[Closed] Is it just me.......

Maybe scotroutes - maybe.

TJ – I would suggest being more accepting that not all of the English folk on here were involved in the invasion of Scotland in 1385.

I'm fairly sure TJ is, by birth, English. I don't think he has anything against English people, but he would like Scotland to be independent.

I’ve one Report outstanding that I’m now considering whether or not I should escalate to the site owners.

It’s not outstanding we looked at it and didn’t interrupt the same way as you did, there was no intent of malice.

I've tried a 'forum light' strategy just recently and my experience has improved significantly because of it.  I probably come on here just as often but post less and read more.  I'm spending more time on threads where people ask for, and receive advice or stuff like the 'what have you made recently thread'.  These show the better side of the place and the people who use it.

I had a quick look at the Ukraine thread as I am as interested (and concerned) as everyone else about it. But sadly it seems to have become a willy waving competition between a couple of protagonists who will die in a ditch before accepting there may be valid opinions on the matter which differ from their own.  There are a few threads like that which are just to and fro bickering and juvenile point scoring.  In the real world I am interested and engaged with politics and current affairs and will discuss with mates or even strangers over a beer, but it never ends well in here.  There is little discussion/concession  and too much having to 'win'.  There are a handful of forumites who seem to thrive on virtual fisticuffs and gravitate to those threads.  Not just here of course, it's t'nterweb innit.

Anyhoo, life is too short and seeking out threads with a more positive vibe comes recommended. Give it a try!

It’s not outstanding we looked at it and didn’t interrupt the same way as you did, there was no intent of malice.

Thanks for the feedback*. FWIW I think you are wrong and I will, therefore, escalate it. I don't think racism is acceptable on this site - regardless of who it is aimed at.

(* Question though - do you get so many reports that responding is a major overhead?)

Question though – do you get so many reports that responding is a major overhead?

Nope. It’s just we rarely feedback as there’s never really been a need.

Cool

and juvenile point scoring.

So who do you think scored the most ? 😀

😛

Ergo, I’m British. A radical mix from across the land.

We (as a nation) are mostly mongrels which makes the likes of Yaxley-Lennon even more ridiculous.

As regards the Eunice thread I actually read your posts and mine and came to the conclusion that both could be viewed in the same unpleasant manner, even though I knew that mine were only “trying to be funny”.

If you can give me examples of that I really would be very, very grateful. I've said before on here that I might be treating it as too "matey" in a way I really shouldn't. If there is something to be learned, then that would help me change my tone.

TIA

Are we talking about racism to southerners?

Just going for the juvenile points.

the thing is, when it’s the same “joke”, shoe-horned into every thread, it starts to sound more like racism than “humour”?

I think "racism" is the wrong word. Maybe comes across more like "look at us, look at us, those nasty English are picking on us again".

Maybe that's how it feels to some people up there, maybe with good reason, not for me to say from my position of supposed English privilege. The current political set up picks on plenty of English folk as well, though.

But not necessary on so many threads. It derails some good threads, and when there are genuine points and issues, they get lost in the general noise and not taken ad seriously as they deserve. Kind of like crying wolf.

I don’t think anyone is saying it’s racism. I don’t even think Nationalism is the correct term.
But look at the storm thread as an example. It’s a light hearted thread discussing the pretty severe weather across England and Wales and the local impact it is having. It is then, in my opinion, unnecessarily turned political, pointing out disparities in reporting between South East England and Scotland. It then descended for a page or two into arguing.

So while I don’t think it’s racist, it almost appears to be trolling or point scoring.

Its about what appears to me to be an increase in unpleasantness and how do we reduce this?

Maybe it's just an improvement in your own self-awareness? 😁

I think one of the telling points was actually on the DoY/VG thread. A poster, don’t remember who said ‘read the room’ as if consensus was the only thing that mettered

Yeah, that was directed at me. I read the room and saw a lot of people jerking their knees rather than engaging their brains.

I'm happy to admit that I'm wrong, but I'm damned if I'm going to be bullied into subservience.

(* Question though – do you get so many reports that responding is a major overhead?)

