[Closed] Is it ethical or legal to overtake a car thats going slow in a traffic jam

If it really was 600ft then fair enough I reckon.

Do you mean one lane going each way, or a single track road?

He's going at the same speed with a bigger gap which requires less concentration, requires less stop start and wastes less fuel/clutch plate. I do it in most jams but accept that some people won't understand and overtake. Most however are happy to follow along not having to brake or accelerate.

No probs with it. You snooze, you lose.

So, Were you the overtaker or the overtakee?

I have no idea why you would tbh. Whther it's acceptable or not, I don't know, it just seems daft to do it, it's a big gap but it's not a meaningful gap

Who cares who's right. It's driving hence everyone acts like idiots

a bigger gap which requires less concentration, requires less stop start and wastes less fuel/clutch plate.

600ft plus at 10mph? Silly. There's leaving a sensible gap and then there's just being silly. That's the latter.

Nothing illegal, just what's the point?
Plus leaving a large gap means less stop/starting.

No different to pushing in front in the queue in the supermarket. It's just rude. In fact I can't think of a single reason why you would, other than to look like a dick.

Dunno about ethical or legal but it's just [b]Pointless[/b] IMO.

I do the 'leave a gap' thing to eliminate all the stop/start, but more like a couple if car lengths.

600ft is just daft!!

200m is a lot. I'd normally go up a gear at about 40m and rely on the engine management system to marginally increase speed and maintain/close the gap. I'm not the only one to do it in this part of the world. However, start-stopping and constantly sitting 5m behind the car in front is pointless, tiring and wasteful.

why would you...it will gain you nothing as you the have to wait behind car infront

some people are just impatient dicks however..

600ft == 180 metres. There's a gap and there's interstellar space.

Smoke him.

Single carrigeway road one lane each direction 60 mph speed limit

600ft gap at 10mph? 😯

That bloke shouldn't be driving if he gets piss off with people filling in the gap.

Smoke him.

With a gap that large at that speed you'd kinda think that the driver is either going to turn off or doing something else as well - mobile etc.

So no problem with the overtake.

I'd have no trouble with the car in front leaving a 180m gap if the accordion movement indicated the thing causing the jam were kms away but 180m in the last 200m before traffic light would be anti-social. You can often see the jam for kms ahead, what's the rush or the problem with a gap?

The overtakers can overtake though and rejoice in having gained a place in the queue and the right to breathe the fumes of the car they end up sitting behind.

As long as you beat him on STRAVA then it's legit (douchebaggery of the highest order but legit)

"The moving segment"

The size of the gap is irrelevant really. You're still all stuck in the same queue. Very occasionally people do leave a gap that is perhaps a little larger than needed....by a fair margin. But people actually think it's OK to push in front?

For those that do, I'd genuinely like to know what you think you gain from it?

the driver in front of you suddenly decides to allow 600feet plus to the car in front of him, all while travelling at less than 10 mph

Given the numbers, and that this is really about how it's perceived from behind rather than actual synapses in the guys' head, I question your definition of "suddenly".

I can't think of a single reason why you would, other than to look like a dick.

This.

It's all context dependent, of course, but personally I've grown tired (mentally and physically) of dragging my clutch and wasting fuel just to maintain some sort of expected proximity to whatever's in front of me, so I don't bother shuffling up with every baby step forward that the queue takes. It's not as if pretending to be roped to the bumper in front gets anyone anywhere quicker, so whilst an [i]actual[/i] 600ft gap would be pretty hardcore laid-back, jumping into a gap is just dickwaddery.

But yes, it's legal. There's no law against being a massive bungnut.

Ive seen someone try to overtake an audi rs4 doing this in a transit.

Rs4 clocked him and shut the door. Car behind him shut th door

The transit was left looking like the dick he was for a few cars before he got back in. Oh how we laughed.

What makes you think the overtaking was the cause of the anger? Perhaps it was something entirely different?

The guy being overtaken (let's call him Jeff, because that's his real name) was on his way to the vet with his dog, Buster. Buster had been a happy, bouncy, slightly manic labrador, until a few hours earlier, when he'd been badly attacked by a huge alsation/rottweiler/wolf cross with an owner as uncaring as he was irresponsible. Now, Buster was dying, in the back of Jeff's car, his blood slowly seeping into the seats.

Jeff turned round to check on Buster, but it was too late. Buster looked up at him, not understanding what was happening, feebly wagged his tail one last time, and then his eyes glazed over, and he was gone.

Jeff slowed down to just 10mph, his eyes filled with tears at the loss of his lifelong companion, remembering when he first brought home his tiny puppy, the times they'd been together, and how it had so needlessly ended.

