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Now, I remember when all this Syrian lunacy started that there was a clamour to start arming and training the Free Syrian Army, now that happened imo. And then it went all quiet about the arming and training, and all of a sudden IS appear from no where, heavily armed, and trained, and start a mad dash across Syria and Iraq.
You can't tell me that there isn't a connection there. I'd suspect, desertion en masse from the FSA.
Whether that was intentional or not is up for debate, but I reckon that's exactly how it happened. I've always thought that and it perplexes me that the arming of the FSA always went under the radar in our media after the clamour.
But bringing the MIC into it, strikes me as awfy convenient there's alot of tax dollars going into the above, add to that the bombing runs, the arming of the Kurds etc. Well...cynical, me, never! 😆 There's a shitload of arms manufacturers creaming it in anyhow...
Yeah, sure, why not.
There's a shitload of arms manufacturers creaming it in anyhow...
Sweet, where's that then?
all of a sudden IS appear from no where
Really?
and all of a sudden IS appear from no where
No they didn't.
But bringing the MIC into it, strikes me as awfy convenient there's alot of tax dollars going into the above, add to that the bombing runs, the arming of the Kurds etc. Well...cynical, me, never! There's a shitload of arms manufacturers creaming it in anyhow...
The situation in the Middle East is a complete Western foreign policy **** up, not some carefully thought out strategy going to plan.
ernie_lynch - Member
and all of a sudden IS appear from no where
No they didn't.
Assume, apear from no where ment in relation to being heavily armed and trained. Not the actual origins of IS, which I know go back a bit further.
Read The Rise of Islamic State by Patrick Cockburn.
ernie_lynch - MemberThe situation in the Middle East is a complete Western foreign policy **** up, not some carefully thought out strategy going to plan.
Well, that's why I say that bit is up for debate, may not be planned, but you can't say that Western foriegn policy **** ups aren't exactly good for business if you're in the arms trade.
I wouldn't say there's top level government meetings where they think right how can we **** shit up so that loads of people kill each other. But I can very much imagine, there's some unsavoury characters actively encouraging silly foreign policy.
There's a shitload of arms manufacturers creaming it in anyhow...
Are you referring to the "used machete and tired AK47 dealers?"
May well do. I hope there's a chapter on the hijacking of the FSAs arms and training though! 😆Scapegoat - Member
Read The Rise of Islamic State by Patrick Cockburn.
gears_suck - Member
There's a shitload of arms manufacturers creaming it in anyhow...Are you referring to the "used machete and Tired AK47 dealers?"
No, the more sophisticated type.
No, the more sophisticated type.
Ah yes. The second hand tank, converted 1989 toyota pick up, and faulty rocket launcher, dealers.
Not forgetting. "How to be a Coward for Cowards" handbook and the ever popular Exploding Vest Emporium. I believe they are taking Paypal now.
May well do. I hope there's a chapter on the hijacking of the FSAs arms and training though!
It may be a bit more complicated than that, but the interests of the arms trade, and the route that a lot of military hardware takes from source to IS propaganda videos and parades may tickle your fancy.
gears_suck - Member
No, the more sophisticated type.Ah yes. The second hand tank, converted 1989 toyota pick up, and faulty rocket launcher, dealers.
Not forgetting. "How to be a Coward for Cowards" handbook and the ever popular Exploding Vest Emporium. I believe they are taking Paypal now.
Aye, IS hold the territory of 10 million people with a couple of flick knives. you must be right...
Scapegoat - Member
May well do. I hope there's a chapter on the hijacking of the FSAs arms and training though!It may be a bit more complicated than that, but the interests of the arms trade, and the route that a lot of military hardware takes from source to IS propaganda videos and parades may tickle your fancy.
Aye I'm well aware it'll be much more complicated that my OP, that's really just a simplistic starting point for discussion of a general concept.
I probably will take a look at that book. ta.
Oh yeah. I forgot about the flick knives. Good call.
Guessing the ultimate point I'm trying to make here is that the "solution" to IS won't be found in Syria or Iraq.
I doubt it'll even be found in America tbh, before people accuse me of that. I believe their government is as manipulated as any.
There is NO solution. Just that. You cant solve an ideology.
Which ideology?
seosamh77 - Member
Guessing the ultimate point I'm trying to make here is that the "solution" to IS won't be found in Syria or Iraq.
I thought the point you were trying to make was it was all the fault of the arms industry and that people had created IS by sending weapons to Syria.
In some ways the middle east could do with just sorting itself out (very cold assessment) but the impact on ordinary people would be terrible and the bit the west is really worried about is what would win.
Aye, IS hold the territory of 10 million people with a couple of flick knives. you must be right...
Perhaps holding territory with fear and coming together to be a large group who impose their will with fear and terror. Kill half a village and the other half will fall in line.
Afghanistan is a good example of what you can do with very limited resources (both wars)
As far as books on the arms industry and its vested interests go I thought [url= http://www.theshadowworldbook.com/ ]The Shadow World[/url] was pretty good. Quite a few case studies.
IS is a by product of failed US intervention in the middle east, It's just like the South east Asia in the 60/70's the yanks left that in a huge mess after fighting an ideology.
IS is a product of history.
All of it.
[i]the yanks left that in a huge mess after fighting an ideology.[/i]
Application of huge amounts of violence onto countries that don't comply with their wishes is the US ideology, it's hardly a massive surprise that the groups that arise to counter that are themselves expert in the use of violence.
Hmm, I'm left wondering which sections of the Military industrial complex are making a fortune out of Ww2 era surplus STG44
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There are news reports that over 5000 were seized in Syria
Then we have a look at some of the videos of weapons captured by various forces out there
Boxes and boxes of dusty mid Cold War era kit - most of which could likely be traced back to Russian kit supplied in and around the Yom Kippur war.