The problem is that a reply is often taken as an in-road to start an argument. Just look at what we're discussing right here. It's simply not worth the hassle.

If you're dissatisfied with a moderator decision or, well, anything on the site then you have a clear escalation path. Take it up with Mark.

On the storm thread I made a comment and got absolutely piled on with some pretty offensive statements made about me “bellend, chip on shoulder” etc.  The statement I made was not offensive nor was it an attack on anyone.  There must have bee more than a dozen posters make personal attacks on me there and I did not start the personal attacks

Nope. I didn't call you a bellend. I said the thread was derailed by bellendry. Which it was.

Fair enough - several bellend comments tho.

Is it just me…….

Honestly, the short answer is yes, yes it is. You're a person with strong opinions that you use to define who you are, and that makes defending them a priority. You're also attracted to politics and controversial subjects. I think you just need to admit/allow to yourself that it's not your job to convince people that your perspective is the "right" one.

A casual glance at the threads on here will show you loads of people having conversations that aren't "shouting matches" are offering advice, even loaning people tools and borrowing bikes.  If you don't know that those things are going on here, then it's a reflection of where your interests lie, rather than the content of the site.

I’ve just read back through that thread.

Hello chaps?  I am astonished that a throwaway remark caused so much angst.  Very amusing.  I wasn’t nasty to anyone.

Such a throwaway comment, you made the same point three times over several pages. And I can’t see the nasty responses you talk about either. Mocking maybe, but not nasty.

@nickc
That's totally unfair.
Whilst you make some valid points, TJ is one of the most helpful, kindest people on here.

Agree with jam-bo. Maybe you can't see it. Not a dig at you. No doubt your heart is in the right place, but in answer to the is it me question you do have a particular way with words and arguments

Also this post from the storm thread

someone who only a fortnight ago started a thread complaining about STW being “grumpy and unfunny” blunders into a harmless, fairly jovial, thread with a grumpy comment and immediately turns it into an unfunny us vs them argument

this thread was intended to be about what I perceive as a change in tone on here and wandering if others had seen the same thing

Some agree some do not.

Its not about me ( in general) complaining about my treatment.  Live by the sword and die by it

its just seems to me that folk are quicker to take it to personal insults and to be nasty then they used to be

it would seem that some agree with this thesis and perhaps the majority do not.

its just seems to me that folk are quicker to take it to personal insults and to be nasty then they used to be

There is some of that going on. A small selection of posters who tend to jump on certain things and would rather win the argument than discuss a point. Like blokeuptheroad mentioned earlier on this page that they have changed the way they use the forum to make their experience better, I do something similar.

TJ is one of the most helpful, kindest people on here.

I expect everyone on STW is also, but lets not get all Brokeback mountainy here, I mean coupled with those bellend references it's not the mental image i want  😆

I'm not sure writing a homophobic post is going to help much, @dyna-ti

Really. I hardly think so.

I assure you there is nothing homophobic about me 😉

If you're saying you're gay and people know you're gay, then those comments are less offensive.
If you're not, or people don't know you're gay, and on a mtb forum it's unlikely they would, then to me, those comments come across as homophobic.

it would seem that some agree with this thesis and perhaps the majority do not.

I don't think the answer is that straightforward. It is undoubtedly true that some punters feel the need to express their disagreement with a point someone has made by resorting to name-calling.

However whilst it's a tactic that clearly you don't use yourself TJ, and are in fact often on the recieving end, you can be highly provocative by being insulting in a completely different way.

For example if you strongly disagree with a point someone has made you will often begin your response with a two-word paragraph such as "Utter nonsense", which some people take as a person insult.

You also seem to struggle accepting that some people have simply come to a different conclusion to yourself. For example you have recently accused me of "doffing my cap" and accepting Tory lies because I don't always post in a way that reflects an intensely deep and undying hatred for every word uttered by a Tory.

Personally I don't mind your indirect insults, partly because I know it's just your way of expressing disagreement and partly because I'm just not really bothered by insults anyway, but I can see how it might cause a reaction in some people who resort with a personal insult back.