Just then, a car roared past him. He glanced up - and saw that the driver was the owner of the dog that had killed his beloved Buster. Fury and rage overwhelmed him. Jeff is not a violent man, and so all he did then was to shake his fists. But an icy cold fury came over him. And he knew that he would not rest until Buster's death had been avenged.

I was in a traffic jam type queue last week - leaving a reasonable gap in order to avoid having to brake etc., but nowhere near 600ft, and probably doing 20-30mph. Got overtaken. I used my horn, but didn't act like a dick and gave him space to pull into. A few miles later, overtaker pulls off road on which traffic is queueing on, having gained almost nothing at all.

[quote=project ]Thankfully i was just a spectator last week but witnessed it again today.

So which one were you today?

I, too, would like to know what folk think they've gained other than a single car space.

I think it demonstrates how personal some people take day to day road events. You're sat behind someone that is behaving in a manner you're not happy with and he's holding you up - 'smoke him'...!

A quick glance in the mirror and a "**** you" slips from your lips.

Done it and felt like a prick. Grew up and started leaving gaps.

Further confirmation Audi drivers are... law breakers. You all know the rule, don't accelerate when being overtaken.

Oldnpastit - I'll have some of that shit you're smoking, fella.

A wasted talent there, methinks.

*nominates oldnpastit's post for "Best Written Article" in the Readers' Awards*

Further confirmation Audi drivers are... law breakers. You all know the rule, don't accelerate when being overtaken.

It's just a Highway Code rule, you're not inherently breaking any law by doing it.

200 yards gap is a bit big but the overtakee is still a selfish sod .
2 or 3 cars lengths would be in my book the sort of distance I leave in 1mph traffic eg queuing for lights. You never ever get close enough to the car in front to stop you manoeuvring round it.
As far as I am concerned, if you don't have your own blue lights flashing, you should wait patiently rather than save a few minutes.

I've had the guy behind me overtake when in a stationary jam a gap of approx 4 car lengths appeard in front of me; I couldn't see the point of starting the engine just to creep forward a bit. He stared and shook his head like [b]I[/b] was the idiot as he crept past.

****ing tool

Regardless it was funny- as i cycled past the ratrace clawing their way to the office getting steadily angrier with each

Further confirmation Audi drivers are... law breakers. You all know the rule, don't accelerate when being overtaken.

[quote=Bez ]

Further confirmation Audi drivers are... law breakers. You all know the rule, don't accelerate when being overtaken.

Breaking a HC rule is usually good evidence for a careless driving prosecution though - I should think closing up a gap when being overtaken easily qualifies for at least that.

Bloke up here just got convicted of dangerous driving for doing exactly that, although there was also oncoming traffic (far enough away that the overtake was safe had our hero not been a dick, before anyone asks 🙂 ).

In that example I would close the gap if I was 40yrs younger, nowadays I just smile and say get on with it if you think you are getting your kicks 😳 🙄 😉 the road I travel regularly from Gretna to Dumfries is like whacky races most days!!

Just the other day I was in a bit of a tail back, lots of agri machinery about at the moment. Kia Sportage comes up behind me. I had clocked that amongst the lorries, cars, vans and tractors there would be little point in trying any overtake. Anyway, on the only long straight Mr Sportage decides to give it a go! It just happened to be his lucky day, he cleared all the traffic just as he hit the chevrons for the next blind bend having overtaken 10-15 vehicles!!

Breaking a HC rule is usually good evidence for a careless driving prosecution though

In the context of inconveniencing a self-important bellend in an expensive car, maybe, maybe not. But in many other contexts, no, not really.

trail_rat - Member

Ive seen someone try to overtake an audi rs4 doing this in a transit.

Rs4 clocked him and shut the door. Car behind him shut th door

A trio of *ers, *ing at each other, it's so beautiful 😆

(I didn't know that was in the swear filter btw! You live and learn)

So, someone leaves a massive gap, for what ever rule. Someone else passes them (Assuming no risk / dangerous overtake) and what do we have?

Who cares! One car is now 5m behind where they might have been, 1 car is 5m ahead.. Neither have "gained" or "lost" anything.

It's pretty easy really. If you are the sort of person who gets "upset" about being overtaken, then try and keep up with the flow of the traffic! (even if that traffic is stationary.....)

Depends on the driver who's leaving the gaps IMO.

If they are doing it to continue at a more sensible, steady speed then fine, but that involves allowing the gap to grow & shrink as appropriate.

I've seen plenty who just leave a massive gap and hold it even when the queue in front has stopped. Imagine if we all did that, the queues would be bloody gargantuan, and so those drivers deserve to be overtaken (and have their licenses rescinded).

