20 yrs ago) housing was much cheaper than most of the UK, houses were cheaper to run as they are much better insulated than most of the UK housing stock. Schools and childcare are properly free (not like the UK where parents are constantly asked to pay for stuff like Mufti day's etc)
On the other hand food in general is crippling, especially in Winter when growing/catching your own is nigh on impossible but eating/drinking out is horrendous.

These are really just examples off the top of my head... but if you are a bus driver with a family doesn't drink much and enjoys a bit of fishing and gardening in your considerable leisure time your standard of living would be quite a lot higher.

A bit tongue in cheek but I suspect if everyone who talks down and moans about the UK left, it would be a better place! I've traveled a fair bit and worked abroad, and can tell you the UK isn't a bad place to be on a world scale. Things could be improved, sure, but that's true everywhere. One thing I will say is it's different visiting somewhere on holiday to working there - the exotic and exciting does become ordinary and mundane over time. That's not to say you couldn't improve your situation but it might not be the UK that's the problem.

A bit tongue in cheek but I suspect if everyone who talks down and moans about the UK left, it would be a better place!

You'd also be left with the meatheads who rant about it being the best place on the planet, end of, but when asked why can only repeat their rant, with maybe an added "innit".

I’m moving to New Zealand in November after 24 years in Glasgow ( grew up in Somerset ) . Things are being made significantly easier for us as my wife is a kiwi and her dad has an empty house for us to move in to . I’ve loved living in Scotland but I certainly feel that there is an uncertainty around the future here , seeing what a disaster brexit has been has made me hesitant about the reality of Scottish independence, although I definitely understand the appeal .

I know NZ isn’t the land of milk and honey but I think my kids can have the possibility of a brighter future there , 30 kids in a class here  to 15 in NZ is one example (were moving to a rural location , I’m sure it’s different in the Center of Auckland ) .
Nowhere in the world is immune to what is happening at the moment in terms of inflation but the UK does seem to me to be making life harder for itself at the moment with its choice of brexit and an incompetent government.

I know NZ isn’t the land of milk and honey but I think my kids can have the possibility of a brighter future there , 30 kids in a class here to 15 in NZ is one example (were moving to a rural location , I’m sure it’s different in the Center of Auckland ) .

Move to rural Scotland and you might find 15 per school, never mind per class! 🙂

You’d also be left with the meatheads who rant about it being the best place on the planet, end of

There's a fair few in between extremes though, most likely the majority. Overall the UK is an ok place to live, for most people anyway. Doesn't mean you can't find a better life elsewhere. But seeking a political utopia anywhere is going to be a big ask. If I was younger I'd consider moving abroad, even if it was just for the adventure.

A bit tongue in cheek but I suspect if everyone who talks down and moans about the UK left, it would be a better place! I’ve traveled a fair bit and worked abroad, and can tell you the UK isn’t a bad place to be on a world scale.

I've also worked abroad and travelled much and there are better places. Back in the mid 90's I thought the UK was a great place to live, maybe because I was young but I suspect this is because things have got so much worse faster here than other countries.

My wife is a euro-brat, grew up in Brussels with her parents working in the commission.  We've lived and worked in the Netherlands for a while and travelled all over.  Had offers to emigrate to the US, Oz and the Middle East.  Always ended up making the decision to stay in the UK though.  Partly for family and friends, partly for job opportunities at the time and partly because Scotland has always been home for me and I struggled to leave it behind.  The Netherlands wasn't without it's issues either.  The grass isn't always greener.  But we're now both thoroughly sick of the politics and general malaise in the UK and I frequently wish we'd taken one of the offers to live somewhere else (not the ME though, never regretted turning that down).  My wife really misses the multi-culturalism and vibrancy of mainland Europe, the UK really does feel dour these days.  I doubt leaving the UK would ultimately make that much of a difference though, everyone everywhere is struggling.  I am hoping that Truss is the final death throes of the past 12 years of Tory misrule and we might end up with something better.  And I think it is better to stay here and try to help facilitate that change.

But seeking a political utopia anywhere is going to be a big ask.

There are many reasons to live elsewhere, better weather, bigger mountains, less people, nicer food etc. Politics IMO is not one of them. If the state of politics in the UK is making anyone think they should leave, then just stop watching the news.

For many people, it’s not “the news”, it’s watching their pay go less far, year after year. Look at the real wages of the lowest paid in the UK… compare that with… well, pick just about anywhere other than the USA. The depressing thing is that it’s irrelevant for them… as there isn’t a way out, they don’t have the means to move either. The “way out” is clear to those who are doing alright anyway, it isn’t for millions of people on lower incomes.

In my experience there are two types of people who talk about leaving the UK and there isn't a great deal of crossover between the two.

those who tell you how rubbish everything is here and how much greener the grass is somewhere else.
those who actually do it.

The UK is capable of being better, but also worse.

Re Swedish tax burden being similar - that may be true, but the childcare burden is non-existent, which is an absolutely massive thing. There are a great many people in the UK who want to work but can't, because they are single parents with kids. So they are a net expenditure for the government rather than a contribution. And this is not to blame the people themselves - it's a problem created by govt policy.

If Labour adopted free childcare as a policy they'd walk the next few elections and seal the policy into the nation forever, because lives would be built on it from middle to working classes. And the country would be far better for it.

As Caher above, Ireland specifically Iveragh peninsula. Mountains, nice beaches, good road cycling, hill walking seems to be the new cycling and Guinness

It would be slightly easier for us than lots as we have a house there already and property prices have gone up lots during, and post, COVID.

I’d probably be gone already if i didn’t have parental care duties, both my brothers have emigrated.

The UK is capable of being better, but also worse.

I find England to be pretty screwed at present, a general malaise, cheapness and f you attitude seems to permeate the country, coupled with crumbling infrastructure and a poor political ambit.