I do agree that you do appear to the subject of occasional group bullying though, when everyone seems to pile in, and that's never nice to see.

That’s totally unfair.

Really? which bit? It's not meant to be, TJ makes the comment that he thinks people are quick to take offense, but that's largely restricted to the threads that are by their nature controversial, and no great surprise. If those are the threads you naturally gravitate towards because you're interested in politics or world events , your view of the "tone " of the whole site is going to be skewed, isn't it?

If you’re saying you’re gay and people know you’re gay, then those comments are less offensive.

For starters its none of your business or anyone elses for that matter, as to whether im Gay, Straight or Bi. Should I appeal to one group or the other. Should I attempt to gain points, or have someones opinion of me now clouded by their hang ups, or can we say 'wokeness'

I maybe a joke, and thats all. If you found it off, then I apologize and that is the end of that.

Yes, it is @nickc, I agree
But when you mention threads that are about "loaning people tools and borrowing bikes", then TJ has contributed to those threads too and made generous offers of time and help.
Off the top of my head, he's offered to help me with my smoke alarms and I remember he played a big part in getting a car to another forum member.
All of us have our good and bad points, just nice to remember the good as well.

On the storm thread I made a comment and got absolutely piled on with some pretty offensive statements made about me “bellend, chip on shoulder” etc. The statement I made was not offensive nor was it an attack on anyone. There must have bee more than a dozen posters make personal attacks on me there and I did not start the personal attacks

Someone compared you to Neil Oliver and I replied that only one of them is an utter bellend (or words to that effect). I would like to make it *very* clear that person isn't you!

I wasn't asking @dyna-ti. As you say none of my business or anybody elses.
You just stated that there's nothing homophobic about you and I suggest that you might want to have a little think about that.

I hoped it was that Simon!

I think this thread shows a bit of what I was talking about.  the exchange between dyna ti and the pilot quickly escalated.

So homophobic comments are just bants now?
And we should all put up with them so this forum is less grumpy and more funny?
Aye, right.

Someone compared you to Neil Oliver and I replied that only one of them is an utter bellend (or words to that effect). I would like to make it *very* clear that person isn’t you!

That's how I understood it.

But then I started to wonder if perhaps TJ had an even greater ability to look smug and tousel his long hair in the wind.

No, I dont think i will. If I offend, then ill apologize at the time to whomever felt offended, for all the difference that would make really.

Happier ?.

I'd be happier if you had a little think and that way perhaps you wouldn't offend in the first place.

I've been here since the days when "beer" "the prawn" and the various versions of fred /padded bra were happily winding everybody up.

I don't really see that it's changed too much. I do think that there is more to argue about these days though. Twenty years ago there was no brexit, no covid, and our politicians were not always right but weren't a bunch of self serving, vacuous liars. I guess that breeds a more combative feel which can spill over from the political threads to others.

One thing I do wish though is that some individuals would be a little more sensitive to the subject matter. Whilst people have strong views on Shimano vs SRAM, ultimately no-one is going to get hurt by the disagreement.

But when the discussion is about race, gender, sexuality and religion, people's entire identities are being trashed and that's not acceptable. As a Non Binary person I've been told that I'm "making it up to get attention", that "there is XX and XY, I'm a scientist and teacher so I'm right and your identity doesn't exist". When I recounted a very harrowing incident that negatively shaped my life for years, one big hitter very strongly insinuated I was making it up. These sort of things show a total lack of humanity and sensitivity and reflect very badly on those individuals. There are a few forum names now that trigger me even if they are commenting on unrelated threads.

I guess what I'm saying is that some people forget that the letters they see on the screen in front of them are written by a person, not a computer, and those people may already be on the limit of what they can tolerate on that day.

But having said that the amount of positively I've received is way higher than the negativity so I remain convinced that humans in general and forum members on this site are on the whole good people.

We may be grumpy, but we can still choose to be kind.

Oh, and Shimano is WAYYYY better than SRAM. Fact!!

😁

^^^^^^^
Great post!

But having said that the amount of positively I’ve received is way higher than the negativity so I remain convinced that humans in general and forum members on this site are on the whole good people.