Allowing such a massive gap only worsens the concertina effect and thus the traffic jam.

Just the other day I was in a bit of a tail back, lots of agri machinery about at the moment. Kia Sportage comes up behind me. I had clocked that amongst the lorries, cars, vans and tractors there would be little point in trying any overtake. Anyway, on the only long straight Mr Sportage decides to give it a go! It just happened to be his lucky day, he cleared all the traffic just as he hit the chevrons for the next blind bend having overtaken 10-15 vehicles!!

I used to do this when I had a powerful car, got into the habit of doing it even when I was in a Euro shopping trolley. Stopped doing it when I saw someone try it past a load of hay bale lorries doing ~20mph travelling from Hereford to Brecon during harvest season. There's a bit of road that is straight for a good mile but has hidden dips. The road did indeed look clear but there was a tractor hidden in one of the dips and the overtaker didn't see it until way too late. I didn't see the impact as they'd gone out of view but the noise was awful. Driver was killed instantly, rod was closed for a few hours.

Of the original Q, if it's one car and the gap is huge then I'd still overtake if there was plenty of space to do so, otherwise I'm happy to just relax and pootle along with everyone else these days.

I'd probably take an overtaking opportunity. Not necessarily because it'd immediately get me anywhere with a queue ahead, so much as anyone who feels the need for a 600' gap at 10mph is probably going to carry on bimbling along at 10mph long after the queue clears. Plus if the queue is a tailback behind a slow vehicle, they'll sit behind it until the heat death of the universe.

Ditto. 180m is a huge distance when travelling at 10mph and indicates (to me) poor driving, I'd rather get past said dodderer to avoid potential aggro* later on.

* of course they might just pile into the back of me due to said dodderyness.

3 local roads to watch it happen, Hoole road in chester 30 mph speed limit, tailbacks into the city

Coast road at Ainsdale to Southport, cycle lane goes alongside it, so plenty of viewing opportunities,

and the A 483 from the Ruabon to A5 turn off. If ever on these roads at busy times check it out.

600ft == 180 metres. There's a gap and there's interstellar space.
Smoke him.

#awesomedriverthread

It's often the case for these drivers that once they have to queue for more than about 1 min, they just seem to "give up" and then completely switch off and totally fail to attempt to make any progress.

Our road network is busy. When you get to a feature, like a roundabout, junction, set of traffic lights or whatever, you need to navigate that feature at a safe speed, but also at a speed which is commensurate with clearing that feature for others in as reasonably a short time as possible.

Time after time i sit in a long queue at say a set of traffic lights, where the lights change to green and yet no one moves. Then just 3 cars dawdle through, and the lights go red again. And yet, the 50 drivers held up by those lights seem oblivious as to what is holding them up!

These dawdler seem to not understand basic maths: ie if 1000 cars an hr want to use a junction, just 1 sec delay per car will result in a huge queue.............

I'm happy to roll along at, say 15mph, when the car in front is doing 30 - stop - 30 - stop in the queue to a roundabout. No-one behind ever seems bothered by that, and I close up on the car in front sometimes. I think it's easier for them too. Though I don't see it catching on. But 600ft is going to wind up everyone.

And as mt above says, we should all fit through the junction efficiently.

It's often the case for these drivers that once they have to queue for more than about 1 min, they just seem to "give up" and then completely switch off and totally fail to attempt to make any progress.

Plenty of times in the van I would just leave it ticking along get in second and just slowly roll along of there was no point in closing up the gap quickly.
Remember the phrase you are not stuck in traffic you are the traffic.

just 1 sec delay per car will result in a huge queue.............

It won't change anything at all with traffic flowing smoothly unless the gap between the cars is greater than 3.6 seconds in your 1000 car example. The dawdlers understand basis maths and know the only time it's worth making an effort to get away promptly is when you're in the group of cars that will get through the lights before they change. The rest of the time it doesn't matter.

Cars are slowed down on congested motorways such as the M42 to avoid queues at junctions.

^^ er what??

if there is a "queue" at a feature then by definition that feature is resulting in a bottleneck, and hence every car passing through it adds to that bottleneck!

So, if there is always "a group of cars that will get through the lights before they change" ie, they will go red and someone, in the queue will have to stop. So, on every Green light you need to maximise the number of cars that pass that feature! Hence every "delay" is additive.

On the Mway, all the 50mph limit does is to make the queue a "rolling" one. I.E instead of being stationary, it slows people down BEFORE they get to the feature. As a result you are still held up by precisely the same amount of time as before, but you are moving whilst being held up!