RPG's, AK74's, SA7 Grail - the whole region has been swimming in this kit for decades, it's hardly keeping the modern industrial complex going!
RPG's, AK74's, SA7 Grail - the whole region has been swimming in this kit for decades, it's hardly keeping the modern industrial complex going!
But the presence of all that crappy old kit in the region is probably quite persuasive when the military-industrial-complex invites representatives from "more friendly" regimes in the area to come and look at shiny new kit. Who then use that shiny kit in their somewhat more stealthy oppression of ethnic and religious groups who then want to get their hands on more crappy old kit in response.
So in answer to the original question, a bit, yeah.
But its also - as piemonster points out - a product of history, and not necessarily ancient history. On Sunday, the Observer had [url= http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/04/west-true-role-in-srebrenica-massacre-bosnia ]this[/url] story, about declassified cables showing the role played by western governments (including our own) in the massacre of 8,000 Bosnian Muslims at Srebrenica, 20 years ago. Eight thousand people from a single religious/ethnic grouping murdered, in the space of a few days, in Europe, in 1995.
I can't help feeling there's a bit more to it than a twisted ideological fundamentalism, oil reserves and decades of failed US foreign policy.
decades of failed US foreign policy
You think that UK foreign policy over the decades has been any better - from the attack of Egypt over Suez to the overthrow of democracy and installation of a dictator in Iran ?
Of course not, but the US are and have, since the end of Soviet involvement, been the prime movers in the region.
Is Islamic State a product JUST of the military industrial complex.
No.
It's product of a long-term mixing of:
The 1916 Sykes-Picot agreement
20th century oil-related geopolitics
The global will to give Jews a safe homeland post-WW2.
The rise of political Islamism based on the writings of Sayyid Qutb
You could file 'military industrial complex' under 'oil-related geopolitics.'
There's are other factors but these are the four long term root causes.
ninfan - MemberHmm, I'm left wondering which sections of the Military industrial complex are making a fortune out of Ww2 era surplus STG44
They're making a bit more out of the stuff being used to fight it- as of last November the US campaign alone was being costed at about $320m a month.
Always wonder what would happen if instead of shooting a tomahawk at someone you fired briefcases with a million dollars in them at someone else.
they are a product of the west's involvement in the region
create and train an army to overthrow a dictator...this way they do the dirty work.
when it fails the west can distance itself as it never got directly involved like it did in Iraq/Afghanistan.
this failed army of rebels then evolves itself into IS and realises that there is a "wounded lion" (Iraq) there for the taking as thats another place the west has cocked up in.
if you read some of the local regional reports or articles from those who are closer to it, there's a different way of looking at it.
some of this may be coincidental or just conspiracy...but there is a wide spread belief that Al-Baghdadi and a few other senior members are in fact non-arabs and have strong connections to Mossad.
this feeds into the theory that ISIS stands for Israeli Secret Intelligence Service.
Northwind - Member
ninfan - Member
Hmm, I'm left wondering which sections of the Military industrial complex are making a fortune out of Ww2 era surplus STG44They're making a bit more out of the stuff being used to fight it- as of last November the US campaign alone was being costed at about $320m a month.
yip add in the arming of the kurds, and selling various new shiny weaponary to the various surrounding states etc.
I'm not sayings that ISIS are funded by the US, i'm say that their big break was the arming of the FSA and they seized upon that to kick them off. They are obviously self sufficient now that they can punt cheap oil into turkey, the training was probably the most important part(weaponary is dispossible to a degree i would imagine, so there will be varying on going sources.)
Point is we can waffle on about IS all we like but they are a very small cog(the bad guy cog) in a big **** off business. It's much larger than a small part of the middle east.
Until we recognise who the real terrorists are(the arms manufacturers, sellers and ditributors etc) and figure out a way to deal with them, they will continue dubious practices that see's parts of the world destoyed in the name of profit.
And as I say it's not just americans or british, it's good business if you can get it. It's endemic and real. It's the worst form of terrorism the world faces today and has faced for a long time.
One example of non british/america interests.
http://www.ibtimes.com/turkey-boosting-weapons-exports-focus-africa-heres-who-benefits-1649300
There are plenty of people feeding off conflict, the ukraine is another nice wee side line.
the problems we're seeing are almost entirely down to three root causes:
1. An expansionist Iranian state that is fighting and funding proxy wars in other countries.
2. Salafist / wahhabi ideology has now reached a point of mass acceptance after 3 decades of funding of propaganda, imams and other materials by the Saudi state. It's coincidence that concerns were raised in the UK 10 years ago about young people receiving religious instruction with materials that stated that killing gays / jews / kuffir is acceptable and the many tens of thousands of british citizens who not only believe this but are increasingly willing to act on it.
3. An ongoing failure to connect the dots and see the real picture which is that any further delay in tackling the ideology head on will simply allow matters to deteriorate even more quickly.
just5minutes - Member
the problems we're seeing are almost entirely down to three root causes:1. An expansionist Iranian state
How is the iranian state expansionist? Seems to me like their actions are more about fending the wolves from the door than expansionism..
points 2 and 3 are just more religious waffle tbh.
the problems we're seeing are almost entirely down to three root causes:An expansionist Iranian state that is fighting and funding proxy wars in other countries.
Perhaps you are unaware that Iran is totally opposed to ISIS and that Iran has not expanded at all since its borders were last drawn up by the British.
I think you need reevaluate the situation perhaps apply a little blame for the problem with ISIS to a country 6,000 miles away which likes to fight and fund proxy wars in other countries.
this is worth watching
Ordo Ab Chao
Very good gonzy, ta.
agreedVery good gonzy, ta.
Nobody mentioned Bitter Lake yet? Maybe not a definitive background on ISIS, but well worth watching.