This in spades - the support I have had thru my recent troubles has been invaluable

You got riled, i said sorry. End of story.

Did you "say sorry" or were you actually sorry?

Surely either you concede that your post was out of order and offer a sincere apology, or you believe that your post was fine and don't. And honestly, I'm not equipped to comment in this particular case as to whether your post was offensive or not.

Part of my job involves vulnerability management. If we find an issue, it goes to the relevant resolver team to fix. But the final step isn't "we've patched it," rather it's "lessons learned". Ie, why did this happen and how do we prevent it happening again?

It's easy to say sorry (which is kind of odd when so many people seem reluctant to do so). But if you are sorry then you need to back that up rather than attempt to shut down further discussion with "end of". There is a Grand Canyon between "I'm sorry, I didn't realise that might be offensive and I'll try to do better next time" and "I'm sorry you were offended". And the rest of that paragraph patronising and belittling the other poster rather suggests one over the other.

'Sorry' - a word which increasing numbers of people can't even spell, let alone understand how to use it properly.

IMO the main problem with this place is that people take it way too seriously. Outside of the obvious serious threads where people need help or support, I generally take the view that nothing said here matters a jot so feel free to say what you like. Being offended by something someone says on the internet is pretty silly as it doesn't reflect real life.

I never said I was offended. I simply said a poster had written a homophobic comment. It's not the first time he's referenced anal sex. I was hoping it might be the last.

If you really think this: "Being offended by something someone says on the internet is pretty silly as it doesn’t reflect real life." Then I suggest you take a look at what some of our MPs are subjected to. Still, only something says on the internet, innit? Doesn't matter a bit.

Seems relevant…

https://twitter.com/emollick/status/1495181240567218179?s=21

Did you “say sorry”

No. It was a very Johnson-esque non apology 🙂

One thing I've noticed is threads getting closed because of the relentless deliberate contrariness

No they haven't

No they haven’t

Five minute, or full half hour?

I'll start with the 5 mins and see how that goes .....

I never said I was offended.

The other problem is people being over sensitive and a little bit paranoid. That comment I made was a general one in response to the OP and not directed at you.

Looks like I was mistaken then.
It's just, I can't agree with you that it doesn't matter what you say on the internet.
Also, calling somebody "overly sensitive" and "a little bit paranoid", well, it's pretty gaslighty to be honest.

Is the full half hour still going spare? I don’t know what’s going on but would hate to miss a bargain.

The ultimate Internet ****iness thread 🙁

A thread hiding/block button would be good for this forum.

‘Sorry’ – a word which increasing numbers of people can’t even spell, let alone understand how to use it properly.

Well it is the hardest word.

If in any doubt, it's now kicking off on a thread about coffee bags.

Yeah!

I think it’s time the Mod team and STW HQ had a chat.

it wisnae me this time 😉

Well it is the hardest word.

Well played sir

@boriselbrus - likewise, since 2003, but showing as 2008, after the Great Hack, and FreddedBra, or whatever username he happened to be using at any given time, was always a bit of a Ban Hammer™ © ® magnet, but he did start some great photography threads about architecture, and it did seem to be a shame when he went, until I started following him on Fb, and without any admin control he was unbearable.

I agree that there’s so much more going on politically, environmentally, and socially that there are far more contentious opinions around, driving more heated and confrontational conversations.

I avoid sport and political threads as I know bugger-all about either, and whatever opinions I might have aren’t worth posting ’cos I’m not really very good at presenting an argument, and especially not very good at backing it up, or rather being able to express it in a coherent manner.

I must say, though, that there are a number of members here who’ve contacted me personally about the situation I’ve found myself in regarding the loss of my partner, for which I thank you from the bottom of my heart! I may not have responded, mainly because I’ve not got much time available and also I’ve been feeling pretty emotionally drained and fragile, although things are improving, this weekend it’s exactly eleven months since I lost her, and I’ve managed to cope pretty well, but thanks again to everyone, it’s what makes this place so compelling.