For example, my local town bypass put a new traffic light controlled junction (previously normal r/about) on the main M-way exit to the Town. Town councilors proudly announced after a years study that "Congestion in the Town has fallen by 30%". ER Der, Of course it has, every one is now queuing OUTSIDE the town you idiots!

They claim "traffic congestion has been massively reduced" which to anyone with even half a brain just shows how massively stupid people like this are..............

mikewsmith
Plenty of times in the van I would just leave it ticking along get in second and just slowly roll along of there was no point in closing up the gap quickly.

And there is nothing wrong with this^^^ as long as it is done sensibly! It should be clear that "slowly rolling along in gear with enough of a gap to avoid stop/starting" is a whole different kettle of fish to "stopping completely and leaving a '600' yard gap!

As a driver part of your responsibility is to drive your car in a fashion that gives other drivers the minimum inconvenience. There are plenty of scenarios where occupying the moral or legal "High ground" inconveniences others, and this would be one of them.

At this point I could build a nice little model to show queue times and journey times to demonstrate why such things work, how and why logic doesn't always hold true... But it's a nice Sunday. The variable speed limits can improve flow and journey times by management rather than just keeping things moving. People's obsession with making a place or few seconds are part of the problem.

you idiots!

which to anyone with even half a brain just shows how massively stupid people like this are..............

We're really not. A couple of advantages over and above the smooth, regular flow of traffic.

At a lower speed a greater number of cars can be stocked on the motorway whilst still respecting a two second gap.

The accordion effect is much reduced so there are less accidents which result in lane or road closures.

More cars will get through a junction if they are already moving than if they have to start up to approach the junction, particularly at roundabouts.

What's the difference between the OP's point and this:

I'm cycling a long a road, approx 100m from a set of traffic lights (currently red) a car behind me accelerates to overtake and then immediately pulls in and has to brake sharply for the red light. I then re-overtake the now stationary car and take primary position in the ASL box and slowly make my way forward when the light goes green.

IMO, both are evidence of the same thing - a lot (perhaps a majority, perhaps not) of drivers have no concept of what will actually cause any sort of delay in their journey time. In the OP the overtaking driver had clearly decided that the chap in front was having a delaying impact on his journey, when clearly any rational thought would suggest otherwise. In my example exactly the same applies, however it happens so often I wonder if there is some psychological basis for it.

This is similar to people taking massively circuitous routes to avoid traffic, when often these routes actually take longer than if you just went the direct route and accepted you might be stationary for 5mins at some point during the journey.

The change in psychology of people when they get behind the wheel of a car is fascinating imo. They behave in ways they otherwise wouldn't and which are entirely illogical.

mikewsmith - Member
At this point I could build a nice little model to show queue times and journey times to demonstrate why such things work, how and why logic doesn't always hold true

Had a little bit of a LOL at that^^^

(the irony of building a mathematical model to show that logic doesn't hold true! Let me help you with that TRUE = FALSE. there! 😉

PS, this post is mean't tongue in cheek and should be taken that way!!!)

Incidentally, the "maximise thoughput too preventing queuing" only works because on average, drivers do dawdle and fail to proceed!

maxtorque - Member

As a driver part of your responsibility is to drive your car in a fashion that gives other drivers the minimum inconvenience. There are plenty of scenarios where occupying the moral or legal "High ground" inconveniences others, and this would be one of them.

Go on then, what's the inconvenience of leaving the gap? I'll give you a clue: the person behind will arrive at their destination at exactly the same time as they would if the gap hadn't been left.

Edukator
At a lower speed a greater number of cars can be [b]stocked[/b] on the motorway whilst still respecting a two second gap.

Interesting choice of words you have used to attempt to persuade me that going slower helps one get to where one is going faster...... 😆

3 local roads to watch it happen, Hoole road in chester 30 mph speed limit, tailbacks into the city

Coast road at Ainsdale to Southport, cycle lane goes alongside it, so plenty of viewing opportunities,

and the A 483 from the Ruabon to A5 turn off. If ever on these roads at busy times check it out.

The A483 is likely done by locals who know that there's no point racing to the McDonalds roundabout as this is the likely cause of traffic building up, and the dual carriagway going from 2 lanes to one at Ruabon. Why not sit back and enjoy the view if there is a traffic jam? If you're in that much of a rush, wait until you get past the roundabout and attack the traffic head on as you drop towards the Gledrid roundabout. either way you're going to get wound up at the lack of passing opportunities once you get past Oswestry anyway.