I avoid sport and political threads as I know bugger-all about either, and whatever opinions I might have aren’t worth posting ’cos I’m not really very good at presenting an argument, and especially not very good at backing it up, or rather being able to express it in a coherent manner.

Sounds like you'll fit right in on those threads if you wanted 🙂

I avoid sport and political threads as I know bugger-all about either, and whatever opinions I might have aren’t worth posting ’cos I’m not really very good at presenting an argument, and especially not very good at backing it up, or rather being able to express it in a coherent manner.

Sorry, but that's no excuse to not get involved. Just pick a side and keep shouting it ever louder at every opportunity.

I can’t agree with you that it doesn’t matter what you say on the internet.

Ok I should have said it doesn’t matter what people say on here, as it’s a fairly anonymous place where you can be different to how you are in real life. That’s less true on other social media. I’d be much more upset if someone I know on Facebook called me a name than on here. Honestly a lot of people here need to lighten up a bit.

Honestly a lot of people here need to lighten up a bit.

Looking at myself in the mirror good and hard here, I'd be inclined to agree.

I'm realising that some real life stresses have been seeping into my posts of late, rather insidiously.

That said, I can't spend more than a couple of minutes on Twitter etc without my heart starting to race. This place is still my safe room on the net.😁

To be honest, I think it's pretty much alright here compared with many other parts of the internet.
I actually think the main problem is, as well as all the shite that's going on at the moment and the future not looking terribly hopeful if things continue as they are, internet forums are a narcissist's dream.
I think all human being are narcissists just to a lesser or greater degree. But forums attract people looking for supply and who can't get it elsewhere, those who just have to be heard, those with an elevated sense of their own self importance, those who have to be right and so on. They're also the ideal place for those who are unable to listen to anyone else.

Personally, I don't think that this place would be better by people lightening up but it might be better if people started to listen to others a bit more. Me included.

I stay away from most threads now, certain subjects and a few posters.

Feel very sad that hardly any women post much. Comments about lightening up and not taking things so seriously, or don't be so sensitive, doesn't help.
,

To be fair, you're on the back foot demographically to start with as the make-up of STW (and MTB generally) is something of a sausage fest.

But yes, I wholeheartedly agree. We could really do with a bit more diversity in posts beyond the usual vociferous opinions of white middle-aged heterosexual men with delusions of adequacy. It saddens me that you don't feel comfortable in posting more.

I'd go further with your final observation there. It's (arguably) fine when someone directs those comments at oneself, but levelling it at others is part of the problem. It's easy to treat someone like shit and then cry "you just need a thicker skin!" but, radical idea, how about we don't put people into situations where that may be a requirement in the first place? See also, "what's wrong with you / man up / it's just 'banter' / it's not 'real life' / typical [insert demographic here] / you're too sensitive" and a dozen other pseudo-excuses for what is essentially bullying. They've made someone feel bad and then rather than recognising this and apologising they're doubling down with "well, it's your own fault, you shouldn't be so soft."

To my chagrin I probably haven't always been in a position to take the moral high ground here either. But I do try.

then rather than recognising this

I’ll add that people assume personality or writing style onto this. I’ll likely be vilified on a thread where I’m asking decision making advice, whereas Esselgrunt can post one and it’s deal with humour and usefulness, Weeksy’s are dealt with a couple pages of reasonable technical suggestions before taking off into derision.

I’ll add that people assume personality or writing style onto this

Without knowing someone in real life this is a really difficult situation. Take wealth as an example from a recent thread. It's difficult for a number of reasons - one is the traditional British requirement to be humble about it; but it's also a pretty hot topic for a lot of people who may be struggling. In real life, you know your social group, and chances are they are going to be close to your socio-economic status. If not, this will necessarily have been dealt with tactfully and with consideration, otherwise they wouldn't be socialising with you in the first place.

On here though you could start a thread about which £5k bike or which £50k EV to get and that'll read by people you don't know who might be struggling to heat a house. If you were around a pub table with someone you knew was struggling you wouldn't even bring up which expensive bike is best. And yet, it's a bike forum so where else do you discuss it?

So when you (generally, not you Kryton) do bring it up those people can't help but label you internally as a rich dick, and that colours all future interactions.

Honestly a lot of people here need to lighten up a bit.

I think much of the cause of angst can be put down to interpretation of what you've (the general you, not you in particular) written. We've all of us written things that in our heads sounds like a joke or is meant to be taken as a joke, but none of us has any inkling of how our words will be interpreted by another reader, and suggesting that folks "lighten up" is the wrong end of the problem for me. It's the responsibility of the writer to be clear, not for the reader to try to infer the meaning

I think it probably should read "Honestly, a lot of people here need to write more carefully"

We’ve all of us written things that in our heads sounds like a joke or is meant to be taken as a joke, but none of us has any inkling of how our words will be interpreted by another reader, and suggesting that folks “lighten up” is the wrong end of the problem for me. It’s the responsibility of the writer to be clear, not for the reader to try to infer the meaning

I think it probably should read “Honestly, a lot of people here need to write more carefully”

Thats me. I tend to deal with folk on here the same as I do in person but, lacking other cues, it can come across wrongly.

As someone elsewhere in the internet said......

'Definition of Futility - Arguing with someone on the internet'

and

'If the Internet were a place, it would be a mental hospital full of narcissists all shouting at the top of their voices seeking attention'

Do not feed the Trolls...

It's not trolling though. Trolling is a specific thing, in which people deliberately go on the wind-up. There are, fortunately, very few trolls on STW.

This is about genuine people, and how they conduct themselves online. Most people here are not actively trying to piss off the other participants in the debate, so a degree of reflection is useful.

I do wonder, though, how the people who say 'I don't really realise how I come across online' manage in an office environment?!

I’ll add that people assume personality or writing style onto this.

Perhaps you need more smileys? 😁

Thats me. I tend to deal with folk on here the same as I do in person but, lacking other cues, it can come across wrongly.

I've said this before but it's something I'm trying to be a bit more open and introspective about. I assume that everyone I interact with "knows" me. It can (and does) blow up in my face when I say something as a throwaway comment or what at least in my head is sarcasm for humorous purposes and it gets taken too seriously.

As nick said,

It’s the responsibility of the writer to be clear, not for the reader to try to infer the meaning

I wholly agree, but I think we'd all be a lot better off if both reader and writer cut each other a little slack.

Cougar - '...delusions of adequacy' - love it!

I think it probably should read “Honestly, a lot of people here need to write more carefully”

Ok I see where this is going. My question is do we want this place to be a sanitised, completely inoffensive place like a workplace where we all have to conform to a contrived standard of communication and behaviour? Or should we be allowed to be ourselves - or even not ourselves - at the risk of causing offence to people who have a lower bar for these things? If the former then I'm out. I've no interest in this place turning into a new linkedin with all it's fake positivity, enthusiasm and disingenuity.

Maybe it's just me, but I like the disagreements, the bunfights, the pedantry, pettyness and all the other things that others seem to find so offensive. There should be a basic respect of course, and I draw the line at personal abuse or bullying, but that's it. Quite frankly the endless and pedantic arguments I have with the likes of Kelvin and Binners make an otherwise boring day a little less so. If people don't like them, then don't read them!

I do wonder, though, how the people who say ‘I don’t really realise how I come across online’ manage in an office environment?!

Speaking as someone with autism, I don't manage that well in office environment. The last two years working at home was great for me!
I am not that bad in the office but I am very direct and not really good at picking up emotions which is similar to online really.

I learned the hard way just how different interpretations of the same phrase can lead to trouble.

A customer texted me listing 2 or 3 snags on some wardrobes I was in the process of building for her. Because I was due to finish the next day and I wanted to make sure that was a complete list so I could take the necessary tools and materials to fix the snags I texted back "Is that all?"

She interpreted that in a completely different way, thinking I was implying they were insignificant issues, and therefore she was just being picky (not what I meant at all) and it blew up rather badly.

Maybe it’s just me, but I like the disagreements, the bunfights, the pedantry, pettyness and all the other things that others seem to find so offensive.

That's you libdems all over