I question your ability to judge traffic and drive safely

pjt201

Go on then, what's the inconvenience of leaving the gap? I'll give you a clue: the person behind will arrive at their destination at exactly the same time as they would if the gap hadn't been left.

It's the fact that the following driver can misconstrue your actions, resulting in them overtaking and both them and you getting angry with each other over nothing whatsoever!

Remember, when driving other people on the road aren't physic! The following driver, when they see what they consider to be abnormal actions WILL react. It doesn't matter if you are or are not causing any greater obstruction, simply being perceived to be doing so is enough to cause inconvenience.

@maxtorque - I think your definition of inconvenience must be different to mine. This all goes back to the bizarre logic displayed by many drivers. (myself included sometimes).

The following driver, when they see what they consider to be abnormal actions WILL react

Might react. When I slow down to let tailgaters go I sometimes get down to walking pace before they wake up and overtake.

Might react. When I slow down to let tailgaters go I sometimes get down to walking pace before they wake up and overtake.

Not trying to teach anyone anything, just trying to avoid being crashed in to.

pjt201 - Member
@maxtorque - I think your definition of inconvenience must be different to mine. This all goes back to the bizarre logic displayed by many drivers. (myself included sometimes).

So why so you think the following driver felt the need to overtake?

I'm using the word "inconvenience" to refer to any driving actions you (or i) might make that causes another driver to react or change their course or speed.

For example, I often see people pull out into the right hand land of the Mway, causing a rapidly approaching (often speeding) car in that lane to have to brake.

Now they are completely within their right to do that, but it inconveniences the other driver and adds unnecessary risk and the potential for anger that could have easily been avoided.
Of course, the rapidly approaching driver in L3 also needs to understand that the car following that lorry in L2 might pull out in front of them, as it works both ways!

This is what i mean: Drive in a fashion that brings you into the MINIMUM potential conflict with other road users!

Classic STW motoring thread - it's like the Jeremy Vine show in here.
If someone was stopped in front of me and left a 600' gap I'd think they'd broken down.

As TJ used to point out, sometimes adopting a road position which is safe will irritate other road users. Most of the time being polite and courteous are also safe. Sometimes just respecting the law winds people up. I mentioned the aggressive behaviour driving a van at the van speed limit can provoke though some posters didn't believe me. Overtake in L3 at the limit plus speedo error and some people will get angry with you (tailgate, horn, flashing lights). Some people will seek conflict, don't let them bully you into doing something less safe.

Madame leaves big gaps, this sometime irritates drivers behind. However, when the car in front of her aquaplaned and span she just gently braked, didn't crash into it and didn't get hit from behind.

3 local roads to watch it happen, Hoole road in chester 30 mph speed limit, tailbacks into the city
Coast road at Ainsdale to Southport, cycle lane goes alongside it, so plenty of viewing opportunities,

and the A 483 from the Ruabon to A5 turn off. If ever on these roads at busy times check it out.

You want to overtake on Hoole Road? Asking the question and using this as an example says more about you and your driving, and my impression is not good.
This is a busy road with cars parked on either side with many side roads where traffic want to join the flow. I have driven down here leaving space for cars to join Hoole Rd or turn right into Faulkner Street.
Why do I do this? Because I know there is nothing to be gained by being nose to tail and if anything, not allowing other traffic to flow is likely to create more problems. You're not going to gain anything as you're likely to get caught at either of the two pedestrian crossings in Hoole and Flookersbrook, if not there, you'll get caught at the Brook Street lights.
I look forward to your "Why won't people let me pull out of the side road?" thread.
EDIT: I challenge you to drive down this road at 30mph and I bet a huge gap opens up infront of you too.
The A483 is likely done by locals who know that there's no point racing to the McDonalds roundabout as this is the likely cause of traffic building up, and the dual carriagway going from 2 lanes to one at Ruabon. Why not sit back and enjoy the view if there is a traffic jam? If you're in that much of a rush, wait until you get past the roundabout and attack the traffic head on as you drop towards the Gledrid roundabout. either way you're going to get wound up at the lack of passing opportunities once you get past Oswestry anyway.

I question your ability to judge traffic and drive safely

POSTED 3 HOURS AGO #

Thankfully not me i was just an observor on many times on these roads, also theres a crossing at Park Drive,new doublw yellow lines, 2 footway build outs at the crossing points a traffic island a speed camera, and a shared use cycle path all on Hoole road.

I now question your ability to read the thread properley abnd to observe all the above points

[b]Thankfully not me i was just an observor[/b] on many times on these roads, also theres a crossing at Park Drive,new doublw yellow lines, 2 footway build outs at the crossing points a traffic island a speed camera, and a shared use cycle path all on Hoole road.